(Major To Aru Revision) A Certain Magical Revision

[Doggo]

What are you thoughts?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

... Huh. Well. That is interesting... Might have to run them with the stuff in this site and see if they work here.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Thanks, Doggo... Will probably have to massively revise this thread if a select few of those calcs are valid, tho.

 

[Doggo]

So touma has been upgraded to 9-B...there no calcs on his profile uh what?

Also since when are skill-out members "Olympic athlete level"? it says that on his profile

 

[Doggo]

Also I dont get why he is High 1-C via affecting supernatural bodies? Thats hax not ap

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

So touma has been upgraded to 9-B...there no calcs on his profile uh what?

Also since when are skill-out members "Olympic athlete level"? it says that on his profile

Ye, the calcs are going to be on the verse page (like literally every other verse page) on a calculation tabber... have to ask somebody to add said tabber for me since there is no tabber for calcs. I also think that skill-out statement came from Hamazura.

Also I dont get why he is High 1-C via affecting supernatural bodies? Thats hax not ap

Don't ask me, I didn't do it. Am also thinking of tackling that in another CRT.

 

[Doggo]

Its been a long since I read it but I remember a feat in WW3 arc where Fiamma launch Kamijou thorugh a wall breaking it

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Its been a long since I read it but I remember a feat in WW3 arc where Fiamma launch Kamijou thorugh a wall breaking it

I have a rough idea about what you are talking about, but am pretty sure that it only happened in the light novel - so can't pull any visuals of it from the anime and the manga isn't even close to the scene (and will probably take late-2023 at the earliest, for it to reach there), so can't calc it.

 

[Doggo]

Just a weird question. Accel has a varies rating depending of the surrounding vectors and we know he can reflect High 1-C vectors. If his max vector control is High 1-C for his defense is it likey this scales to his AP?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

This is not the best place to ask for this stuff. Just ask in the ToAru Discussion thread instead, even if it is a bit dead atm.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Seems like much of this got applied already. Not planning to reverse it for now.
Anything left I should comment on here?

 

[XDragnoir]

The Saint tier revisions wasn't applied yet, i think.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Ye, I plan on doing the Saint-tier characters last. Crap-ton of low-tier characters to upgrade, after all.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Ok, in that case.

Because characters in OP are demonstrated to grow after taking a beating time and time again and scaling pre Marineford Croco to Post MF would cause scaling inconsistencies, while scaling one Gabriel to the other doesn't cause any problems at all.

Scaling Angel Fall Gabriel to WWIII Gabriel also causes scaling inconsistencies, though, as WWIII Gabriel is blatantly stronger than people that stomp Kanzaki.

Bruh, it literally can be argued that he became weaker as he was summoned with the remaining Telesma inside of Sasha.

Given his place in the scaling chain, that possibility can be neglected.

Bruh, the amount she had during Angel Fall was literally stated to be Archangel-class, isn't your whole deal with Gabriel scaling to Mjolnir that it is an angel? Therefore something directly stated to be Archangel-class is above it too. And she had 100% of that power, Acqua only took 50% so yeah it would be below Sasha.

And i have no idea which scaling chain you're talking about, he fought Carissa with Curtana Shards which is weaker than Carissa with Curtana Original.

Maybe "Archangel-class" (I don't actually remember that statement), but even if that was quite likely still less than what Acqua of all people can take.

The scaling chain I'm refering to is the one I posted before.

Kanzaki's usual attacks can't do anything against Angel Fall Gabriel's Wings. Kanzaki's sword strikes (i.e. Yuisen) can easily destroy Angel Fall Gabriels Wings. Kanzaki's Yuisen can be stopped with one hand by Knight Leader (with Curtana Blessing). Acqua can fight on par with Knight Leader (with Curtana Blessing) and defeat him. WWIII Gabriel is stated to be superior to all other fighters in the battle (which explicitly includes Acqua) and Acqua's body can literally only endure a fraction of WWIII Gabriel's energy.

So in total we have: Kanzaki's regular stuff < Angel Fall Gabriel < Yuisen Kanzaki << Knight Leader = Acqua < WWIII Gabriel

WWIII Gabriel = Angel Fall Gabriel would hence imply Yuisen Kanzaki = Knight Leader, which makes no sense since that was a onesided stomp.

As said, I'm fine with Mjölnir scaling being removed.

Angel Fall only happened because even before Touya did something the elements were already messed iirc, and then i have no idea how you can compare the quality of something done perfectly and by accident to someone actively trying to do something, there isn't a way to compare them like your analogy because the skill of the first wasn't even taken into account. And again, Fiamma used the remaining Telesma inside of Sasha to summon Gabriel.

Nothing saying Fiamma used only that power. Heck, summoning Gabriel most likely brings power with it. The angel is likely stronger than what energy you invest into the summoning spell.

And, yeah, it's theoretically possible that Touya did as well of a summoning by accident. However, the burden of proof is on you here. There is no reason we would just assume that and do a scaling for the whole reason of "all contrary evidence could theoretically be invalid". You need actual evidence in favour of your point, not just assumptions that it could be possible. What you're proposing is essentially nothing but backwards scaling.

And if it doesn't require charge as you're saying, why it doesn't scale to Mjolnir's own physicals?

Because it's a magical lightning strike and magic doesn't scale to physicals?

In case you forgot what you said before: "And the only version of Gabriel that is clearly weaker than Yuisen is Angel Fall Gabriel."

Which goes against what is currently on the profiles and is what i was explaining, Yuisen currently scales to WW3 Gabriel and is from where every H6C got their rating.

Your point? I believe the only profile that currently goes against is Gabriel's who should get a revised explanation in the first key that says "Kanzaki's regular techniques could block its attacks, while Yuisen could easily shatter its wings".

Yuisen can continue to scale to WWIII and its revised 6-C rating and all the currently High 6-C become 6-C, while the current 7-A remain 7-A. I don't see the problem here.

 

[XDragnoir]

Ok, in that case.

Scaling Angel Fall Gabriel to WWIII Gabriel also causes scaling inconsistencies, though, as WWIII Gabriel is blatantly stronger than people that stomp Kanzaki.

I disagree, Acqua didn't actually fight with Gabriel there, the only thing which he did was absorb its energy which wasn't fully done because of compatibility between humans and Telesma.

Versailles, Accel and Kazakiri don't have feats against Kanzaki and Carissa had Curtana Shards which shouldn't scale to the Original.

Given his place in the scaling chain, that possibility can be neglected.

His placement in the scaling chain is the same as AF Gabriel, both scale below Yuisen as that's the only spell that can actually cut through Gabriel.

Maybe "Archangel-class" (I don't actually remember that statement), but even if that was quite likely still less than what Acqua of all people can take.

I provided that statement in post #58, you can still find it there.

There is literally no logic behind your argument. Sasha is a normal magician, she shouldn't have been the vessel for an Archangel in the first place, she is an outlier by all verses standards just like Angel Fall itself was caused by a random placing random items inside his house, there is no "Acqua is a saint" or "Acqua could only do this" that can change this, Sasha contained Gabriel not because she is Saint Tier or tied to Gabriel in any way, shape or form, but because the whole situation was a mess.

The scaling chain I'm refering to is the one I posted before.

Kanzaki's usual attacks can't do anything against Angel Fall Gabriel's Wings. Kanzaki's sword strikes (i.e. Yuisen) can easily destroy Angel Fall Gabriels Wings. Kanzaki's Yuisen can be stopped with one hand by Knight Leader (with Curtana Blessing). Acqua can fight on par with Knight Leader (with Curtana Blessing) and defeat him. WWIII Gabriel is stated to be superior to all other fighters in the battle (which explicitly includes Acqua) and Acqua's body can literally only endure a fraction of WWIII Gabriel's energy.

So in total we have: Kanzaki's regular stuff < Angel Fall Gabriel < Yuisen Kanzaki << Knight Leader = Acqua < WWIII Gabriel


WWIII Gabriel = Angel Fall Gabriel would hence imply Yuisen Kanzaki = Knight Leader, which makes no sense since that was a onesided stomp.

Downscale Base Kanzaki to baseline 6C and have everyone else (including AF Gabriel) scaling to the Mountain Vape feat via Yuisen scaling to Gabriel.

As said, I'm fine with Mjölnir scaling being removed.


Nothing saying Fiamma used only that power. Heck, summoning Gabriel most likely brings power with it. The angel is likely stronger than what energy you invest into the summoning spell.

Bruh, there is a single statement which doesn't imply he ever used something else, actually bring proof he used something or someone else to do summon Gabriel, all you're saying are baseless assumptions, literally "likely does this" and "likely is that"

And, yeah, it's theoretically possible that Touya did as well of a summoning by accident. However, the burden of proof is on you here. There is no reason we would just assume that and do a scaling for the whole reason of "all contrary evidence could theoretically be invalid". You need actual evidence in favour of your point, not just assumptions that it could be possible. What you're proposing is essentially nothing but backwards scaling.

What?

First, you're using a bunch of assumptions yourself, i haven't seen you quote a single thing in the LNs so far to support anything you've said.

Second, what this had to do with scaling? You were the one trying to use the spell to say AF Gabriel was weaker than WW3 Gabriel with literally no evidence to back you up, to begin with:

One was done by Touma's father by pure accident putting Gabriel into a human, the other was done by using the Star of Bethlehem as magical device to anchor Gabriels existence, give him a non-human vessel and used the Index Librorum Prohibitorum to properly construct the spell.

I was debunking your own assumption that different spells had different strengths, i at no point said AF Gabriel could be stronger because of the summoning spell alone, as that was never stated.

Burden should be on you to prove that Touya's spell was of any lower quality or summoned a weaker Gabriel, because all we know about it is that it was a 0,0000000000000001% chance and it happened, affecting the whole world and summoning an Archangel in the process.

Because it's a magical lightning strike and magic doesn't scale to physicals?

Actually, i just noticed it didn't throw itself... but okay i think we both have agreed that Mjolnir doesn't scale to anyone anyway.

Your point? I believe the only profile that currently goes against is Gabriel's who should get a revised explanation in the first key that says "Kanzaki's regular techniques could block its attacks, while Yuisen could easily shatter its wings".

As i said above, then we should downscale Kanzaki to Baseline 6C, then scale both AF Gabriel and Yuisen to the mountain vape value and downgrade all H6Cs to this same value.

Reason being simple, Kanzaki didn't get turned into a puddle when Yuisen ended at the end of her fight with Acqua, even tho Acqua attacked her again. She didn't die after taking a beating from KL, etc, she is weaker than them, but not to such a degree as the gap from 7A to H6C (or 6C)

Yuisen can continue to scale to WWIII and its revised 6-C rating and all the currently High 6-C become 6-C, while the current 7-A remain 7-A. I don't see the problem here.

As i said a few weeks ago in one of KL's match, his second key currently doesn't scale to pretty much anything even tho he fought with Curtana Original Carissa who is H6C, so he would be upgraded too, which would them upgrade Blood Sacrifice Aleistan to 6C too (while also hopefully adding her physical stats to her first key).

 

[DontTalkDT]

Found a quote that states that WWIII Gabriel had more Telesma than Sasha had in her, so that much to that argument.

“You are insane! Sasha is only able to perform such acts because of the Telesma remaining in her body from the events of Angel Fall! Besides, to forcefully suppress Misha Kreutzev requires you to take in far more Telesma!! You don’t have that sort of ability.”

I disagree, Acqua didn't actually fight with Gabriel there, the only thing which he did was absorb its energy which wasn't fully done because of compatibility between humans and Telesma.

Versailles, Accel and Kazakiri don't have feats against Kanzaki and Carissa had Curtana Shards which shouldn't scale to the Original.

It explicitely didn't work because the amount was too large for the body, not due to the poisonous properties of Telesma.

This amount of energy could not be tolerated by a human’s body. Just like how a fan could only suck in a predetermined amount of air. If you forcefully tried to take in more than your limit, the consequences would be dire.

And Acqua has explicitly been called weaker

“Besides, Misha Kreutzev surpasses you all. Even if she is not perfect, she is still the real thing, a Christian archangel. In a full on war, the only victor is me.”

So no, Acqua > WWIII Gabriel is nonsense.

His placement in the scaling chain is the same as AF Gabriel, both scale below Yuisen as that's the only spell that can actually cut through Gabriel.

Yuisen can harm Gabriel, yes, but given that it scales far below WWIII Gabriel that is definitely not the same as oneshot. It's more along the lines of someone with weaker AP being able to harm someone stronger with a blade. That is the only plausible way to put all things together.

There is literally no logic behind your argument. Sasha is a normal magician, she shouldn't have been the vessel for an Archangel in the first place, she is an outlier by all verses standards just like Angel Fall itself was caused by a random placing random items inside his house, there is no "Acqua is a saint" or "Acqua could only do this" that can change this, Sasha contained Gabriel not because she is Saint Tier or tied to Gabriel in any way, shape or form, but because the whole situation was a mess.

¯\(ツ)/¯

As the quote in the beginning shows, Sasha's Telesma amount is no limiting factor to WWIII Gabriel's power, as it is blatantly stronger than what power she had left.

Downscale Base Kanzaki to baseline 6C and have everyone else (including AF Gabriel) scaling to the Mountain Vape feat via Yuisen scaling to Gabriel.

With which justification would you "downscale" her to 6C if her regular stuff does nothing against 6C characters and she has no feats on that level?

Bruh, there is a single statement which doesn't imply he ever used something else, actually bring proof he used something or someone else to do summon Gabriel, all you're saying are baseless assumptions, literally "likely does this" and "likely is that"

Well, the first quote that Gabriel's power is greater than Sasha's basically provides that.

What?

First, you're using a bunch of assumptions yourself, i haven't seen you quote a single thing in the LNs so far to support anything you've said.

Second, what this had to do with scaling? You were the one trying to use the spell to say AF Gabriel was weaker than WW3 Gabriel with literally no evidence to back you up, to begin with:



I was debunking your own assumption that different spells had different strengths, i at no point said AF Gabriel could be stronger because of the summoning spell alone, as that was never stated.

Burden should be on you to prove that Touya's spell was of any lower quality or summoned a weaker Gabriel, because all we know about it is that it was a 0,0000000000000001% chance and it happened, affecting the whole world and summoning an Archangel in the process.

You didn't "debunk" it as you didn't actually prove that they were the same strength. You merely presented an option that maybe it could have been.

And no, that's not how burden of proof works. The burden of proof is always entirely on the person suggesting any relation. I claim there is no relation between WWIII Gabriel and Angel Fall Gabriel's strength. So it's high time you bring up some proof of that instead of just constantly trying to shift the burden of proof.

Reason being simple, Kanzaki didn't get turned into a puddle when Yuisen ended at the end of her fight with Acqua, even tho Acqua attacked her again. She didn't die after taking a beating from KL, etc, she is weaker than them, but not to such a degree as the gap from 7A to H6C (or 6C)

I don't think not dying in such unequal fights is grounds for scaling at all. Kanzaki wouldn't have to be able to match the power of either at full force without Yuisen.

As i said a few weeks ago in one of KL's match, his second key currently doesn't scale to pretty much anything even tho he fought with Curtana Original Carissa who is H6C, so he would be upgraded too, which would them upgrade Blood Sacrifice Aleistan to 6C too (while also hopefully adding her physical stats to her first key).

Some random non-empowered knights fought in that match, too. From what I remember KL performed nothing in that fight that would clearly scale him (at least, not more than the other random fodder that participated), while Carissa noted that the prior fight with KL + knights was completely onesided after Acqua joined in.

Immediately afterwards, two slashing attacks clashed. Acqua and Ascalon responded to the diagonal slash sent at them. Keeping Curtana Original’s power in mind, he avoided actually letting the blades strike. Instead, he made sure it was the hand guards near the base of the swords that struck each other.
(...Ow...!?)
Carissa had been fighting a completely one sided sword fight up to that point, so the unexpected recoil surprised her.

If one additionally takes into account that 7-A and 6-C are actually not that far apart (especially considering that Kanzaki upscales a lot in 7-A), even if we applied some downscaling 7-A remains a reasonable tier.

 

[XDragnoir]

Found a quote that states that WWIII Gabriel had more Telesma than Sasha had in her, so that much to that argument.

That quote literally only talks about the amount she had remaining from AF, it at no point compare it to the original amount while Gabriel was inside her back in AF.

It explicitely didn't work because the amount was too large for the body, not due to the poisonous properties of Telesma.

And Acqua has explicitly been called weaker

So no, Acqua > WWIII Gabriel is nonsense.

Never said Acqua was > Gabriel, but we didn't see how good he would do against it.

Thing is, Acqua would be able to cut through its attacks the same way Carissa did but even easier (as he is = to Curtana Original).

Also, the Acqua that stomped Kanzaki was still a Saint while after that he isn't, so you also have to take that into account as he also got weaker since that fight.

Yuisen can harm Gabriel, yes, but given that it scales far below WWIII Gabriel that is definitely not the same as oneshot. It's more along the lines of someone with weaker AP being able to harm someone stronger with a blade. That is the only plausible way to put all things together.

It's not just that, we have seem blades being used against Gabriel to no effect, Carissa was literally stopped casually, Yuisen is > Gabriel no matter how you look at it.

¯\(ツ)/¯

As the quote in the beginning shows, Sasha's Telesma amount is no limiting factor to WWIII Gabriel's power, as it is blatantly stronger than what power she had left.

Sure, that quote did prove that the summoning brings power with it, but so did the AF summon. It goes like this:

AF Sasha = AF Gabriel > WW3 Sasha < WW3 Gabriel.

Indeed, the easy way to explain this is that the summon brings 100 Telesma with it, for example, during AF these 100 were inside Sasha so after the events a bit still remained inside her, let's say 10, then Fiamma used these remaining amounts with Index and everything else to resummon Gabriel and bring another 100 but outside of Sasha this time, with Acqua then taking 50.

With which justification would you "downscale" her to 6C if her regular stuff does nothing against 6C characters and she has no feats on that level?

Not dying to their attacks? She would have exploded during her fight with KL or Acqua at the end if she was that much weaker than them.

This isn't my favorite method, but it is a method allowed in the wiki when having a character in either of the values is higher than its feats or lower than what is reasonable.

You didn't "debunk" it as you didn't actually prove that they were the same strength. You merely presented an option that maybe it could have been.

I debunked your argument about Touya being a non-magician and that this would mean his Gabriel is weaker, then being the same strength wasn't the point of this part of my arguments.

And no, that's not how burden of proof works. The burden of proof is always entirely on the person suggesting any relation. I claim there is no relation between WWIII Gabriel and Angel Fall Gabriel's strength. So it's high time you bring up some proof of that instead of just constantly trying to shift the burden of proof.

I did, there are statements placing them both as Incomplete summons, there is a direct statement that AF Gabriel was an Archangel-Class power, and i countered your arguments about summon quality. While you have brought nothing to say they're different, and just in this post you brought something to at least argue he was stronger.

I don't think not dying in such unequal fights is grounds for scaling at all. Kanzaki wouldn't have to be able to match the power of either at full force without Yuisen.

It's not just not dying, the damage she sustained wasn't beyond recovery or even major at all (such as several broken bones, or massive amounts of blood) and downscaling is used in these cases when a character is clearly stronger, but there isn't damage beyond what scaling allows.

Some random non-empowered knights fought in that match, too. From what I remember KL performed nothing in that fight that would clearly scale him (at least, not more than the other random fodder that participated), while Carissa noted that the prior fight with KL + knights was completely onesided after Acqua joined in.

He blocked, with damage, a dimensional debris Carissa kicked at him while bare handed:

Carissa had kicked the 3 meter long sharp stake. It came roaring directly towards Villian’s face, but it did not hit her.
Knight Leader had suddenly cut in from the side and punched the 3 meter stake away with his right fist.
With a loud impact, blood shot from between his fingers.
But Knight Leader’s expression did not change.
He merely looked down at his fist.

With his sword, he could repel her sword strikes:

“I see. First it was Villian and her benevolence and now it is Rimea and her intellect!!” Carissa yelled over the clashing of sword on sword.
Yes, Knight Leader’s longsword repelled Curtana Original. He had accurately struck the side of the sword where it could not create its dimensional slicing field.

If one additionally takes into account that 7-A and 6-C are actually not that far apart (especially considering that Kanzaki upscales a lot in 7-A), even if we applied some downscaling 7-A remains a reasonable tier.

There is a gap of around 20x times from the 7A feat to the 6C feat, it's not a reasonable tier at all, such a gap from Kanzaki to the others was never implied during her fight

 

[XDragnoir]

Like, if you want an example, Usopp scales to Ulti (i don't think he even downscales, but i am not sure) for taking around 3 of her headbutts and one of them shattered his skull.

Kanzaki took even more hits from KL and only one of them is said to draw blood from her, which was probably because of the asphalt that it sent flying.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Also, I just remembered something. On the topic of Knight Leader stopping Yuisen with one hand... Couldn't he have just used Thororm's Defense Formula - i.e, his turn offensive power to zero stick - under his breath or smth to make Yuisen harmless to him?

 

[Doggo]

Like, if you want an example, Usopp scales to Ulti (i don't think he even downscales, but i am not sure) for taking around 3 of her headbutts and one of them shattered his skull.

Kanzaki took even more hits from KL and only one of them is said to draw blood from her, which was probably because of the asphalt that it sent flying.

He was not taking her seriously at all, she still got stomp

 

[XDragnoir]

He was not taking her seriously at all, she still got stomp

That has nothing to do with anything at all.

 

[DontTalkDT]

That has nothing to do with anything at all.

Kinda does given that he was not seriously trying to kill her, which relativates any "she didn't die" observations a lot.

 

[DontTalkDT]

That quote literally only talks about the amount she had remaining from AF, it at no point compare it to the original amount while Gabriel was inside her back in AF.

You but you argued before that AF Gabriel might have been stronger than WWIII because Fiamma used only the Telesma remaining in Sasha for summoning. I think with this we can safely put the idea that the amount of Telesma in her relates to the amount Gabriel has to rest.

Never said Acqua was > Gabriel, but we didn't see how good he would do against it.

Thing is, Acqua would be able to cut through its attacks the same way Carissa did but even easier (as he is = to Curtana Original).

Also, the Acqua that stomped Kanzaki was still a Saint while after that he isn't, so you also have to take that into account as he also got weaker since that fight.

Acqua isn't really equal to Curtana Original. (especially not at full potential) He might be able to fight against Gabriel as Carissa did, but... the point is he would regardless be weaker than Gabriel, just like Carissa is. There's no way around Gabriel being at the top of those scaling chains.

Sure this Acqua is somewhat weaker than the Kanzaki fight one, but as he is on par with Knight Leader he is still stronger than Kanzaki, so the scaling chain works.

It's not just that, we have seem blades being used against Gabriel to no effect, Carissa was literally stopped casually, Yuisen is > Gabriel no matter how you look at it.

I wonder whether the fact that Carissa was using a christian thing against Gabriel, which supposedly can't really harm angels, plays a roll there. It in any case makes no sense that Yuisen > Gabriel, as Gabriel is > people that can take Yuisen.

Sure, that quote did prove that the summoning brings power with it, but so did the AF summon. It goes like this:

AF Sasha = AF Gabriel > WW3 Sasha < WW3 Gabriel.

Indeed, the easy way to explain this is that the summon brings 100 Telesma with it, for example, during AF these 100 were inside Sasha so after the events a bit still remained inside her, let's say 10, then Fiamma used these remaining amounts with Index and everything else to resummon Gabriel and bring another 100 but outside of Sasha this time, with Acqua then taking 50.

The scaling makes sense, but the idea that the summoning (especially when done in two wildly different ways) brings the same fixed power is pure speculation.

And the scaling of course puts no relation between AF Gabriel and WWIII Gabriel. Honestly, we have no reason to assume they are just equal. We have as much justification for that as to scale both version to the Mathers summons.

Not dying to their attacks? She would have exploded during her fight with KL or Acqua at the end if she was that much weaker than them.

This isn't my favorite method, but it is a method allowed in the wiki when having a character in either of the values is higher than its feats or lower than what is reasonable.

Such things are very case-by-case and from what I remember there was no clear feat of her withstanding serious attacks without Yuisen that would justify such scaling.

I debunked your argument about Touya being a non-magician and that this would mean his Gabriel is weaker, then being the same strength wasn't the point of this part of my arguments.

My argument wasn't that Touya definitely couldn't have performed as strong of a summoning, though. My argument was that it is a more than reasonable possibility. Always remember, for a scaling to not happen there just needs to be a plausible reason why the characters shouldn't scale.

I did, there are statements placing them both as Incomplete summons, there is a direct statement that AF Gabriel was an Archangel-Class power, and i countered your arguments about summon quality. While you have brought nothing to say they're different, and just in this post you brought something to at least argue he was stronger.

Two incomplete summons don't need to be equal in strength. Fiamma's summon was incomplete because the elements were misaligned. Touya's also had that problem plus possibly multiple others (human vessel, not optimized spell etc.). Both can be incomplete, yet AF Gabriel's still worse.

Archangel-class doesn't mean equal. 6-B Gabriel is also Archangel-class, but not equal to the other versions.

So in short you have provided no evidence of them being actually equal yet.

It's not just not dying, the damage she sustained wasn't beyond recovery or even major at all (such as several broken bones, or massive amounts of blood) and downscaling is used in these cases when a character is clearly stronger, but there isn't damage beyond what scaling allows.

Again, incredibly case-by-case. Which specific attack do you think would justify the scaling?

He blocked, with damage, a dimensional debris Carissa kicked at him while bare handed:

Carissa had kicked the 3 meter long sharp stake. It came roaring directly towards Villian’s face, but it did not hit her.
Knight Leader had suddenly cut in from the side and punched the 3 meter stake away with his right fist.
With a loud impact, blood shot from between his fingers.
But Knight Leader’s expression did not change.
He merely looked down at his fist.

Blocking a chunk of dimensional debris casually launched and her defenceless sister is IMO no reason for full scaling. Carissa already wasn't at full power and this attack would have a fraction of that as well. And then you can deflect something with a fraction of that and suddenly 6-C turns into 7-A. The difference between upper 7-A and lower 6-C is only 4.3x, you know?

With his sword, he could repel her sword strikes:

“I see. First it was Villian and her benevolence and now it is Rimea and her intellect!!” Carissa yelled over the clashing of sword on sword.
Yes, Knight Leader’s longsword repelled Curtana Original. He had accurately struck the side of the sword where it could not create its dimensional slicing field.

By hitting it from the side to deflect it. A move that Carissa in the quote at the end of my last reply indicated to not even have given her any recoil.

There is a gap of around 20x times from the 7A feat to the 6C feat, it's not a reasonable tier at all, such a gap from Kanzaki to the others was never implied during her fight

Between the calcs, yes. However, saints obviously massively upscale from Hel. I'm not saying that Kanzaki isn't far higher in 7-A than the calc suggests. Honestly, a "at least 7-A, likely higher" would be perfectly reasonable.

 

[XDragnoir]

Kinda does given that he was not seriously trying to kill her, which relativates any "she didn't die" observations a lot.

Ehhh, not trying to kill also goes to Kanzaki and in her case it is explicitly stated.

Also, while the argument he wasn't trying to kill her is strong because because he wasn't using his sword, the argument he was holding any amount of his power has no basis, so nothing changes in the end and Kanzaki keeps downscaling from the vape value.

 

[XDragnoir]

You but you argued before that AF Gabriel might have been stronger than WWIII because Fiamma used only the Telesma remaining in Sasha for summoning. I think with this we can safely put the idea that the amount of Telesma in her relates to the amount Gabriel has to rest.

The route of AF being stronger than WW3 was debunked when you proved the WW3 added energy, the route where they're equal hasn't been debunked so far.

Acqua isn't really equal to Curtana Original. (especially not at full potential) He might be able to fight against Gabriel as Carissa did, but... the point is he would regardless be weaker than Gabriel, just like Carissa is. There's no way around Gabriel being at the top of those scaling chains.

He is? Sorry, what?

First and foremost, the scaling currently in use scales Yuisen > WW3 Gabriel. But i get that this is likely wrong.

But then the part about Acqua... Acqua at his peak is stronger than CO Carissa who is stronger than CS Carissa.

Shards Carissa < Original Carissa ~ Ascalon Acqua < Saint Acqua

Gabriel (WW3 or AF) scales below Saint Acqua and around the same place as Ascalon Acqua.

Sure this Acqua is somewhat weaker than the Kanzaki fight one, but as he is on par with Knight Leader he is still stronger than Kanzaki, so the scaling chain works.

That's quite strange if you put it in the scaling chain, you know.

Kanzaki < Yuisen < Base KL < Hrunting KL = Ascalon Acqua < Saint Acqua

And yet KL dealt with Kanzaki (and Yuisen) way more easily than Acqua.

Part of this problem can be explained by his speed, as it was clearly above all other saint tier characters via statements and feats, but taking Yuisen as casually as he did could be explained by his weapon-related power null if not because it wasn't directly stated to be used.

In case the supporters agree, i am sure assumptions like this can be made.

I wonder whether the fact that Carissa was using a christian thing against Gabriel, which supposedly can't really harm angels, plays a roll there. It in any case makes no sense that Yuisen > Gabriel, as Gabriel is > people that can take Yuisen.

No one that fought with Gabriel ever took Yuisen. Curtana Shards don't scale to Curtana Original.

Also, I'd say that logic behind Curtana not harming Gabriel is good if not because normal magic/spells (christian or not) don't use Telesma, so we have no idea if that statement took Telesma-baded Magic into account in that statement, not only that but the whole thing behind Curtana is that it makes the wielder the leader of angels, receiving power from Michael. I'd say that it is meant to be a holy power that is able to fight other holy powers (Carissa did imply something like this when talking with Versailles)

The scaling makes sense, but the idea that the summoning (especially when done in two wildly different ways) brings the same fixed power is pure speculation.

WW3 being stronger is also pure speculation, their stats being different isn't supported and WW3 being stronger wasn't stated at any point nor is it supported by the scaling (Acqua was nerfed, Carissa only had the Shards and KL didn't have the Blessing)

And the scaling of course puts no relation between AF Gabriel and WWIII Gabriel. Honestly, we have no reason to assume they are just equal. We have as much justification for that as to scale both version to the Mathers summons.

1st, as i said above they being any different has less support than them being equal.

2nd, the one Mathers summoned was the real deal, so it's a much stronger version compared to the two versions stated to be incomplete.

Such things are very case-by-case and from what I remember there was no clear feat of her withstanding serious attacks without Yuisen that would justify such scaling.

Even hitting twice in a roll didn't draw any blood from Kanzaki, it only sent her flying:

She immediately turned around while bringing up her scabbard for defense.
Knight Leader had merely kicked.
Even so, Kanzaki’s body of a Saint was blown away along with the guarding scabbard. While she was knocked back and lost her balance, Knight Leader sent his clenched fist into her gut.
A tremendous sound rang out.
Kanzaki’s body was blown back 10 meters without landing and she struck one of the guard carriages. The carriage was protected by a number of spiritual items, but it was still smashed to pieces from the impact and Kanzaki’s body slid along the ground after passing through it. The horses tied to the carriage panicked.
“Gah….Wha-…!?”
(I thought this was going to be an issue that normal methods weren’t going to work on, but what’s with this tremendous power…!?)
Including Saints, there was a maximum amount of power that a flesh-and-blood human could control, but he had clearly surpassed that.
___

When the values were slightly different from the current ones, Queen from One Piece downscaled from Marco via being sent flying something like 10 or so meters even tho the same attack gave him a big wound on his face and drew blood with it, i see no reason to not downscale Kanzaki.

My argument wasn't that Touya definitely couldn't have performed as strong of a summoning, though. My argument was that it is a more than reasonable possibility. Always remember, for a scaling to not happen there just needs to be a plausible reason why the characters shouldn't scale.

It isn't a reasonable possibility at all, there is no mention of it actually being a weaker method through the more than 50 volumes, even tho Angel Fall is mentioned quite sometimes after OT, there just isn't support to this so what makes this a reasonable possibility if the narrative doesn't point towards this?

Two incomplete summons don't need to be equal in strength. Fiamma's summon was incomplete because the elements were misaligned. Touya's also had that problem plus possibly multiple others (human vessel, not optimized spell etc.). Both can be incomplete, yet AF Gabriel's still worse.

A human vessel was never stated to limit its power, the only thing it is know to change afaik is Gabriel's regen which has nothing to do with AP.

We don't even know if the spell was optimized or not, we only know that Fiamma added some things (Index mainly) that resulted in Gabriel being summoned outside Sasha, nothing beyond that was shown to have changed.

A better analogy than the one you used before is that Touya pressed a button by accident that by sheer luck gave him the best character possible, while Fiamma made a changes to the button that would assure he got the best character possible.

Archangel-class doesn't mean equal. 6-B Gabriel is also Archangel-class, but not equal to the other versions.

The Gabriel that would do the 6B feat would do that after the elements were restored (the elements were only restored after Gabriel fought with Carissa btw).

So in this case there is a clear reason to not scale the 6B feat to the Misha Gabriel (or incomplete + distorted Gabriel)

So in short you have provided no evidence of them being actually equal yet.

I have provided evidence that they're are the same both in how they're acknowledged by valid sources as the same thing, an Incomplete Archangel and nothing in the scaling or the narrative even hint that one was stronger than the other.

Blocking a chunk of dimensional debris casually launched and her defenceless sister is IMO no reason for full scaling. Carissa already wasn't at full power and this attack would have a fraction of that as well. And then you can deflect something with a fraction of that and suddenly 6-C turns into 7-A. The difference between upper 7-A and lower 6-C is only 4.3x, you know?

No one in Toaru scales to upper 7A tho, so i have no idea why you brought that up, it's completely pointless, Toaru characters scale to 247 Megatons iirc, which makes them nearly 20x weaker than baseline 6C and the vape feat

Nothing even indicates it was casual, indeed, the fact it caused damage to someone who clashed evenly with her and who made her dodge in a later point clearly means that the attack was strong, why would Carissa not use her full power to begin with? You're basically trying to say she sent a debris with just enough strength to kill a normal human and that this would still harm a 7A character, or 6C, or whatever.

Carissa's debris are her signature projectiles and are consistently used during her fight with the Saint Tiers (these are her own words) and even damaged herself:

She had not been injured by Kanzaki, Acqua, or anyone else. It had been one of the fragments from the pieces of dimensional wreckage Carissa herself had destroyed to give her time to evade.
“It looks like I’ve exceeded my limit for this game of otedama. Even with this special power, taking on 3 Saint level monsters is rather troublesome.”

By hitting it from the side to deflect it. A move that Carissa in the quote at the end of my last reply indicated to not even have given her any recoil.

Sure, Acqua with Ascalon was the strongest of the 3 fighting Carissa, KL was strong enough to be at that level, he wasn't strong enough to take the advantage alone.

Between the calcs, yes. However, saints obviously massively upscale from Hel. I'm not saying that Kanzaki isn't far higher in 7-A than the calc suggests. Honestly, a "at least 7-A, likely higher" would be perfectly reasonable.

It is less reasonable than the wiki-wide accepted method of downscaling a character when they take a beating without serious damage from another character.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

poke Looking at Hel's feat, aka the thing that grants 7-A their ratings in the first place, it is stated to only be 101.28 Megatons according to the calc. Maybe I am wrong, and everybody is talking about an entirely different feat, so correct me if I am wrong - if I am not wrong, tho, then... Well, there is even more of a stat gap that needs to be corrected.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Actually, wait... Looking into it... the 287 Megaton value comes from the laser that tried to kill Fiamma but got no-selled by Holy Right's auto-protect.

Edit: Wait, wait... Dragonoir said 247 MT. But... where the heck did that come from? Am pretty sure the 7-A calcs we have are in the narutoforums.

 

[Doggo]

Ehhh, not trying to kill also goes to Kanzaki and in her case it is explicitly stated.

Also, while the argument he wasn't trying to kill her is strong because because he wasn't using his sword, the argument he was holding any amount of his power has no basis, so nothing changes in the end and Kanzaki keeps downscaling from the vape value.

He still beat her up with his mere fist without trying

 

[Doggo]

Has anyone realized Index intelligence is rated "Average"

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Doesn't Index constantly mess and misunderstand up with basic modern tech like microwaves and even accidentally broke Touma's bathtub while cleaning it one time? ... Jk. She probably deserves a higher intelligence rating when regarding magical matters, but that is a topic for another CRT and not for this CRT.

 

[XDragnoir]

He still beat her up with his mere fist

True, doesn't matter tho.

without trying

Actual proof of that? At no point it is ever implied he is holding back his power.

 

[Doggo]

True, doesn't matter tho.


Actual proof of that? At no point it is ever implied he is holding back his power.

Kanzaki Kaori was a Saint.

There were fewer than 20 Saints in the world. A Saint was a person who possessed a certain talent or bodily characteristics and so held similar magical symbols to the Son of God from the moment they were born. As such, they obtained a fragment of his power that they could freely control.

For most enemies, she didn’t even need to draw her sword.

She had a hand-to-hand technique for semi-long distances called Nanasen that used wires and she could blow away most magicians by merely swinging Shichiten Shichitou’s long scabbard.

(My enemy is the head of the knights, Knight Leader. I doubt he will be defeated so easily.)

Kanzaki paid close attention to Knight Leader’s movements and poured strength into the fingers holding the hilt of her sword.

(It looks like I’m going to have to go all out here, but I don’t want to kill him if I can avoid it… I’ll knock him out with the scabbard and quickly capture the second princess!! That’s the only way to quickly put a stop to this ridiculous rebellion!!)

But…

Something invisible was seeping from Knight Leader’s body.

Knight Leader disappeared from Kanzaki Kaori’s sight.

It took her an instant to realize that he had moved out of her vision at tremendous speed.

When she did, she heard the sound of slicing wind coming from directly behind her.

“!?”

She immediately turned around while bringing up her scabbard for defense.

Knight Leader had merely kicked.

Even so, Kanzaki’s body of a Saint was blown away along with the guarding scabbard. While she was knocked back and lost her balance, Knight Leader sent his clenched fist into her gut.

A tremendous sound rang out.

Kanzaki’s body was blown back 10 meters without landing and she struck one of the guard carriages. The carriage was protected by a number of spiritual items, but it was still smashed to pieces from the impact and Kanzaki’s body slid along the ground after passing through it. The horses tied to the carriage panicked.

“Gah….Wha-…!?”

(I thought this was going to be an issue that normal methods weren’t going to work on, but what’s with this tremendous power…!?)

Including Saints, there was a maximum amount of power that a flesh-and-blood human could control, but he had clearly surpassed that.

(Don’t tell me he’s using the high-speed stability line like Acqua of the Back…!!)

Kanzaki was having trouble breathing as doubt entered her mind, but she didn’t have time to think over it calmly.

Knight Leader had already jumped up 5 meters in the air and the soles of his shoes were approaching in order to crush her.

“!?”

Kanzaki immediately rolled to the side.

But even with her physical abilities as a Saint, she couldn’t get to safety in time.

She avoided a direct hit, but the destroyed asphalt scattered around the area and struck her. Knight Leader looked silently down at Kanzaki as she rolled to the side with blood gushing from her. He was not watching her cautiously. His expression said that he saw no need to hurriedly pursue her.

“Why do you look so surprised?”

Knight Leader gently spread his arms wide towards Kanzaki who was completely on guard. He did not seem worried at all. He almost seemed disappointed.

“I am the head of the knights, one of the three factions. Even if you are a Saint, you are still just one member of the church. Did you really think you could fight on my level?”

“!!”

Without responding, Kanzaki fired off 7 wires.

Nanasen.

“…Long ago, an old friend of mine hit me with a dreadful surprise attack.”

Knight Leader did not seem worried. He held a hand up in the air, grabbed all of the wires fired towards him, and forcefully ripped them apart. He hadn’t used a weapon. In fact, he hadn’t even used both hands.

“Ever since, I have always been on the lookout for surprise attacks.”

While he spoke, Knight Leader “threw” the destroyed wires. Even if they were sharp, they were still basically just strings. They shouldn’t have had any power to them, but Kanzaki’s body flew back like a fired shell when they hit her.

“Gh…bh….!!”

This time, Kanzaki finally stopped moving when she struck a tree in the forest.

The destroyed wires were no longer wires. They had been gripped with such strength that the metal wires had been compressed into a single mass and fired like a bullet from a handgun.

“The one to stand before me should be, at the very least, the head of the Anglican Church,” Knight Leader said quietly as he cracked his knuckles. “No, the church simply does not have enough strength. I respect the royal family, but I stand above them when it comes to violence. Frankly speaking, you simply aren’t up to the task.”

A tremendous sound rang out.

When Knight Leader’s body disappeared, he was already directly in front of Kanzaki. Immediately after she jumped to the side, his leg blew away the trunk of a large tree with a single strike. It didn’t break, it flew. As Kanzaki trembled at that destructive power, her hands subconsciously moved. They reached for the hilt of her sword.

(Oh, no…!!)

The reason a chill ran down her back was not due to a danger to her own life.

Her hands had already moved.

By the time she realized that, her right hand had already forcefully drawn her sword. She had used the true Yuisen. That ultimate attack that could cut down even a monotheistic angel flew straight for Knight Leader’s neck.

He was unarmed. He had nothing that even resembled a weapon and his suit was not a spiritual item.

And yet, with a tremendous noise, he grabbed Kanzaki’s sword with a single hand.

This time, it was bewilderment, not fear, that wrapped around Kanzaki’s entire body.

Having stopped her movement, Knight Leader spoke.

“Do you know why the longtime members of Necessarius did not begin a large-scale systematic resistance when we conquered the United Kingdom and instead quickly slipped into the darkness to wait for a better chance?”

Still grabbing the blade of her sword, he lifted one foot from the ground.

“It was because they knew that it was absolutely impossible for them to win in a straight fight against the knights while inside the United Kingdom.”

A loud explosive noise rang out.

It was the sound of Knight Leader kicking Kanzaki. The tremendous force caused Kanzaki to lose her grip on Shichiten Shichitou and her body was knocked a great distance.

“Our country was constructed around Curtana and the four cultures and so the entire United Kingdom itself is bound by a special Christian rule. When in this land, the monarch is the leader of the angels and the knights are angels. …As long as we are in the country, there is just a sheer difference in the amount of power. If you want to kill me, you should first drag me outside of the United Kingdom.”

“…Uuh…”

Kanzaki’s consciousness was wavering as she watched Knight Leader toss Shichiten Shichitou aside.

“Also, we of the knights do not believe in the Anglican Church that Henry VIII created for political reasons. We see it as no more than something to use. Our essence is a single ideology created from a synthesis of Norse, Celtic, Charlemagnic, Germanic, and all other paths of knighthood. …That attack just now seems to have been a strike that circumvents numerous spells in order to injure angels, but that kind of detour isn’t enough to circumvent my defenses.”

Kanzaki attempted to stand up, but no strength would enter her legs.

There were special circumstances in that situation, but even so, that was the most ridiculous enemy she had ever faced. She had previously fought an imperfectly manifested version of the Archangel Gabriel and Acqua of the Back who used that angel as a symbol, but she had at least been able to “fight” against them.

But with Knight Leader she couldn’t even do that.

And he did not even take pride in his strength.

“So you haven’t given up yet,” said Knight Leader narrowing his eyes out of disinterest. “In any case, a mere Saint cannot kill me with their special strength.”

As Kanzaki attempted to muster some more strength, Knight Leader casually approached her directly from the front.

As he did, he spoke.

“And I haven’t even drawn my sword yet.”

He kicked Kanzaki.

It was not the kick of a martial artist. It was much like he was kicking a soccer ball.

Kanzaki’s body flew through the air and then rolled along the ground.

Knight Leader didn’t even look over in her direction and instead gestured at his subordinates. They all boarded carriages or mounted horses and headed in the direction the second princess had disappeared in.

Atop his horse, Knight Leader looked in Kanzaki’s direction for just an instant.

Seeing that she had completely lost consciousness, he spoke disinterestedly.

“So that’s all a Saint can do.”

 

[Doggo]

Just curios has anyone calc accel plasma storm? That might help with his rating

 

[XDragnoir]

Yes, he defeated her easily, but he never ever implied he wasn't punching/kicking her at full strength during the actual fight, that only happens once when she was already defeated and his kick was compared to playing soccer.

Indeed, throughout the entire fight there are moments talking about his tremendous strength and how he is a force even above Acqua.

 

[Doggo]

Yes, he defeated her easily, but he never ever implied he wasn't punching/kicking her at full strength during the actual fight, that only happens once when she was already defeated and his kick was compared to playing soccer.

Indeed, throughout the entire fight there are moments talking about his tremendous strength and how he is a force even above Acqua.

The text states that he has now surpassed a saint. Also him being equal to aqua just proves he would stomp Kanzaki.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Just curios has anyone calc accel plasma storm? That might help with his rating

I have been trying for the past couple of days, honestly. But there is no specific formula to calc plasma feats on this site and I am not sure if that Accel's plasma storm qualifies for the 10^10 J/m^3 for high energy density plasma - so it might be entirely un-calcable.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

It also doesn't help that the fanverse site for ToAru feats that you linked, Doggo, also shared similar concerns about Accel's plasma storm and instead tried to apply a formula that used something called Stefen-Boltzmann law and got a 8-A+ (758.76) Result. I also got a 8-A+ when I tried my hand with it too.

Edit: Also, even when somebody tried to use 10^10 J/m^3 for Accel's plasma storm, they only got 7-C (80 Kilotons).

 

[Doggo]

It also doesn't help that the fanverse site for ToAru feats that you linked, Doggo, also shared similar concerns about Accel's plasma storm and instead tried to apply a formula that used something called Stefen-Boltzmann law and got a 8-A+ (758.76) Result. I also got a 8-A+ when I tried my hand with it too.

Edit: Also, even when somebody tried to use 10^10 J/m^3 for Accel's plasma storm, they only got 7-C (80 Kilotons).

I see thx for informing

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

I still got a few more calcs in the works, though. Two of which might turn Mikoto, Gunha, Kakine, Mugino, and Accelerator into pure 7-Cs, one or two 8-A calc that might help him in proving it isn't an outliner, two supporting calcs for 9-A, and 9-B calc. Basically, the level 5s might get an upgrade, the 8-A rating might or might help, and the 9-A and 9-Bs ratings will have enough support to make them as solid as steel.

Cuz why not.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

And yes, I'll post 'em in this thread once I am done with doing all of them.