Majora's Mask Link base upgrade

[GiverOfThePeace]

Requested to make a seperate thread on this. Simply, Link has the triforce of courage.

There's also this feat LephyrTheRevanchist brought up about Link flipping the planet with light arrows:

https://youtu.be/aRRwh77IjhY?t=9m33s

Should upgrade him whatever tier ToP Ganondorf is going to be.


To point out possible refutes before they happen.

~It wouldn't be an outlier since the High 6-C feats are done by the monsters merely existing so it's done stupidly casual.

~Link's ToC is never truly removed in Majora's Mask hence why he's confirmed to still have it.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Responding to it being a specific effect of hitting the Tower's jewel: Yes, naturally. However, the arrow provides the energy to trigger the effect, so it would scale to the flip.

"Perception manipulation"; unlikely. Link is literally, physically inverted in the tower, i.e he is walking on the ceilings, etc. Besides, we outright see the flip itself is literal (with Link "falling" onto the ceiling).

"Spatial manipulation"; of course, however, the flip itself was done through the power of the arrows, so it would still scale to it.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Don't the Light arrows damage Ganondorf anyway, isn't that proof enough of their AP?

 

[TriforcePower1]

I disagree with the upgrades.

Link having the ToC isn't enough ground for High 5-A. TP Link had it for the whole game, but he clearly wasn't High 5-A till the end of the game. Same but to a lesser extent in Ocarina of Time.

Link flipping the dungeon can be way easier explained with gravity manipulation. It would be gravity manipulation regardless because flipping the planet wouldn't have changed the centre of gravity.

MM!Light Arrows =/= Other Light Arrows in the Zelda series.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

"Perception manipulation"; unlikely. Link is literally, physically inverted in the tower, i.e he is walking on the ceilings, etc. Besides, we outright see the flip itself is literal (with Link "falling" onto the ceiling).

To add on to this, using lens of truth shows you're still upside down.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Link having the ToC isn't enough ground for High 5-A. TP Link had it for the whole game, but he clearly wasn't High 5-A till the end of the game. Same but to a lesser extent in Ocarina of Time.

Link flipping the dungeon can be way easier explained with gravity manipulation. It would be gravity manipulation regardless because flipping the planet wouldn't have changed the centre of gravity.

MM!Light Arrows =/= Other Light Arrows in the Zelda series.

Where is he confirmed to truly have it? Cause at that point he should be High 5-A especially from how the triforce profile has it. Not to mention that this Link is Adult Link in a child's body without the medallions. So I don't see how that would suddenly change anything.

I'm assuming you didn't read zephr's rely: "of course, however, the flip itself was done through the power of the arrows, so it would still scale to it" it'd just be gravity manip along wiwth an AP feat.

It literally has the EXACT same properties as the light arrows from OoT, if even causes the same effects and everything.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Link flipping the dungeon can be way easier explained with gravity manipulation. It would be gravity manipulation regardless because flipping the planet wouldn't have changed the centre of gravity.

We outright see it literally flipping in the scene.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Why would it be gravity manipulation? Where does that come from?

And why would Majora's Mask light arrows be any different from any other game whatsoever?


Honestly, though, our Zelda profiles are a mess - most of them don't make any sense. Like Wind Waker Link scaling to ToP Ganon even though when Link fought Ganon - they both lost their Triforce pieces.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

If you walk into stone tower you see the sky while in the dungeon:

https://youtu.be/aRRwh77IjhY?t=674

 

[TriforcePower1]

Where is he confirmed to truly have it? Cause at that point he should be High 5-A especially from how the triforce profile has it. Not to mention that this Link is Adult Link in a child's body without the medallions. So I don't see how that would suddenly change anything.

I'm assuming you didn't read zephr's rely: "of course, however, the flip itself was done through the power of the arrows, so it would still scale to it" it'd just be gravity manip along wiwth an AP feat.

It literally has the EXACT same properties as the light arrows from OoT, if even causes the same effects and everything.

You mean TP Link or MM Link? The former is shown several times in cutscenes, the latter in Hyrule Historia. The main things that change are: Lack of medallions, lack of Master Sword, Link maybe not even knowing he had it and his body becoming weaker as he's now only 10.

There's no AP feat. Whatever that thing is, it would be gravity manipulation regardless. "Flipping the planet" would make everything upside down, as stuff is still attracted to the planet's center of mass. So it's most likely just gravity manipulation. And it wouldn't even be on Link's page because it's an effect he can achieve only by hitting the jewel in Stone Tower.

Even the Light Arrows in Wind Waker have the same properties, but that doesn't change that they could have different APs. In fact, if we assume that Light Arrows are as strong in Wind Waker as in OoT, we would end up with having base Ganondorf with High 5-A durability. I think you can see the problem here.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Why would it be gravity manipulation? Where does that come from?

Because there's no such thing as "flipping the planet to go upside down". Everything would still be attracted to the planet's center of mass, so it would change nothing. Heck, the day and night cycle can be seen as "flipping" the planet, but we don't wake up on the ceiling during the night.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

There's no AP feat. Whatever that thing is, it would be gravity manipulation regardless. "Flipping the planet" would make everything upside down, as stuff is still attracted to the planet's center of mass. So it's most likely just gravity manipulation. And it wouldn't even be on Link's page because it's an effect he can achieve only by hitting the jewel in Stone Tower.

Yeah, and chest fall to the otherside of the dungeon if there's nothing blocking it. So you have to constantly flip the thing to complete it.

The effect thing already addressed. The energy comes from the arrows, they scale.

And even if we disregard this, Link would scale to 1/4th Majora's planet bust, like the Giants, since he have access to the Giant's Mask, hurts Twin Mold with it, and can also hurt it with the Light Arrows.

Edit: He can also slightly hurt, or at least stun, Skull Kid, whom we rate here as having Planet Level durability, so there is another thing to scale him to.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Amd again, it can't be just gravity manipulation. We literally see the thing flipping in the scene.

 

[TriforcePower1]

@Lephyr

I'm saying that he inverted gravity in the whole Stone Tower, I may have expressed myself badly here, sorry.

Basic thing is, there's no way in which you can move the planet that would make you go upside down.

Giant's mask gives you the power A giant. "You got the Giant's Mask! Within this mask lies the might of a giant, but can you use its power anywhere?". Giant here is used simply as "big human", not as one of Termina's giant deity.

Thank goodness it also doesn't make Link look like them or I would have lost several days of sleep

And only Majora's Mask's dura is 5-B, not Skull Kid's.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Giant's mask gives you the power A giant. "You got the Giant's Mask! Within this mask lies the might of a giant, but can you use its power anywhere?". Giant here is used simply as "big human", not as one of Termina's giant deity.

We scale it's lifting strength to them.

I've always interpret it as literally using the might of the Giants, specially with the theme of the tower and how "the power of the goddess' flips it".

And again, we literally see it flip. Can't be just gravity stuff.

 

[TriforcePower1]

I mean, then that's wrong, too. Giant's mask clearly refers to making Link just bigger, not one of Termina's giants. He does even remotely look like them, too.

Yes, we see it flip. Now I'll ask you: what exactly flipped?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Also, found this:

"If you shoot that which releases the sacred golden light into the blood-stained, red emblem outside the temple... it shall rearrange things, in which the earth is born in the heavens and the moon is born on the earth." - Garo Master

So we have a description from the game itself, although vague, of what implies to hit the jewel on the tower.

Coupled with the effect of seeing it outright flip, there is really no other explanation of what happens.

The tower flips, and along with it, the planet, as we see the skies upside down (even the moon is there), the "ground" on top of Link.

Edit: Plus, are there any other Giants in MM other than the four? Yeah, sure, 'a' Giant, but we don't know of any other except for the four.

 

[TriforcePower1]

I can see where you're coming from, but even doing it as you are saying wouldn't make stuff upside down. Link and objects would still be attracted towards the center of the planet, so they would fall into the ground, not staying upside down ignoring the planet's gravity.

Basically: ƒîÄԼഩŠ(person is attracted by gravity to planet). Now let's flip the planet. Ô×í´©ÅƒîÄ (the person is still attracted to the center of the planet and nothing changed).

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Fiction being fiction, as always.

We see the flip, what is described from the game itself implies planetary rearrangement, and after said flip, we see that the skies and the earth has switched places.

There is really no other explanation that doesn't enter into headcanon territory.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

You mean TP Link or MM Link? The former is shown several times in cutscenes, the latter in Hyrule Historia. The main things that change are: Lack of medallions, lack of Master Sword, Link maybe not even knowing he had it and his body becoming weaker as he's now only 10.

There's no AP feat. Whatever that thing is, it would be gravity manipulation regardless. "Flipping the planet" would make everything upside down, as stuff is still attracted to the planet's center of mass. So it's most likely just gravity manipulation. And it wouldn't even be on Link's page because it's an effect he can achieve only by hitting the jewel in Stone Tower.

Even the Light Arrows in Wind Waker have the same properties, but that doesn't change that they could have different APs. In fact, if we assume that Light Arrows are as strong in Wind Waker as in OoT, we would end up with having base Ganondorf with High 5-A durability. I think you can see the problem here.

How is his body remotely weaker? Need I remind that a there are Link's that are young that are still High 5-A here? The entire point of MM is to show he's grown now, most characters don't even view him as a child no longer. Link's fully aware he has it he's aware that he has it at the end of ocarina of time there's literally zero reason to assume he doesn't have it anymore.

How is that not an AP feat. Just stating it's not an AP feat doesn't make it not that. We've all just explained to you why it'd be an AP feat. The onus is on you to prove why it wouldn't be. It being hax doesn't suddenly change the fact that itself powerrs the tabelts to flip.

Actually no they don't, The light arrows in WW make the enemies shrink and dissapear. The light arrows in MM and OoT act as just stronger arrows. I don't know where you got "the light arrows are the same in WW". Why would we assume this at all? The light arrrows in WW are outright meant to immobilize him in WW so Link can kill him with the master sword. There's no problem here. You're confusing arbitrary scaling.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

I can see where you're coming from, but even doing it as you are saying wouldn't make stuff upside down. Link and objects would still be attracted towards the center of the planet, so they would fall into the ground, not staying upside down ignoring the planet's gravity.
Basically: ƒîÄԼഩŠ(person is attracted by gravity to planet). Now let's flip the planet. Ô×í´©ÅƒîÄ (the person is still attracted to the center of the planet and nothing changed).

How does this debunk anything? Should we just blatantly point out everything wrong with Zelda physics? The fact that the sun song moves the sun so fast should cause an outright global catastrophe yet it doesn't. So no, this doesn't debunk anything.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

My position:

Light Arrows similar to other games: Neutral

Triforce of Courage scaling: Neutral.

Planet flipping: unquestionable imo.

Giant scaling: Possible, although agree can be a stretch.

Skull Kid scaling: Possible, although agree can be a stretch (though, didn't this same Skull Kid later briefly fought with TP!Link?).

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Skull Kids can fight adult Link and I believe it's the same skull kid that fought TP Link, but don't remember for sure.

 

[TriforcePower1]

I've never stated that MM Link doesn't have the ToC though. And without the Master Sword and other stuuf he had it's more than reasonable that he got weaker, especially because ToC alone isn't enough to warrant High 5-A ratings.

I mean, if it were possible to calc the AP of inverting gravity in an area like Stone Tower, that's fine for me. Though it'd probably be much less than High 6-A.

Okay, admittedly Wind Waker wasn't the best example. Still, I'm mainly trying to show that just because they have some traits in common doesn't mean they also have the same AP.

@Lephyr

I mean, fiction being fiction works only to a certain level. Stuff like this is quite basic, so I doubt it's actually just Zelda being inaccurate. Especially when changing gravity explains everything way better than flipping the planer.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

My final piece of evidence is in regards to the dungeon bosses themselves.

They are capable of keeping the Giants trapped and sealed in the dimension thing. Possible scaling from them would make sense imo, tho again, can agree it's a stretch.

And with that, those are all the feats I know that can upgrade this Link into planet level.

One that is undeniable (again, imo). Two on which I'm neutral. Two that are fairly questionable by themselves. And a final one that is only a "possible" at best.

 

[TriforcePower1]

How does this debunk anything? Should we just blatantly point out everything wrong with Zelda physics? The fact that the sun song moves the sun so fast should cause an outright global catastrophe yet it doesn't. So no, this doesn't debunk anything.

Song of sun is only time manipulation.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

@Lephyr

I mean, fiction being fiction works only to a certain level. Stuff like this is quite basic, so I doubt it's actually just Zelda being inaccurate. Especially when changing gravity explains everything way better than flipping the planer.

But it is unsupported by the scene and the description given by the game.

And I mean, the gimmick is that they wanted a temple that can be flipped. Wether that aligns with gravity or not was probably the least of their concerns.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

I've never stated that MM Link doesn't have the ToC though. And without the Master Sword and other stuuf he had it's more than reasonable that he got weaker, especially because ToC alone isn't enough to warrant High 5-A ratings.
I mean, if it were possible to calc the AP of inverting gravity in an area like Stone Tower, that's fine for me. Though it'd probably be much less than High 6-A.

Okay, admittedly Wind Waker wasn't the best example. Still, I'm mainly trying to show that just because they have some traits in common doesn't mean they also have the same AP.

@Lephyr

I mean, fiction being fiction works only to a certain level. Stuff like this is quite basic, so I doubt it's actually just Zelda being inaccurate. Especially when changing gravity explains everything way better than flipping the planer.

Where did I state you said that MM Link doesn'thave the ToC? That wasn't even a point I brought up. Being weaker then his original High 5-A form slightly isn't going to suddenly drop him down a good 2-3 tiers. I literally linked you a profile where the ToC by itself is listed as High 5-A. Link from Adventure of Link is listed as High 5-A for literally holding the triforce of wisdom.

Comp Link was originally around Low 4-C for planet twisting the planet and I doubt High 6-A AP changes anything it's still legitimate feat(which is still higher then what he's currently rated as) and that's the point.

Except the one example you used didn't even prove that point whatsoever and the point I made about them having the same exact characteristics not similar triforce, same exact characteiristics wasn't even debunked since you admit your own example to trying to debunk the point wasn't even a good one.

I literally linked an example of Zelda not caring about what would happen under the affects of the sun song, wwhy are we suddenly picking and choosing now for Majora's Mask? It being time manipulation is irrelevant Triforce, watch the video and it perfectly explains why the sun song is actually a global disaster.

 

[Sixo_Bullets]

I agree with the upgrades for reasons above.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Bump.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Bump.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

What I personally want to discuss now is the Giant's scaling/Mask.

While the Mask does state it grants the power of a Giant, we don't know of any other in the game.

Also, the dungeon bosses scaling to them. Any thoughts?

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Seeing as the dungeon bosses are the ones keeping them sealed and ruining the worlds they protect it'd make sense for them to scale to them.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Bump.

 

[Dark649]

I will soon explain what i think about this.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Link flipping the Earth during Stone Tower Temple is a chain reaction, so it doesn't scale to anyone. If Link still has the Triforce of Courage in Majora's Mask, he could receive an upgrade as long as he doesn't scale to the 4 temple bosses; they should remain High 6-C. Also need to make note that Majora would still be stronger than him regardless of what rating we decide for those who scale from Ganondorf.

I'll note this, the reason Link in the original Zelda is scales from ToP Ganon is also because he fought Ganon who had it, not just from having ToW. Looking at the scan in the OP, Link still having the Triforce of Courage when he traveled to his original time also makes sense for what happens in Twilight Princess; where Ganondorf suddenly has the Triforce of Power despite being arrested and unable to access the Temple of Time. It was time paradox that caused the plot twist.

I don't mind base Majora's Mask link getting an upgrade, but we'd need to take care of the ratings of those who scale from Ganon first; there's already too many Zelda threads as there are.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

How is it a chain reaction? The temple bosses can keep the giants locked up and sealed and the giants are rated at 5-B. How is someone at least millions of joules lower capable of that? The 4 temple bosses High 6-C feat are done via merely existing. No one here said that Majora wouldn't be stronger then him.

I was pointing out how that profile notes he has the triforce of wisdom as reasoning for why he's at that tier and that would just show that having a piece of the triforce helps you be able to rival ToP. He got the ToP because the Goddesses re-blessed him with it.

There's only like, 3. The 6-B one is clear cut. The only real big isssue are these 2.

 

[Dark649]

Unfortunately, the bosses prevents the Giants from awakening and they are individually Low 5-B+, i don't have problems with that but it might complicate things.

Link had the ToC, but its dormant in him and we never seen the piece glowing in his hand basing on Wind Waker Link activating it. Don't know about the Link with the ToW.

Wind Waker Link, however did not had that control as his weapons as the other Links, he lost to Ganondorf with the TP, so i was planning to put him as at least 6-B+, likely far higher.

Overall every thing should be taken step after step, before the 6-B+ upgrade then the controversial ones.

- The MM Bosses blocking the Giants.

- Base Link and Supressed Majora scaling from the Triforce.

- Ganondorf Endless Night feat.

- And Zant feat.

Note: The Hyrule Historia said that Link hand glowed.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Because it's activated via triggering a switch; we don't scale characters by lighting up candles or flicking buttons. The 4 Giants are currently Low 5-B individually and it was Majora who overpowered them. Sealing them might be considered hax rather than AP, reason Zelda doesn't scale from Calamity Ganon. But actually, I'm a bit more neutral on the 4 temple bosses being Low 5-B, or the other option is giving them two keys for the boss hosts and the masks; with the masks being the stronger key.

Yes, that's why I mentioned I'm more neutral, but the possible Low 5-B upgrades if the individual bosses are agreed to be Low 5-B individually would still be an upgrade and prevent Ganon and the others from being any lower than that.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

A couple of things wrong with this.(Replying to Dark649 first)

Actually Dark the glowing is what gives you the ToC on your hand, WW Link didn't have it beforehand, same with OoT Link. MM Link carried it along with it, it's not laying dornmant, he still has it.

He lost to a Ganon that had like, easily hundreds of years of experience + WW Link is one of the more green people in Zelda, he was completely outskilled, you can see that WW Link could clearly survive hits from a ToP Ganon so he shouldn't be downgraded due to him losing to someone that has a lot more skill then him.

The 6-B one should already go through, there seems to be absolutely nothing wrong with the calc and no one's made mention to what's wrong with it. The keeping the giants sealed is clear cut as well.


Now to DDM

I don't know if you've read above but the light arrow is what powers it to do a flip, the light switch thing is a false equivalence as we're not actively powering the light switch to turn on, we're using a component to turn it on. It's been consistently shown in Zelda verse that magic scales to your physicals, don't know why we're suddenly trying to refer ot hax now. If they're keeping the giants sealed and they couldn't break out of said seal then it should scale to them. Zelda is already at High 5-A from what I see on her profile.