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Maou Gakuin Downgrades are Back Again (For the Second Time)

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Deagonx said:
The line between one's "soul" and "mind" is fuzzy and flexible depending on the verse/religion/context. Generally, the mind can be a function/part/aspect of the physical body. Sometimes it is essentially synonymous with one's soul. The important part is that the individual doesn't clearly remain as a ghost/disembodied ethereal brain/et cetera.
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Only if is explicitly said to be such. Otherwise they're separate. Easy as that.
Deagonx said:
I cannot speak to those decisions, because I didn't participate in those threads and I'm not familiar with those verses. This is just my assessment. Whoever made that assessment in those verses might feel differently than me.
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TLDR you don't care and you just ignore that to support the MG verse. Got it.
 
Deagonx said:
Here cause of the RVR.

As for the Body/mind/soul thing, I am inclined to agree that if "body and soul" are confirmed to be destroyed, that is sufficient for mid-godly. I don't think we need evidence that additionally specifies the mind, and in-fact I think the inverse is a better approach: Unless there is specific evidence that the mind remains/is distinct from the soul, the inclusion of "body and soul" should be generally interpreted as the full intention of Mid-Godly Regeneration.
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Statement clearly mentioned as ONLY Source character can use ingal and sylica spells. If the spells needed mind to be used then Author should have mentioned until the spirit and Source remains ingal can be used.

Nowhere it stated you need mind /Psych/Spirit to use spells.
 
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EldemadeDityjon said:

Source exists deeper than Body , Soul and Spirit


Character Can just use Ingall with ONLY SOURCES. I don't know why OP nitpicking things


Anyway here is the Oxford Dictionary for OP to understand spirit can mean mind also.

Statement clearly mentioned as ONLY Source character can use ingal and sylica spells. If the spells needed mind to be used then Author should have mentioned until the spirit and Source remains ingal can be used.

Nowhere it stated you need mind /Psych/Spirit to use spells.
Click to expand...
StrymULTRA said:
Am I wrong though? Make a CRT for these verses then if you think that you're right.
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Can you show me where in MG scans it stated you need mind to use Ingall?

Is it that much hard to understand author states ONLY source is enough to use the spell ?
 
TheGreatJedi13 said:
Bro your was because the soul wasn't erased but was simply disembodied.
How is that even the same here where one can easily erase their soul as a whole but not the concept
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The entire basis was Frisk being able to regen both SOUL and Body through DETERMINATION if they cannot use LOAD back after their death, as SAVE and LOAD was shown to be independent from SOUL + Body destruction, so refusing to die should regen both of them as well.
 
StrymULTRA said:
The entire basis was Frisk being able to regen both SOUL and Body through DETERMINATION if they cannot use LOAD back after their death, as SAVE and LOAD was shown to be independent from SOUL + Body destruction, so refusing to die should regen both of them as well.
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You got a thread ban for 24 hours by @Deagonx

If you continue posting, you will be reported once again.
 
As for the remaining parts of the post:

Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Information Manipulation (Type 2)

The basis for this is that magical formulae are used to determine the properties of a spell. That's it. This is nowhere near enough for type 2 info hax; It is the equivalent of saying that a recipe is type 2 info, just because changing it changes the kind of food you make.
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I think this section of the info manip is crucial:

These manipulation can come on many levels. For some it might just be the mechanism behind mundane magical abilities, while others can rewrite information to change reality, causality or the laws of nature.

I think what is described in the scans is enough to justify this.

Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Limited Invulnerability

This stems from the claim that magic barriers are unaffected by physical attacks. Except, that's just how barriers work; They deflect attacks and prevent the user from harm, which isn't invulnerability in the slightest. In fact, Anos goes on to say he could break the barrier with his bare hands, which obviously falls under the category of physical attacks.
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I can't view the scan at that link, but I think if magic barriers are indeed immune to physical attacks, that would grant Limited Invulnerability. However, can you post the scan of this "bare hands" statement? If he really can do that, it would suggest to me that barriers aren't truly immune, but I'm on the fence about it. Anos makes a lot of wild statements and also tends to circumvent the rules of how things work. The phrase "with my bare hands" can also be used as a metaphor for ease, so it might be important to see what the actual translation is, because I doubt the idiom exists in the original text.

Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
This is because Venuzdonoa can overpower Jerga's resistance to holy attacks. Except... this is literally just layered hax. We never assume that ignoring someone's resistance is resistance neg, because assuming the hax are just more powerful is a lot less of a reach.
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I'm a bit confused. He says that the sword only damages demons, but it damages him. I agree that this isn't resistance negation, because from what I'm reading it isn't that he had a unique resistance to the sword, but because the sword was made in such a way that it was limited in who it could damage. So it's not that it wouldn't damage Jerga because he can resist holy attacks, but that the weapon shouldn't have been able to damage non-demons at all. I'm missing the context, but what does this have to do with Venuzdonoa?

We should clear that up, but otherwise I agree, this isn't resistance negation.

Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Immortality Negation

Venuzdonoa has this because it can ignore the regeneration of gods, which can regenerate from source destruction. The issue is... none of this implies type 4 or 8. It's only negating HGR, which is fine to stay, but there's nothing indicating it's outright ignoring their reliant immortality (which is based on sources, anyways). Type 3 negation is fine as well, though it should probably go since it's just redundant with HGR negation.
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This seems correct.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Resistance to Fear Manipulation

This is from Anos not being affected by Ivis' aura, which caused people to tremble in fear. The reason for that fear, however, is that Ivis was far stronger than anyone else in the room ("...The overwhelming difference in power between him and the students had them cowering in fright"). So, this fear manipulation only works against those weaker than the user, which of course would not extend to Anos.
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I agree, it appears that there is no fear manipulation at work, just a generic "this persons power is noticeable and scary" which is pretty common.

Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Resistance to Attack Reflection

This is from Anos entering a city protected by anti-demon wards, which annihiliates demons and bombards them with spellfire. It is never stated to reflect attacks, and the scan never even suggests that Anos directly attacked it to begin with, so I'm really confused where attack reflection comes into play. I'm... not entirely sure what this would be, but resistance to attack reflection definitely ain't it.
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Agreed.

Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
The reasoning here is a bit different this time. Essentially, the idea here is that Evansmana, a sword specifically designed to kill Anos, could not kill him (because killing him is not enough to make him die). There are... two problems with this. First is that the mechanic of Evansmana is that it pierces the target's source, thereby preventing them from reincarnating. This is because anyone can be resurrected from their source so long as it remains intact, granting them type 4 & 8 immortality. The issue is that this isn't immortality negation, it's just destroying what someone relies on for their immortality; A D&D adventurer destroying a lich's phylactery is not "negating" its immortality, because losing your immortality after the destruction of the thing you rely on is just an inherent weakness of type 8.
Click to expand...
This is reasonable.

Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
At the very least, he should resist regen negation, right? Well no, because of this scene. Anos could only regenerate from Evansmana by sending source regenerating magic into the future, which means he COULDN'T have just regenerated normally; If he could just shrug off Evansmana's effects, he wouldn't need to play 4D chess with time magic to survive. Basically it goes like this: Evansmana destroys Anos' source --> Before this happens, Anos uses Rivide to send Argonemt into the future --> Argonemt triggers after Anos' source is destroyed --> Anos' source is rewound to before it was ever attacked, which implies he would have permanently died had he let the attack land, and also logically means the regen negation never triggered (since his source was reverted to a state prior to it being attacked).
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I agree.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Pointing out something that was rejected for other verses despite the same basis being involved for the feat is not derailing
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Yes it is. At best, feel free to reach out to the staff who felt that way so that they can pitch in here, but how that thread went has nothing to do with this, and we should focus on the information provided in this thread.
 
Deagonx said:
Yes it is. At best, feel free to reach out to the staff who felt that way so that they can pitch in here, but how that thread went has nothing to do with this, and we should focus on the information provided in this thread.
Click to expand...
I already called @Mr._Bambu given he was the one being the most vocal in the Undertale CRT.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Pointing out something that was rejected for other verses despite the same basis being involved for the feat is not derailing. Your preferred verses is not above other my dear.

Nice excuse
Click to expand...
Instead of ducking Answer the Question.
EldemadeDityjon said:
Can you show me where in MG scans it stated you need mind to use Ingall?

Is it that much hard to understand author states ONLY source is enough to use the spell ?
Click to expand...
EldemadeDityjon said:

Source exists deeper than Body , Soul and Spirit


Character Can just use Ingall with ONLY SOURCES. I don't know why OP nitpicking things


Anyway here is the Oxford Dictionary for OP to understand spirit can mean mind also.

Statement clearly mentioned as ONLY Source character can use ingal and sylica spells. If the spells needed mind to be used then Author should have mentioned until the spirit and Source remains ingal can be used.

Nowhere it stated you need mind /Psych/Spirit to use spells.
Click to expand...
 
StrymULTRA said:
Pointing out something that was rejected for other verses despite the same basis being involved for the feat is not derailing. Your preferred verses is not above other my dear.
Click to expand...
It is derailment, in matter of fact, the most common throw in this community is when you involve other verses as an argument.

So stop with undertale bs because it has completely different verse mechanics and setting and move on.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Or just this if you want to be faster

Click to expand...
And that's where you are wrong about undertale and MGK being the same.

For undertale, you're only told he's regenerating soul and body. it doesn't say how the regeneration works or what they're using to regenerate.

In MGK, it's explicitly said they're regenerating from their concept. Their concept is independent of the mind, body & soul to the extent that it can think for itself, possess memories. Basically, the source is it's own mind separate from the conventional mind.
Now people who have mastered magic can restore themselves from their source and as long as the source remains, they can be resurrected.

Both cases are nowhere near being similar. Yours lacks conclusive evidence, ours is blatantly portrayed.
 
ImmortalDread said:
It is derailment, in matter of fact, the most common throw in this community is when you involve other verses as an argument.
Click to expand...
Most common does not mean it is wrong.
ImmortalDread said:
So stop with undertale bs because it has completely different verse mechanics and setting and move on.
Click to expand...
I am talking in general about destruction of soul + body = Mid Godly here.
Tatsumi504 said:
In MGK, it's explicitly said they're regenerating from their concept. Their concept is independent of the mind, body & soul to the extent that it can think for itself, possess memories. Basically, the source is it's own mind separate from the conventional mind.
Now people who have mastered magic can restore themselves from their source and as long as the source remains, they can be resurrected.
Click to expand...
Now this is better.
 
Deagonx said:
Snip
Click to expand...
these were the counter for the arguments. For resistance negation
Dereck03 said:
Venuzdonoa simply by being present made Evansmana able to affect Jerga who was immune to holy attacks. Venuzdonoa didn't attack or use any Hax just did the feat and it's "Negatin Jerga's Inmmunity". We have more Resistance negation feats, but they are still way ahead of the current TL
Click to expand...
Fear manip
Tatsumi504 said:
It's not because of power, it's because of the magic he was emitting and it happens to those with low magic resistance
Click to expand...
 
As I said before, I can respond further later since I'm at work rn. But for the time being, we should probably focus on whether or not the source stuff is actually regen or just resurrection, and the potency can be discussed later.
 
Anyway as i said before.
My thoughts remained the same for Anos 4D chess
Anos himself said he regenerated in time

So that alone says that him rewinding time as if the attack never hit is still a form of regeneration by returning him to a state before he was stabbed regenerating any damage in the process.

That is still a form of regeneration.

Since you used whataboutism im gonna do it as well for a little tomfoolery

Example from Accelworld one of the abilities of the female cast is to reverse time thus healing someone to a state before they were damaged.

That is still a form of regeneration.

Regeneration negation basically prevents even such thing from happening at also prevent reincarnation or any form a regeneration can be done because the thing is damaged and destroyed thus is regenerated.
Click to expand...
 
Deagonx said:
However, can you post the scan of this "bare hands" statement? If he really can do that, it would suggest to me that barriers aren't truly immune,
Click to expand...

There's no contradiction. The common factor is that the weapon has zero magic power of it's own while Anos hand does. The problem was simply circumvented by actually supplying the weapon with his own magic power instead
Deagonx said:
I'm a bit confused. He says that the sword only damages demons, but it damages him. I agree that this isn't resistance negation, because from what I'm reading it isn't that he had a unique resistance to the sword, but because the sword was made in such a way that it was limited in who it could damage. So it's not that it wouldn't damage Jerga because he can resist holy attacks, but that the weapon shouldn't have been able to damage non-demons at all. I'm missing the context, but
Click to expand...
The context is that truly holy beings (holy existences) cannot be harmed by something holy.
Basically in-verse, Holy existences are outright immune to true holy power. It's not about only being limited to demons because it can still harm other races like humans.
Anos then summoned Venuzdonoa and destroyed the reason of Jerga being something truly holy allowing the Evansmana to then harm him. Basically it destroyed the reason that "True Holy beings cannot be harmed by something equally holy" thus bypassing the immunity.
Deagonx said:
I agree, it appears that there is no fear manipulation at work, just a generic "this persons power is noticeable and scary" which is pretty common.
Click to expand...
It's not that at all. Anos already denied that notion when he stated it wasn't because of Ivis status. He says it's because of the magic he emits is so overwhelming large compared to theirs that it induces fear.
They're not scared because his powerful, they feel fear because his magic power makes them feel it.
Anos goes on to say that in his case they wouldn't be able to a sense his magic power at all, they will be completely numb to it as a natural survival instinct caus if they sense it, they will involuntarily die. He goes on to say it's a phenomenon found in those with low resistance to magic. Anos also easily fear haxes an entire country of humans because humans generally have low magic resistance.

Deagonx said:
Agreed.
Click to expand...
Resisting something that repels your power will be what then?
Deagonx said:
This is reasonable.
Click to expand...
It isn't when you consider what he said is outrightly wrong
On the contrary, you just clear proved you don't.

It doesn't work by rewinding time, Agronemt is simply magic that regenerates the source, pure and simple, no time shenanigans needed. On Nosgalia it regenerated the source, when Girisilis uses it, it regenerates the destroyed source, when Anos used it on Aeges after graham erased him, it regenerated his source all without manipulating time.

The part about time travel is only when you are using it on yourself. When a persons source is destroyed, their magic ends. You can't cast magic without a source and your magic cannot linger after your source is destroyed. Revide is simply used to send the spell Agronemt into the future before the source is destroyed and have the spell regenerate it there. It's not used to circumvent regen negation like you are claiming.
Click to expand...
The sword is made specifically to prevent him from resurrecting, regenerating, reviving through every means and yes, there's knowledge of magic that can regenerate the source after it has been destroyed.
 
i'm still confuse that, how in the world when you get destroyed to the point only your concept remain yet you still need to prove that a "mind" also get destroyed for mid-godly, that logic is equivalent of saying mind is as fundamental as concept/info/etc...., thus contradicting the entire regeneration hierarchy from Mid-Godly to High-Godly
 
Tatsumi504 said:
There's no contradiction. The common factor is that the weapon has zero magic power of it's own while Anos hand does. The problem was simply circumvented by actually supplying the weapon with his own magic power instead
Click to expand...
I am inclined to agree. It appears "Adesin" is what imbues a weapon with a casters magic power, and since it was noted that a sword attack was necessary, I think your interpretation seems best. I don't think that scan is enough to overturn the concrete information that barriers are immune to purely physical attacks.

Tatsumi504 said:
The context is that truly holy beings (holy existences) cannot be harmed by something holy.
Basically in-verse, Holy existences are outright immune to true holy power. It's not about only being limited to demons because it can still harm other races like humans.
Anos then summoned Venuzdonoa and destroyed the reason of Jerga being something truly holy allowing the Evansmana to then harm him. Basically it destroyed the reason that "True Holy beings cannot be harmed by something equally holy" thus bypassing the immunity.
Click to expand...
I would need to see the scans entailing this. The only scan I've seen suggests that Evansmana is only capable of damaging demons, not anything about Jerga being holy, or holy things not being able to damage holy things, or that Venuzdonoa did something to change that.

Tatsumi504 said:
They're not scared because his powerful, they feel fear because his magic power makes them feel it.
Click to expand...
Yes, but the explicit reasoning for this is said to be the "overwhelming difference in power between them." It's not a fear-inducing spell or power. People just seem to experience fear in the presence of a being that is magically much more powerful than them, because they lack the magical resistance to not feel overwhelmed by the presence.

I'm reminded of the scene in Overlord where a girl who can see magical power is confused that Ainz doesn't appear to have any. Then Ainz takes off the ring he has that suppresses it and the girl gets so scared she vomits, because she can now see how unbelievably powerful he is. I wouldn't consider this fear manipulation on part of Ainz. For the same reason, I don't consider every character in MG as having "Fear manip" because they can intimidate others by virtue of being way more powerful and other people being scared of that.

Tatsumi504 said:
Resisting something that repels your power will be what then?
Click to expand...
Perhaps nothing, it may just not have been a powerful enough ward. Like a "flame barrier" that gets overcome by extremely powerful flames.

Tatsumi504 said:
It isn't when you consider what he said is outrightly wrong
Click to expand...
Should I just take your word for it or are you going to explain?
 
Deagonx said:
Snip.
Click to expand...
You cannot say, "The standards says this but I disagree with the standard so count my votes even though they are clearly against the standard" that does not make sense

the requirement is , body, soul and mind.
the key point is "and", it is not "or", but "and" meaning "inclusive"
so your votes based on your personal preference that it should be either soul or mind is invalid, if you feel that way make a CRT.
 
PrinceofPein said:
You cannot say, "The standards says this but I disagree so count my votes" that does not make sense

the requirement is , body, soul and mind.
the key point is "and", it is not "or", but "and" meaning "inclusive"
so your votes based on your personal preference that it should be either soul or mind is invalid, if you feel that way make a CRT.
Click to expand...
I don't see it that way. I don't think that is the best interpretation of the standard, and while perhaps the phrasing could be improved to make this more concrete, I think generally we shouldn't try to weaponize semantics in that manner when the intent is clear, because the Low-Godly requirement very clearly elaborates that a disembodied consciousness of some sort is the point of regeneration, and mid-godly is intended to go beyond that. In that sense "mind and soul" are both referring to this general overarching concept of a disembodied self that must also be destroyed, unlike Low-Godly where it can still exist.

So with that said, unless the verse specifically establishes that they are separate things, or without concrete evidence of the mind persisting despite the destruction of soul and body, I don't see this as an obstacle and I don't see that as violating the existing standard.
 
Deagonx said:
I don't see it that way. I don't think that is the best interpretation of the standard, and while perhaps the phrasing could be improved to make this more concrete, I think generally we shouldn't try to weaponize semantics in that manner when the intent is clear, because the Low-Godly requirement very clearly elaborates that a disembodied consciousness of some sort is the point of regeneration, and mid-godly is intended to go beyond that. In that sense "mind and soul" are both referring to this general overarching concept of a disembodied self that must also be destroyed, unlike Low-Godly where it can still exist.

So with that said, unless the verse specifically establishes that they are separate things, or without concrete evidence of the mind persisting despite the destruction of soul and body, I don't see this as an obstacle and I don't see that as violating the existing standard.
Click to expand...
I actually did not read the OP, the RvR brought me here and I saw your post, and just think it is wrong.
And it is not semantics
Low godly is regeneration from the mind, soul or some other non-physical aspect of the character.
To explain further, you have your body and soul destroyed/damaged but you regenerated due to your consciousness or mind, that is low godly.

Mid Godly is regeneration from having everything erased except fundamental aspects of one's existence e.g. concepts, narratives e.t.c. so regenerating from just concepts and the likes will be MGR

High Godly is regenerating even when an aspect of one's fundamentals has been destroyed or erased.

In summary, low godly is regenerating from non-physical aspects either the soul or mind, mid godly is regenerating after losing all non-physical aspects and left with just fundamental aspects, High Godly is regenerating from even destruction of fundamental aspects of one's existence

So it is not semantics but pretty clear cut by the books, you just misunderstood it.
So unless the thing they are claiming is that he is regenerating from a fundamental aspect of existence, then it is mid-godly otherwise it is low-godly
 
PrinceofPein said:
To explain further, you have your body and soul destroyed/damaged but you regenerated due to your consciousness or mind, that is low godly.
Click to expand...
I'm aware, that's why I said if there is specific information that establishes a mind that remains independent of the destroyed soul, it should remain LG, but given the fuzzy relationship between these concepts, in the absence of a concrete reference to a "mind" independent of the soul, clear evidence of both body and soul being destroyed is sufficient.

PrinceofPein said:
So it is not semantics but pretty clear cut by the books, you just misunderstood it.
Click to expand...
I disagree, but we likely will not convince each other.

PrinceofPein said:
So unless the thing they are claiming is that he is regenerating from a fundamental aspect of existence, then it is mid-godly otherwise it is low-godly
Click to expand...
He is regenerating from his "source" which is something beyond the body, soul, and spirit. I think that qualifies.
 
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