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Making Doctor Who Great Again Part 1 - Cosmology/Tiering

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Here's roughly what Executor_N0 had to say.

Based on the information I gave him (just treating the Web of Time as a regular space-time structure), the Web of Time is Low 2-C, and the Ocean of Time is complex enough to be Low 1-C so long as it has the meaningful size of a 5-D structure.

The multiverse itself is at least one-dimensional level above the individual universes. So if universes are simply Low 2-C, for example, the multiverse is Low 1-C.

Executor's unsure about the non-space/time aspect of the Vortex, but he says the other aspects could be enough for one degree of infinite transcendence above oceans of time/the multiverse. Similarly, he's not sure about the Void, but said 'I think it would just scale to the Time Vortex or one layer above it due to the ontological differences.'
 
@ByAsura
ByAsura said:
Here's roughly what Executor_N0 had to say.

Based on the information I gave him (just treating the Web of Time as a regular space-time structure), the Web of Time is Low 2-C, and the Ocean of Time is complex enough to be Low 1-C so long as it has the meaningful size of a 5-D structure.

The multiverse itself is at least one-dimensional level above the individual universes. So if universes are simply Low 2-C, for example, the multiverse is Low 1-C.

Executor's unsure about the non-space/time aspect of the Vortex, but he says the other aspects could be enough for one degree of infinite transcendence above oceans of time/the multiverse. Similarly, he's not sure about the Void, but said 'I think it would just scale to the Time Vortex or one layer above it due to the ontological differences.'
Click to expand...
just low 1-C? 💀
 
It was just an example. Universes aren't even Low 2-C.
 
By universes, I mean the oceans of time that could very well be Low 1-C.
 
If we just consider the 'mundane' levels of space-time, yes. But there's higher dimensions and stuff.
 
I asked about The Void in the general version of Ultima's thread, and Ultima believes it could get either Low 1-A or 1-A if The Void dwarfs space.

Since the individual gaps between the more extreme alterward and otherward universes are beyond the range of TARDISes, and the regular gaps require modded TARDISes, I think we can reasonably assume that this is the case.
 
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ByAsura said:
I asked about The Void in the general version of Ultima's thread, and Ultima believes it could get either Low 1-A or 1-A if The Void dwarfs space.

Since the individual gaps between the more extreme alterward and otherward universes are beyond the range of TARDISes, and the regular gaps require modded TARDISes, I think we can reasonably assume that this is the case.
Click to expand...

ByAsura said:
Sunyata and a few other characters might.
Click to expand...
Cosmologically there is something beyond the voids?
 
I don't think there's anything explicitly beyond The Void (at least to my knowledge), just on the same order of infinity.
 
ByAsura said:
I don't think there's anything explicitly beyond The Void (at least to my knowledge), just on the same order of infinity.
Click to expand...
Anonymity appears to transcend emptiness or something like that, since it is said that while emptiness is known, anonymity is incomprehensible, touching on aspects of apophatic theology. Udl said that this would probably be classified as tier 0; if that's the case, other entities like 'the enemy' and things beyond would be escalated.
 
Lord_Farquaad69420 said:
Quick question, does the verse have any r>f?
Click to expand...
Yes, beings from higher dimensions perceive those from lower dimensions as "paintings." There are also quotes about the doctor being more "real" than others, like a TV or movie character where the person was in color while the rest were in monochrome.
 
tardis.fandom.com

The Enigma

The Enigma was a race that existed in a different dimension, which had no concepts that the main dimension had. Members of this species had tremendous abilities that they could use to alter the history and reality of N-Space. During the Last Great Time War, the Dalek Empire broke into the...
tardis.fandom.com tardis.fandom.com

Seems interesting. The concepts of the main universe hold no real meaning in this dimension. Gravity, time, and matter are infinitely malleable there. Everything that binds the universe is insignificant in this dimension. Another interesting aspect is that only what we call existence exists there; its beginning or end is completely absurd. The geometric nature of these inhabitants is intriguing; it has been likened to a Penrose triangle but with an infinitely more complex structure. It was larger than planets, had no mass, and no real presence in space-time. Additionally, it defied all known laws of any area of physics.
 
Oliver_de_jesus said:
Wasn't it said that the Reality Bomb at maximum power was destroying all creation, including the void?
Click to expand...
It's stated that it'd extend to The Void. Because it operates on a different timescale, the Reality Bomb actually did occur inside The Void (like how it destroyed every parallel universe Rose travelled through before it was even activated), and simply life-wiped it and weakened the walls of universes to the point where inter-dimensional travel was possible.
Quasar002 said:
Anonymity appears to transcend emptiness or something like that, since it is said that while emptiness is known, anonymity is incomprehensible, touching on aspects of apophatic theology. Udl said that this would probably be classified as tier 0; if that's the case, other entities like 'the enemy' and things beyond would be escalated.
Click to expand...
I'm not exactly sure myself, but I think it could be grounds for at least the higher ends of Tier 1.

After the universe ends, it's simply a total absence of time and space (like the Black Void in the OP), but the Anonymity is total indeterminacy/uncertainty both physically and philosophically. So, for example, you can't say if it's composed of everything, nothing, or both.
  • They opened, not on lands beyond the City, but on empty void: not even vacuum, for there was no space for vacuum to occupy, but on the sheer absence of existence. To gaze out of a Gate was, for a time, to know the oblivion which the resurrectees of the City had been forever denied.
  • ...absorbed into an increasing volume of what archemathicists are calling ‘apophatic space’, the Kane News anchor is saying, visibly worried now. At present the sphere is less than a gigameter in diameter, but the effect is spreading at what appears to be exponential speed...
  • And, all the while, a graphic shows the spread across the City of that sinister cloud of unknowing.
  • Out there, beyond the City’s walls, the billions of successful leapers arc gently through the void, beginning graceful orbits under their own momentum and the City’s gravity, wondering what to do next. The void they occupy, however alien, however strictly unreal it may be, is at least known and familiar. The new, the indescribable which has invaded the City now, cannot be called any of these things. It is a region – a sphere, as far as its dimensions can be measured – of ‘apophatic space’, a term which simply means that nothing whatsoever can be said about it.
  • One could not positively say that they no longer existed, for the apophasis was neither existence nor nonexistence, just as it was neither real nor unreal, living nor non-living. It was equally possible – and equally untrue – to say that everybody within the sphere of indeterminacy was unharmed, dead, cancelled, or somehow transfigured.
  • Some welcomed it, of course, hailing it as God: the long-awaited, too-long deferred Omega Point in which humanity would, finally, evolve into the ultimate Unknown and achieve its destiny. They waited with submission till it took them, or threw themselves in gratefully.
  • For now, her speed and that of the expanding other are identical, and the goddess Civitata faces the end of all her knowledge, an angel hovering before a wall of neither-nothing-nor-not-nothing.
  • Civitata knows a fellow god when she sees one – and an almost infinitely superior one, at that. This wall of ignorance she faces has consumed her entire physical structure in less than 24 hours, leaving nothing but the avatar she constructed to represent her within her own interior, plus a wristwatch.
Even if you don't truly know what absolute nothing is, you have an idea of what it entails because you just have to imagine the opposite of existence. The Anonymity is totally unknown and unknowable, implying there's not really even a frame of reference that can be applied to it.

Compassion has to communicate with it by imagining how it'd communicate with her and applying that to the Anonymity (which seemingly succeeds, because the parlance of the Anonymity in GOD ENCOMPASSES is the same as A Hundred Words from a Civil War).
  • The Anonymity could not be said to speak, any more than any other statement can validly be made about it. Facing it, words form in Civitata’s imagination, speculations as to what it might say were it somehow, impossibly, capable of articulation; and for the moment she decides to assume that it is not she who is imagining them.
  • In Civitata’s overactive imagination, a momentary ripple crosses the sheer wall of unknowingness as it encroaches steadily upon her.
When the Anonymity consumes the city, it exists in the timeless, spaceless void. This is what they mean by 'void' and 'non-void' (presumably there for the reader's benefit, because it can't be determined if Anonymity is real, unreal, or both).
  • The Anonymity is so large now that it no longer appears as a sphere: indeed, without space there is nothing for it to be spherical in. Instead there are two regions: void which is known and non-void which is unknown and unknowable. And in the former, just outpacing the latter’s encroachment, a woman’s figure turns to face the Anonymity.
Quasar002 said:
tardis.fandom.com

The Enigma

The Enigma was a race that existed in a different dimension, which had no concepts that the main dimension had. Members of this species had tremendous abilities that they could use to alter the history and reality of N-Space. During the Last Great Time War, the Dalek Empire broke into the...
tardis.fandom.com tardis.fandom.com
Click to expand...
I have this story, so I'll be sure to look into it.
 
Last edited:
ByAsura said:
It's stated that it'd extend to The Void. Because it operates on a different timescale, the Reality Bomb actually did occur inside The Void (like how it destroyed every parallel universe Rose travelled through before it was even activated), and simply life-wiped it and weakened the walls of universes to the point where inter-dimensional travel was possible.

I'm not exactly sure myself, but I think it could be grounds for at least the higher ends of Tier 1.

After the universe ends, it's simply a total absence of time and space (like the Black Void in the OP), but the Anonymity is total indeterminacy/uncertainty both physically and philosophically. So, for example, you can't say if it's composed of everything, nothing, or both.
  • They opened, not on lands beyond the City, but on empty void: not even vacuum, for there was no space for vacuum to occupy, but on the sheer absence of existence. To gaze out of a Gate was, for a time, to know the oblivion which the resurrectees of the City had been forever denied.
  • ...absorbed into an increasing volume of what archemathicists are calling ‘apophatic space’, the Kane News anchor is saying, visibly worried now. At present the sphere is less than a gigameter in diameter, but the effect is spreading at what appears to be exponential speed...
  • And, all the while, a graphic shows the spread across the City of that sinister cloud of unknowing.
  • Out there, beyond the City’s walls, the billions of successful leapers arc gently through the void, beginning graceful orbits under their own momentum and the City’s gravity, wondering what to do next. The void they occupy, however alien, however strictly unreal it may be, is at least known and familiar. The new, the indescribable which has invaded the City now, cannot be called any of these things. It is a region – a sphere, as far as its dimensions can be measured – of ‘apophatic space’, a term which simply means that nothing whatsoever can be said about it.
  • One could not positively say that they no longer existed, for the apophasis was neither existence nor nonexistence, just as it was neither real nor unreal, living nor non-living. It was equally possible – and equally untrue – to say that everybody within the sphere of indeterminacy was unharmed, dead, cancelled, or somehow transfigured.
  • Some welcomed it, of course, hailing it as God: the long-awaited, too-long deferred Omega Point in which humanity would, finally, evolve into the ultimate Unknown and achieve its destiny. They waited with submission till it took them, or threw themselves in gratefully.
  • For now, her speed and that of the expanding other are identical, and the goddess Civitata faces the end of all her knowledge, an angel hovering before a wall of neither-nothing-nor-not-nothing.
  • Civitata knows a fellow god when she sees one – and an almost infinitely superior one, at that. This wall of ignorance she faces has consumed her entire physical structure in less than 24 hours, leaving nothing but the avatar she constructed to represent her within her own interior, plus a wristwatch.
Even if you don't truly know what absolute nothing is, you have an idea of what it entails because you just have to imagine the opposite of existence. The Anonymity is totally unknown and unknowable, implying there's not really even a frame of reference that can be applied to it.

Compassion has to communicate with it by imagining how it'd communicate with her and applying that to the Anonymity (which seemingly succeeds, because the parlance of the Anonymity in GOD ENCOMPASSES is the same as A Hundred Words from a Civil War).
  • The Anonymity could not be said to speak, any more than any other statement can validly be made about it. Facing it, words form in Civitata’s imagination, speculations as to what it might say were it somehow, impossibly, capable of articulation; and for the moment she decides to assume that it is not she who is imagining them.
  • In Civitata’s overactive imagination, a momentary ripple crosses the sheer wall of unknowingness as it encroaches steadily upon her.
When the Anonymity consumes the city, it exists in the timeless, spaceless void. This is what they mean by 'void' and 'non-void' (presumably there for the reader's benefit, because it can't be determined if Anonymity is real, unreal, or both).
  • The Anonymity is so large now that it no longer appears as a sphere: indeed, without space there is nothing for it to be spherical in. Instead there are two regions: void which is known and non-void which is unknown and unknowable. And in the former, just outpacing the latter’s encroachment, a woman’s figure turns to face the Anonymity.

I have this story, so I'll be sure to look into it.
Click to expand...
do you have any more especifications?
 
ByAsura said:
It's stated that it'd extend to The Void. Because it operates on a different timescale, the Reality Bomb actually did occur inside The Void (like how it destroyed every parallel universe Rose travelled through before it was even activated), and simply life-wiped it and weakened the walls of universes to the point where inter-dimensional travel was possible.

I'm not exactly sure myself, but I think it could be grounds for at least the higher ends of Tier 1.

After the universe ends, it's simply a total absence of time and space (like the Black Void in the OP), but the Anonymity is total indeterminacy/uncertainty both physically and philosophically. So, for example, you can't say if it's composed of everything, nothing, or both.
  • They opened, not on lands beyond the City, but on empty void: not even vacuum, for there was no space for vacuum to occupy, but on the sheer absence of existence. To gaze out of a Gate was, for a time, to know the oblivion which the resurrectees of the City had been forever denied.
  • ...absorbed into an increasing volume of what archemathicists are calling ‘apophatic space’, the Kane News anchor is saying, visibly worried now. At present the sphere is less than a gigameter in diameter, but the effect is spreading at what appears to be exponential speed...
  • And, all the while, a graphic shows the spread across the City of that sinister cloud of unknowing.
  • Out there, beyond the City’s walls, the billions of successful leapers arc gently through the void, beginning graceful orbits under their own momentum and the City’s gravity, wondering what to do next. The void they occupy, however alien, however strictly unreal it may be, is at least known and familiar. The new, the indescribable which has invaded the City now, cannot be called any of these things. It is a region – a sphere, as far as its dimensions can be measured – of ‘apophatic space’, a term which simply means that nothing whatsoever can be said about it.
  • One could not positively say that they no longer existed, for the apophasis was neither existence nor nonexistence, just as it was neither real nor unreal, living nor non-living. It was equally possible – and equally untrue – to say that everybody within the sphere of indeterminacy was unharmed, dead, cancelled, or somehow transfigured.
  • Some welcomed it, of course, hailing it as God: the long-awaited, too-long deferred Omega Point in which humanity would, finally, evolve into the ultimate Unknown and achieve its destiny. They waited with submission till it took them, or threw themselves in gratefully.
  • For now, her speed and that of the expanding other are identical, and the goddess Civitata faces the end of all her knowledge, an angel hovering before a wall of neither-nothing-nor-not-nothing.
  • Civitata knows a fellow god when she sees one – and an almost infinitely superior one, at that. This wall of ignorance she faces has consumed her entire physical structure in less than 24 hours, leaving nothing but the avatar she constructed to represent her within her own interior, plus a wristwatch.
Even if you don't truly know what absolute nothing is, you have an idea of what it entails because you just have to imagine the opposite of existence. The Anonymity is totally unknown and unknowable, implying there's not really even a frame of reference that can be applied to it.

Compassion has to communicate with it by imagining how it'd communicate with her and applying that to the Anonymity (which seemingly succeeds, because the parlance of the Anonymity in GOD ENCOMPASSES is the same as A Hundred Words from a Civil War).
  • The Anonymity could not be said to speak, any more than any other statement can validly be made about it. Facing it, words form in Civitata’s imagination, speculations as to what it might say were it somehow, impossibly, capable of articulation; and for the moment she decides to assume that it is not she who is imagining them.
  • In Civitata’s overactive imagination, a momentary ripple crosses the sheer wall of unknowingness as it encroaches steadily upon her.
When the Anonymity consumes the city, it exists in the timeless, spaceless void. This is what they mean by 'void' and 'non-void' (presumably there for the reader's benefit, because it can't be determined if Anonymity is real, unreal, or both).
  • The Anonymity is so large now that it no longer appears as a sphere: indeed, without space there is nothing for it to be spherical in. Instead there are two regions: void which is known and non-void which is unknown and unknowable. And in the former, just outpacing the latter’s encroachment, a woman’s figure turns to face the Anonymity.
Click to expand...
Regarding anonymity, I reckon it might involve transduality and other intriguing aspects described about it. However, as you mentioned, I think that places it on a large tier 1 level; it should eventually escalate to the Time Lords, enemy, and beings of that caliber and beyond. I'd also like to pose a question— última, it was mentioned that non-spatial/non-temporal things can reach Low 1-A/1-A. Could this somehow impact the time vortex, which is repeatedly described in that manner? I also don't know how things from set theory and Platonism affect the review.
 
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