Zelda: Of Giant's and Light Arrows

[Chariot190]

But the duck is from a parallel universe we wouldn't call it a normal Earth duck.

Yeah we would? A duck from a parallel world doesn't make it not a duck. All that's changed is where the duck is from, not the fact it's still a duck.

I don't because your point was bad.

You quite literally did know what my point was, you even alluded to it. If you couldn't pick up on it, that's a you issue.
Given just following the conversation would enable you to get what I was getting at.

I do, because they're from different universes and one would suggest an extremely higher degree of scaling.

So? Who gives a shit if it's higher, lower, or anything in-between, if the evidence points towards the higher one being the case, that's what we'd go with, it could be a billion times higher or lower for all I care, funny numbers being above a certain threshold isn't going to ever be reason enough to actually argue shit.
What matters is if it's right or wrong, all you've said amounts to "it isn't physically the exact same copy of the item, so the items themselves must be different". Which is an inane argument, when everything points to the not being the case.

You also failed to acknowledge any of what I said and simply continued on with the "it's an alt universe so it's different", even though, again, I just established why such an argument falls flat, even showing how Nintendo themselves consider the light arrows to be the exact same thing across multiple games even, bar like, two or three spinoffs. At this point, I actually can call strawman.

I already said even if everything I claimed about the arrows was correct, my point about scaling would still be wrong. Link uses the arrows on multiple enemies canonically. Since they aren't one shot and Link has to fight them, Link would be required to scale in some fashion. It's just that since one version of the game forces you to use them and the other version doesn't, we should only include it as a secondary rating.

No he doesn't? He uses them on Gomezz, Twinmold probably, and that's it in terms of MM, not even Majora because we're told he used FD for that. For OOT, he uses them against Ganondorf canonically, that's it. Thinking on it, besides Twinmold because 3D and Gomezz, the only bossess that they're canonically used on is Ganon.
Other basic enemies being selectively attacked due to player choice is, ironically, the very argument you accused me of, that being game mechanics.
3D is the most recent iteration, and they aren't exactly different canons like REmake or something, 3D would be the most up-to-date iteration, both being canon doesn't mean one can't take precedence.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Yeah we would?

We'd call it a duck from another world, Its not a duck, but an alternate version of a duck that has a different origin than our ducks. So it's different.

You quite literally did know what my point was

If your point was that an item can be similar despite being from different worlds, then you used a terrible comparison. Because we rate every single version of Batman as being different because they come from different worlds. The only time they aren't are when they directly interact with each other, which the MM Light Arrows don't do.

You also failed to acknowledge any of what I said

I did acknowledge it, you just didn't like how I did so. They're from different worlds Chariot and they come from different sources. They're different.

No he doesn't?

He uses it on Gomesse and Twinmold (along with the eye monsters). The only way Link wouldn't scale is if we're only giving Gomess a High 6-A rating with his bad bat shield. I guess it can work out with Tatl's comment.

Majora's Mask 3D

It's Gomess.
Your attacks won't do a thing until you defeat all those bats surrounding it!

Majora's Mask

It's Gomess. There'll be no end to it if you can't get those bats away from it. Does that shed any light on the situation?

asically after all is said and done, anyone on par with ToP Ganon scales to 1/4th of Majora's High 6-A feat due to scaling chain with the Giant Mask and Twinmold. We currently list everyone that would scale already (Unless we're missing some?) as "likely High 6-A" under the possibility that the Triforce of Power made Ganondorf as strong as one of the Giants, but I guess now they just become flat High 6-A without the likely.

So like:

• Any Ganon with the Triforce of Power
• Anyone that fights Ganon with the ToP or scales to someone who does
• Twinmold
• Gomess' Bad Bat Shield

Would the easiest way to go: Giant's Mask -> Twinmold -> Light Arrow -> Ganon?

 

[Dust_Collector]

So like:

• Any Ganon with the Triforce of Power
• Anyone that fights Ganon with the ToP or scales to someone who does
• Twinmold
• Gomess' Bad Bat Shield

Would the easiest way to go: Giant's Mask -> Twinmold -> Light Arrow -> Ganon?

That was roughly the general idea, Ganondorf probably wouldn't have scaled exactly to the Giant's Mask and whatnot but he'd be close enough to slightly backscale.

Although if we go by the scan Chariot brought up earlier of the encyclopedia treating every light arrow in the series as the same then it gets super weird since Ganon even without the Triforce of Power (And by extension the Master Sword) would end up being relative to a light arrow since Ganon is able to withstand Zelda blasting him with light arrows at the end of WW and he had lost his Triforce piece at that point.

Giant's Mask -> Twinmold -> Light Arrow ->= Ganon if we only use MM and OOT Light Arrows

Ganon (With the Triforce of Power) -> Giant's Mask -> Twinmold -> Light Arrow ->= Ganon / Master Sword if we throw WW Light Arrows into the mix. And that's not factoring in the fact that Link by the end of OOT (And by extension ToP Ganon) is potentially several times stronger by end of the game since he keeps having the Sages add their strength to his

I wish they kept Light Arrows as an OOT exclusive, then nobody would have to deal with any of this

 

[SilentLyfe]

Just one thing I wanna bring up, aren’t the light arrows like way more powerful in Wind Waker considering they can one shot any enemy (except Ganon) while they merely stun or require multiple hits as seen in other games?

 

[Qawsedf234]

super weird since Ganon even without the Triforce of Power (And by extension the Master Sword) would end up being relative to a light arrow since Ganon is able to withstand Zelda blasting him with light arrows at the end of WW and he had lost his Triforce piece at that point.

Well, Chariot made a good point with magic power. Just because they're light arrows doesn't mean they're all similar, since Link would be adding his own magic to the arrows. So we could always say that MM/OoT Link just has more magical potential than WW Link. But that might be a stretch in general.

Personally speaking, I would think it would be weird if we're saying an older Link, with Sage assistance and Great Fairy help against a Ganon with the Triforce is using an item weaker to or comparable to a younger version of himself using the weapon against a weaker Ganon.

Ganondorf probably wouldn't have scaled exactly to the Giant's Mask and whatnot but he'd be close enough to slightly backscale.

Would he down scale or just scale? As in, are we saying Ganon < Light Arrow ~ Giant Mask = 1 Giant or are we saying Ganon ~ Light Arrow ~ Giant Mask = 1 Giant?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Just one thing I wanna bring up, aren’t the light arrows like way more powerful in Wind Waker considering they can one shot any enemy (except Ganon) while they merely stun or require multiple hits as seen in other games?

Unless I'm mistaken, light arrows were buffed in every game until they got to Wind Waker when it became an auto-kill on non-bosses.

Looking into it, the wiki for Zelda has the damage values for various weapons:

• OoT: Light Arrows have a "2" damage value
• MM: Light Arrows have a "4" damage value
• WW: Auto kill on normal enemies

So it just got buffed as time went on. Well until spirit tracks. Though even there the weapon does more damage than everything else (other than a bomb).

 

[Dust_Collector]

Personally speaking, I would think it would be weird if we're saying an older Link, with Sage assistance and Great Fairy help against a Ganon with the Triforce is using an item weaker to or comparable to a younger version of himself using the weapon against a weaker Ganon.

Well by the point adult Link fights him Ganon had become the demon king so he ends gaining a weakness to light/holy stuff like the arrows, but yeah it is pretty weird overall.

Would he down scale or just scale? As in, are we saying Ganon < Light Arrow ~ Giant Mask = 1 Giant or are we saying Ganon ~ Light Arrow ~ Giant Mask = 1 Giant?

He'd probably down scale but it'd be to such a minor extent it'd pretty much be the same as just scaling him straight up

 

[Qawsedf234]

He'd probably down scale but it'd be to such a minor extent it'd pretty much be the same as just scaling him straight up

Alright.

Well anyways I'm good with the AP upgrades.

Though to ask, why does Ganondorf still have the Class Z rating? I thought we dropped we were going to drop that rating or am I mistaken?

 

[Dust_Collector]

I don't think we ever came to conclusion on his Class Z rating, the lifting strength CRT for Zelda kinda went silent after a while

 

[Qawsedf234]

We should probably get that done.

Anyways I'm good with the changes. For fairness, we should wait a bit (maybe a day or so) for @SamanPatou to comment to so see if they want to further discuss the issues they had previously. Otherwise, I think the changes can be applied.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Well anyways I'm good with the AP upgrades.

Good with just the inital proposal of ToP Ganon level characters scaling or also fine with the potential of base Ganon level characters scaling? Dunno if you made your stance on that more clear since for some reason every webpage on my laptop is currently mashing all the text on the page together whenever I try scrolling even a little bit so I can't make out most of the comments in the thread atm

 

[Qawsedf234]

Good with just the inital proposal of ToP Ganon level characters scaling or also fine with the potential of base Ganon level characters scaling?

Probably safer to just go with ToP Ganon in my view.

 

[Chariot190]

Though to ask, why does Ganondorf still have the Class Z rating? I thought we dropped we were going to drop that rating or am I mistaken?

Because calcing the actual yield is a pain in the ass and might even dip into calc stacking, only thing I could see against it, is how it all takes place within one scene and all the same event so it doesn't check off our issues for calc stacking but shrug, does seem a bit inflated to me

Probably safer to just go with ToP Ganon in my view.

I agree with this tbh, worst case scenario, it was Zelda using them so they wouldn't inherently be as strong as Link's or what not plus Ganon had an innate weakness to holy by that time

Spoiler

We'd call it a duck from another world, Its not a duck, but an alternate version of a duck that has a different origin than our ducks. So it's different.

Literally still a duck, no different than calling a duck from canada and a duck from the states, both a duck, they aren't any different, come from different places but functionally and physically the same.

If your point was that an item can be similar despite being from different worlds, then you used a terrible comparison. Because we rate every single version of Batman as being different because they come from different worlds. The only time they aren't are when they directly interact with each other, which the MM Light Arrows don't do.

No we don't? I even gave an example of a Batman who is not only physically identical, but one we rate as such?
No but you know what the Light Arrows do interact with? Link. something I had already pointed out as the connecting line between them, something that, lo and behold, grants evidence of them being the same, unfortunately, you keep failing to comment on that and hyperfocusing "well they aren't physically the same", while ignoring all evidence on the contrary.

I did acknowledge it, you just didn't like how I did so. They're from different worlds Chariot and they come from different sources. They're different.

Yeah and I explained why "different sources", in this case, isn't an actual argument because the source isn't actually any different, the source is actually the same, that being Link's magical power, which would be the same between both games if not weaker in Majora, or if you want to goon out an argument and say it's the Great Fairy, then it still applies as it's still the case for both games as he got access to his magic the same way in both cases.
You'd need to prove that 1. Link's magic gauge isn't actually his magic. 2. The Great Fairy's vary by whole magnitudes, even though you've already gone on record and stated various enemies and such are identical as well.
Otherwise, the exact same item draws from the exact same power source, taking the exact same amount of power to cast and as they take the same amount of power to use, they output the same amount of power because that's how magic works.

He uses it on Gomesse and Twinmold (along with the eye monsters). The only way Link wouldn't scale is if we're only giving Gomess a High 6-A rating with his bad bat shield. I guess it can work out with Tatl's comment.

Yeah, more or elss what I was getting at, Link can't actually hurt any of the things in question normally anyway, he needs the light arrows in said cases, for Gomesse, he gets rid of the shield he can't do anything about, and then attacks a weak point that is far weaker and doesn't scale to the shielding.

 

[Dust_Collector]

'aight so ToP level peeps get the scaling it is. Obviously waiting a little bit in case Saman or someone has something else they want to bring up about this.

Whipped up some quick and rough justifications for the new scaling.

Ganondorf:
Attack Potency: Multi-Continent level (Capable of harming himself with his own magic)

Durability: Multi-Continent level (Can withstand being struck by Light Arrows, which are strong enough to damage Twinmold)

Twinmold:
Attack Potency: Multi-Continent level (Comparable to Link with the Giant's Mask, which grants him the might of one of the Four Giants)

Durability: Multi-Continent level (Can withstand numerous blows from Link with the Giant's Mask)

MM Link:
Attack Potency: Large Island level, Multi-Continent level with the Giant's Mask (The mask grants him the might of one of the Four Giants) and Light Arrows (The Light Arrows are strong enough to damage Twinmold)

Anyone whose fought Ganon doesn't really need their justifications changed to anything beyond just being able to fight Ganon)

 

[XXKINGXX69]

'aight so ToP level peeps get the scaling it is. Obviously waiting a little bit in case Saman or someone has something else they want to bring up about this.

Whipped up some quick and rough justifications for the new scaling.

Ganondorf:
Attack Potency: Multi-Continent level (Capable of harming himself with his own magic)

Durability: Multi-Continent level (Can withstand being struck by Light Arrows, which are strong enough to damage Twinmold)

Twinmold:
Attack Potency: Multi-Continent level (Comparable to Link with the Giant's Mask, which grants him the might of one of the Four Giants)

Durability: Multi-Continent level (Can withstand numerous blows from Link with the Giant's Mask)

MM Link:
Attack Potency: Large Island level, Multi-Continent level with the Giant's Mask (The mask grants him the might of one of the Four Giants) and Light Arrows (The Light Arrows are strong enough to damage Twinmold)

Anyone whose fought Ganon doesn't really need their justifications changed to anything beyond just being able to fight Ganon)

Igos du Ikana in MM can deflect light arrows

 

[Chariot190]

Igos du Ikana in MM can deflect light arrows

You get them after you fight him tho
In both games

He's probably just programmed to deflect arrows in general so going back to fight him (when really you should be going to fight Majora) causes a fucky. Because Igos sure as **** ain't stronger than the 3 bosses that came right after him, who all can't do that, especially when that needs to be defeated by them (Gomess).

 

[Qawsedf234]

Because Igos sure as **** ain't stronger than the 3 bosses that came right after him,

Igos stated his entire army couldn't breach the tower, so it's unlikely he would scale to Gomess or Twinmold.

 

[SamanPatou]

Sorry for the silence, I was writing this message below, when I got distracted and totally forgot about the matter. I'm posting that anyway, and after reading the other messages, I still think it's a bit of a long stretch to compare Giant Link to the Giant Deities out of the word alone, but I won't die on that hill, if more people want to go with it, so be it.
Still, I'd say it'd be at least safer to put the High 6-A as a possibly, rather than a straight up value.

I still think there aren't enough evidences to connect the mask to the deities. "A giant" could still refer to the idea of a giant, instead of the Four Giants, which aren't named directly. And while both the mask and the deities have the name "Kyojin", that means literally giant human, so it remains a generic term.
Also, the mask does indeed contain power in itself, but there's no reference to a past fifth giant whose power could be trapped there, and seems more akin to other masks which bestow various powers because of their own magical properties.

 

[Chariot190]

"A giant" could still refer to the idea of a giant, instead of the Four Giants, which aren't named directly. \

While it's possible, that's very, very, unlikely to be the case. And they very well could be named directly, I mean, they're literally "Giant", that's it, can't refer to them by anything else tbh. I know this isn't quite an argument, but no way in **** did Nintendo put in a "Giant Mask" which "grants the strength of a giant" in a game all about finding these 4 giants to stop the end of the world, and expect people not to immediately draw connections to the two things. Like surely they'd know better?

And while both the mask and the deities have the name "Kyojin", that means literally giant human, so it remains a generic term.

Wait no, that's actually a very good point, but against you, unfortunately, if the mask was just referring to being large or how some enemies, like your previous argument about the bosses, being "giant", implicate the mask might just be how he gets large, it wouldn't actually be the Kyojin mask, it'd use one of the very, very, many different words for "large/big/giant/colossal/huge/gigantic/etc" or even words that entail the act of growing large or what not given how hyperspecific japanese is, that exists in the japanese language that refer to the size of something and so on.
The fact it uses Kyojin, a term for "Giant Human", in a game where there's these 4 giant human like entities referred to by and called kyojin, all but kinda insinuates the mask is referring to them over anything else or growing and being large, as if that is truly all it was, they'd have probably just used a more apt word because god knows japan has enough of those.

Also, the mask does indeed contain power in itself, but there's no reference to a past fifth giant whose power could be trapped there, and seems more akin to other masks which bestow various powers because of their own magical properties.

It could just be the species itself also that could be because Skull Kid only ever knew 4 giants and termina and everything in it is based on his knowledge and preconceptions because the encyclopedia is ******* garbage

 

[Theglassman12]

Wouldn’t this also upgrade any other link with the light arrow if it’s getting that big of an upgrade?

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Wouldn’t this also upgrade any other link with the light arrow if it’s getting that big of an upgrade?

Not all the light arrows are the same thing

You get them after you fight him tho
In both games

He's probably just programmed to deflect arrows in general so going back to fight him (when really you should be going to fight Majora) causes a fucky. Because Igos sure as **** ain't stronger than the 3 bosses that came right after him, who all can't do that, especially when that needs to be defeated by them (Gomess).

Maybe the other 3 bosses aren't stronger than Igos, or they just don't deflect stuff.

I think OoT might not scale to this. Twinmold's remains are his exoskeleton, which take no damage from attacks unless it hits the weak points. In the fight against Majora, any of Link's attacks are able to damage the exoskeleton much easier which means his weapons can get a lot stronger over time which includes light arrows

 

[Theglassman12]

they hardly function any different from one another unless there's any statements that they vary between iterations.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

they hardly function any different from one another unless there's any statements that they vary between iterations.

They are totally different things in the different games you can see they have completely different designs and all

 

[Theglassman12]

Different designs mean Jack shit in them functioning different. Do you have any evidence that the light arrows aren’t always the same despite doing the exact same thing across the games?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Do you have any evidence that the light arrows aren’t always

The ones from MM come from a parallel universe and the source of them is thematically different compared to the other games.

That would by and large make them different things.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Oh oops forgot about this

 

[Dust_Collector]

So we treating all the lights arrows as the same or just the OOT and MM ones or are we treating every version of the arrows as being different? Last few posts going in different directions regarding this.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

The one in wind waker is different

 

[Dust_Collector]

sooooo...

what we doing about light arrows?

 

[XXKINGXX69]

sooooo...

what we doing about light arrows?

Twinmold's remains are his exoskeleton, which take no damage from attacks unless it hits the weak points. In the fight against Majora, any of Link's attacks are able to damage the exoskeleton much easier which means his weapons can get a lot stronger over time which includes light arrows

 

[Dust_Collector]

Twinmold's remains are his exoskeleton, which take no damage from attacks unless it hits the weak points. In the fight against Majora, any of Link's attacks are able to damage the exoskeleton much easier which means his weapons can get a lot stronger over time which includes light arrows

Twinmold's weak points can still take a beating from Giant Link so they'd still be in roughly the same ballpark. Also Link canonically uses the FD mask in the fight against Majora so any of his attacks being able to damage Twinmold's remains don't count since he'd actually just be slamming everything in the boss fight with the helix sword, also I'd be more inclined to say Twinmold's remains are just way weaker than Twinmold itself instead of Link's weapons just getting stronger for no real reason even if we did take into account normal weapons destroying it.

 

[Chariot190]

Not how it works, you need an actual statement for that, or at least an actual implication his weapon power grows (Which the game lacks entirely outside of this one example which doesn't even hold up). It's just as likely that the video game is a video game and the totally different thing in terms of actual game design isn't going to be on par with the previous encounter because that'd be actual cancer to fight.

And it's pretty obvious that's the case too, don't forget Twinmold isn't the only enemy in the Majora fight, so is Odolwa's and other boss' remains.
And yet, all remains have the same HP and take damage from the same things. If Link's equipment did increase, why would the 4th boss and the 1st boss, suddenly be taking the exact same damage from shit despite Link's equipment having allegedly gotten a drastic boost?
You'd think the odolwa remains would be one shot, not take the same amount of hits, but that isn't the case, this very remains argument contradicts itself as if it was true, the other 3 remains would be straight up one shot, which tells us there isnt actually any intent to have what you're suggesting be the case.

This also doesn't matter anyway because Fierce Deity fights Majora, not Link.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

also I'd be more inclined to say Twinmold's remains are just way weaker than Twinmold itself instead of Link's weapons just getting stronger for no real reason even if we did take into account normal weapons destroying it.

Twinmold's exoskeleton itself is the thing that tanks those hits in his boss fight. His remains in the final boss are his exoskeleton, and I doubt the exoskeleton just loses durability for no reason

Also Link canonically uses the FD mask in the fight against Majora so any of his attacks being able to damage Twinmold's remains don't count since he'd actually just be slamming everything in the boss fight with the helix sword

I've only watched gameplay of MM, does Link no longer have the ability to use other weapons in FD?

Twinmold's weak points can still take a beating from Giant Link so they'd still be in roughly the same ballpark.

I only mentioned all this to say the light arrows could grow stronger so scaling to other Links might be dubious

Not how it works, you need an actual statement for that, or at least an actual implication his weapon power grows (Which the game lacks entirely outside of this one example which doesn't even hold up). It's just as likely that the video game is a video game and the totally different thing in terms of actual game design isn't going to be on par with the previous encounter because that'd be actual cancer to fight.

And it's pretty obvious that's the case too, don't forget Twinmold isn't the only enemy in the Majora fight, so is Odolwa's and other boss' remains.
You'd think the odolwa remains would be one shot, not take the same amount of hits, but that isn't the case, this very remains argument contradicts itself as if it was true, the other 3 remains would be straight up one shot, which tells us there isnt actually any intent to have what you're suggesting be the case.

This also doesn't matter anyway because Fierce Deity fights Majora, not Link.

This is an actual implication. Are you saying its just a game mechanic? I don't think this isn't a canon game mechanic

And yet, all remains have the same HP and take damage from the same things. If Link's equipment did increase, why would the 4th boss and the 1st boss, suddenly be taking the exact same damage from shit despite Link's equipment having allegedly gotten a drastic boost?

Good point I never thought of that, this makes it all confusing

 

[Qawsedf234]

I've only watched gameplay of MM, does Link no longer have the ability to use other weapons in FD?

There's a "Lore" solution and a "Gameplay" solution. Gameplay wise Link has various items that he can use to defeat or damage Majora, but every source that talks about the fight states that Link used the Fierce Deity's mask for the fight.

So canonically Link never battled Majora in his base form. He got all the masks, did all the side activity and was given the FD mask; which he then used to fight Majora.

 

[Dust_Collector]

So moving past anything to do with the FD Mask letting Link beat the shit outta Majora, what's the plan here?

 

[Qawsedf234]

If we're considering the remake as prime canon material, then the only solution is that Link would either need some type of durability negation with Light Arrows or they would have to be rated at High 6-A.

 

[Dust_Collector]

bump

 

[SilentLyfe]

If we're considering the remake as prime canon material, then the only solution is that Link would either need some type of durability negation with Light Arrows or they would have to be rated at High 6-A.

So what's the better solution?

 

[Qawsedf234]

I think the text implies more that since it's holy it destroys evil, which I think leans more towards durab negation but idk.

 

[Chariot190]

The Light Arrows haven't really ever displayed duraneg, the closest thing is in WW where they just vaporize dudes not called Ganon, but that's less duraneg, and more they're just so powerful they vaporize basic mobs. They can harm evil, but that's kinda like how Superman isn't weak to magic, but moreso he's just as vulnerable to it as anything else would be, instead of being basically immune because of invulnerability, and that's mostly in regard to Ganondorf in particular, not everything else like random moblin 69 or in this case, flying centipede thing.