Major Zelda Revisions II: Electric Boogaloo

[Inverted_Tempest]

Continued from here.

The topic of current discussio: Zant's High 4-C Feat

Still needed to discuss: Wind Waker Ganon's 5-C to 4-C feat; Scaling for characters otherwise High 6-A, 5-C, Low 5-B or 5-A

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

Okay, I finally do see a sun here. @Inverted, you were already told countless times to stop assuming that I'm assuming. It was really like that until Hero Mode, but it's still and odd graphics.

Quoting this to reply to real quick... You cannot force away someone's right to free speech to say "you are assuming". Nothing here is objectively concrete as is in a VS Discussion, saying you aren't assuming would be absolutely incorrect. Those don't really refute the sun point either honestly.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Wind Waker feat is pretty much disagreed upon.

We should also throw in since we're here, alterrnate timeline scaling.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Except I'm not really assuming and you've been far too aggressive on the other thread @Inverted Tempest. I never taken away freedom of speech, but freedom of speech comes with responsibility. Other sources are still saying that Zant teleports you rather than Zant creating a sun. But I'm more neutral on that. But seriously, permanently drop the conspiracy theories you have with me as it's coming off as harassment category now.

Edit: I was considering, not assuming; those two words are opposite by definition.

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

I'm not even harassing you, all I've said is that you've been misrepresenting certain stuff and now you're telling I can't say the word "assume". This is derailing though which is why I didn't bring it up.

 

[PaChi2]

And this is something I hate of the wiki

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Bump.

 

[Link_Eternal]

So then our options:

1. Zant is creating illusions

- Idk if anything at all supports this, besides the clones he makes of himself? At the very least, Zant would have to be creating the different features of the rooms that Link can interact with (water, totems... pots). Plus the room changes in size, so yeah, I can't see this one.

2. Zant's Pocket Dimension

- While this is an explanation, I don't recall Zant displaying this ability before, (though Ganondorf might have, regardless of size?) in addition to the fact that the master sword is glowing. and only does so through the powers of the Sol, which are located only within the Twilight realm, thus that is where the must be fighting according to the game's canon.

3. Zant is teleporting himself and Link

- Now this option does have something going for it, as Zant has been show to be abe to do so freely. On top of the aforementioned glowing sword, Zant would be required to also restore a couple of the boss rooms to the state they were in during Links first visit, the poison to Diababa's room, and all the water to Morpheel's. This is less of a capability question, and more to point out another necessary assumption. Then there is the fact that Zant, exhausted and weak from his fight against Link, goes through the effort of bringing them back to the throne room of the Twilight Palace.

4. Zant is reality warping the Twilight Realm

- The option that requires the least assumptions, Zant has already shown the ability, the Master Sword is not separated from the Sols by a dimension, and it is highly likely that reality would return to normal upon Zant no longer being able to maintain it.

As a side note, whatever effect this has on the scaling we have for the zeldaverse has no bearing on the direct legitimacy of the feat. Establishing whether or not this feat is an outlier comes afterward.

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

If you're trying to assert something such as "it was teleportation," that is still an assumptio.

I don't see what is wrong with aggression really. I was only aggressive when necessary, it was to push a point from something where you said everything I said was mere conspiracy. You were saying I've been harassing you and got on me for escalating things, but you've also equally contributed to that, whether you acknoweldge it or not. I'm trying not to be as aggressive, you're trying to push I harassed you though.

Those "other sources" are mostly the Admins, people have already pointed out why the illusions are false or they side against teleportation, they've not unanimously agrreed on what it is. And realististically, telling me I can't say the word "assume" is trying to silence what I have to say. The better way of phrasing would just be telling me my usage of assume is incorrect at least.

Look, I'm trying to not derail the thread, how about we just stop the hostility, the "harassment," the conspiracies and all that jazz. This isn't related to the Zelda revision and we should just go back to arguing what we were doing so at the beginning, discussing like the knowledgeable and civil Zelda experts we are, not some cult of barbaric savages.

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

So then our options:

I think options two and four are the most plausible.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

I think four is the most plausible obviously. Teleportation doesn't even make sense unless we're assusming Zant is just that honorable and will teleport you out of a realm after you've defeated him.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Alright I found something that greatly harpens the "Zant is teleporting them" argument.
Take notice of the Yeta boss fight:

https://youtu.be/VoSJamj0TUc?t=240

Now take notice of when Zant takes you to that area:

https://youtu.be/pDkuU6lp6fs?t=487

Notice the problem? After defeating Yeta the entire area thaws yet Zant's is completely frozen.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@Inverted Tempest, being hostile or aggressive is a bad thing; that should be common sense as this is a civilized community. And no, I was never shouting, cussing, or calling people "Not very knowledgeable"; and that's exactly what you've been doing. No one should be hostile in the first place; but there is a big difference between saying "That is not civilized" or "Many users have been banned for similar reasons" Vs "You are no intelligence at all!" or "You are ignoring the ******* evidence!". The worst I said are the two former examples, which you've been saying things similar to those two lines on the previous thread. Also, it is my job to address what tone is considered inappropriate; so I'm not pushign for anything; I'm just a guy doing my job. Anyway, to the main point I agree.

The teleporting thing is the only one with an actual scan from a canon source for in depth detail on what he does. Using a guidebook made by Nintendo isn't assuming; plus it's a legit ability Zant has demonstrated; but him teleporting by default at death does seem weird plus the Sol Orb implies they're still in the Twilight Realm; but it could be teleporting to a location in that realm.

Him creating a pocket dimension is by far the most assumptive, as there's not explanation for creating a world. Plus Sol Orb thing also disproves that completely.

Zant also has demonstrated the use of illusions before and is one of the abilities on his profile, that includes the fake afterimages and the size of both himself and the walls changing in size. But the props are clearly physical; then again, Link also has non-physical interaction and can react to intangible stuff.

Reality Warping is also a possibility, but it can very; it's unknown whether or not he created the Twilight Realm's sun in Hero Mode. And even if he did, the feat in question would be 4-C rather than High 4-C. But, it's better said he warped the ceiling, walls, and skies since there's no proof he effected things outside the battlefield. I'd say him simply warping boss room area/Palace of Twilight is the most reasonable conclusion now.

 

[Link_Eternal]

I was under the impression that contradictions are resolved by the priority of the original source. Primary canon > Secondary canon. The book says he teleported, but the glowing sword in the game is telling us that they are, in fact, still in the Twilight Realm. I'm fairly sure that outside of the creators themselves outright telling us which one is correct, primary canon cannot be condradicted by a secondary source alone. That is the entire reason the priority order was even established, no?

I'm confused, if an illusion can be physically interacted with, can it still be called an illusion?

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

I already showed what's wrong with the teleporting argument. Unless we want to assume Zant can teleport through time and re-create the Yeta battlefield while he's at it.

 

[TriforcePower1]

@DDM Whatever the guide says about teleportation is contradicted by the Sols in-game, and I haven't even checked the English translation to be sure it says the same thing. Even if it were reality warping, there's nothing suggesting he manipulated the Twilight Realm's sun as it's always dusk.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I know that, but to be perfectly fair, the game itself never describes how Zant changing the background works; meaning secondary canons are the only "detailed" sources; Zelda wiki does not count as canon at all though. Sol Orbs do disprove they moved or teleported outside the Twilight Realm, but doesn't disprove they teleported at all. That's why I simply noted the strengths and weaknesses of each of the 4 "possibilities."

And it seems Reality Warping is the most popularly considered, but I agree it never really effected the Sun. It's still really weird that Hero Mode added a sun to the Twilight Realm, despite Midna's text still basically suggesting Twilight Realm has no sun other than the sol orbs. But yeah, it is always dusk implying the sun was never touched by Zant.

 

[Link_Eternal]

The glowing sword is a detail. To be fair, yes it very much could be a programing oversight, however without being explicitly told so by Nintendo, that sword is all that is needed, since in game it is consistant in never shining outside of the Twilight realm. Barring this one vague possibility.

It is weird that Hero Mode added one. That is why there is a debate over whether or not the realm has a sun, or Zant created one. As DDM said, Midna heavily implies that the Sols are what lights and powers the realm. This might be supported by the existance of the Sols at all, as if there is a sun, why are the Sols so revered?

'bout to have to replay the game lol

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Nice to know my teleportation argument is basically being ignored.

This is just a random assumption to argue he didn't reality warp the entire aea and just the ground.

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

The sky in the fight is far different to that of the Twilight Realm

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

And to add it's not a ridiculous statement to say that Denise or Hylia is weaker than the most powerful peice of the Triforce

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

We went over Demise and Hylia agreeing that we shouldn't base Demise as > ToP Ganon and vice versa since there's no real official confirmation.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

There's still absolute doubt for Light Spirits to be even remotely close to Hylia's power, and especially in regards to Light Force being treated as the 2nd most powerful source in Hyrule next to the Triforce. But the Demise comparisons should be dropped at this point since there's too many circular arguments.

Azathoth also seems quite busy; as he's a really busy guy IRL. But his input is pretty valuable.

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

When do Hylia and The Light Spirits have any proof of them being relative in power?

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Alright I found something that greatly harpens the "Zant is teleporting them" argument.
Take notice of the Yeta boss fight:
https://youtu.be/VoSJamj0TUc?t=240

Now take notice of when Zant takes you to that area:

https://youtu.be/pDkuU6lp6fs?t=487

Notice the problem? After defeating Yeta the entire area thaws yet Zant's is completely frozen.

^This got ignored several times might I add.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It wasn't ignored, and it only disproves that Zant teleported to the Yeta's Mansion, it doesn't disprove that there could exist another place similar to that area inside the Twilight Realm. Also, there's still only proof that Zant warped the Palace of Twilight, not the sky.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Unless you put it in your paragraph without ever doing a "@Giver" which would give me reason to go by the conclussion it was ignored, what in the ever loving hell is this? I hope you then no longer agree teleportation is the most likely scenario because this now takes a stupid number of assumptions for it. Zant randomly decided to teleport to an area similar to Yeeta's mansion, like what? It was explained above why it would be the sky. This is seriously trying every means necessary to be against this feat.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@Giver

I'm not sating that it happened, I was being considerate, but still many others mentioned that the Sun being added to the Twilight Realm and the "Hyrule Castle" in phase 6 location is a really weird graphic added to Hard Mode. It's kind of the equivalent of Link having new clothes in Wind Waker's New Game+. Not to mention Midna's context still implies the Twilight Realm has no sun even if it's visible in Hero Mode and that's the reason Sol Orbs exist. Not to mention the sword glitters disprove any possibility of them being outside the Twilight Realm yes.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Considerate...? You're applying a scenario completely baffling. This most certaintly is no longer teleportation because it'd require such a stupid assumption that Zant teleported everywhere else except for that one place, and you would need to objectively prove that there's a room randomly full of thick ice in the Twilight Realm that looks exactly like Yeeta's boss room. It being a "weird graphic" doesn't debunk much, it looks just like a sun. Show me the scene where Midna's "context" implies there's no sun cause this seems like being blatantly against the feat, I'm not calling bias before people assume that either.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

"That shining sphere illuminates this world. It's called a Sol. It's like the sun of your world, Link."

"The power of the Sol is the source of life in this world'... It is pure power." — Midna

That. Midna outright says Sol Orbs are the only thing the Twilight Realm has that generates light.

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

"That shining sphere illuminates this world. It's called a Sol. It's like the sun of your world, Link."

"The power of the Sol is the source of life in this world'... It is pure power." — Midna

That. Midna outright says Sol Orbs are the only thing the Twilight Realm has that generates light.

That's honestly not what I got from those quotes and even then it's Irrelevant to the argument as Zant literally creates a Star in the warped realm so saying that there's no sun in the Twilight realm proves nothing.To address it being a graphical change in game,who cares if the sun is there it's apart of the area Zant warped.

This is just reaching out and trying to debunk the feat based on major assumptions

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

And the Sun was literally just an added background to the Twilight Realm. That same Sun can be seen from the entrance to the Palace of Twilight; implying it was never created. Also, as Triforce said, it's literally Dusk 24/7 implying that Zant didn't warp "everything". Assuming he warped a sun that was never moved is what the actual "assumption" is.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

"That shining sphere illuminates this world. It's called a Sol. It's like the sun of your world, Link."
"The power of the Sol is the source of life in this world'... It is pure power." — Midna

That. Midna outright says Sol Orbs are the only thing the Twilight Realm has that generates light.

So this world does have a sun then from literally your first quote.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@Giver She's describing the Sol Orb, Twilight Realm has that instead of an actual sun.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

And the Sun was literally just an added background to the Twilight Realm. That same Sun can be seen from the entrance to the Palace of Twilight; implying it was never created. Also, as Triforce said, it's literally Dusk 24/7 implying that Zant didn't warp "everything". Assuming he warped a sun that was never moved is what the actual "assumption" is.

Assuming he only warped a very specific area and not that he warped a good portion of the area especially when the sky is shown to be very different is the actual "assumption".

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Also I notice you're using the word "imply" a lot, I hope you know since you wanted to argue semantics above with considering and asssumption that imply is a word based off subjectivity since there's no official objective basis behind imply. Therefore you can't refuse your claim being an assumption. You've objectively made an assumption now.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@Giver The sky doesn't appear any different; there's still a yellow sky, dark clouds, a sun in Hero Mode that doesn't exist in normal mode or the original game, ect. The Clouds move around and stuff, but they do so naturally. Also, stop using quite that take up most of your posts.

 

[Link_Eternal]

If you are saying that the twilight realm does not have a sun, that just lends further credibility to the argument that Zant creates a sun. The entire point of this is debating whether or not Zant added a sun to the realm, as Oblivion pointed out.

Though Medeus does bring up an interesting point: What are our considerations for differences between the standard game and Hero Mode? It looks like the game's canon is giving us two different ends for this one feat.

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

It honestly shouldn't matter as long as it a clear feat as we see in Hero Mode.To say that the Sun isn't physical when literally everything else in the realm is,is honestly a far larger stretch than saying the background is an illusion without any factual basis.

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

And the Sun was literally just an added background to the Twilight Realm. That same Sun can be seen from the entrance to the Palace of Twilight; implying it was never created. Also, as Triforce said, it's literally Dusk 24/7 implying that Zant didn't warp "everything". Assuming he warped a sun that was never moved is what the actual "assumption" is.

Show proof of this "same" Sun in the Twilight Realm as I see no sun only a bright white aura which is no indication of a sun