Manga Goku and Vegeta base form, ssj form upgrade

[Spinoirr]

We are still talking about this

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[SomebodyData]

If you bring up a rebuttal, we could discuss it Spinoirr

 

[Spinoirr]

The fact that Vegeta surpassed ssj rosè in just ssj god when before he was getting beat down in ssj blue by black in just ssj and the fact ssj rosè is what happens when a true god goes beyond ssj god (his version of ssj blue) should be more than enough to make their base forms be upgraded (post ROSAT)

 

[Spinoirr]

Also the fact they have god ki in base form and live attacks from at least multi-galaxy level characters despite those characters holding back to torture them. Also why use ssj If you are fighting multi-galaxy level fighters if you in ssj are only solar system level

 

[SomebodyData]

Your scaling argument only proves Vegeta got 10x stronger: SSJG Vegeta (Who btw is still using SSJB in short-bursts, meaning his base probably got less than a 10x boost as SSJG isn't enough) > SSJR Black > SSJ2 Black > SSJB Vegeta (Pre-Zenkai).

Your SSJR = SSJB argument isn't confirmed, nor is it accurate: SSJR lacks the stamina issues of Blue; SSJB at full power (CSSJB) is even stronger than Fusion Zamasu despite having SSJR Black as a fuse material. Thus, SSJR =/= SSJB.

They can sense God Ki in base =/= They have God Ki in base. Even if it did, God Ki in base =/= 3-B power in base, as we see individuals with God Ki (Like the Kais) are far below even pre-Super SSJ Goku and Vegeta.

Why use SSJ at all? It's pretty clear it's to have the transformations appear briefly rather than scaling, like how Goku exhausted all of his forms against Jiren even though he knew none of them would work.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Your SSJR = SSJB argument isn't confirmed, nor is it accurate: SSJR lacks the stamina issues of Blue; SSJB at full power (CSSJB) is even stronger than Fusion Zamasu despite having SSJR Black as a fuse material. Thus, SSJR =/= SSJB.

He never said it's the same form though. This however equivalent to Super Saiyan Blue as this is what happens when a true deity goes into Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, as shown in this scan

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Your scaling argument only proves Vegeta got 10x stronger: SSJG Vegeta (Who btw is still using SSJB in short-bursts, meaning his base probably got less than a 10x boost as SSJG isn't enough) > SSJR Black > SSJ2 Black > SSJB Vegeta (Pre-Zenkai).

Your SSJR = SSJB argument isn't confirmed, nor is it accurate: SSJR lacks the stamina issues of Blue; SSJB at full power (CSSJB) is even stronger than Fusion Zamasu despite having SSJR Black as a fuse material. Thus, SSJR =/= SSJB.

They can sense God Ki in base =/= They have God Ki in base. Even if it did, God Ki in base =/= 3-B power in base, as we see individuals with God Ki (Like the Kais) are far below even pre-Super SSJ Goku and Vegeta.

Why use SSJ at all? It's pretty clear it's to have the transformations appear briefly rather than scaling, like how Goku exhausted all of his forms against Jiren even though he knew none of them would work.

SSR is the same as SSB, that was already confirmed in the manga, the only difference is that is what a diety turns into instead of blue. Black going from SSJ to SSR is a SSG level amp which is enough to shoot him to multi-galaxy level by itself, so vegeta getting clapped by SSJ then reaching SSR level of power is a clear SSG level amp, this is such a straight forward scale.

 

[SomebodyData]

Spinoirr Wouldn't that be worse? Being the equivalent doesn't mean they have the same multiplier, just that it's the deity's version.

Fluffy Not according to Spinoirr. That point aside, I already showed the differences SSJR has from Blue, and how the scaling is only a 10x gap, not a SSJG one.

Also Black's SSJ2 was already slapping SSJB Vegeta, so it's pretty clearly not a SSJG level boost. Especially when we see later that Goku having a 10x boost with CSSJ is enough to cover the gains Black had as well.

 

[Spinoirr]

No black was in ssj, not ssj2

 

[SomebodyData]

Weird, there's the SSJ2 lightning and everything. But it doesn't really change the argument.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Spinoirr Wouldn't that be worse? Being the equivalent doesn't mean they have the same multiplier, just that it's the deity's version.

Fluffy Not according to Spinoirr. That point aside, I already showed the differences SSJR has from Blue, and how the scaling is only a 10x gap, not a SSJG one.

Also Black's SSJ2 was already slapping SSJB Vegeta, so it's pretty clearly not a SSJG level boost. Especially when we see later that Goku having a 10x boost with CSSJ is enough to cover the gains Black had as well.

That is because their base forms are obviously not equal. For example: Super Saiyan Vegeta is stronger than Super Saiyan Cabba, even though both use the same form, SSJ

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Spinoirr Wouldn't that be worse? Being the equivalent doesn't mean they have the same multiplier, just that it's the deity's version.

Yes it does, this is literally the same as Blue as both being Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan forms, but Blue is used when a mortal reaches that form, and Rose is used when an actual deity uses it, hence the differences in some properties of the form

Nothing suggest that the multiplier is not the same. The simpler assumption is that because the forms are equivalent and both are Super Saiyan God combined with SSJ, the multiplier should also not change between them. Claiming otherwise would require further proof by your side

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Why use SSJ at all? It's pretty clear it's to have the transformations appear briefly rather than scaling, like how Goku exhausted all of his forms against Jiren even though he knew none of them would work.

False equivalence. Goku was testing Jiren's power in that time and wanted to gauge how strong he is. This is why he went through his Super Saiyan forms, and crancked it up to Blue when he realized Jiren would be too strong. Also in the ToP, reserving stamina is essential, so Goku would not go to SSB straight away

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Your scaling argument only proves Vegeta got 10x stronger: SSJG Vegeta (Who btw is still using SSJB in short-bursts, meaning his base probably got less than a 10x boost as SSJG isn't enough) > SSJR Black > SSJ2 Black > SSJB Vegeta (Pre-Zenkai).

Vegeta only used the God-to Blue switch because he needed to preserve his stamina against Black, as he did not mastered SSB at this point, so using Blue for a long time would result in stamina drops and inability to sustain the form, which could be really bad against someone like Black

However, the fact that he doesn't even need to use Blue all the time to keep up with Rose Black, is a clear sign that Vegeta got a God level boost, as:

SSB Vegeta = 50 * SSG Vegeta >= SSR Goku Black = 50 * SSG Black (as while he never used the form, Super Saiyan Rose was also stated to be a SSGSS form, so it applies like with SSB) >>>>>>>>>> SSJ Black >>> SSB Vegeta >>>>>>>>>>> BoG SSG Goku = 3-B

As Vegeta with an equivalent form to Black's SSR is far stronger than him, and even by your scaling SSG Vegeta is on similar level to SSR Black, it's safe to assume that SSG Vegeta would be FAR stronger than SSG Black (although he never used the form), and thus, that Vegeta's SSJ form would be far stronger than Black's SSJ form, which would cleanly give him 3-B

Further more, due to SSJ Black >>> SSB Vegeta before the training, it can be safely assumed that Base Black >>> SSG Vegeta before the training, who was already much stronger than SSG Goku from BoG

That would mean that even Base Vegeta would still scale to 3-B, no doubts

EDIT: Oh and even with you go and say "But manga SSB is only 10 times SSG", it wouldn't change anything, as it'll just replace the 50s with 10s

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Vegeta only used the God-to Blue switch because he needed to preserve his stamina against Black, as he did not mastered SSB at this point, so using Blue for a long time would result in stamina drops and inability to sustain the form, which could be really bad against someone like Black

However, the fact that he doesn't even need to use Blue all the time to keep up with Rose Black, is a clear sign that Vegeta got a God level boost, as:

SSB Vegeta = 50 * SSG Vegeta >= SSR Goku Black = 50 * SSG Black (as while he never used the form, Super Saiyan Rose was also stated to be a SSGSS form, so it applies like with SSB) >>>>>>>>>> SSJ Black >>> SSB Vegeta >>>>>>>>>>> BoG SSG Goku = 3-B

As Vegeta with an equivalent form to Black's SSR is far stronger than him, and even by your scaling SSG Vegeta is on similar level to SSR Black, it's safe to assume that SSG Vegeta would be FAR stronger than SSG Black (although he never used the form), and thus, that Vegeta's SSJ form would be far stronger than Black's SSJ form, which would cleanly give him 3-B

Further more, due to SSJ Black >>> SSB Vegeta before the training, it can be safely assumed that Base Black >>> SSG Vegeta before the training, who was already much stronger than SSG Goku from BoG

That would mean that even Base Vegeta would still scale to 3-B, no doubts

Facts, I was going to respond, but I don't even need to.

 

[Spinoirr]

Thanks for explaining it gilad

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Thanks for explaining it gilad

No problem

 

[SomebodyData]

Vegeta only used the God-to Blue switch because he needed to preserve his stamina against Black, as he did not mastered SSB at this point, so using Blue for a long time would result in stamina drops and inability to sustain the form, which could be really bad against someone like Black.

However, the fact that he doesn't even need to use Blue all the time to keep up with Rose Black, is a clear sign that Vegeta got a God level boost, as:

SSB Vegeta = 50 * SSG Vegeta >= SSR Goku Black = 50 * SSG Black (as while he never used the form, Super Saiyan Rose was also stated to be a SSGSS form, so it applies like with SSB) >>>>>>>>>> SSJ Black >>> SSB Vegeta >>>>>>>>>>> BoG SSG Goku = 3-B

As Vegeta with an equivalent form to Black's SSR is far stronger than him, and even by your scaling SSG Vegeta is on similar level to SSR Black, it's safe to assume that SSG Vegeta would be FAR stronger than SSG Black (although he never used the form), and thus, that Vegeta's SSJ form would be far stronger than Black's SSJ form, which would cleanly give him 3-B

Further more, due to SSJ Black >>> SSB Vegeta before the training, it can be safely assumed that Base Black >>> SSG Vegeta before the training, who was already much stronger than SSG Goku from BoG

That would mean that even Base Vegeta would still scale to 3-B, no doubts

EDIT: Oh and even with you go and say "But manga SSB is only 10 times SSG", it wouldn't change anything, as it'll just replace the 50s with 10s

Again, like I mentioned it only works assuming SSJR is the exact same as SSJB. It's not, aside from the obvious color change we know it works differently. SSJR lacks any of the stamina issues for example, and CSSJB (Which is just SSJB at full power) is confirmed stronger than even SSJR with fusion.

SSJB Vegeta (Post-HBTC)= 10 * SSG Vegeta (Post-HBTC) >= SSR Goku Black >> SSJ Black (Post-Zenkai) > SSB Vegeta >>> BoG SSG Goku = 3-B.

This is further backed up by Goku's fight with Fused Zamas, where SSJB at full power is capable of fighting a fused SSJR Black.

CSSJB Goku >= Fusion Zamasu >>> Vegeta SSJG (Post HBTC) >= SSJR Black > SSJG Goku ; and remember CSSJB Goku= 10x or 50x SSJG Goku.

So the strength both Black and Vegeta got wasn't any where near that of a SSJG multiplier.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Again, like I mentioned it only works assuming SSJR is the exact same as SSJB. It's not, aside from the obvious color change we know it works differently. SSJR lacks any of the stamina issues for example, and CSSJB (Which is just SSJB at full power) is confirmed stronger than even SSJR with fusion.

Again, you fail to understand what I said. SSJR is NOT the same form as SSB, but an EQUIVALENT form to it, as both are Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan forms.
Also Goku wasn't stronger than Fused Zamasu, but equal to him.

SSJR lacks any of the stamina issues for example, and CSSJB (Which is just SSJB at full power) is confirmed stronger than even SSJR with fusion.

Completed SSB keeps all the overflowing power of SSB within the body, allowing one to use much greater power than before. Besides, the reason why Fused Zamasu fought on equal terms with Goku is because Goku Black's Base form is pretty weak compared to Vegeta, allowing Vegeta to easily overpower him with the God-to-Blue switch, and added to the fact that Future Zamasu is very weak compared to the rest, and only survived to keep on fighting due to his immortality

While the multiplier for fusion is unknown, it was probably not that strong becasue of Future Zamasu's weak power, so even SSJR would not be enough to make the fusion strong. Either that, or that this is an example of PIS, as logically Fused Zamasu should far exceed SSB Goku, and was only treated as equal for the sake of plot

That said, Goku was also healed by Trunks before the battle against Fused Zamasu, so it's very likely he not only used a more powerful version of SSB, which was also described as vastly superior to Base SSB, but he also got a zenkai from the damage he suffered when Fused Zamasu was beating him down alongside Vegeta

SSJB Vegeta (Post-HBTC)= 10 * SSG Vegeta (Post-HBTC) >= SSR Goku Black >> SSJ Black (Post-Zenkai) > SSB Vegeta >>> BoG SSG Goku = 3-B.

It still won't change anything because:

SSB Vegeta (Post-HBTC) = 50 * SSG Vegeta >= SSR Black = 50 * SSG Black (as again, this was stated to be Super Saiyan God combined with SSJ) >>>>> SSJ Black >>> SSB Vegeta = 50 * SSG Vegeta >>>>>>> BoG SSG Goku = 3-B

As we know SSG Vegeta >>>>>> SSG Black, it would be safe to assume that SSJ Vegeta >>>>>> SSJ Black and that Base Vegeta >>>>>>> Base Black, and since prior to the training SSJ Black >>> SSB Vegeta, it should be safe to assume that Base Black >>>> SSG Vegeta

Regardless of that, Base Goku and Vegeta would still be 3-B no matter how you look at it

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

SSR literally being stated the combination of a SSJ + god ki (which is equivalent to SSG), the form having different attributes doesn't mean it's not a type of SSB.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

SSR literally being stated the combination of a SSJ + god ki (which is equivalent to SSG), the form having different attributes doesn't mean it's not a type of SSB.

It's not SSB, but both are types of SSGSS forms. I think you meant to say that

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

It's not SSB, but both are types of SSGSS forms. I think you meant to say that

Yes exactly that. SSG + SS.

 

[Antvasima]

@SomebodyData

So what should we do here then?

 

[AKM sama]

I think SomebodyData is making more sense.

 

[SomebodyData]

Again, you fail to understand what I said. SSJR is NOT the same form as SSB, but an EQUIVALENT form to it, as both are Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan forms.
Also Goku wasn't stronger than Fused Zamasu, but equal to him.

An equivalent that has different characteristics. Fused Zamas being slightly weaker or equal doesn't change much.

Completed SSB keeps all the overflowing power of SSB within the body, allowing one to use much greater power than before. Besides, the reason why Fused Zamasu fought on equal terms with Goku is because Goku Black's Base form is pretty weak compared to Vegeta, allowing Vegeta to easily overpower him with the God-to-Blue switch, and added to the fact that Future Zamasu is very weak compared to the rest, and only survived to keep on fighting due to his immortality

While the multiplier for fusion is unknown, it was probably not that strong becasue of Future Zamasu's weak power, so even SSJR would not be enough to make the fusion strong. Either that, or that this is an example of PIS, as logically Fused Zamasu should far exceed SSB Goku, and was only treated as equal for the sake of plot

Yeah, but said greater power is a 10x (or 50x jump). Not SSJG levels of a jump. None of the reasons you explained has anything to do with Goku fighting on par with Fused Zamas?

The point here is that SSJR with fusion is still not better than CSSJB, so yeah I agree. But the way you're phrasing it makes it sound like you're saying SSJR got nerfed or something by the fusion? You can replace Fusion Zamas with SSJR Black (Which is logically much lower on the scaling) and the example I'm giving would still work.

That said, Goku was also healed by Trunks before the battle against Fused Zamasu, so it's very likely he not only used a more powerful version of SSB, which was also described as vastly superior to Base SSB, but he also got a zenkai from the damage he suffered when Fused Zamasu was beating him down alongside Vegeta

It still won't change anything because:

SSB Vegeta (Post-HBTC) = 50 * SSG Vegeta >= SSR Black = 50 * SSG Black (as again, this was stated to be Super Saiyan God combined with SSJ) >>>>> SSJ Black >>> SSB Vegeta = 50 * SSG Vegeta >>>>>>> BoG SSG Goku = 3-B

As we know SSG Vegeta >>>>>> SSG Black, it would be safe to assume that SSJ Vegeta >>>>>> SSJ Black and that Base Vegeta >>>>>>> Base Black, and since prior to the training SSJ Black >>> SSB Vegeta, it should be safe to assume that Base Black >>>> SSG Vegeta

Regardless of that, Base Goku and Vegeta would still be 3-B no matter how you look at it

The manga outright states zenkais no longer work for Goku and Vegeta. So no, not to mention even in the panel where you guys get SSJR = SSJB, Vegeta is more concerned about the zenkais / healing Black can get rather than Black's current PL. Obviously, a part of it has to do with Vegeta's arrogance, but the fact that Goku agrees shows that SSJR Black was never SSJG multiplier levels of stronger than Vegeta.

Again only works assuming SSJR = SSJB's multiplier, without it the scaling is just:

CSSJB Goku = Fusion Zamasu >= SSB Vegeta (Post-HBTC) in short bursts = 10 * SSG Vegeta (Post-HBTC) >= SSR Black >> SSJ Black > SSB Vegeta (Although, according to the U6 statement is probably weaker than SSJG by this point in the fight) > SSJG Goku (Trunks arc).

With again the gap between SSJG Goku and CSSJB being explained as around or a little over 10x.

 

[SomebodyData]

Having different characteristics would include power, which is why I'm confused about why you guys acknowledge everything except power.

When I say SSJR =/= SSJB, I'm specifically talking about its characteristics. According to the manga, SSJR is just the deity's version of transcending SSJG; it's never stated to have the same multiplier. We already also saw how it's not the same multiplier thanks to the fight with Goku and Fused Zamas.

The best DB comparison I could give is how SSJFP is Broly's version of SSJ, or how Baby's various transformations are the equivalent of various SSJ transformations, but clearly not the same.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

The manga outright states zenkais no longer work for Goku and Vegeta. So no, not to mention even in the panel where you guys get SSJR = SSJB, Vegeta is more concerned about the zenkais / healing Black can get rather than Black's current PL. Obviously, a part of it has to do with Vegeta's arrogance, but the fact that Goku agrees shows that SSJR Black was never SSJG multiplier levels of stronger than Vegeta.

Once again, you are misinterpreting what I said. The difference between Vegeta and Goku Black's power with their forms was because Base Vegeta was much weaker than Base Black, and transformations can only do so much if the Base form was weaker

Yeah, but said greater power is a 10x (or 50x jump). Not SSJG levels of a jump. None of the reasons you explained has anything to do with Goku fighting on par with Fused Zamas?

Yes they are. I already explained that since Future Zamasu and Base Goku Black are so weak in comparison to Goku and Vegeta's Post-Training power that even when they fused, Fused Zamasu's base form was so weak as well, that even with SSJR, it was only enough to battle equally with CSSB Goku

The manga outright states zenkais no longer work for Goku and Vegeta. So no, not to mention even in the panel where you guys get SSJR = SSJB, Vegeta is more concerned about the zenkais / healing Black can get rather than Black's current PL. Obviously, a part of it has to do with Vegeta's arrogance, but the fact that Goku agrees shows that SSJR Black was never SSJG multiplier levels of stronger than Vegeta.

Stated where? I would like to see that scan if you don't mind, and besides, there are many instances later where Goku and Vegeta does indeed grow stronger after healing, such as in the Moro and Granolah Saga

When I say SSJR =/= SSJB, I'm specifically talking about its characteristics. According to the manga, SSJR is just the deity's version of transcending SSJG

The same can be said for SSB, as it's also just the mortal's version of transcending SSG. These forms are literally achieved in the same way

The point here is that SSJR with fusion is still not better than CSSJB, so yeah I agree. But the way you're phrasing it makes it sound like you're saying SSJR got nerfed or something by the fusion? You can replace Fusion Zamas with SSJR Black (Which is logically much lower on the scaling) and the example I'm giving would still work.

No, I'm not saying that it was nerfed. What I am saying is that Fused Zamasu's Base form is very weak too due to how weak Black and Zamasu are compared to Goku and Vegeta's new power, so the base form of the fusion is weak as well. And as I said, transformations will only do so much with a weak Base form

SSB Vegeta (Although, according to the U6 statement is probably weaker than SSJG by this point in the fight

How the hell would SSB be weaker than SSG???? Like wow

CSSJB Goku = Fusion Zamasu >= SSB Vegeta (Post-HBTC) in short bursts = 10 * SSG Vegeta (Post-HBTC) >= SSR Black >> SSJ Black > SSB Vegeta (Although, according to the U6 statement is probably weaker than SSJG by this point in the fight) > SSJG Goku (Trunks arc).

SSJR is >>> SSG, as the manga confirms that Super Saiyan Rose is a form transcending SSG, much like Blue, so regardless of any multipliers you get:

SSG Vegeta (Post-HBTC) >= SSR Black >> SSG Black >>> SSJ Black > SSB Vegeta

That would mean that after the training, SSG Vegeta >>> SSG Black, and therefore, we can assume that SSJ Vegeta >>> SSJ Black, and also that Base Vegeta >>> Base Black, and since SSJ Black was >>> SSB Vegeta Pre-HBTC, we can safely assume that Base Black >>> SSG Vegeta Pre-HBTC, who is in turn much stronger than BoG SSG Goku = 3-B

What do you know. Even with no multipliers my argument still stands

 

[Spinoirr]

Ssj blue was only weaker then ssj god just because transforming into blue more then once a day drains a lot of stamina.

Vegeta when he battled black for the frist time only used blue once in that day. So he wouldn't be weaker then ssj god

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think SD makes sense too.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we should preferably use SD's solutions to this then. I am just not sure what exactly that those solutions are.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Well, we should preferably use SD's solutions to this then. I am just not sure what exactly that those solutions are.

SD didn't answered the arguments based on what he/she said. I think it's the best that SD will go to address the point before concluding the thread

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[SomebodyData]

Once again, you are misinterpreting what I said. The difference between Vegeta and Goku Black's power with their forms was because Base Vegeta was much weaker than Base Black, and transformations can only do so much if the Base form was weaker.

No, I understand that. I'm just pointing out Vegeta's base power never grew by the level by SSJG multipliers to counter Black's SSJR transformation, by showing that the gap between SSJ and SSJR Black wasn't SSJG levels.

Yes they are. I already explained that since Future Zamasu and Base Goku Black are so weak in comparison to Goku and Vegeta's Post-Training power that even when they fused, Fused Zamasu's base form was so weak as well, that even with SSJR, it was only enough to battle equally with CSSB Goku

Goku's training was just mastering the Mafuba, there isn't a massive power jump there as you see to be implying. As far as the manga goes, Base Goku is only slightly stronger between stronger from the beginning of the arc to the end.

Stated where? I would like to see that scan if you don't mind, and besides, there are many instances later where Goku and Vegeta does indeed grow stronger after healing, such as in the Moro and Granolah Saga

Trunks states it after Vegeta failed to get a zenkai from his fight with Black, as shown by him fighting roughly on par with SSJ Black later.

The same can be said for SSB, as it's also just the mortal's version of transcending SSG. These forms are literally achieved in the same way

Yes? The point was to show they may have same way of achieving the transformations, and still retain different characteristics / power. That's my point.

No, I'm not saying that it was nerfed. What I am saying is that Fused Zamasu's Base form is very weak too due to how weak Black and Zamasu are compared to Goku and Vegeta's new power, so the base form of the fusion is weak as well. And as I said, transformations will only do so much with a weak Base form

The issue, again, is that Goku never got said power-up. The fact is that the 10x strength of an SSJB at full power is enough to close the scaling that you claim is an SSJG / trillions of times multiplier.

How the hell would SSB be weaker than SSG???? Like wow

SSJR is >>> SSG, as the manga confirms that Super Saiyan Rose is a form transcending SSG, much like Blue, so regardless of any multipliers you get:

SSG Vegeta (Post-HBTC) >= SSR Black >> SSG Black >>> SSJ Black > SSB Vegeta

That would mean that after the training, SSG Vegeta >>> SSG Black, and therefore, we can assume that SSJ Vegeta >>> SSJ Black, and also that Base Vegeta >>> Base Black, and since SSJ Black was >>> SSB Vegeta Pre-HBTC, we can safely assume that Base Black >>> SSG Vegeta Pre-HBTC, who is in turn much stronger than BoG SSG Goku = 3-B

What do you know. Even with no multipliers my argument still stands

Very dishonest interpretation of what was said here, by Whis no less.

Whis explained that the issue with SSJB is that it loses energy insanely fast. Hence why by Hit's battle with him, SSJB Vegeta isn't even at 10% power left and SSJG Goku is explicitly stated to be stronger. Also why Vegeta decided to go with SSJG against Black, only transforming for split seconds to save energy.

Of course, removing multipliers your argument still stands- that wasn't the primary issue. All you have to do is add Goku into the scaling and his confirmed 10x jump, and your argument completely collapses.

Complete SSJB Goku = Fused Zamasu >= SSJG Vegeta (Post-HTBC) / SSJB Vegeta for split seconds >= SSJR Black >(Unknown multiplier)> SSJ Black >= Vegeta SSJB (Tired) <= SSJG Goku

AKA

Complete SSJB Goku >(At least 10x with everyone else in here, except maybe SSJB Vegeta by the end of post-zenkai Black SSJR)> SSJG Goku

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Trunks states it after Vegeta failed to get a zenkai from his fight with Black, as shown by him fighting roughly on par with SSJ Black later.

Trunks only theorizes this, so it's not a proof that it doesn't work. Besides, the later arcs show several examples that zenkais still work for Goku and Vegeta. However zenkais can be inconsistent in potency so that might have lead to Trunks believing that it doesn't work, although it could just as well be a very small increase that was pretty irrelevant as the course wasn't change

The issue, again, is that Goku never got said power-up. The fact is that the 10x strength of an SSJB at full power is enough to close the scaling that you claim is an SSJG / trillions of times multiplier.

Nobody said trillions of times. The multiplier for SSG is unknown, and as we know, power level in Dragon Ball doesn't linearly increase with AP in some cases, as feats > power system (such as Ginyu with 120,000 PL being 5-B and Frieza with PL of 530,000 being High 5-A+ due to his feat).

Whis explained that the issue with SSJB is that it loses energy insanely fast. Hence why by Hit's battle with him, SSJB Vegeta isn't even at 10% power left and SSJG Goku is explicitly stated to be stronger. Also why Vegeta decided to go with SSJG against Black, only transforming for split seconds to save energy.

What Whis was saying that since Vegeta was extremely tired when battling Hit for the second time, he couldn't use the full power of Super Saiyan Blue, and ended up with less than 10% of his power according to him, which a healthy SSG Goku surpassed, as Goku didn't fight before in a form as straining as Blue in the tournament at the time.

Vegeta decided to go against Black with SSG because using SSB against him is way too risky, because of the stamina drain already explained above. Vegeta would tire easily fighting with just SSB, and Black could outlast him and then beat Vegeta despite him being stronger than him, much like how SSB Goku defeated Golden Frieza in the RoF movie.

This proves that: SSB (healthy) >>>> SSG (healthy) => SSB (heavily-drained). It definitely DOES NOT say that healthy SSB > SSG, otherwise the form would be absolutely pointless, and there would be no reason to use it at all instead of SSG (as according to your logic, SSG is both stronger than SSB, and has much better stamina consumption compared to Blue)

Of course, removing multipliers your argument still stands- that wasn't the primary issue. All you have to do is add Goku into the scaling and his confirmed 10x jump, and your argument completely collapses.

Complete SSJB Goku = Fused Zamasu >= SSJG Vegeta (Post-HTBC) / SSJB Vegeta for split seconds >= SSJR Black >(Unknown multiplier)> SSJ Black >= Vegeta SSJB (Tired) <= SSJG Goku

AKA

Complete SSJB Goku >(At least 10x with everyone else in here, except maybe SSJB Vegeta by the end of post-zenkai Black SSJR)> SSJG Goku

And here's your part where your argument collapse: You consistenly ignore my point about both Rose and SSG, and treat SSG as > SSB so you'd not have to deal with this part: As we know, SSR is a form that transcend SSG in power, much like how SSB transcends SSG as well, and therefore, it is stronger than SSG, and again, if Rose would not be stronger than SSG, then Black would have no reason to transform into Super Saiyan Rose, as SSG would always be the better option

That would mean, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that SSR Black > SSG Black.

That would mean that Vegeta's own SSG form Post-Training would be > SSG Black, as he was beating Rose Black with it. As the multiplier, whatever it is, between SSJ and SSG remain the same for both of them, we can safely say that SSJ Vegeta > SSJ Black > SSB Vegeta (Pre-HBTC) >>>>>> BoG SSG Goku = 3-B

Let me rephrase your chain:

SSJG Vegeta (Post-HTBC) / SSJB Vegeta for split seconds >= SSJR Black > SSG Black > (Unknown multiplier)> SSJ Black >= Vegeta SSJB (Tired) <= SSJG Goku

And again, there would be no reason to use SSB if SSG is stronger, as this would mean SSG would always be the better choice. Same goes for Rose, as Black would always prefer SSG if Rose was weaker than God as well, meaning both SSR and SSB > SSG

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I don't know how you could doubt Gilad Hyperstar's judgement here, his scaling works whether you accept SSR as a 50x on top of SSG/ SSR = SSB or not.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

SSR is stated to be stronger than SSG and crimson instead of blue, implying it's an SSB level form. SSG Vegeta, while using one hand, was also able to push back against SSR Goku Black, who was using 2 hands.
Keep in mind that not once did SSG Vegeta get blitzed or overpowered by SSR Black at all. If SSG Vegeta was inferior to SSR Black, Vegeta wouldn’t been screwed once switching to SSG as Black would’ve had the perfect opportunity to beat him.

In order for the God to Blue switch to work this instant SSG Vegeta would have to be >= SSR Black.

 

[SomebodyData]

SSR is stated to be stronger than SSG and crimson instead of blue, implying it's an SSB level form. SSG Vegeta, while using one hand, was also able to push back against SSR Goku Black, who was using 2 hands.
Keep in mind that not once did SSG Vegeta get blitzed or overpowered by SSR Black at all. If SSG Vegeta was inferior to SSR Black, Vegeta wouldn’t been screwed once switching to SSG as Black would’ve had the perfect opportunity to beat him.

In order for the God to Blue switch to work this instant SSG Vegeta would have to be >= SSR Black.

Goku immediately explains why this happens though, the very instant Vegeta fights Black he transforms. In that very scan, Goku also mentions this is why SSJG appears to be keeping up, when in reality he wouldn't be. Both Vegeta and Black confirm this.

It's a bit of Super's wonky logic, but it makes it pretty clear that SSJG Vegeta is not stronger with Black, just enough to keep pace with him when combined with the SSJB split-second transformations.

I don't know how you could doubt Gilad Hyperstar's judgement here, his scaling works whether you accept SSR as a 50x on top of SSG/ SSR = SSB or not.

Well, it needs one to pretend the CSSJB Goku vs Fused Zamas fight never happened. Or that Trunks was wrong. Or that a diety transcending SSJG means he unlocked SSJG (didn't happen) and transcended it, instead of Goku Black being stronger than SSJG = gets a new transformation because he's already a deity.

Trunks only theorizes this, so it's not a proof that it doesn't work. Besides, the later arcs show several examples that zenkais still work for Goku and Vegeta. However zenkais can be inconsistent in potency so that might have lead to Trunks believing that it doesn't work, although it could just as well be a very small increase that was pretty irrelevant as the course wasn't change

Why are you accepting Trunk's statement, but not Zama's, which is also speculation. Which unlike Trunks, who was immediately confirmed accurate or close to accurate when SSJB Vegeta still didn't get much if any stronger, was immediately shown wrong by CSSJB Goku and a stronger Vegeta.

Nobody said trillions of times. The multiplier for SSG is unknown, and as we know, power level in Dragon Ball doesn't linearly increase with AP in some cases, as feats > power system (such as Ginyu with 120,000 PL being 5-B and Frieza with PL of 530,000 being High 5-A+ due to his feat).

So then what's up with trying to upgrade them to 3-B, if you don't believe the power up was in the trillions?

What Whis was saying that since Vegeta was extremely tired when battling Hit for the second time, he couldn't use the full power of Super Saiyan Blue, and ended up with less than 10% of his power according to him, which a healthy SSG Goku surpassed, as Goku didn't fight before in a form as straining as Blue in the tournament at the time.

Vegeta decided to go against Black with SSG because using SSB against him is way too risky, because of the stamina drain already explained above. Vegeta would tire easily fighting with just SSB, and Black could outlast him and then beat Vegeta despite him being stronger than him, much like how SSB Goku defeated Golden Frieza in the RoF movie.

The second 'battle' was only after a couple of punches previously, that's not really another battle. It's also much less of a fight than what happened with SSJB Vegeta and SSJ Black.

The RoF movie isn't canon, and SSJB isn't even shown with stamina issues in that movie.

This proves that: SSB (healthy) >>>> SSG (healthy) => SSB (heavily-drained). It definitely DOES NOT say that healthy SSB > SSG, otherwise the form would be absolutely pointless, and there would be no reason to use it at all instead of SSG (as according to your logic, SSG is both stronger than SSB, and has much better stamina consumption compared to Blue)

You might want to re-read my comments. My logic is what you said initially in this comment. I don't believe that SSJB is weaker than SSJG when both are healthy, just that overuse of SSJB has been shown to have disastrous effects on stamina and power.

And here's your part where your argument collapse: You consistenly ignore my point about both Rose and SSG, and treat SSG as > SSB so you'd not have to deal with this part: As we know, SSR is a form that transcend SSG in power, much like how SSB transcends SSG as well, and therefore, it is stronger than SSG, and again, if Rose would not be stronger than SSG, then Black would have no reason to transform into Super Saiyan Rose, as SSG would always be the better option

That would mean, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that SSR Black > SSG Black.

That would mean that Vegeta's own SSG form Post-Training would be > SSG Black, as he was beating Rose Black with it. As the multiplier, whatever it is, between SSJ and SSG remain the same for both of them, we can safely say that SSJ Vegeta > SSJ Black > SSB Vegeta (Pre-HBTC) >>>>>> BoG SSG Goku = 3-B

Well with your logic from how you treated Trunk's statement, we shouldn't take Zama's statement seriously. However, instead of just dismissing it, I'm going to add context that explains why that interpretation that SSJR > SSJG is wrong with Zama's statement.

First, Goku Black explains post-zenkai that his godly self and the Saiyan body are becoming one and the same. This ties into the idea that Black's Godly essence has to first become more compatible with the body of Goku.

Black immediately ties in his power level's growth to the fact that he can now transform into Super Saiyan Rose (Next panel). Not that he had SSJG, which if he did, then why did he use SSJ the entire time?

Next is the page where he transforms, but then: Comes the statement where Black is stated to surpass SSJG. Notice how surpassing SSJG was the cause, not a comparison to the power of SSJR.

With that context, it's more likely that Black & Zamas is stating that because his base power has now surpassed Super Saiyan God (Which he was approaching before, as shown by the fact that SSJ Black can even fight SSJB Vegeta and survive, but now outright surpasses), he gains Rose.

It's Black who's stronger than SSJG, not that the transformation itself is a stronger multiplier than SSJG. Especially since A - Zamas hasn't actually experienced SSJG yet so there is no way he would know its transformation's power), B - Him surpassing SSJG is directly stated to be the reason why he unlocked the transformation, not the other way around, C- The gap as mentioned before when CSSJB Goku comes in is specifically around 10x.

Let me rephrase your chain:

SSJG Vegeta (Post-HTBC) / SSJB Vegeta for split seconds >= SSJR Black > SSG Black > (Unknown multiplier)> SSJ Black >= Vegeta SSJB (Tired) <= SSJG Goku

And again, there would be no reason to use SSB if SSG is stronger, as this would mean SSG would always be the better choice. Same goes for Rose, as Black would always prefer SSG if Rose was weaker than God as well, meaning both SSR and SSB > SSG

With what I said previously in mind, here's the actual scaling:

CSSJ Goku (Confirmed 10x from SSJG Goku) > SSJG Vegeta (Post-HTBC) / SSJB Vegeta for split seconds >= SSJR Black > Vegeta SSJB (Healthy) > SSJ Black > Goku Black (Post-Zenkai)>= Vegeta SSJB (Tired) <= SSJG Goku > Goku Black (Pre-Zenkai).

And to clarify one more time, in case you don't read the other parts, I'm not SSJG > SSJB, just SSJG > SSJB (Tired) which you also agree with.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Goku immediately explains why this happens though, the very instant Vegeta fights Black he transforms. In that very scan, Goku also mentions this is why SSJG appears to be keeping up, when in reality he wouldn't be. Both Vegeta and Black confirm this.

It's a bit of Super's wonky logic, but it makes it pretty clear that SSJG Vegeta is not stronger with Black, just enough to keep pace with him when combined with the SSJB split-second transformations.

SSR Black still struggles against SSG Vegeta, and is completely helpless against Blue Vegeta in the few moments he transforms to attack him. As Vegeta only transforms to land a hit on Black, he first needs to tag him and get close enough to Black without the latter striking him when he's in SSG.

If Black was stronger than SSG Vegeta, then Black could easily dodge all of Vegeta's attacks and attack when Vegeta is in SSG to disrupt the switches, meaning that Black is at most equal to him

So then what's up with trying to upgrade them to 3-B, if you don't believe the power up was in the trillions?

Because in-universe PL increase isn't necessarily linear with how their AP increase here, as Goku had a PL of 400 in the Raditz Saga and was 5-C, but the lower tiers are 9-A to High 8-C, despite even Goku being born with a PL of 2, so it's clearly not linear increase, as feats >>> in-universe system. This also happens in the Frieza Saga with 5-B VS High 5-A, and Cell Saga with High 4-C to 4-B, even though the increase in power according to their in-universe system is not as large

Well, it needs one to pretend the CSSJB Goku vs Fused Zamas fight never happened. Or that Trunks was wrong. Or that a diety transcending SSJG means he unlocked SSJG (didn't happen) and transcended it, instead of Goku Black being stronger than SSJG = gets a new transformation because he's already a deity.

Goku Black didn't needed to go SSG, as Rose was always the better options to him, since unlike Blue, that doesn't seem to be draining for him. However, just because he didn't do it, doesn't mean he can't do it. You can might as well say that we can't say that SSB Vegeta > SSJ3 Vegeta since he never used it before, when it doesn't matter since even if he would have it, SSJ3 would always be a worse option compared to SSG or SSB

The same works for Black. He didn't used SSG in his battles because he never needed to use it due to SSR being superior to it in every way.
SSG is also nothing more than Base form + God ki. And since Black is an actual deity, he naturally posess God ki so he could turn SSG. The only reason he didn't turned God or Rose earlier is because he was still adjusting to Goku's body after he wished to have his body as he didn't have full mastery over Goku's body before Zamasu healed him

Why are you accepting Trunk's statement, but not Zama's, which is also speculation. Which unlike Trunks, who was immediately confirmed accurate or close to accurate when SSJB Vegeta still didn't get much if any stronger, was immediately shown wrong by CSSJB Goku and a stronger Vegeta.

Trunks' theory was contradicted by many later showings in the manga, which why I discard it. However, Zamasu wasn't theorizing, unlike Trunks.
CSSB is a much different form compared to the regular SSB form, as it's a much more advanced level that allows the user to far exceed the normal capabilities of SSB by drawing all the leaking ki inside the body, providing an immense boost in power compared to regular SSB

Next is the page where he transforms, but then: Comes the statement where Black is stated to surpass SSJG. Notice how surpassing SSJG was the cause, not a comparison to the power of SSJR.

With that context, it's more likely that Black & Zamas is stating that because his base power has now surpassed Super Saiyan God (Which he was approaching before, as shown by the fact that SSJ Black can even fight SSJB Vegeta and survive, but now outright surpasses), he gains Rose.

This is pure headcanon. The text was very clear that the form that Black's SSR is a transformation that surpasses SSG the same way SSB surpasses SSG (though judging on what you say, you seem to disagree with that too so oh well).

It's Black who's stronger than SSJG, not that the transformation itself is a stronger multiplier than SSJG. Especially since A - Zamas hasn't actually experienced SSJG yet so there is no way he would know its transformation's power), B - Him surpassing SSJG is directly stated to be the reason why he unlocked the transformation, not the other way around, C- The gap as mentioned before when CSSJB Goku comes in is specifically around 10x.

More headcanon. Zamasu was very clear stating that Black's new form is what surpasses SSG, and he was referring to Black surpassing HIS OWN Super Saiyan God to transform into Rose. Black already surpassed SSG with just SSJ before he transformed, so Black was already far superior to SSG Vegeta even without Rose

One more thing: The 10 times gap you keep mentioning isn't between CSSB Goku and SSG Goku, but just regular SSB Goku and SSG Goku, as when Whis was saying the 10% statement, he referred to regular SSB, as they didn't unlocked CSSB until Goku fought Fused Zamasu, so that multiplier you're talking about is irrelevant to CSSB when it was referring to the Basic SSB, especially when it's clear that CSSB >>>> SSB

The RoF movie isn't canon, and SSJB isn't even shown with stamina issues in that movie.

RoF and Golden Frieza did happened in the manga, so yeah, it is canon.

With what I said previously in mind, here's the actual scaling:

CSSJ Goku (Confirmed 10x from SSJG Goku) > SSJG Vegeta (Post-HTBC) / SSJB Vegeta for split seconds >= SSJR Black > Vegeta SSJB (Healthy) > SSJ Black > Goku Black (Post-Zenkai)>= Vegeta SSJB (Tired) <= SSJG Goku > Goku Black (Pre-Zenkai).

And to clarify one more time, in case you don't read the other parts, I'm not SSJG > SSJB, just SSJG > SSJB (Tired) which you also agree with.

No. Your God > Rose argument relies on nothing but headcanon, and as I already explained, if SSG was indeed > SSR like you said, Black would've transformed to it, as SSG have better stamina conservation, and according to you, better power too for some reason

Also, your scaling basically say that God = Blue, but only for few seconds, and then God > Blue, so you seem to contradict yourself. Either healthy Blue > SSG or it isn't (and it quite clearly is. As said before, the reason he needed the switch is becasue of stamina issues rather than power issues), it can't be both

So here is the actual scaling:

CSSB Goku >>>> SSB Goku = SSB Vegeta > 10 * SSG Vegeta (as the increase was from God to regular Blue) >= SSR Black > SSG Black (He never transformed to it, but this is how it would be had he done so) >>>>> SSJ Black > Pre-HBTC SSB Vegeta > SSG Vegeta Pre-Training >>>>>>> BoG SSG Goku = 3-B

That would mean that after the training, SSG Vegeta >>> SSG Black, and therefore, we can assume that SSJ Vegeta >>> SSJ Black, and also that Base Vegeta >>> Base Black, and since SSJ Black was >>> SSB Vegeta Pre-HBTC, we can safely assume that Base Black >>> SSG Vegeta Pre-HBTC, who is in turn much stronger than BoG SSG Goku = 3-B

It doesn't matter how you look at it. Base Goku and Vegeta are 3-B

 

[Spinoirr]

Bump