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Man, Minecraft Tiers Suck Right Now

I'm on mobile, so I'll quickly debunk your last point -

Wither spawn explosions are obviously much stronger than all their other attacks. Creeper explosions, while weaker, are still much stronger than most regular attacks, including ones from The Ender Dragon. We don't scale The Wither's basic attacks to his spawn explosion, and since mobs are downscaling to their basic attacks more than anything, your "point" debunking my scaling is absolutely ridiculous for incredibly obvious reasons.

Like... I don't really feel like continuing this, anymore. You haven't changed anyone's mind, and you're repeating the same arguments over and over, or slight variants with the exact fallacies and issues. Anyone can read above and easily tell that none of my points have truly been debunked, and at this point, you're just moving the goalpost.

@Antvasima , I'd say this can be applied.
 
Okay. This can probably be applied now then.
 
Moritzva said:
Wither spawn explosions are obviously much stronger than all their other attacks.
Click to expand...
Wither explosions are also the start of the 8-B chain, aaand...

That also has nothing to do with what I said in my last point.

Creepers can oneshot zombies and skeletons. You didnt debunk it, you brought up a different point entirely. I wasnt even referring to the wither, I was talking about creepers.

They cant oneshot bosses, so by your logic that scales to their durability, and anyone strong enough to hurt bosses should scale up for AP.

----------

So Just explain that: why should base mobs scale to the boss tiers when they get oneshot by a far weaker attack? Because bosses can tank that attack, so they definitely dont have anywhere near the AP to harm the bosses, which by your logic you say they do. It can't make them glass cannons either because zombies and skeletons can fight each other, so their AP and durability are comparable.
 
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Creeper explosions and similar damage mobs massively more than any weapon in the game. If your argument is that, because creepers one-shot most mobs, they can’t scale, then Steve can’t scale without Blast Protection or similar enchants as a point blank explosion will extremely heavily damage or downright kill him otherwise, and Steve can’t do anywhere near that much damage with normal weapons, axe or sword. Additionally, that turns all bosses into blatant stone walls, as their regular attacks are far below a creeper explosion in power.

If nobody else has any objections, I am okay with applying this.
 
Actually, I play around with full protection enchanted armor, and I know that players can decently survive creeper explosions, for one thing.

For another, my argument is about not taking hitpoints so literally, so your issue of damage only affects your argument, not mine. I'd like to know where was it stated that game mechanics take priorities over feats.

At the end of the day, going by your logic, 8-B is wither explosion, which the boss mobs can tank, and creepers are smaller explosions, which oneshots lower mobs. If you're taking hitpoints seriously, then I don't understand your point here. Are you admitting to intentionally trying to downscale mobs from a AP oneshot stomp?
 
Moritz: ‘Then players can’t scale without enchants or protection as they will otherwise almost die’
DH: ‘Actually, I play with Full Protection Armor, and I know Players can survive Creeper Explosions’

hmmm
 
They don't almost die either, if that's what you're implying.

Either way the very bringing up of the creeper is the ultimatum here.

If youre getting oneshotted by a Creeper's explosion, it makes no sense to downscale because you are too weak too. The only way this hitpoint logic works is to call all four endgame tier feats outliers over one feat.

Even assuming we did something that outrageous, the only ones who can safely fully scale to creepers are basically all the lategame level characters, and it's STILL a oneshot stomp for everyone else. By this odd logic, the lategame characters should be stone-wall characters.
But the issue is the difference in AP and durability is a oneshot league. That means no character below late game can even hope to harm the bosses... Which makes no sense to this logic, because the entire reason this thread exists is because SUPPOSEDLY, everyone is scaling to each other and they can all able to reliably harm each other. It just makes 100 more inconsistencies than the original scaling. At that point the creeper would have to be an outlier and everyone should scale from ghast explosions.... But then by that logic creepers should oneshot bosses and they dont. More inconsistency.
 
Moritzva said:
Like... I don't really feel like continuing this, anymore. You haven't changed anyone's mind, and you're repeating the same arguments over and over, or slight variants with the exact fallacies and issues.
Click to expand...
I mean, he changed my mind :v

But, it seems like y'all've outvoted us.
 
DeathstroketheHedgehog said:
At the end of the day, going by your logic, 8-B is wither explosion, which the boss mobs can tank, and creepers are smaller explosions, which oneshots lower mobs. If you're taking hitpoints seriously, then I don't understand your point here. Are you admitting to intentionally trying to downscale mobs from a AP oneshot stomp?
Click to expand...
The fact that you've gone back to ignoring my arguments and misinterpreting my points when I literally just disproved and explained my reasoning against this gives me more than enough reason to call the argument here, as the debate is going nowhere.
 
Agnaa:

What do you think should be done here in summary?
 
Agnaa and Deathstroke disagree, while a total of everyone else agrees with the above. Wokistan disagrees with the calcs/thinks they are closer to outliers, however, but that's unrelated to the scaling chains.
 
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Yes, the calculations themselves have no real bearing on the scaling chain and commentary on them should be saved for a later date.
 
@Ant Since a large majority of supporters/knowledgeable members/staff agree with this revision, with only Deathstroke and I disagreeing, it seems like it should be applied.
 
I agree with Deathstroke here. Scaling all mobs based on damage and hitpoint values is quite honestly ridiculous. Even if there isn't much lore there's clearly a massive gap between an average Zombie and the Ender Dragon. The Enderman quote is more referring to the fact that one could get caught off-guard by Endermen while fighting the Dragon, as shown by the end of that very sentence, rather than treating them as equal threats.

"Wokistan was questioning the status of Low 7-C and referring to it as an outlier, alongside debate over 9-A's legitimacy."

Wokistan said "Also, scaling this much stuff to the ender dragon thing makes that thing much more likely to be an outlier...". It's because you're scaling almost every mob to the final boss of the game that it's more likely to be an outlier, and thus illegitimate. But while cacti, anvils and lightning may be threatening to an average mob, these won't do anything to a fully armoured player.

"Not to mention, blue skulls act differently and actually statistically reduce blast resistance in blocks, rather than simply blowing them up by force... with The Ender Dragon being unable to destroy obsidian, and The Wither relying on a pseudo-statistic reduction attack to destroy either."

Unless this has been changed, the Wither can destroy Obsidian by ramming into it, which makes most of this moot. The argument from the last CRT was that the Ender Dragon being unable to destroy Obsidian was a game mechanic, as it's one of the materials native to the End (case in point; the Ender Dragon can't destroy iron bars but she can destroy iron blocks).

"Not to mention, you shun game mechanics, just to use netherrite/obsidian having the same explosive values? How does that make sense?"

The explosive values are irrelevant honestly, the relevant part is that a Charged Creeper is unable to destroy a single Netherite block whereas mobs like the Dragon + Wither can bulldoze through it, showing clear superiority.

"Plus, a crit from an Iron Sword can definitely one-shot a silverfish."

Didn't know we accepted critical hits as legit on this site. Plus, all you have to do is replace the word "Iron" with "Wooden" in Deathstroke's argument to get the point across. Still, I do agree that Silverfish shouldn't scale to Steve with any weapons.

"Wither spawn explosions are obviously much stronger than all their other attacks."

Stronger perhaps, but not notably stronger to the point where a well-armoured Player can't tank it. The same well-armoured Player that we'd scale the Wither to with its regular attacks (which is also backed up by the Mobestiary above). Iirc the Wither's spawn explosion can't destroy materials such as Obsidian and Netherite either, so that would arguably mean that its regular attacks would be stronger.

"Creeper explosions and similar damage mobs massively more than any weapon in the game... Steve can’t scale without Blast Protection or similar enchants as a point blank explosion will extremely heavily damage or downright kill him otherwise, and Steve can’t do anywhere near that much damage with normal weapons, axe or sword. Additionally, that turns all bosses into blatant stone walls, as their regular attacks are far below a creeper explosion in power."

This already makes the assumption that it's ok to scale hit point damage to actual attack strength. But yes, with their suicide explosion attack, Creepers and Charged Creepers cap out at High 8-C and 8-B (24 tons or so) respectively, which are two more anti-feats for regular mobs downscaling from boss mob feats.

Aside from the obvious hit point stuff, there's a couple other things I take issue with:

"The Ender Dragon's body is currently given a x4 multiplier via taking 1/4th the damage as the head; however, the body can still take fair damage from better weapons, so I would like to mostly dismiss this notion as game mechanics and simply note that The Ender Dragon's head takes more damage than the rest of the body in the Weaknesses section."

It's stated in the Mobestiary, so no to game mechanics, and it taking "fair damage" on its body compared to its head still doesn't change the fact that it takes 4x less damage there compared to a mob like the Wither. But I don't mind how its phrased; the 4x extra durability on its body being its "natural" durability makes more sense to me.

"Snow Golems can knock back enemies far larger than humans, but deal no damage, so I'd give them 9-B, possibly 9-A as they can at least mildly annoy and knock back actual 9-A entities."

No, what, we don't give tiers to characters who can "mildly annoy" other characters with their attacks. Realistically, any attack 9-B or above should knock back an average mob; seeing as they aren't anchored to the ground, knocking them back only requires the attack to overcome the character's mass. 9-B is fine for the Snow Golem.

"Seriously, Frost Walker isn't a "late game gear item", not sure who thought of that."

Bit of an odd argument; enchantments are considered "late-game gear", and Frost Walker is one of the rarest enchantments in the game. This bit's more anecdotal, but I've clocked a LOT of hours in Minecraft over the years and I've never gotten a Frost Walker enchanted book beyond villager trades. Maybe Portal Creation should be "Mid-Game" instead, but eh.

I do agree with removing blindness resistance though.
 
Hmm. It seems like this is uncertain to apply after all then.
 
Not really, we're still at about a 3 vs. 14 (if I counted correctly).

I can respond but nothing above is something I haven't responded to before.

Though, the 4x multiplier is fair enough to debate, even Agnaa disagrees with that one as of right now, leaving that specifically at a 2v15.
 
Honestly, out of all my points, I understand the x4 dura multiplier the most. I disagree with it and it feels weird for the reasons mentioned above, but I can totally get why someone would agree with it.
 
We usually go by staff consensus and logical arguments rather than sheer numbers though. When possible, we should try to straighten out disagreements to avoid potential mistakes to be made.
 
My biggest issue is the one still never fully addressed.

At the end of the day my issue still remains with everyone scaling. Silverfish aren't allowed to scale because they get oneshot. But at the same time, the proposed scaling change is Bosses>=Creeper>>>>>>>zombies and skeletons.

The bosses being able to tank these creepers and tnt and end crystal and wither spawn attacks means they scale to this level of stuff in durability.

Meaning in order to damage them, one must hit with a comparable of power. If the supposed scaling claims that fodder enemies like Zombies and Skeletons could legitimately (and not via game mechanics alone) damage the boss mobs, despite them all being oneshot by creepers even by only being near them. So in order for this to work, their AP has to be so high up, that it's a stomp-level difference above their durability, making them glass cannons. But skeletons commonly accidentally shoot zombies and other mobs, causing them to fight. And it takes a several hits to for one to drain the HP of the other, which shouldnt happen if theyre glass cannons, and only make sense if their own AP and durability are comparable, which makes no sense because that would scale them to the boss tiers, despite being oneshot by a far weaker attack (the creeper) than what the bosses prove to handle (nearly every other explosion in the game).

The only real comment against it is that 'the players can get nearly killed by creepers too', which not only is a maxed out player not, but at the same time if we dropped every bit of logic and looked purely at game mechanics and numbers, the player would be just a durable as say a Zombie without any armor, and up to two dozen times more durable with peak armor. During nights, I've commonly used my Looting sword for better chances to get more bones for a farm I'm making. I constantly go out in said armor to a plethora of mobs that spawn in the night, and my healthbar almost never goes down despite me recklessly taking damage because I KNOW I can handle it. Even looking at pure armor points and hitpoints, the Player is so vastly beyond everything that downscaling alone shouldn't be enough.

There's just too many examples AGAINST the new scaling rather than for, and it seems like all arguments are being dropped solely for the voting numbers game, despite the fact that majority of said votes were well before I've made my arguments, which in turn caused a few others to vote for the same side.

At the end of the day, it's not even just for the sole fact that I disagree with these scaling changes, it's that as hard as I try to understand these scaling changes, it makes no sense to me. And believe me, I'm trying. The best way to counter an argument is to understand it, and I'm completely at a loss of how the proposed scaling would even work here.
 
Antvasima said:
We usually go by staff consensus and logical arguments rather than sheer numbers though. When possible, we should try to straighten out disagreements to avoid potential mistakes to be made.
Click to expand...
We have a large majority of staff consensus on this matter, too.

Equally, to Deathstroke -

A bosses' normal attacks are not equal in damage and danger to a point blank Creeper, as I said above, so your inherent premise of your argument is false.

I've been quite busy this week, I'd rather not continue to jump around in circles when I've addressed a vast majority of these before.
 
I think that separating "Lore and Gameplay" in Minecraft is a very dumb thing to do because the gameplay in the Minecraft world is literally diagetic.
 
Moritzva:

Okay. I suppose that this can probably be applied then, in lack of better options.
 
Reading through the thread again, most of my points were new and hadn't been brought up previously.

@Matthew_Schroeder, hearts and health bars are not a thing that literally exist outside of gameplay. Attacks doing x amount of damage are not referred to outside of stuff like wikis, and should not be taken seriously for vs battling purposes.
 
Can somebody address GyroNutz's new points please?
 
I am busy at the moment, and from what I see, the vast majority are slight variants on topics previously established, or opinion-based matters one can't actually debate.
 
Moritzva said:
A bosses' normal attacks are not equal in damage and danger to a point blank Creeper, as I said above, so your inherent premise of your argument is false.
Click to expand...
That wasn't my premise. It was that due to the fact that bosses can survive several of those attacks, their durability scales to it. The only way to affect them with that durability is if you have the AP to. That would effectively make zombies glass cannons, because the different in AP output and a zombie's is literally enough to oneshot a zombie.

I never even brought up AP for bosses in that entire comment, I mained the topic about durability for bosses. In fact, making bosses stone walls doesnt fix this issue anyways.
 
That logic would moreso imply that all bosses are stone walls, which has it's own long and complicated list of issues. While it's possible to interpret it that way, and I can sorta see the logic behind it, it brings up a lot more questions than answers and I don't believe in a system where bosses can theoretically contend with each other if not for purely AI issues, yet both are stone walls that realistically wouldn't be able to hurt each other.
 
And that's one the main issues I have with this scaling, it would logically make them stone walls which ultimately breaks the point of the scaling because the difference in AP is so vast that chip damage wouldn't be enough, someone's AP would have to scale. And if someone's AP scales according to this thread, almost everyone scales as well, creating this paradox loop.
 
I’m not actually sure what you’re saying, here. I’d rather approach it as a scenario of upscaling, anyways, rather than stone wall logic, so your argument doesn’t really disturb the way I propose things as it implies upscaling over one-shot territory.

You could argue stone walls base on the x4 modifier though, but applying it to The Wither as well would be iffy.
 
Moritzva said:
I am busy at the moment, and from what I see, the vast majority are slight variants on topics previously established, or opinion-based matters one can't actually debate.
Click to expand...
There was one opinion based point which had no real bearing on the main part of the OP. Like I said before, I read through the thread and my points seem to be unique. If you're busy that's fine, but I feel like you're handwaving all of my arguments here.
 
I think that it seems best if somebody addresses all of GyroNutz's concerns.
 
Unfortunately, as mentioned, I've been dragged down with school for a while so it may take some time for me, personally.

However, even with said points said for quite a while, it seems nobody's opinions have been changed on the matter, and I still personally find the points repetitive, so take that as you wish.
 
Moritzva said:
I’m not actually sure what you’re saying, here. I’d rather approach it as a scenario of upscaling, anyways, rather than stone wall logic, so your argument doesn’t really disturb the way I propose things as it implies upscaling over one-shot territory.

You could argue stone walls base on the x4 modifier though, but applying it to The Wither as well would be iffy.
Click to expand...

What I'm saying is that while I can see what you're trying to say on the surface, once we get into the details, I cannot imagine what revised scaling you're trying to make here.

It doesn't matter if we upscale, downscale, nor directly scale, because the issue here is trying to scale someone to the AP that oneshots them. I could care less about the x4 modifier at the moment, heck I could go ahead and use the Wither instead of the Ender Dragon just to prove its irrelevance here.

So to reiterate: The wither can withstand multiple creeper explosions. So we'll say they're X durability, and a creeper explosion is X Attack Potency.

By virtue of oneshotting zombies and skeletons, X AP is a oneshot stomp for the both of them. If we go with this revised scaling to scale them to the bosses, then we say they have X AP and therefore they can oneshot each other, effectively making zombies and skeletons glass cannons. That is not true, however, since both zombies and skeletons reliably take several hits from each other, so therefore they cannot be glass cannons. It makes zero sense to downscale them from X AP either, as since that AP oneshots them, the difference is too great for a downscale.

It's the same reasoning behind you trying to say Silverfish should not have X AP because they get oneshot by a diamond sword. There is no difference between these two arguments yet it's being ignored because... reasons??

And that's the issue here. Fodder mobs should not have the AP to harm boss mobs, and in fact they downscale so bad that the same X AP oneshots them, to the point where any sort of downscaling all is overreaching. And if we scale no one to that level, then by that logic there's no logical reason bosses should be defeated by AP alone... which in Minecraft, is the only way they can be defeated since they're immune to almost everything else.

So what we end up with is contradictory logic (silverfish can't scale because they get oneshot, but zombies can scale despite being oneshot) and when attempting to fix it, a paradox error (technically no one should have the AP to kill boss mobs). The only way to fix these issues fully is to outright call all creepers, explosions, and boss feats in Minecraft outliers, but that's just calling roughly around 6 feats outliers for the sake of one argument about game health points.



What I'm asking of you right now is to explain the scaling. Fully, detailed and everything. Because if you want this to go through, then when you add in the edits to the AP you'll need to add in descriptions as to why said characters scale and all. As you can see from my explanation above, no matter how hard I search, I can't find an understandable consistency once we go into those details.
 
> asking me to fully explain the scaling again

Y'see, this is why I'm a bit tired, as this is getting a wee bit repetitive and unnecessary.
 
Majority of our arguments before were about lore vs gameplay, of which you twice dropped them and moved on to letting the scaling pass by votes.
Ever since then, the one argument I've been having now is just for an explanation of the scaling alone, which has only vaguely been touched up on and never into detail, which I've been pushing for. That started last Thursday, and as we can see with the responses since then, I have never been given a clear answer.
 
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