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Man, Minecraft Tiers Suck Right Now

Honestely I am agreeing with Deathstroke here, his arguments are being ignored just for a revision to pass via sheer numbers, which is irrelevant in a CRT since the quality of the arguments are what matters, which are being ignored for awhile now
 
I've literally argued against "lore vs. gameplay" before, and you just moved the goalpost and brought it up again.

If you so demand it, I'll respond again soon-ish. I've got lots of schoolwork these days, so give me time.
 
I plan on responding to at least a few points when I can, but let me ask this so my argument is rooted in mutual agreement.

Deathstroke, does Steve's durability or AP scale to The Ender Dragon's AP and durability at any point in Minecraft? If so, what kind of gear must Steve have (please be specific) and why?

Anyone else can give their piece on this, btw.
 
The Ender Dragon is immune to all potion effects in the game, so from an in-verse perspective, the Ender Dragon is immune to nearly all of the hax in the game. The only way to beat the Ender Dragon in a fight would be killing it via AP. So Steve's AP would have to be comparable to the dragon's durability. It cannot be vastly lower.
 
What equipment of Steve's makes him scale to The Ender Dragon, then? I assume you don't think Steve scales with his fists, so I want to see what your opinions are.
 
My opinions are near identical to the current scaling we have as of now, which focuses more on game intentions and lore than health points and damage points. Of course that's just going to loop back to the same disagreement we've already had for a while now.

But just to lay it out there and answer your question, diamond and netherite tier items and their enchanted variants.
 
So, at the very least, unenchanted diamond armor. Would you count enchanted iron armor too, seeing as it can be above diamond armor in effectiveness with mid to high-level enchants? And regardless, why do you think that diamond gear scales?

Trust me, this is relevant, I just want there to be absolutely 0 ambiguity on this point in specific.
 
Enchanted Iron Armor is only similar with high level enchantments, like Protection 4, things that one does not naturally come by in the game by any immediate way, and usually require an enchanting table to get the proper protection for. Which, by then, you're getting diamonds. Lower level enchanted iron won't make the cut, the kinds you are more likely to rarely find on zombies or skeletons in hard difficulty.

The reason why I say diamonds scale is, again, the game progression and lore. It is reflected off of things like the Mobestiary (and an older Minecraft guide book) advising players fighting bosses with enchanted diamond gear. It is also subtly supported by the near unbreakable blocks in survival game such as obsidian, ancient debris, and netherite, all of them being needing the requirements of a diamond pickaxe to be capable of "successfully mining in seconds" rather than "unsuccessfully mining after nearly to over a minute". Considering the progression of the game to the nether requires you to make a nether portal out of obsidian, as well as enchanting gear requiring obsidian, it's very notable that the intentions are you to be in diamond gear by this level of the stage.

So basically the logical game progression makes you need diamond gear in order to fight the bosses, and the same diamond gear can break the same near unbreakable blocks in the game, which only bosses show any capability of destroying, and it is backed up by things like the Mobestiary advising players to use enchanted diamond gear by the time one fights the bosses.

TL;DR, it's due to game progression, game feats, and game intentions. As a video game there is bound to be a few inconsistencies but at the very end of the day the logic on its own stays sound and doesn't contradict itself.
 
So, your stance is that a diamond sword's AP scales to The Ender Dragon.

Well, then my case is clear. Regular mobs can take a hit, or even multiple, from a diamond sword. Therefore, their durability scales. And while they certainly do less damage (outside of some enemies, such as The Vindicator, who actually do monstrously more damage), they can definitely hurt each other, and with difficulty, hurt Steve.

That's literally all I need to say, as you've already established you agree with diamond scaling to The Ender Dragon, and mobs can also survive it, so that's all that matters. No need to overcomplicate the matter. Unless you can prove how a diamond sword in fact does one-shot most normal mobs, or how a Vindicator doesn't provide a great threat even with diamond gear, then I fail to see why we shouldn't apply these revisions right now.
 
We just went into a complete circle. This is once again the tip of the iceberg and the reason we've been having this argument this whole time.

Not once has creepers been brought up into this discussion, like at all.

DeathstroketheHedgehog said:
As a video game there is bound to be a few inconsistencies but at the very end of the day the logic on its own stays sound and doesn't contradict itself.
Click to expand...

The reason why I said this is that my logic stands on its own without contradicting yourself.

Your logic involves health points and damage points, which is the exact reason I pointed this out. You say silverfish don't scale due to being oneshot by stronger swords, but you fail to put in that logic for creepers as well. In fact, in that whole argument, you failed to even say the name Creeper once, and that's one of the main things I was looking for.

When I asked you for detailed scaling, I asked for something along the lines of "X=Y(equal to X)>Z(not quite as strong as Y)>A (nearly as strong as Z)". This isn't it. This is just returning us to square one of lore vs game mechanics.
 
Creepers are a massive threat towards Steve, too. A point blank Creeper explosion can kill or nearly kill Steve, depending on his armor. It would make sense that, if they can nearly kill Steve, that they'd be able to kill regular mobs, and heavily damage bosses (more than Steve can in a single strike). So, if you want my point about creepers, it's there. Their AP is really high (much higher than their durability) and is definitely above even The Ender Dragon's singular hit. The Ender Dragon, being a boss and with higher durability than, say, Steve, can take the damage, but it hurts a fair bit. Steve can only tank it with really, really, really top-end gear, and even then, is hurt quite badly, so he downscales from The Ender Dragon in durability. Most mobs lack armor or durability like Steve, and would die to a point-blank explosions, so they'd downscale in durability from Steve.

Does that sound more reasonable to you, and has it clarified more things?
 
Admittedly, I doubt any Minecraft scaling will be absolutely perfect. Let's admit it, the game makes it hard. But I still stand by the fact that this is a more reasonable system than one where a Vindicator fails to scale to end-game enemies despite being one of the most dangerous enemies in the entire game due to sheer damage, and where we arbitrarily just "Decide" breakpoints for tiers based on non-existent linear progression.
 
Moritzva said:
Creepers are a massive threat towards Steve, too. A point blank Creeper explosion can kill or nearly kill Steve, depending on his armor. It would make sense that, if they can nearly kill Steve, that they'd be able to kill regular mobs, and heavily damage bosses (more than Steve can in a single strike). So, if you want my point about creepers, it's there. Their AP is really high (much higher than their durability) and is definitely above even The Ender Dragon's singular hit. The Ender Dragon, being a boss and with higher durability than, say, Steve, can take the damage, but it hurts a fair bit. Steve can only tank it with really, really, really top-end gear, and even then, is hurt quite badly, so he downscales from The Ender Dragon in durability. Most mobs lack armor or durability like Steve, and would die to a point-blank explosions, so they'd downscale in durability from Steve.

Does that sound more reasonable to you, and has it clarified more things?
Click to expand...
It still walks around the problem because this is a repeat of what we have talked about before.

It's one thing to downscale from a feat simply due to someone being stronger, it's another to try to downscale from a oneshot AP. The only way downscaling works is if it's a comparable level of power, and oneshotting someone is the exact opposite of comparable. For example, say Superman downscaled from someone like Doomsday, and someone like Cyborg got oneshot by Doomsday. Cyborg<<Superman<Doomsday. Is there any reason Cyborg should reliably scale from Doomsday's tier at all, especially when they have more reliable lower end feats to scale from?

To explain the analogy, your claim is that the Ender Dragon has X durability (creeper explosion). So Steve, while downscaling, still needs to be in range of X AP to harm the Dragon. Zombies downscale from Steve, yet at the same time you admit they get oneshot by creepers, which is X AP.
Does it make sense to downscale Zombies from X AP when it oneshots them rather than scaling them from more reliable lower feats, such as a ghast explosion?

Because at the end of the day, the whole reason you are saying these mobs scale at all is because of endgame weapons like a diamond sword, which means that these mobs are still being scaled to the oneshotting creeper explosion. And if that logic behind scaling is allowed, then by using something like a wooden or stone sword, Silverfish would still be capable of downscaling (especially when by damage points, a wooden sword would be stronger than a zombie attack).

And on top of that, if we're really factoring HP and DP, a creeper explosion would do less overall damage to an Ender Dragon than a zombie could do to a skeleton. So unless you are claiming zombies and skeletons are glass cannons, you can't even say bosses are "heavily" damaged by creepers, else you're saying everyone is heavily damaged by almost every attack.
 
I'm going to deny what you said, Deathhstroke, as that's not what I said. If (X) is a Creeper Explosion, then (X) is far, far, far higher than any of Steve's individual, non-Bed attacks. Which, mind you, is true. It's also substantially higher than his normal durability, too. But, given your words, we're already taking the premise that Steve's attacks can hurt The Ender Dragon - and we don't use an in-verse one-shot to grant multipliers, so it's entirely possible for Steve to be able to hurt The Ender Dragon and a Creeper explosion to do so without impacting scaling.

Now, what exactly says Steve scales to The Ender Dragon, as this is an absolute focal point of my argument? Well, it's simply... the lore itself, the lore you like to bring up so much. And, as I said, lore takes precedence over all else in situations - and while lore does not contradict my scaling at all, it does provide a very firm and absolutely undeniable starting point. That is, Steve can, w/ higher end gear, fight The Ender Dragon. So, that's step one. You even agreed to this yourself, so you absolutely can't deny this, as we're even using the same logic that lore takes precedence if there is a clash between lore and gameplay.

For the rest of my scaling chain, unfortunately, less lore exists to confirm nor deny my claims, so we move down to the second best choice. But at the same time, as there is no lore that blatantly denies or disagrees with my stance, it means the chain I propose is perfectly valid. Steve can very, very much fight The Ender Dragon as an undeniable fact we both agreed on. Lower mobs, like zombies and similar, can still take hits from him. Some mobs, like Vindicators and Piglin Brutes, can actually do more damage and be an even larger threat. That's all there is to it.

And creepers? It's simple. Lore confirms Steve scales to The Ender Dragon, though obviously his stats are a bit more akin to downscaling, given how The Ender Dragon is definitely a lot beefier than him. Then again, said downscaling wouldn't be too heavy, depending on Steve's gear - he can still hurt it varying amounts, depending on if he's swinging a stone axe, or a Sharpness V Netherrite axe. Overall, definitely scales. Creepers can hurt The Ender Dragon far more, but given it's higher durability, The Ender Dragon can survive. This is also true, and two people can hurt the same guy different amounts without breaking a scaling chain. I don't see the problem with this. A stronger attack hurts a durable foe more than a weaker attack, yes, but that doesn't mean the weaker attack didn't hurt him at all.

Now, Creepers hitting Steve, depending on his gear, can either kill him or heavily hurt him, depending on his gear. Naturally, end-game progression is difficult to mark exactly due to a lack of lore or anything establishing very clear progression lines, so splitting tiers up by gear is quite a difficult task. However, it makes sense that an attack that can hurt The Ender Dragon far more than he can, would also heavily hurt or kill him. That's fair, and again, we don't grant multipliers from one-shots in fiction, so this does not mean the scaling chain is hurt. Just that Steve is lower, but depending on his gear, still strong enough to tank the attack. Barely.

Mobs downscale further, and a vast majority of them will die to a point-blank explosion, though it's possible for them to survive the explosion if they're a bit farther away. Regardless, that's also very, very simple and natural downscaling, as their durability is weaker than Steve's with highest-end gear.

I fail to see how any of this contradicts what I said, and like I said you would, you continue to conjure up impressions and ideas for "what I/my logic says" when I repeatedly correct you. Antvasima and others, perhaps it should be clear by now why I don't see validity in continuing debate that, indeed, is going in circles? Any time I say something, it goes as follows;
  1. I say (X).
  2. Deathstroke says I said (Y), and says that's wrong because (Z).
  3. I say that no, I did not said (Y), I said (X), and (X) counters (Z) very easily.
  4. Deathstroke ignores that and continues his argument as if I said (Y) without addressing my points.
Like, look. If Deathstroke is just that adamant to not use the fact that a Zombie can take multiple hits from Steve's weapons, and that Steve's low-tier axes are equal to high-tier swords, as facts and reasons for scaling, that's fine. But those are just opinions. All he has really said is repeating the point that he disagrees, over and over, but he hasn't really proved me wrong. He has an opinion, he doesn't like the method of which I'm getting my results. That's fine. I've explained why my method is valid (lore > gameplay, but when there is no lore to defer to, we can utilize elements of gameplay with care, elaborated on above) and if he doesn't agree with me still, there's no way for me to convince him of it.

I'll look at Gyro's points specifically soonish, I promise, I've just been stressed out this week so I'm trying to deal with things one at a time. So I'm not saying anything about Gyro's points, but I am claiming that even despite getting Deathstroke to admit that Steve scaling to The Ender Dragon is a truth we agree on, he still refuses to accept the fact that normal mobs can still take hits from Steve at all points in the game. And frankly, I don't think that's going to change.

Expect a post regarding Gyro's points soon. If you want, go ahead and look through past arguments, you'll see an awful lot of the above debate pattern of assuming facts about my argument that are absolutely and undeniably wrong, requiring me to debunk things that could be answered by just reading the original post. So, if anyone questions why I don't want to continue "moving in circles" like Antvasima himself said, it's because of this. I see no purpose in debating in a loop that is not ending, and I ask that nobody force me to debate in something that they, themselves, admit is going nowhere.
 
I agree with Mori FRA, and I'd recommend to just count votes by this point since Mori n' Deathstroke went for an eternity already which seems to go nowhere
 
DeathstroketheHedgehog said:
And on top of that, if we're really factoring HP and DP, a creeper explosion would do less overall damage to an Ender Dragon than a zombie could do to a skeleton. So unless you are claiming zombies and skeletons are glass cannons, you can't even say bosses are "heavily" damaged by creepers, else you're saying everyone is heavily damaged by almost every attack.
Click to expand...
Just saying, this could be the case since for each side it only takes a few good hits in game to kill outside Enderdragon, Wither and Iron Golem (Unless you use Bed Bombing)
 
Agree: InfiniteDay, Saikou, Tllmbrg, 00potato, Crabwhale, The Divine Phoenix, Starter Pack, Phoenks, YmTheSuper, ReallyBroken, SOULOFCINDER, Schnee, Edward, Wokistan, Rikimarox, Daddybrawl (unclear), Abstractions (unclear), Matthew (unclear), The_Smashor (unclear)

Disagree: Agnaa, Gyronutz, Deathstroke, Theuser, Lord_JJJ, ican'tthink

"Unclear" votes are ones who have expressed a nod of agreement with my logic and didn't object, or even supported my argument at some point, but didn't explicitly mention voting.

Sir_Ovens - I'd read the original post, and my most recent post. Given the circular nature of this argument, I still stand by everything I've said, and that's the crux of my argument. As for Deathstroke's point, you could read just about any of them, they tend to be similar.

Overall, I claim that due to a lack of clear lore, we should use the fact of enemies surviving attacks in-game without dying as valid cause for scaling, alongside such incredibly small progression in values. Deathstroke does not want this. That's about how it is, on a simplified level.
 
Oh, small note, I was wrong on something.

On this wiki, and on The Vindicator's page right now (so, already accepted and applied information from long ago), it's stated that axes are stronger than swords. This is true, and this further points out a problem when...

Well, I made a mistake.

It's not stone axes that are equal to diamond swords. It's wooden axes. I showed this in my original video but I think I forgot and started saying stone axes.

So a literal wooden, tree tool is as valid of a damage choice as a diamond sword.

If that doesn't destroy any fabric of decisive, progression-based tiering, I don't know what will.
 
This just seems like massive stonewalling from Deathstroke & Co.

Any argued "intended" progression is complete asspull in a game with almost no story and where freedom of doing what the hell you want is the main driving point. If anything it's contradicted, again, by the Mobeistary.
 
Question: Why is Steve tiered progression wise? There isn't a standard progression system in Minecraft and I can fight Ender Dragon with or without enchantments or any end game items. Hell, updates don't even add on to the progression. I can beat Ender Dragon with diamond gear, so what's the point of Netherite gear? I can get the latter before or after Ender Dragon, and it would change nothing.

I think Steve should just have a single key with all possible gear.
 
It seems like Saikou acted as tiebreaker here then.
 
Antvasima said:
It seems like Saikou acted as tiebreaker here then.
Click to expand...
He was one of the first people to respond, actually. Then again, I used him as a test subject to prove my point and make sure I was correct, so he has a pretty hands-on experience with exactly what I'm talking about.

Also, Ovens, it's good that you say that! That's exactly what I am proposing. One key, all gear potentially accessible.
 
So it seems like we have reached a conclusion here then?
 
Saikou_The_Lewd_King said:
This just seems like massive stonewalling from Deathstroke & Co.

Any argued "intended" progression is complete asspull in a game with almost no story and where freedom of doing what the hell you want is the main driving point. If anything it's contradicted, again, by the Mobeistary.
Click to expand...
Games don't need a story to have obviously intended/mandatory progression. The Mobestiary actually has statements backing this up.
Sir_Ovens said:
Question: Why is Steve tiered progression wise? There isn't a standard progression system in Minecraft and I can fight Ender Dragon with or without enchantments or any end game items. Hell, updates don't even add on to the progression. I can beat Ender Dragon with diamond gear, so what's the point of Netherite gear? I can get the latter before or after Ender Dragon, and it would change nothing.

I think Steve should just have a single key with all possible gear.
Click to expand...
There is a standard progression system in Minecraft. You have to get diamond, or if you use some trickery iron, to get to the Nether. And you have to get to the Nether before you can get to the End.

Not actually needing end-game gear to fight the final boss doesn't make fighting it with almost no gear the intended strategy. We do not do that for literally any other game where you can fight end-game shit in low-level challenges.

I think it's madness to scale 99% of a game to the literal final boss.
 
Last edited:
What do the rest of you think about Agnaa's analysis?
 
I don’t think about Agnna’s analysis.

Ok but seriously it isn’t like the game based scaling contradicts any lore so nothing he says about absurdity has any weight. Usually when you argue it cannot scale you need to prove that the game contradicts any story. Minecraft lacks that contradictory lore so all we have is gameplay, the Mobestiery, and Agnna’s head canon that this is madness.
 
Game based scaling does not have to contradict lore to be ******* ridiculous.

There is almost 0 lore about the FF7 superbosses. To the point where no matter how you treat them it doesn't really contradict stuff. But people have managed to beat them with a single lowest-possible-level character.

Minecraft has gameplay. Where you need to get iron/diamond before you go to the Nether, and go to the Nether before you go to the End. I just don't think you should need lore contradicting things somehow for scaling the final boss to the first enemy you see to be bad scaling.

(Also lmao at saying that "this is madness" is my "head canon", it's an opinion bro, you don't need to whack loaded language like that around everywhere)
 
What does FF7 have to do with this. When can you even find those bosses? Unlike Minecraft FF games are mostly linear and can be scaled in a linear method.
Minecraft really lacks that linear structure or much of a story. Just because you need to get these materials to get to the place doesn’t mean that you need the tools made from them since again no lore or story states this. The one point you have left is you thinking that it is dumb and crazy; not much of an argument is it?
 
Sometimes in discussions people bring up examples and analogies to help progress the discussion along.

You can find these bosses out in the middle of nowhere when you're close to finishing the game.

Unlike Minecraft FF games are mostly linear and can be scaled in a linear method. Minecraft really lacks that linear structure or much of a story.

...Except for the mandatory linear structure that I talked about that you cannot finish the game without.

Just because you need to get these materials to get to the place doesn’t mean that you need the tools made from them since again no lore or story states this.

  1. We can look at the gameplay mechanics rather than the lore which show those certain materials being necessary.
  2. You kinda do need a diamond pickaxe to mine the obsidian. And idk how much you consider flint and steel to be a "tool" but that does need iron.
  3. It's the best indicator we have, we should not ignore it.
  4. Most other games don't say "Oh by the way, you need to wear all this gear to fight the final boss, and you need to be this level." They MAYBE at most have one piece of gear that's discussed in the lore. That doesn't mean that we scale early-game enemies to final bosses because you can use the same equipment and the lore doesn't tell you not to. And for FF7, there's no lore telling you you can't fight the superbosses with a single start-of-game character.
  5. Lore does state it. A mobestiary scan was posted recommending enchanted diamond gear against the Wither.
The one point you have left is you thinking that it is dumb and crazy; not much of an argument is it?

That ain't my argument but okay. I've repeatedly said that games don't need lore to have obviously intended and even shown mandatory progression. Speaking in broad strokes minecraft does have a very linear progression, just with a lot of optional things on the side.
 
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