Dust_Collector
They/Them- 7,086
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Gonna give this a bump, wanna get this done before I slam down another upgrade for Zelda to bump some peeps up to High 6-C.
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Zelda: Of Giant's and Light Arrows
- Thread starter Dust_Collector
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I disagree. It's mentioned a couple times that the scared and holy aspects can destroy evil
To me it's more about light/holiness being effective against evil, which is more of a durability negation thing than a strength thing.
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You know there's a difference between being vulnerable to something and it being actively weak to it right? Or in your case, an item having the ability to ignore durability
>And here is a weapon that can penetrate the Evil King's defenses... The power given to the chosen ones... The sacred Light Arrow!
This isn't saying it's duraneg, it's saying it's one of a few weapons that can even hurt the dude in general, because Ganon has built-in invulnerability to most things.
Literally says it's a power up, which it is, because they're way the **** stronger
Smiting evil isn't duraneg.
Again says it's a power up, being able to effect evil doesn't mean it's duraneg.
Yes, again, see point 1.
Literally reiterating the exact thing I said, this quite literally is going against your point.
Yeah, he's vulnerable to them? Doesn't mean they're duraneg, to compare, he's immune to basically everything else.
And this one straight up says they're strong enough to do it.
My brother in Christ, all you posted is statements that corroborate my claim, not yours.
You even posted statements saying it's a power-up, and in one case can harm it simply because it's strong enough, and the rest of the statements involve bypassing Ganon's defenses, as in the thing that makes him basically immune to attacks in general.
And even if what you're suggesting is true (It's half true, but you're kinda misinterpreting it), you'd have to prove funny centipede thing has magical defenses that protect it from damage like Ganon
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I'm not seeing it. They all say that holy/scared injury can pierce evil and target evil. Its aspect of their sacred energy rather than strength.
I'm not getting into another multi-week long conversation with you because neither of us are budging here so others can decide and we'll just go with majority opinion.
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It's basically a Master Sword situation, the sword works against evil, can bypass an evil being's invulnerability and a bunch of funny other meme stuff including power null and protection against evil magics, but like, it still has to actually damage them.
An actual duraneg item would be something like the ancient arrow which just goes "lmao ur ded".
"Bow of Light: Princess Zelda gave you this bow and arrow for the battle with Dark Beast Ganon. When wielded by the hero, it fires arrows of pure light strong enough to oppose the Calamity."
"You got the Light Arrow! Set it to (C) to power up your arrows. The light of justice shall target evil!"
"You got the Light Arrow! Set it to (C) and your arrows will be powered up! The light of justice will smite evil!"
But yeah, it's definitely nothing to do with power
The encyclopedia also says they're powerful enough to bring down a Demon King.
You're also ignoring the context around half your statements in that they involve Ganon's invulnerability to anything that isn't sacred or holy, hence why it can pierce his defenses.
Hell I even pointed out a blatant example in them not ignoring durability, because if they did, Ganon would be one shot just like the far less evil mooks the light arrows literally vaporize.
and then you have to prove twinmold's even falls under it anyhow
An actual duraneg item would be something like the ancient arrow which just goes "lmao ur ded".
I'm going to assume youre joking given
"Bow of Light: Princess Zelda gave you this bow and arrow for the battle with Dark Beast Ganon. When wielded by the hero, it fires arrows of pure light strong enough to oppose the Calamity."
"You got the Light Arrow! Set it to (C) to power up your arrows. The light of justice shall target evil!"
"You got the Light Arrow! Set it to (C) and your arrows will be powered up! The light of justice will smite evil!"
But yeah, it's definitely nothing to do with power
The encyclopedia also says they're powerful enough to bring down a Demon King.
You're also ignoring the context around half your statements in that they involve Ganon's invulnerability to anything that isn't sacred or holy, hence why it can pierce his defenses.
Did you really just pre-emptively stone wall? If you have actual proof, post it, and I'll concede, but everything you just posted ties directly into what I said, and some of which straight up contradict you. Is what I would say but you literally just said you aren't even willing to budge your stance, which is kinda ****** up imo.
Hell I even pointed out a blatant example in them not ignoring durability, because if they did, Ganon would be one shot just like the far less evil mooks the light arrows literally vaporize.
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I have but you disagree with it.
It's not me stone walling. I'm just asking for other people to comment like with any other thread. Whatever the majority picks we go with.
You won't change your stance either, so there's no reason to drag this out longer than it has been.
Others can comment. If they agree the light arrows are more AP than durability negation or something similar to that effect, it's fine and the suggested High 6-A changes can be made. If not then the scaling is the same and Link's light arrows just get durability negation against evil characters.
You're misunderstanding my point about durability negation. It's that because they're holy they can pierce the defenses and harm Evil characters.
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Again, you realize over half of those statements flat out contradict your claim right?
You said you refused to change your stance before the conversation even got anywhere
A blatant accusation, and one I don't quite appreciate, especially given I just said I would, if you posted actual tangible non-contradictory proof. You did not and instead just decided not to participate, which is fine, you don't have to if you don't want to, but you proceed to say I won't either? Kinda ****** up ngl chief , that's just your own preconceived notions and bias talking
If we did that we'd have shit like 3-A Saitama.
Unless the thing in question is vague or subjective, actually discussing what checks out first and foremost is a requirement.
You're misunderstanding how they work in the first place to begin with, it's functionally the same as the Master Sword, something we rate as AP, and scale characters to, and from it, because while it has funny meme evil-negating effects, can bypass evil's defenses, and is literally called the "Blade of Evil's Bane", it still has to actually have the AP to harm the thing in question, the light arrow is no different, this is even reflected from a gameplay perspective with it being able to obliterate mooks, straight up vaporizing some enemies, but canonically can not do so to someone like Ganon, Gomez or Twinmold, who are magnitudes more powerful yet evil compared to a funny moblin, unless you want to argue Ganon and the lads actually have resistance to holy weaponry, because that's what would need to be the case in order to explain why they're not one-shot despite logically, being even more susceptible to it, plus we'd have to toss Master Sword scaling too if we go with your light arrow just duraneg and lack AP of their own route.
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I personally don't see it that way. Which is why I said that this isn't going anywhere because I can already see that you aren't going to change your mind and I'm not going to do so either. So there's no reason to discuss this further rather than vote.
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Honestly have to agree with this.
However, I would also say the Light Arrows have an AP component attached to it, given despite Ganon being weak to them, by themselves they have never been enough to defeat him, even when he lacks the ToP (as shown in Wind Waker).
Dust_Collector
They/Them- 7,086
- 7,099
- Thread starter
- #91
Yo Qaw since you're staff could you tag other people who weighed in on this thread earlier?
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I’m a bit lost, what’s the arguments against the High 6-C scaling for light arrows again?
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I actually think the Light Arrows are both AP and Duraned/Damage Boost agains evil.
In front of this I'm still conflicted on whether or not they should have inherent High 6-A out of Twinmold or not.
In front of this I'm still conflicted on whether or not they should have inherent High 6-A out of Twinmold or not.
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That they're holy/sacred and specifically damage evil people because of those properties.
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Was Twinmold evil in nature though? I’m pretty sure it was just a normal monster occupying the territory before link showed up
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It's a masked monster and is either created or influenced by Majora. Since Majora's curse/opening of the Stonetower relies on Twinmold being alive.
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What? When was it ever stated to be created by Majora?
It's a masked creature, but it's also a monster in the middle of an alternate dimension that just kinda exists.
It's no different than how some of the bosses throughout zelda games are just random monsters.
They don't even seem inherently malicious anyway judging off the moon children
It could be influenced by Majora, but that doesn't make it evil, in the same way Skull Kid isn't evil despite being possessed by it.
It's a masked creature, but it's also a monster in the middle of an alternate dimension that just kinda exists.
It's no different than how some of the bosses throughout zelda games are just random monsters.
It could be influenced by Majora, but that doesn't make it evil, in the same way Skull Kid isn't evil despite being possessed by it.
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This is basically my thought as well.
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In the remake it has the giant eye of Majora that all other bosses have.
It's actively causing a curse on the lands and is keeping s giant imprisoned. Both aren't exactly passive or good things.
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So? That doesn't mean he created it, it could very well just be corruption
Actively? Do they say that at any point?
Keeping the giant imprisoned? That's a half truth, Majora trapped them within the bosses
Regardless, you have to actually prove Twinmold is as evil as say, Ganon or what not, because need I remind you, again, that half your statements are in regards to Ganon's invulnerability, multiple statements saying LA's can do what they do because they're powerful, and all while ignoring that dudes like Ganon don't just drop dead when being hit by them, even though the far weaker yet less evil enemies do in fact drop dead
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Which still means it's evil and under my argument weak to the light arrows.
The local deity is only from the Manga afaik. No in game source talks about it being a God or Guardian spirit.
Even if it was, it's still evil, doing evil things and has Majora's corruption in it.
Its keeping the Gates of the Stonetower open. It's why upon its defeat the curse it caused is lifted (unrelated to the blood curse of the land that was always there).
The argument isn't more evil = more damage. But evil is vulnerable to sacred/divine light from the light arrows. Them not being one shot doesn't mean they can't be vulnerable.
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Given your argument involves taking a multitude of statements out of context, can't quite say I care much for it lad.
Wasn't thinking of the manga, actually thinking about it, are any of the beings created by Majora? They never say that any point do they? If anything you'd think they've existed for as long as the temples have.
Doing evil things? That's for debate, but it honestly doesn't matter, prove it's as evil as Ganon or something.
And then realize it wouldn't even matter because the light arrows and Ganon take the same amount of damage from the things, give or take, meaning if it it has damage boost against evil, because it sure as **** doesn't have flat-out duraneg, it'd still result in Ganon scaling to Twinmold.
So?
Yeah nah, you said it was duraneg in your very first post in this topic that it ignores durability.
What's causing Ganon, the most evil ************ in the verse bar like maybe one or two if even, to survive them if they obliterate and vaporize far less evil entities? The answer is simple, he's simply more durable, so he takes less damage from them.
If durability is a factor at all, then it sure as hell isn't duraneg, the best you could argue is that it has a damage boost-Esque effect to them against evil, but if all it is is a damage boost, that still means durability and AP is a factor, and if Ganon can survive even one hit from the things, he at least, downscales from Twinmold, given he's tanking a thing that can ultimately kill or injure a High 6-A. If you go with evil is more susceptible to them, I'd even argue Ganon should be taking more damage from them.
Also I stated multiple times they're vulnerable to them, it's you who argued otherwise that it's duraneg, half your statements are talking about bypassing Ganon's invulnerability to make him vulnerable in the first place.
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In the base game they're all directly related to Majora's mettling and only appear after he came to Termina. The remake gives them all Majora's eyes and has them be weak spots, further suggesting Majora either made or corrupted them.
Durability negation is the wrong term then. My intent was to say that the light arrows are holy/sacred and evil things are weak to that. Vulnerability fits better I guess but it's not really a power in of itself
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Hmm, when do they say they only appear after he showed up?
Corrupted perhaps, made? Bit of a stretch.
That's what I've been saying this whole time
They even negate Ganon's invulnerability.
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They only appear after Majora went to a region and cursed it. Do you have any information that they were there before Majora?
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It's not on me to prove a negative, you know how this works. You made the claim, you prove it. I never said they existed before, or after, I'm just saying it's vague as **** and either could be true so it's not really a good foundation of an argument or good reason to discredit anything.
Also so? In the case of Twinmold it's as easy as Majora rolling up, opening the portal and calling it a day, Twinmold is from a weird alternate dimension portal, if he exudes curses, all Skull Kid would need to do is go "lmao portal" then just leave.
Tbh the fact Majora trapped the the giants within them could be reason enough to suggest otherwise.
Regardless, what part of this actually tackles my point in regards to scaling and what they do? Let's say hypothetically, the light arrows magically dont give the slightest **** about durability or magically do millions of times more damage against anything even remotely evil. That still wouldn't void Ganon scaling to Twinmold, if they both take boosted damage from it, that's still Ganon taking the same damage from something as the High 6-A.
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They only appear after Majora and the remake shows explicit signs that Majora has corrupted or created them.
What evidence do you have to suggest they were there beforehand? Because what limited stuff we have implies a direct connection between their current existence and Majora.
It means that if the arrows don't scale AP wise there's no reason for Ganon to scale AP wise.
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When do they say that? The curses and stuff showed up after the fact, but when do they at any point say Majora created them?
Nice try, again, it's on you to prove Majora created them, not me to prove they always existed.
And so? Being connected doesn't mean he created them lmao, it could as simple as Majora corrupting them, like almost every villainous big bad in a zelda game tends to do to random temple bosses. This doesn't change the fact you have to actually prove as much.
So just ignore literally everything else we know about them and cherry-pick and take a bunch of out of context statements out, gotcha.
Could you actually debate properly? "No u" isn't an argument and that's basically all that sentence amounts to.
Either way, you're objectively wrong on the fact that they don't have an AP component, and everyone else in the thread has said at the very ;east they think they have an Ap compent attacked at the very least even if they do have evil piercing properties.
If they didn't, lo and behold, once again, they'd straight up one shot Ganon, or anything evil in general, there'd be no difference between a moblin, Darknut or whatever and Ganon, but evidently there is, and it isnt resistance or them being more evil than him, acting like they don't deal actual damage and have AP is hilariously ignorant, especially when, in your very own statements that you posted, they say things such as
"Bow of Light: Princess Zelda gave you this bow and arrow for the battle with Dark Beast Ganon. When wielded by the hero, it fires arrows of pure light strong enough to oppose the Calamity."
Do you know what that sentence means? It means they have enough power to oppose the calamity, as in AP. Nowhere in there does it say it's magically negating his durability, the fact it specifies power, in fact, directly implicates the opposite
Or what about this?
"A powerful arrow of divine light capable of bringing down a demon king".
Again, it specifies the things are powerful, not just "lmao evil kill hax".
You're conflating something being vulnerable to the objects in question just ignoring how tough something is and the fact they still have AP and damage behind them.
Do us both a favor and stop pretending like this shit has zero AP factored into the equation, if you want to continue with your argument that it's entirely due to this special hax that just doesn't care how tough an enemy is despite this being directly contradicted in game in every game the things are featured in (Not withstanding most of your "support" to it being taken out of context to begin with and I'm surprised I'm the only person who's calling you out on this), actually prove it.
Explain why Ganon and actual strong entities don't die in one hit yet weaker foes, yet less evil ones, do, either it kills evil and evil entities should be affected all the same, or it doesn't and there's an actual AP component attached to it, that or Ganon secretly resists it, despite being the definition of evil, but at that point you're arguing against everything we know about the dude and the very same statements that say it can bypass Ganon's funny meme defenses.
While you're at it, prove Twinmold is actually weak to them because in-game he doesn't take any extra damage from them compared to a random bat, he has actual weaknesses, but that ain't it.
And then also explain why the arrows can obliterate and vaporize things that aren't evil, because they can do that too, it isn't just evil things they destroy, but if they're just arrows with evil neg hax, why are they directly stated and shown to be way the **** more powerful than normal arrows even against non-evil?
And if for some god-forbidden reason you want to argue the damage it inflicts varies, prove it, and then prove why if that is such a case, why it doesn't change in regards to how evil an entity is as you already said above that isn't the case, and then you'd need to explain why Ganon can't scale to Twinmold if it's static damage.
Also bad argument, nothing you said actually effects Ganon and Twinmold being able to survive them, if Ganon can survive something that injures Twinmold, damage boost or not, it still means they're in the same ballpark, he'd have to be like 100x below Twinmold to not be High 6-A. The only way this wouldn't be the case is if Ganon was one-shot by them while Twinmold wasn't, or the arrows have a super secret property of varying in damage output based on evil or whatever, but in that case, Ganon should by all accounts be taking more damage.
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I already proved/stated that Majora corrupted them and used them to further its curses. The onus would be on you to prove that they aren't evil and are acting independently to disprove that assertion.
I already made my stance and asked for people to weigh in. As I said originally I don't see this going anywhere because I don't see either of us changing our minds. If more people agree with you we'll just go with that.
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Backpedaling? You said he created them, even as recently as your last post. I'm going to take this to mean you can't prove he created them.
Corrupting them? Sure, fine, but why would corrupting them make them as evil as the King of Darkness? As opposed to say, idk, a bubble or ReDead or some other random corrupted enemy?
And that means you just ignore every single piece of conceivable evidence while asserting out-of-context statements somehow supports your claim?
No offense but what the actual **** are you doing? You don't just get to ignore the dozens of contradictory pieces of evidence to go "oh well i think they do this actually", that's disingenuous as ****, either explain the numerous contradictions away, or drop it. Just because you say something doesn't mean it's true, in this case, there's far to much evidence going against your wholely hax argument for it to even be remotely considered legitimate, and you speak of what others think, but everyone who's posted in at the very least agrees there's an AP component to it even if it works better against evil foes. Honestly I find myself leaning toward Saman's take on it.
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No Chariot
I've always said they were created or influenced by Majora.
I've explained what I'm doing already. I've presented my arguments, let you make plenty of counter points and then said let people vote on them.
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Eh idk about that chief, it's either backpedaling, or you just wasted a bunch of time arguing a point that ultimately didn't matter
And how many times in the last several messages have you continued on saying they were created, despite the fact I said hours ago that corruption is viable? The answer is like 3 or 4.
Again, what are doing? You say both, double down on creation, and then when you can't prove it you backpedal to both again. You could've just stuck with the former given I said that's fine as far back as the first reply.
You did, I'm moreso just baffled that you're still running with it and pretending there isn't a pile of contradictory evidence that you have to actually explain and have fit within your argument in order for it to hold weight. When your arguments amount to mostly out-of-context scans and then just blatant ignoring of everything else to try and paint a picture that is demonstrably not fully true, you could call that an argument, but that's just being disingenuous imo, whether it's intentional or not.
We need to actually figure out an actual representation of how things actually exist within canon in order for people to vote on in the first place.
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This I don't get. I've provided the entire quote for everything I've quoted. Out of context would involve me leaving off sentences or important words/context.
But since we consider the old Zelda dictionary vaguely canon going by our good profiles, the article on the Light Arrows is pretty clear
They do have an AP component, which I was wrong to imply otherwise, but it's noted that they're "particularly effective against dark-souled enemies who fear the light". Indicating that its not just raw power, but strength combined with a vulnerability against evil people. Which would include Twinmold, Gomess and Ganondorf.
They don't need to be High 6-A to damage Twinmold when Twinmold would be a dark-souled enemy that would be vulnerable to the arrows.
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You do realize that's literally what you did right? Half your statements involve bypassing Ganon's specific invulnerability. It isn't speaking in general terms. Like 3 of your statements are talking in general, half are not.
Yeah and? Nobody but you was arguing otherwise, the fact it took you this long to realize they have an AP component, despite the fact you yourself posted 3 statements saying they're powerful as ****, and one that even says its strength is the reason it can harm Calamity Ganon and me posting another statement saying its power enables it to fell a demon king, with multiple examples showing there's a power component and durability enables one to take it better...
Well that's a you issue lad.
And nah, that's just damage boost, the fact that Ganon takes an approximate amount of light arrows to cripple as Twinmold indicates comparability.
You should know by now it's not as simple as "light arrow hits evil, they die", it still has to actually damage them and hurt them, all being evil does is make them more susceptible to it, vulnerability, nothing more.
Would this mean the light arrows are High 6-A? Not inherently
What's this mean? It means while the arrows themselves might be cheating to deal said damage, but that has no bearing on the people who end up tanking them, it still means Twinmold and Ganon have similar durability in order to both survive said attacks, as if Ganon wasn't comparable, he'd be one shot by the damage boosted arrow given it can hurt something that, if going by your arguments, would be millions of times more durable compared to him. Which is no different than say, WW Ganon (atm) vs a Darknut (which the light arrows one shot).
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We still run into that issue of Ganondorf taking light arrows without the ToP in WW though. Which under the scaling would mean Toon Link would also need to be High 6-A, unless we're saying the arrows fried from Zelda are significantly worse than the arrows fired from Link (which even without that you have stuff with Puppet Ganon which would also make it weird in my view).
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That's an issue with the scaling and that whole interaction being very fucky, not an issue with the light arrows, damage boost, durability and so on.
Honestly? The fact WW Ganon can also take a **** ton of hits from the Master Sword is weird in and of itself.
Ganon is tier 6 with the ToP but is still heavily damaged and usually even killed by the sword while being empowered, like in OOT and TP, yet WW Ganon, without the piece, can tank hits from the Master Sword as well, which can harm his ToP self in literally every game he has it.
WW Ganon would end up scaling regardless of light arrows because he can take hits from the master sword, which can in turn harm his stronger versions.
I wouldn't use this to discredit the scaling, WW Ganon is all sorts of ****** up and inconsistent in terms of what he should be tanking even without the light arrows
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So do we just ignore WW and only focus on Adult/Teen Link? If so then I guess it's fine. The High 6-A stuff would just be durability scaling to Ganondorf then, rather than direct AP scaling like before.
Dust_Collector
They/Them- 7,086
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- #120
So the plan is to ignore the ****** up final boss in WW where base Ganondorf can somehow withstand getting ass blasted with Light Arrows and just go the route of only his TOP self and those who scale being High 6-A?
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