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(Major To Aru Revision) A Certain Magical Revision

FantaRin_The_First

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TLDR for CRT


Upgrade to [At Least 9-B, Likely 9-A] for the 16 (?) 10-A Profiles, 74 9-C Profiles and 79 9-B Profiles in To Aru no Majutsu Index series
Upgrade 8-A Characters to 8-A+ via new 8-A calc
Downgrade Kakine Teitoku [Both Keys] and Accelerator [Pre-Headshot & Post-Headshot Key]
  • Base/Pre-Revival Kakine - Attack Potency & Striking Strength & Durability: At Least 9-B, Likely 9-A physically, At Least 8-A with Dark Matter
  • Post Revival/Beetle 05 Kakine - Attack Potency & Striking Strength & Durability: At Least 8-A, Possibly 7-A (should scale to his Dark Matter)
  • Accelerator [Pre-Headshot & Post-Headshot Key] - Attack Potency & Striking Strength: At Least 9-B, Likely 9-A physically, At Least 8-A with Vector Control, Possibly 7-C with Plasma Storm [Note: Have noticed that Acceleator's Plasma Ball essentially made a hole in a cloud in the Railgun Manga; will make a calc for that, but it might lead to a 7-B result.]
  • Side Note: Remove Terra of the Left's 7-B Rating as it is done via Attack Potency-Durability Ignoring Hax
Downgrade all High 6-C (and Upgrade 7-A) Characters (sans Mjolnir) to 6-C (due to Archangel Gabriel's Mountain Vap statement, this respect thread has this statement) or downgrade High 6-C characters to At Least 7-A due to scaling to a character Kanzaki.


Intention


Hey, hey, Fanta here! Trying my hand at the revision game once more for a series that I enjoy - this time, it is A Certain Magical Index!

Currently, 9-C characters like Kamijou Touma and Shirai Kuroko are all baseline 9-C due to them having various superhuman feats but having no calculation to show for it. Therefore, I took it upon myself to make calculations for the verse... And then it evolved into something grander entirely since ToAru Profiles aren't the best in the site, to say the least.

Verse-wide AP & Dura Revisons, baby! The next CRTs for ToAru are going to (hopefully) be a LS upgrade CRT and/or an power & ability CRT!

Now, let's get started!


Calculations



[125.82 Kilojoules - Wall Level]


[27.32 Tons - City Block Level]


[140.51140.51 Kilojoules - Wall Level]


[Small Tree - 1542516.355 joules, or 1.54 Megajoules] [Big Tree - 98721046.69 joules, or 98.72 Megajoules]


[222.76 Megajoules - Small Building Level]


[43.682145348 Tons - City Block Level]


[559.02 Tons - Multi-City Block Level+]


[1.71967812 Megajoules - Wall Level]


[4.90 Gigatons - Island level]



ToAru Characters Scaling Chain Information


Section serves the purpose of pointing people that are massively important to the scaling chain, in some way or fashion. This will revolve around multiple characters, some weaker than the others and some stronger than the others, but it needs to be kept in mind that all of them are relatively comparable to each other in terms of attack potency, striking strength, and durability - and it should be noted that the important one in this scaling chain is Kamijou Touma, the main protagonist of A Certain Magical Index (Old Testament/ New Testament/Genesis Testament), and has fought the most amount of impressively powerful foes... he also has a dragon transformation, but that is another thing entirely.
  • Let's get started with the important person, Kamijou Touma. Firstly, let me talk about his most impressive durability & attack potency feat... Due to misfortune, Touma encountered a despairing Accelerator (who was slowly having a mental breakdown in Russia, who then decided to attack Touma and force him into a battle to the death. [1], [2], [3]. While he didn't get directly hit by Accelerator, Touma did endure multiple shockwave attacks from him - meant to deal with Touma's negation - and was able to knock Accelerator out after numerous punches. [Accel's AP is High 6-C, Durability is 7-A/High 6-C (If this thread gets its way)]... Below listed through indent list are other feats to help prove that Touma can't possibly be 9-C via not dying from what he has endured.
    • While this is less of a feat due to Touma's Imagine Breaker possibly helping with this feat, Touma was able to deflect 2km attacks from a character named Thor when he used his Arc Blade spell with his right hand, and after numerous exchanges... Thor's wrists broke before Touma's right hand. [1], [2]. Should be noted that Thor's Arc Blade spell is tied to his striking strength, and Touma's right hand managed to endure its blows despite being a normal flesh-and-blood appendage. [Thor's AP & SS are High 6-C].
    • Touma also encountered a woman named Silvia - and uh... Well, she upscales ToAru's High 6-C value several times over [six-to-seven times, if that High 6-C Scaling chain from that ToAru match is correct], and she decided that she has to beat him to death by siding with a person that harmed the person that she cares about. [1], [2]. He didn't die, although Touma and his traveling companion had to be saved by someone else, and he was capable of fighting against Thor (again) with no real rest or time to heal, a bit of time later... Actually, I should put more context into this "feat". Namely, Touma was not in prime condition during it - he had nine previous battles before his encounter with Silvia - granted, a portion of those battles were Touma using his SI and smarts to get people to turn to help him in some way or convince them to stand down, but he did fight and knock out Accelerator by negating his High 1-C reflection and striking him in the chest with a rock (while also being in a state that solidly makes him High 6-A in durability at the time). [3] - all the while he traveling in a place that is minus fifteen degrees without any kind of clothing meant for such an environment.
    • Touma also has endured attacks from other people as well; [8-C] Vento (1), [8-B] Stiyl (2), [7-A, is a decently strong character in-verse and might possibly be able to get upgraded to High 6-C in this CRT] Leivinia (3), [7-B, Likely High 6-C] Rensa (4), and lastly... [7-A, but has the ability to amplify his attack by ten times what the target thinks it is - and if an opponent knows this, it'll turn into 100 times amplification, and so forth] Aleister (4), (5). All of them were powerful foes for Touma in some way or form, and Touma still endured blows from them - and was able to beat them.
  • Oddly enough... Everything that applies to Touma applies to Accelerator's durability and attack potency when it isn't strengthened via his vector control through the fact that Accelerator endured numerous punches from Kihara Amata, who is listed as superior to Touma via him being actual martial artist that trains and Touma just being a teenager that just gets into a lot of street brawls, and could physically harm him. [1], [2], [3]. And while Accelerator's Pre-Headshot Key has the anti-feat of being heavily affected by punches from an exhausted and heavily weakened Touma, he should still scale physically as the Accelerator who harmed Amata is the one that is a cripple that needs a walking cane and has brain damage who has only gone in two misadventures that had him stomp nearly everyone and under went physical rehab/therapy.
    • And like Touma, Accelerator has endured a shit-ton of hits that are way beyond what 10-B or 9-C can handle. [7-B] Kakine (1), [7-B, Likely High 6-C] Kakine (Second Key) (2), [High 6-C] Himself (via his own attack being reflected back at him) (3).
  • In the spin-off manga, Astral Buddy, a character named Junko had her power copied by a person who was named Seigo, and was able to fight with an 8-A character named Gunha, although, he lost and it did result in Seigo's death soon after the fight had ended. [1]. As it is her power and Seigo didn't have any notable physical abilities outside of her power, Junko should be able to accomplish the same result. In fact, Junko has given Gunha a blood nose from a hit [2] when she wasn't using the full power of her ability, Rampage Dress. However, Junko was unable to replicate the feat from that moment onwards since Gunha's bullshit grants him a thing that allows him to power up to tank hits that would normally hurt him as long as he recognizes the attack and has enough guts (willpower, I think) [3]. Junko did fare much better when she had full and unrestricted access to Rampage Dress to a more notable degree, as she could knock him down and made Gunha say that her blows were impressive. [4], [5], [6], [7]. Although, Junko admitted that she could barely keep up with Gunha and she considered herself as the one who had lost after their match finished prematurely by the intervention of Misaki (Junko's friend) and a character named Kuroko.
    • As a side note, I would like to mention the first ToAru 8-A value came from a feat from a younger (and likely weaker) Misaka Mikoto first time firing out the attack that earned her the title of Railgun, and the second 8-A (that comes from me) had Misaka Mikoto lower the output of her attack due to her feeling cautious against an enemy due to their actions; Gunha upscales from the both of them to a notably degree as he stopped attacks and endured attacks from an out-of-control Mikoto who was attacking to kill and was in a state that was superior to Mikoto's base key in every notable category and was growing stronger by the second to the point that she gained three different forms - so it should mean something that Junko was able to draw blood from Gunha as this out-of-control Mikoto couldn't do this feat against a serious Gunha until after she evolved into her second form.
    • Continuing with the Astral Buddy manga for a bit before moving onto an even more important point, there is this character named Houjou Arei. While not as impressive as Touma or Accelerator's feats, Houjou's first (real) fight in the manga was with Junko, fighting each other until Houjou took a headbutt from Junko that sent her flying feet-first against a tree with so much force that it broke, and she was ready to get fight some more before other ally stopped her and convinced her to retreat. [1], [2]. Should be noted that Houjou's ability was the mere power to hear emotions as sounds and didn't physically enhance her, so... Houjou decided to wear a piece of body enhancing equipment called Hard Taping, which has a ten times multiplier statement (granted, it is applied to making a machine move 10 times faster than a car, but it can be applied directly on one's body, so it might grant them the 10x multiplier) to even the odds. Houjou had the upperhand against Junko for awhile (granted, Houjo only fought Junko after she already fought an enemy that damaged and exhausted her) until Junko was able to unleash the full-power of her ability, Rampage Dress, to punch her in the stomach and send her flying into the air. [1], [2], and [3].
  • Now, I'll explain the reason why I mentioned Astral Buddy in the first place. Kuroko Shirai. Kuroko fought Houjou Arei as her last opponent. While it should be noted that Houjou was affected by her last battle with Junko and weakened somewhat, but she was still using Hard Taping meaning she was still superior to her base self without the enhancement. Kuroko was also the victim of a surprise attack and left weakened due to Houjou ambushing her prior to their fight, so she wasn't operating at 100% fighting condition and that should be accounted for as well, even if Kuroko won due to Houjou's limits catching up with her. [1], [2]. Should be mentioned that a fellow teleporter named Musujime Awaki encountered a man named Komaba Ritoku who used Hard Taping, and is the character who introduced it into the series and bought up its multiplier in the first place, endured a hit or two and wasn't too badly damaged by 'em - so there is some credence in Kuroko's fight with Houjou.
  • On the side of the Accelerator Manga, there are four notable characters for scaling - Huotou and Sakuragi Naruha, the latter is the one who did the 8-B calc. Tobio Yami and Tobio Mami, the latter of whom is the one who did 9-A calc. For the first duo, Naruha did the 8-B feat casually and Huotou was able to keep up with Naruha until Huotou's Master, Esther, stepped in to help Huotou with Magic which made it extremely difficult for Naruha to damage Huotou - to the point, Naruha opted to kill Esther with a giant drill and Huotou was forced to act as a human shield and had to take the drill on point-blank. Tobio Mami also did her feat casually but Yami stepped in and engaged in fisticuffs until both couldn't fight anymore... that is it. I just want to point out that the two Accelerator Manga feats I calculated were feats done by the characters casually.


Other Things


  • Misaka Mikoto's 7-C Rating for lightning... No idea if that calc is correct or not anymore, since I am pretty sure that the VBW is having trouble in how to deal with lightning calcs, atm. Could be wrong, tho.
  • 7-B Tiering for Kakine and Accelerator is calc-less and doesn't have any sources for why they are labeled as 7-B in the first place. The only other character who is 7-B in ToAru is a guy named Terra, and... Well, he achieves that rating via an odd form of hax, so I plan to remove it in this CRT. There are statements of Level 5s being able to withstand nukes or destroy a nuclear shelter, but... the one who can withstand a nuke does it via hax (Accelerator), the one who said a level 5 can destroy a nuclear shelter hasn't really seen them go all out (Touma and Misaka), and the one time that a a level 5 actually destroyed a nuclear shelter only 1/6th of it was destroyed. It would be much better to scale them to Mikoto's 8-A feats, since Kakine and Accelerator are vastly superior to Misaka in terms of hax but haven't demonstrated much if any AP feats by themselves... excluding the unique forms/keys that they only have - and Accelerator's special High 6-A attack, of course.
  • 7-A Tiering for Saint-Tier characters... I'm not actually sure on where this came from, ngl. I think the 7-A Rating comes from a character named Hel who fought Silvia and Brunhild Eiktobel at the same time and wasn't defeated, but... Silvia is flat-out High 6-C, Brunhid scales to 7-A due to Kanzaki Kaori who scales to Hel who fought... You get the point. Using other characters led me to this point as well, since all of the Saint-Tier folk scale to Kanzaki in some form or another... Me thinks that somebody just forgot to remove the 7-A ratings when the High 6-C ratings were applied, or I am missing something entirely. It also doesn't help that Gabriel, the person who is used as an example in Kanzaki's AP, is labeled as 7-A due to her being able to use Kanzaki uses her special "Yuisen" move, which powers her up and makes her High 6-C. (I think somebody just messed it up somewhere... I also blame the fact that ToAru profiles are a mess, but I suppose I can help clean it up in my later ToAru CRTs.)


So... What to do?


  • Possibly get rid of Misaka's 7-C Rating.
  • Change Kakine's and Accelerator's 7-B Rating to a 8-A Rating since there aren't any good enough justifications to keep 'em there
  • Remove 7-A Ratings for various profiles as it seems to be an outdated thingy.
  • Decide how Touma & Accelerator's physicals scale to the stuff that I have listed, how the canon spin-off material affects the verse as well, and how everyone else scales to this stuff as Touma (and Accelerator to a small degree) are the best people for the non-saint tier (and above characters) to scale from.


My Proposal


... Well, this is a bothersome thing. My calculations are important, but the blatant feats I have makes everything messy.

I have two options in my head right now.

1. Scale every comparable to Kuroko to Kuroko's feat of keeping up with a Hard Taping-Using Houjou, who can keep up with Junko who can injure Gunha slightly, by giving them At Most 8-A Ratings and scale everyone else who isn't comparable to Kuroko to either my 9-A or 8-B calcs - Scale Level 5s (Mugino, Misaka, Gunha, Accelerator, and Kakine) to 7-C due to Gunha's feat of being superior to a Full Power Junko Hokaze that is superior to a Hard Taping-using Houjou that has a 10x multiplier and the fact that Misaka can give Gunha somewhat of a fight if she isn't holding back - Touma & Accelerator are given At Least 8-A/7-C, Likely High 6-C rating due to their feats of enduring crap that is way beyond what other characters have endured on-screen.

2. Ignore the blatant feats entirely, and just focus on using the calcs. For better or for worst. Idk.


Ehh.... Smarter people can figure things out faster than I and find a possible solution, so... heh, please help or something, I suppose. Also, once this thread gets moving, I'll post a comment that will list every character who will be affected by this CRT.
 
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So what Touma's durability feat is concerned... well, as I already said in the calc we should debate if it is usable. I can say that scaling it around in any way I am very sceptical about.
The thing about the feat is that it was against an attack which Touma blocked with IB, but that was only partially negated and hence blew him back. One could compare that to how Aiwass' attacks were partially negated and he also survived those throwing him backwards... just that Aiwass' attacks are like a billion times stronger.
I'm very tempted to say that this is fundamentally a feat for IBs partial negation somehow letting him endure it more so than a base durability feat. There are just tons of showings of Touma getting injured by lesser stuff to go against it. All front the general sentiment that any martial artist or gun user would walk all over him.
Even if we accepted it for him, I wouldn't scale it to those who harm him, for basically the same reason. Too many instances of much weaker stuff harming him.

What other stuff is concerned:
The Accelerator shockwave thing doesn't work, 'cause calc stacking. It's tanking of unquantified impacts.
Thor's thing indeed has IB helping it and hence can't be used.
Vento's Striking Strength is 9-C and she just grazed him.
Stiyl's attack wasn't full power, as he didn't intend to cause serious harm to Touma.
Birdway wasn't trying to kill him either, just show him how hopeless his situation is and give up.
Rensa's (or more so Kakine's) could be more serious, but then the impact force is explicitly said to be "like a car".
So I don't think any of those are much support.

Accel scales to Touma's current Street level AP already. That much is fine.
The stuff supporting higher values for Accel has problems again:
Kakine's attacks, as they reach Accel, don't scale to Kakine's AP. He is bound to only using attacks that fit into Accel's "safe parameters" to hurt him and there is no reason to believe those actually can be delivered with full AP. In fact, they likely can't, as anything with that much energy would automatically be disqualified from being safe. The entire idea is to take something weak like sunlight and make it harmful (via physics breaking) without ramping it up to the power of a laser.
The second Kakine feat had him not fully implement the reflection... but partially he did. So those are also not full force.
And I doubt that Qliphah's powers ending Accel's out of control results in an attack with full force / deadliness. Planet level durability would be nonsensical anyway for someone that could be shot by a regular gun.

Neither Junko nor Seigo scale to Gunha. Seigo's fight was entirely off-screen and just like with Junko he was likely not operating at full capacity. Gunha's power and with it his durability fluctuate widely. Both by him holding back and by his determination. This is the guy that could be shot through the heart and hurt with an ice pick by regular people on a different occasion.

Don't think you can use the 10x multiplier for hard taping like that.
Junko tries not to kill, so base Arei obviously doesn't fully scale to her strength.
The Arei breaking a tree thing is solid, though, if you can quantify it. That can scale to Kuroko's durability (although clearly on the high-end), I suppose, and from there we see where scaling takes us.

For the Accel manga feats... gonna admit that I have the latter parts of the manga not in my head. Does that have scaling relevance outside of the Accel manga characters?

Mikoto's 7-C rating calc... the method hasn't been disproven yet. Although we have introduced new lightning scaling rules, so it doesn't scale around (which I think we didn't do). I could see people disagree with it at some point... but that hasn't happened yet, so for now I take it.

Disagree with the 7-B downgrade. The nuclear shelter mentioned is said to be able to withstand nukes. Its purpose is supposed to shield those inside from nukes. If 1/6th of the shelter were to be destroyed by a nuke (i.e. the entire entrance blown open so that there is a direct way inside) then everyone inside would die from radiation and stuff. Which would mean it would have failed its job.
Minor support could be given by the fact that Kakine believed to be able to take on all armies in the world completely unharmed.

7-A comes as baseline for saints due to scaling above a regular magician like Hel, yes. However, Hel doesn't scale to saints, as her fight doesn't give us the evidence for that. Hence Kanzaki fighting Hel doesn't scale indirectly to Silvia.
All saints scale to Kanzaki in some form... but it depends on whether Kanzaki uses her Yuisen boost or not how we scale.
For Gabriel... maybe the profile needs to be upgraded (although nobody scales) or the justification needs to be altered. Which depends on whether Gabriel actually managed to match Yuisen in some feat or whether Kanzaki always shattered his attacks with it. Need to reread that scene, but no time right now.



TL;DR Touma's feats aren't solid and too contradicted. I would keep him where he is, unless he over several corners gets tree-breaking scaling from Arei and that's higher.
7-B ratings for Kakine and Accel can stay IMO.
Nobody scales to Gunha due to his varying power level making that impossible (unless you are blatantly above all levels like Accel and Kakine).
Gabriel gets maybe upgraded or the justification changed.
Saints stay where they are.
 
I think most low tier characters scaling to "9B, possibly 9A" would be good enough, i completely disagree with scaling them to tier 6/7. That's mainly cause it's always made clear that Touma isn't even close to Saint Tier.


Gabriel gets maybe upgraded or the justification changed.
Saints stay where they are.
This is the part i have more problems with:

1 - Afaik, it's never stated anywhere that the Gabriel in Angel Fall was weaker than the one in WW3.

2 - I have no idea what Gabriel even did to get a "stronger than Mjolnir" in it's AP section and why that wouldn't apply to his Angel Fall self (as said above, there isn't anything i know stating they are different).

If either of these points above causes a change, there will either be an upgrade or a massive downgrade.
 
Mikoto's 7-C rating calc... the method hasn't been disproven yet. Although we have introduced new lightning scaling rules, so it doesn't scale around (which I think we didn't do). I could see people disagree with it at some point... but that hasn't happened yet, so for now I take it.
Also, i don't know which rules you're talking about here, but we do scale Gunha's powers to Mikoto's Lightning even with the H7A feat removed.
 
Got'cha, got'cha.

Have heard all of you loud and clear, and am glad to see some progress here.

In terms of Gabriel... Wasn't Kanzaki also holding back to some degree so that she could "save" Gabriel by sending her back to heaven? I am also pretty sure that Kanzaki also defended against some of Gabriel's water attacks. For 7-A, I think we should just remove it and replace it with High 6-C, Likely far higher for Saint tier folks, since, as you said, we didn't see Hel's fight - and as Dragnoir said, I don't think Gabriel got any weaker during WW3, and she only got weaker due to Acqua's efforts. There is also that High 7-A thing I posted in ToAru Disccusion, but idk.

In terms of Touma's durability... Honestly, it is weird, IMO. Kamachi states that Touma is a normal teenage boy but he does stuff that is way beyond normal people and I am pretty sure that there are some scenes in where he just flat-out beats normal people -honestly, I just think Kamachi, like all writers regarding their, just didn't consider how powerful that their feats make them nor did they even thought to consider the tiers/power levels that we would label their actions. I would argue that the partial-negation feats are still viable to Touma's durability since his body has to withstand the force, and that the Aiwass stuff is a clear outliner, which all series has one way or another.

In terms for Accelerator Manga... Scavenger does appear again in the Railgun manga, Esther cameos in the Dark Matter manga, so that very much implies that the manga events for Accelerator's manga did happen. There is also the weird thing in where Hitokawa Hasami / Huotou fought Naru, paper golem-using girl, without Esther enhancing her, and matching her somewhat blow-to-blow - Huotou's enhancement comes from Esther giving her dirt-armor, so that implies Hasami's dead body is capable of doing that force naturally, for lack of a better term, which does fit with my calc that gave Touma a 8-B rating.

For the Tobio twins... serve as a relatively good baseline for Judgment term folks since we know that their power is essentially a copy of naruto's rasengan that doesn't directly enhance their physical capabilities

In terms of tree-breaking, I found this from Jasonsmith, which details the horizontal hammering off a tree, that I think fits what Arei did to that tree and what happened to Touma and that conifer tree in NT10 when Silvia came to rock his shit. Low-End is 9-B (1542516.355J) and High End is 9-A (98721046.69), which fits around the 9-B and 9-A results I got from some of my calcs.

In terms of the 7-B Rating... that is a good point, DT. Although, if possible, I do want to give Kakine (First Key) and possibly Accel (Pre-Headshot) At Least 8-A, Likely 7-B Ratings due to, well, only Post-Headshot Accelerator being the only who has a scene in where a LV5 did damage to a nuclear shelter... Honestly, if I recall, Misaka's 7-C lighting comes from her body and not actually from storm clouds, and nukes can be 7-C in this scene, so maybe Kakine and possibly Accel could have At Least 7-C, Likely 7-B Ratings.
 
Oh, ye. Just realized something. Leivinia has a calc-less justification in her durability that states that she is 8-A in durability, and Index has 8-C attack potency, which I think stems from Misaka's 8-C Railgun that has been since removed. Should probably fix that.
 
Hm, ye. I think Index's AP was just left alone since it was forgotten to remove Misaka's 8-C rating from her profile until recently... somehow. 'sides Misaka's 8-C calc is the only 8-C in the verse... Gotta figure out what to do with Birdway, tbh. Am thinking of giving her At Least 8-A, Likely 7-A/High 6-C (If Gab gets upgraded) in attack potency and maybe do the same to her durability via magic.
 
Also, i am nearly 100% sure the weapons Aleister used against Touma weren't 7A at all, indeed that's an old concern of mine, Aleister's profile has no mention to his physical stats in the Tier Section and it doesn't explain which spells scale to 7A.
 
Also, i am nearly 100% sure the weapons Aleister used against Touma weren't 7A at all, indeed that's an old concern of mine, Aleister's profile has no mention to his physical stats in the Tier Section and it doesn't explain which spells scale to 7A.
I think it was due to Ales-tan fighting Knight Leader and Kanzaki... or something. I vaguely recall that Ales-tan fought them and she was able to win/get away.

I meant her dura, it has a 8B end for reasons i don't know lol.
Again, I think that comes from the fact that somebody forgot to upgrade The Misaka Key in the A.A.A page since in Misaka's own page, it is listed as Multi-City Block Level.
 
There are more quotes.
As a member of God's Right Seat, and also a Saint, it was a devastating strike released by a monster.

The boy's body hanging on the mace flew off the metal bridge at a cannon-like speed, through the handles, colliding several times with the dark and icy surface of the water several hundred meters away. As it was too fast, the boy's body bounced 2 to 3 times before sinking beside a cruise boat, causing the river water to pop up like a water pillar.

After a while, a huge explosion could be heard.

Without confirming whether his target was dead, Acqua turned his back on Itsuwa.

Finally, he said,

"Just one day."
Dainslait Marian Slingendyer walked across the white snow while wielding that golden sword of dreadful power. Har gait seemed to express her persistent spite. Her legs wobbled unreliably yet she never fell. It was as if the soles of her feet were stuck to the ground with pure black coal tar.

Othinus could not use any real magic, so Kamijou Touma stopped forward in her place

From a distance of twenty meters. Marian willfully swung the sword as it brushing cobwebs off a tree branch

"Cut away Olympus of the Greeks Summon Titan, the cursed giant

An instant later, something burst up from directly below Kamijou and raised him up 120 meters.

"Ch bah!?

At first, he did not even realize he was holding his breath

His vision was spinning and filled with white. The distance to the ground quickly grew overwhelmingly large and he finally realized he had been launched to a height rivaling a thirty-story building. Only then did he notice what had launched him so high.

It was a colossal humanoid figure.

A man as large as a high-rise building burst from the ground. That mass of muscle and bones with five meter fists rose up from directly below Kamijou. Rather than being struck, Kamijou had been lifted up on top of the giant. As the boy was swung around in every direction, he was not slammed to the ground far below. He instead fell on the giant's upper arm which was right below his feet

"Bgah!! Chht Pant pant...cough cough
 
Huh, I almost completely forgot about Touma's fight with Marian.

Also, for anyone wondering what MrOMG posted that isn't translated to english - it is this. It is Touma getting yeet'ed by Aquca after he knocked him the f out.
 
Also, I got this quote from somebody who looked at Touma after said encounter with Aquca - source is To Aru Majutsu no Index Volume 16, Chapter 2, Part 1

"Let me explain this for a while, so all ordinary folks should calm down. Now for the specifics: the patient's entire body is covered in bruises from blunt trauma, and he has a slight concussion. He also showed signs of dislocation in his right shoulder and left foot. His insides are also a bit damaged from the impacts."

"…In other words, you just can't determine his condition now, right?"

The huge, black-beetle haired, man carefully chose his words before asking.

The doctor exhaled deeply.

"It should be considered a miracle… the worst case scenario would have been if oxygen were unable to flow into his brain well enough from being underwater for so long… that was really dangerous. Fortunately, there wasn't too much harm from it,"

The young male doctor said as he looked through the digitalized injury report.

"However… even with multiple witnesses, the 'reason' that caused this is still unbelievable. The human body was blown away from the metal bridge several hundred meters, bouncing off the lake a few times and finally sunk into the water… though I can't believe this, but to be caught up in such a serious situation, it's amazing that he would dare to even take a walk outside.""Let me explain this for a while, so all ordinary folks should calm down. Now for the specifics: the patient's entire body is covered in bruises from blunt trauma, and he has a slight concussion. He also showed signs of dislocation in his right shoulder and left foot. His insides are also a bit damaged from the impacts."
 
In a future CRT, Aseka. This CRT is meant to upgrade people and fix tiering issues... Oh ye, I just realized something. So, Leivinia's Durability is Multi-City Block Level due to her having fifty tons of airplane fuel exploding essentially exploding on her and withstanding the blast point-blank with no injuries whatsoever, 50 tons is 45359.237 kg, the energy density of jet fuel is 43.5 MJ/kg - 45359.237 kilograms * 43.5 MJ/kg = 1973126809500 joules, or 471.58 tons of TNT (Multi-City Block).

“Stay away! You need to fall back and wait for another opportunity to-!!”

“That’s all I need to know,” she said, cutting him off.

Immediately afterwards, the window covering one wall shattered.

The window was over three stories tall and over three hundred meters across, but the entire area of reinforced glass shattered all at once.

The cause was clear.

A giant tanker truck filled with fifty tons of airplane fuel had smashed through the window and into the central lobby at full speed.

Birdway was aboard it.

However, she was not in the driver’s seat. She was standing on its roof in a daunting pose.

Birdway must have been using some kind of spell because not a single shard of the glass she had shattered touched her.

“Hah…?”

Still sitting atop Kamijou and Mikoto, Cendrillon cocked her head to the side and stiffened.

Birdway ignored her and spoke into her cell phone.

“Hold down her legs.”

Kamijou stretched out his arm like a drowning man reaching for something to grab onto.

In doing so, he managed to slow Cendrillon’s movements by a few seconds.

That was more than enough to decide things.

It was a direct hit.

A great roar soared right past Kamijou’s face as he lay on his back. The ground clearance for large American vehicles like that was quite high, so Kamijou and Mikoto managed to remain below the vehicle while Cendrillon who was sitting atop them was hit by the front of the truck.

“Gh-gh-gah…!?”

Cendrillon tried to shout something, but the tanker truck moving at nearly 200 kph did not give her the opportunity.

The truck continued on and slammed into the wall of the central lobby.

The record for the loudest noise in the battle was broken again and again. This new sound deafened Kamijou’s ears. A large crack ran through the wall, fragments flew through the air, and something like dust billowed up. The driver’s compartment of the tanker truck was crushed in like an empty can.

Given the state of the truck, Birdway should not have gotten off lightly from her position on its roof, but for some reason she was perfectly fine. She landed lightly on the floor of the central lobby.

“There,” said the young girl as she played with her hair. “Honestly, I can’t believe all of you let yourselves collapse all over the place so easily. It was a little tricky working the wheels through the gaps between you.”

“Y-you monster…” said Kamijou in a trembling voice as he sat up.

Cendrillon’s spell must have been forcibly dispelled because the men ceased groaning and shouting.

“I thought we needed that Cendrillon girl to find Gremlin’s hideout and learn about their plan!? Wasn’t that a little much!? This is well beyond needing to call an ambulance!”

“Not necessarily,” said Birdway as she lightly waved her right hand. At some point a wand had appeared there. “See? It looks like we can’t deal with Gremlin using ordinary means.”

“?”

Kamijou was about to let out a puzzled voice, but then he heard a creaking noise.

It sounded like a metal sheet being bent. The noise was joined by other similar noises and they grew slowly but surely louder and more frequent.

Between the tanker truck’s smashed driver’s compartment and the smashed wall, something was moving and breaking the metal panels in a way that made them seem weaker than paper.

It was a finger.

A slender, feminine finger was sticking out.

The sight was similar to someone sticking their hand in the closing door of a train or elevator and forcing it back open.

“Cen… drillon…!?”

“Of course. Cinderella was a flawless princess in front of the prince. A mistake would be unthinkable. All the external factors are readjusted so that it remains that way. I guess that convenient ‘winner’s aura’ is the ball. It seems something that is nothing more than a large mass will not be enough to put an end to her aspirations.”

A clear gap appeared between the tanker truck and the wall.

Eyes covered in blood peered from within.

“However,” said Birdway as she spun her wand around in front of her. “Cinderella’s dress has a limit to its functionality. Specifically, a time limit of midnight. The changing of the date has meaning, but if you take it to refer to the ending of a one-night dream, there is a simpler symbol that can be used. Namely…”

As Birdway spoke, she stopped spinning her wand around.

It was pointing toward the tanker truck.

At some point, a gold pocket watch with a narrow chain had been coiled around the wand.

Where its hands pointed does not need to be said.

However, it further reinforced the symbol and role she was using.

“Dawn.”

Immediately afterwards, the fifty tons of airplane fuel ignited and intense heat and light filled the central lobby.

While it was better than having it sprayed into the air and vaporized, airplane fuel still had very different characteristics to gasoline.

Kamijou immediately grabbed Mikoto and hid behind the nearby pillar.

Mikoto blushed, but she still managed to hold out her right hand and used magnetism to create a wall of steel objects that protected the dumbfounded airport workers. The men in black suits knew much better than Kamijou and the others just what kind of person Birdway was, so they had already fled the area at full speed.

Kamijou did not have time to check what Accelerator and Hamazura Shiage did.

The fuel exploded and all his senses were blotted out.
Even as an intense flash of light filled the entire central lobby, Kamijou had no idea if he was doing all he could to protect himself.

His vision did not start returning until about thirty seconds later.

It took him another ten seconds before he realized that proved that he was still alive.

He saw flames.

He also saw a girl spinning a wand in one hand while standing amid a sea of unnatural flames that were more white than crimson.

She stuck her other hand into the remains of the tanker truck and pulled something out.

That something was Cendrillon’s battered form. Birdway was holding her by her blonde hair. Parts of her dress had melted and she had burns on her skin, but it was still strange for her to be in one piece after being that close to an explosion like that.

Leivinia Birdway stood alone amid the flames, holding her target by the hair.

“That settles the opening battle,” she said, sounding bored.Even as an intense flash of light filled the entire central lobby, Kamijou had no idea if he was doing all he could to protect himself.
 
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Hmm, this CRT isn't getting much attention, atm. The curse of not being a popular fandom, huh? Can't really go anywhere with this CRT without somebody else commenting first, but I do have to say that I truly believe Touma (and those that scale to him and/or stated to be superior to him) and that the statements regarding about guns and martial artist - Guns could be attributed to them not being able to be negated by IB and the it is a very notable thing in author's minds that characters have superhuman durability to blunt force hits but normal durability for things like guns and swords; martial artist could be attributed to them skill-stomping Touma... and the only character that comes to my mind that actually skill-stomped Touma (in a purely physical brawl) is Tsuchimikado to the point that he couldn't fight back because Tsuchimikado kept using dirty moves that he couldn't keep up with.
 
Yet another thing to fix with profiles... Hm, maybe Aleister's 7-A Tiering via Magic is scaling to Leivinia, who is 7-A herself, due to him being superior to her or smth?
 
Yet another thing to fix with profiles... Hm, maybe Aleister's 7-A Tiering via Magic is scaling to Leivinia, who is 7-A herself, due to him being superior to her or smth?
It's just not indexed correctly as it doesn't say which spells scale to that rating (both Mathers and Leivinia's profiles make a clear distiction between physicals and magic, for example).
 
Weird, wonder why that is the case for Aleister... but for a change of topic... Well, Dragnoir, you got anything to say about what calc value should be used for Non-Saint Level Mages, Espers, and Touma? I know that you said something about low-level espers scaling to 9-B, Likely 9-A, but wanna hear more from ya about this topic.
 
Weird, wonder why that is the case for Aleister... but for a change of topic... Well, Dragnoir, you got anything to say about what calc value should be used for Non-Saint Level Mages, Espers, and Touma? I know that you said something about low-level espers scaling to 9-B, Likely 9-A, but wanna hear more from ya about this topic.
Not just espers, i think every character currently at 9C could be upgraded to 9B possibly 9A, given there is scaling or statements to put them at the same level as the characters who did the 9B and 9A feats. If you ever calc that tree feat from Junko vs Houjou it would support this even more i think.

I think Mages and Espers are pretty much case by case, some may scale to the 8B feat, others not, you get it.

Touma and the low tier characters scaling to 8B via Touma's 8B feat seems a bit too much in my opinion, kinda outlierish.

This is the part i have more problems with:

1 - Afaik, it's never stated anywhere that the Gabriel in Angel Fall was weaker than the one in WW3.

2 - I have no idea what Gabriel even did to get a "stronger than Mjolnir" in it's AP section and why that wouldn't apply to his Angel Fall self (as said above, there isn't anything i know stating they are different).

If either of these points above causes a change, there will either be an upgrade or a massive downgrade.
My concerns with Aleister's profile (as well as others) can be dealt with later, but i think this specifically is really important to this thread, as it is mainly a scaling chain issue.
 
Not just espers, i think every character currently at 9C could be upgraded to 9B possibly 9A, given there is scaling or statements to put them at the same level as the characters who did the 9B and 9A feats. If you ever calc that tree feat from Junko vs Houjou it would support this even more i think.
I would like to repeat this comment that I made in a previous post.

In terms of tree-breaking, I found this from Jasonsmith, which details the horizontal hammering off a tree, that I think fits what Arei did to that tree and what happened to Touma and that conifer tree in NT10 when Silvia came to rock his shit. Low-End is 9-B (1542516.355J) and High End is 9-A (98721046.69), which fits around the 9-B and 9-A results I got from some of my calcs.
Don't think I can calc the actual feat itself since the manga panel don't show the full tree, but Jasonsmith is a CGM, so there blogpost of common feats holds some weight here and DMUA, another CGM, said that everything checks out. So I can probably use this here.

I think Mages and Espers are pretty much case by case, some may scale to the 8B feat, others not, you get it.

Touma and the low tier characters scaling to 8B via Touma's 8B feat seems a bit too much in my opinion, kinda outlierish.
We could like say... "At Least 9-A, Possibly 8-B" or something like that. Might have to talk about that. Personally, I feel Touma's 8-B feat is solid after he has survived all of the shit that was dealt to him, and there are few that are stated to be directly equal or superior to him (with profiles) are The Harem Accepter/Kamisato, Kagun, and Tsuchimikado are the only ones that come to my mind... Maybe, Hamazura too, but idk.
My concerns with Aleister's profile (as well as others) can be dealt with later, but i think this specifically is really important to this thread, as it is mainly a scaling chain issue.
As for this.... Yeah, I am more and more sure that WWIII Gab and AF Gab are roughly the same in power. In fact, I am 70% sure that the only mention that Gab gotten weaker is after Acqua showed up to absorb 30-50% of Gabs power in WWIII, but... All of Gabs fight with MoV & Carrisa and Accel & Hyouka came before said event. Hm, maybe it is cuz Gab showed up as Misha?

Honestly, I think Hel's 7-A feat is probably only best used as a supporting feat more than anything else since I am pretty sure that we don't see full fight with Hel. Like... Maybe, we can have Kanzaki (and everyone who scales to her) downscale from the High 6-C Value as a result of fighting a possibly not as strong Gab in Angel Fall?

Edit: Thinking about the Hel thing even more... I am 100% sure that Hel has never met or encountered Kanzaki, she has only fought Sliva & Brunhild and got beaten by Thor offscreen. Sure, Brunhild fought Kanzaki, but I don't think that is enough for Hel's singular feat to scale to Kanzaki.
 
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Well, I am here again. BUMPing, sorta... Am also here, after reseraching some stuff, to say stuff that goes against the 7-B tiering for Accel and Kakine.

Here, I go.

According to this thread, nukes have varying power levels. They can range from 10 tons (davy crockett), 1 kilotons, 15 kilotons (Hiroshima), 100 kilotons - and then there is the Tsar Bomba, the strongest nuke, which is 50-58 Megatons but could be much higher according to the vs wiki page about it.

I would like to use this time to say that Accelerator and Kakine have never had any statements in the light novel that had them directly tank a nuke other than a statement in where Accelerator can survive a nuke via his High 1-C hax to reflect the dangerous stuff away from him - and even then, it was just a a statement [1]. There is also this statement that states that an attack with a long "charge-time" which creates a large ball of plasma that is 10,000C and can dig out a nuclear shelter, but it is never fired nor has Accelerator even used that move again (also it was made by a super genius middle schooler but eh...) [2].

Also, I got this, which states that Kakine had the power to single-handedly take on an entire military unit and not the armies of the world, despite what DT has said [3]... side note, but I am pretty sure that only Accelerator has the statement of being able to take on the armies of the world and it is only due to his hax, but eh.

Wanna add that the only calc in the ToAru Verse that is even close to 7-B (but am pretty sure it is Low 7-B due to it being 6.16 Megatons) is this narutoforum calc at the very bottom of this collection of narutoforum toaru calcs. And the only person who ever tanked it was a guy named Terra via hax that messed with durability - he could make something ignore the durability of one specific thing or make something invincible against one specific thing, to be exact.

Although... Misaka Mikoto does have a 7-C rating for her lighting... not from the skies but from her hair bangs... Am honestly not sure why her electricity is separated from her magnetism stuff - considering that the latter is a sub-ability for the former, and that they both draw from the same source of power from within Mikoto, for lack of a better way of explaining it. Would be honestly easier to make her a flat-out 7-C since it would help Accelerator's feat of destroying 1/6th of a nuclear shelter.
 
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Also, I got this, which states that Kakine had the power to single-handedly take on an entire military unit and not the armies of the world, despite what DT has said [3]... side note, but I am pretty sure that only Accelerator has the statement of being able to take on the armies of the world and it is only due to his hax, but eh.
Accelerator and Dark Matter controlled the organic and inorganic powers respectively.
Different from this world, this was 'organic' and 'inorganic' in terms of a different world. The One Who Wields the Power of God and The One Who Has Touched the Territory of God. Now the odds of victory were even, only that unlike Accelerator, Kakine hadn't lost himself.
An unprecedented power was expanding within him.
And, he had perfectly mastered this power.
Now the position of the #1 and #2 of Academy City was about to be reversed. This was neither a bluff nor an exaggeration. He now believed even if he fought against all the armies in the world, and even every esper in Academy City, he could emerge victorious and unharmed.


Although... Misaka Mikoto does have a 7-C rating for her lighting... not from the skies but from her hair bangs... Am honestly not sure why her electricity is separated from her magnetism stuff - considering that the latter is a sub-ability for the former, and that they both draw from the same source of power from within Mikoto, for lack of a better way of explaining it. Would be honestly easier to make her a flat-out 7-C since it would help Accelerator's feat of destroying 1/6th of a nuclear shelter.
Disagree, so far her railgun and other things have shown no feat even close to her lightning.
 
Accelerator and Dark Matter controlled the organic and inorganic powers respectively.
Different from this world, this was 'organic' and 'inorganic' in terms of a different world. The One Who Wields the Power of God and The One Who Has Touched the Territory of God. Now the odds of victory were even, only that unlike Accelerator, Kakine hadn't lost himself.
An unprecedented power was expanding within him.
And, he had perfectly mastered this power.
Now the position of the #1 and #2 of Academy City was about to be reversed. This was neither a bluff nor an exaggeration. He now believed even if he fought against all the armies in the world, and even every esper in Academy City, he could emerge victorious and unharmed.
Wait, wait. Isn't that from Kakine's awakening-thingy? I even got the passage right here. And you know as well as I do on what happened immediately after.

Now the position of the #1 and #2 of Academy City was about to be reversed. This was neither a bluff nor an exaggeration. He now believed even if he fought against all the armies in the world, and even every esper in Academy City, he could emerge victorious and unharmed.

“Hahaha!! Uwahahahaha!!”

Kakine laughed and waved his completely awakened six wings down at Accelerator.

He no longer saw Accelerator as a threat, but only a thing to test his new powers on.

Splat.

Kakine Teitoku’s body was pressed into the asphalt by a great power.

“Wha…?!”

He completely didn’t understand what just happened.

Accelerator’s wings didn’t move at all. He only stared at Kakine and slightly moved his hands. With just that, he defeated Kakine who had absolute power and ground him deep into the ground.

His right hand that had the Tweezers on it was torn off from the elbow downwards.

(Ah! …Uwah! Wh-Wha?! Just what is—)

Accelerator must have changed vectors and energies of some sort, and redirected those towards Kakine as an attack. Even though he understood, even if Accelerator had gathered all the energies in this world, this phenomenon shouldn’t have happened. The Kakine Teitoku now couldn’t lose to this world.

Unreasonable.

Inexplicable.

With an overwhelming presence Accelerator walked step by step towards Kakine Teitoku. His steps were like the countdown until the end of Kakine’s life, when it reached zero it would be all over. And, Accelerator had reached that last step.

“Ha, ha.”

“—yjrpEVILqw”

“Bastard…! Damn it, so this is how it is!! Your mission is…?!”

No reply, just a fist filled with killing intent.

An overwhelming slaughter had begun.
He never showed off any feats or actions, and he only got this "power-up" after looking at Black Wing!Accelerator - and I repeat, he got curb-stomped immediately. At best, you can attribute a hypothetical 7-B rating to NT6!Kakine/Beetle 05, and not Base/OT!Kakine. Or a At Least 8-A, Possibly 7-B for him.

Like... Now that I think about, Kakine, in OT, didn't really have much fights (he doesn't really any "true" fights to his name, even now, if we are honest). He curb-stomped Mugino (who couldn't really fight back), curb-stomped Kinuhata (who couldn't fight back), curb-stomped that Professor guy, curb-stomped Uiharu (who couldn't really fight back and he was just torturing to know where Last Order is), and Accelerator wasn't really paying him much attention as he was half-busy figuring out his dark matter and making sure to be a proper villain by making sure that the civilians stayed safe by protecting them all (so he essentially wasn't even taking Kakine seriously at all) - heck, Kakine was in a puddle of his own blood after the part transition after they had one final clash and Accelerator only had his black wings out due to Kakine stabbing Yomikawa with his Dark Matter Wings in front of him while also saying words to trigger the heck out of him.
Disagree, so far her railgun and other things have shown no feat even close to her lightning.
Just spit-balling.
 
I would like to repeat this comment that I made in a previous post.


Don't think I can calc the actual feat itself since the manga panel don't show the full tree, but Jasonsmith is a CGM, so there blogpost of common feats holds some weight here and DMUA, another CGM, said that everything checks out. So I can probably use this here.
Sure, i missed that post of yours, thanks, i think that blogpost and value could be added to the OP alongside the other calcs.
We could like say... "At Least 9-A, Possibly 8-B" or something like that. Might have to talk about that. Personally, I feel Touma's 8-B feat is solid after he has survived all of the shit that was dealt to him, and there are few that are stated to be directly equal or superior to him (with profiles) are The Harem Accepter/Kamisato, Kagun, and Tsuchimikado are the only ones that come to my mind... Maybe, Hamazura too, but idk.
Any beating Touma received doesn't justify such an upgrade. Acqua is H6C, even an 8B wouldn't survive a beating from him, same goes to Silvia, and as DT explained some attacks he received weren't tier 8 or higher to begin with.

Hamazura directly fought with Touma during SS1, same goes to a few other characters, that would end up upgrading way too many characters to 8B.


Hm, maybe it is cuz Gab showed up as Misha?
I don't think that was ever stated to diminish its power, and wasn't Gabriel Misha for the entire fight with Carissa too?

Regardless of that, Gabriel scaling to Mjolnir still doesn't sit well with me.
Honestly, I think Hel's 7-A feat is probably only best used as a supporting feat more than anything else since I am pretty sure that we don't see full fight with Hel. Like... Maybe, we can have Kanzaki (and everyone who scales to her) downscale from the High 6-C Value as a result of fighting a possibly not as strong Gab in Angel Fall?

Edit: Thinking about the Hel thing even more... I am 100% sure that Hel has never met or encountered Kanzaki, she has only fought Sliva & Brunhild and got beaten by Thor offscreen. Sure, Brunhild fought Kanzaki, but I don't think that is enough for Hel's singular feat to scale to Kanzaki.
Agreed, but i think we should talk about downscaling after figuring out which values should actually be used.
 
Sure, i missed that post of yours, thanks, i think that blogpost and value could be added to the OP alongside the other calcs.
Done.
Any beating Touma received doesn't justify such an upgrade. Acqua is H6C, even an 8B wouldn't survive a beating from him, same goes to Silvia, and as DT explained some attacks he received weren't tier 8 or higher to begin with.

Hamazura directly fought with Touma during SS1, same goes to a few other characters, that would end up upgrading way too many characters to 8B.
Considered, and will say that is a problem on its own. Will probably need to find some more 8-B feats before 8-B Touma can be considered. Although, I'll say that this isn't the first time on this site in where a single calc has upgraded a large amount of characters before.

For now.... At Least 9-B, Possibly/Likely 9-A sounds good to me. But one day, I'll find the evidence to upgrade the lower cast mems to 8-B.
I don't think that was ever stated to diminish its power, and wasn't Gabriel Misha for the entire fight with Carissa too?

Regardless of that, Gabriel scaling to Mjolnir still doesn't sit well with me.
Anybody got ideas on where that even came from? If we don't know... We could possibly use this. For those wondering, it is the mountain and island level requirements page in the VSBW - specifically, it is the section in Small Mountain Destruction. We got very direct statements in where Gab vapoized mountains - but not the heights of said vaped mountains - so if Mjolnir scaling is off the table, we could the small mountain destruction section about vaporizing a mountain, which is 2.052e19 joules or 4.9 Gigatons.

Agreed, but i think we should talk about downscaling after figuring out which values should actually be used.
Yeah, true.
 
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Wait, wait. Isn't that from Kakine's awakening-thingy? I even got the passage right here. And you know as well as I do on what happened immediately after.
Just because he got stomped doesn't change the statements he got for that awakening.
He never showed off any feats or actions, and he only got this "power-up" after looking at Black Wing!Accelerator - and I repeat, he got curb-stomped immediately. At best, you can attribute a hypothetical 7-B rating to NT6!Kakine/Beetle 05, and not Base/OT!Kakine. Or a At Least 8-A, Possibly 7-B for him.
Yeah, agreed with the 8A possibly 7B rating if a downgrade comes, and we should probably re-add his awakening key if it will get such a jump in stats (iirc it was removed for lack of feats or changes from his base).
Like... Now that I think about, Kakine, in OT, didn't really have much fights (he doesn't really any "true" fights to his name, even now, if we are honest). He curb-stomped Mugino (who couldn't really fight back), curb-stomped Kinuhata (who couldn't fight back), curb-stomped that Professor guy, curb-stomped Uiharu (who couldn't really fight back and he was just torturing to know where Last Order is), and Accelerator wasn't really paying him much attention as he was half-busy figuring out his dark matter and making sure to be a proper villain by making sure that the civilians stayed safe by protecting them all (so he essentially wasn't even taking Kakine seriously at all) - heck, Kakine was in a puddle of his own blood after the part transition after they had one final clash and Accelerator only had his black wings out due to Kakine stabbing Yomikawa with his Dark Matter Wings in front of him while also saying words to trigger the heck out of him.
...

That's not exactly what happened, they clashed several times and Kakine was defeated when Accel learnt how to perfectly reflect his wings, before that they were even.
 
...

That's not exactly what happened, they clashed several times and Kakine was defeated when Accel learnt how to perfectly reflect his wings, before that they were even.
Let's look at the events of Kakine's first fight with Accelerator
Kakine found and tortured Uiharu to get Last Order's location
Accelerator threw an ATM at Kakine to save Uiharu
They chatted for a moment or two and clashed head-on
Kakine was blown backwards and smashed into a cafe
They exchanged comments again
Accelerator threw a blast of air, which Kakine immediately tried to block with his wings
Accelerator used that moment to close the distance and destroy his wings - but Kakine remade them instantly
They chatted once more, before Kakine used his Dark Matter to bypass Accelerator's reflection and did some damage to him.
They chatted about rankings and Aleister's plans while they battled some more
And immediately afterwards, there was the reveal of Accelerator protecting people while fighting Kakine and using this time to understand his Dark Matter, and we get one final clash - and we cut forward with a part transition to get the reveal of Kakine defeated.
And that is it. We also have to consider that - besides the ATM moment and Kakine's getting curb-stomp twice - Accelerator didn't have any attacks that landed on him directly as they were blocked by Kakine's wings. Also, if I recall in the Dark Matter manga that is canon, Ringo landed a direct hit on Kakine and made him cough up blood - sure, he was trying to "save" her and was probably not fighting as deadly as he should be, but it is a direct anti-feat of him being "7-B" (in durability).

... Unless you also want to make Accelerator "7-B" in durability. Since, I think, contrary to DT's statement there is no reason to believe that he isn't striking with full AP - even if his attacks don't show such force since attack potency doesn't equal destructive capability, or area of effect fallacy.

“The Dark Matter I create is matter that does not exist in this world. It’s not matter that hasn't yet been discovered, nor matter that theoretically exists, but rather matter which undeniably does not exist.”

A material made by an esper ability that could not be classified by science.

Faced by these white wings that seemed to have come from a different world and defy the laws of physics, Accelerator’s will was not shaken.

Who cares what they are? They will all be shattered by the ability to manipulate vectors.

“OK, then I’ll blast you apart along with your ‘Dark Matter’.”

With one more step forward, Accelerator could tear apart Kakine Teitoku’s heart.

However...

“You still don’t understand.”

As Kakine finished his sentence, his white wings let out a ‘swoosh’ and projected a brilliant white light.

“?!”

A burning pain forced Accelerator to back away from Kakine involuntarily. At the same time, he noticed the change in the situation.

Accelerator who could reflect all vectors was actually hurt by an outside attack.

“That was diffraction. Light or electromagnetic waves change direction when passing through narrow gaps; this is common knowledge even in high school textbooks. Using multiple gaps at the same time will make the waves interfere with each other.”

Simply put it was by diffracting light through the countless unseen gaps on the wings to change the nature of sunlight and use it to attack Accelerator. It was not that the white wings gave off light, but that the light itself was changed by diffracting through them.

“Ah, the value of things depends on how you use them. So, how does it feel to be burned to death by sunlight?”

However...

“… Go back and study up on physics, you idiot. No matter how you diffract sunlight it doesn’t change the nature of it into something like a beam of light that kills.”

“Hm, that is indeed the case with the normal physics of this world.”

Kakine’s six wings curled up and gathered strength.

“But! My Dark Matter is matter that does not exist in this world! It completely disobeys the laws of physics of this world. Sunlight that gets diffracted by the Dark Matter will also have its own set of laws! Foreign bodies are like this: by just mixing in a little bit, the world will completely change!”

Fwoom! The six wings blew up a gale wind towards Accelerator. Accelerator used his reflection to subdue the wind while trying to figure out his opponent’s aim. Looking closely, he found Kakine smiling.

“Reverse calculations, complete.”

“!?”

When Accelerator heard that he tried to dodge, but the six wings had already begun to strike. However, unlike before the six wings were used solely as blunt weapons for hitting.

A series of gacha gacha sounds exploded out from Accelerator’s body.

Accelerator, who could reflect all vectors, was blown over 10m away, hitting one of the trees on the sidewalk. The thick trunk of the tree got snapped by that one blow.

“Oof…!?”

(So the sunlight and wind from before was all for…!!)

“Accelerator, you said before you can reflect everything, but that’s actually incorrect.”

Kakine’s wings spread soundlessly.

Accelerator flew up to a rooftop, but the over twenty-meter long wings aimed at him like giant swords to strike him down.

“If you reflect sound then you can’t hear anything, and if you reflect physical objects you cannot hold anything. You subconsciously establish a filter that sees everything as harmful or not, and use your reflect to push away anything that could harm you.”

Accelerator spit out the blood in his mouth, blew apart the water cylinder on top of the building with one stomp and jumped aside using the rebound.

The white wings that struck down crashed into the building, and split the building vertically in two. Large dust clouds swelled outwards from there.

“The sunlight and wind affected by the Dark Matter are infused with 25,000 different kinds of energy. Then by observing your reflection and using a filtering system that judges which energies are deemed ‘harmful’ or not, I can use the energies that are subconsciously accepted as not harmful to attack you.”

Even if Accelerator changed the rules which his reflect was based on, Kakine Teitoku would immediately use his Dark Matter to inspect the change. The repeated attack and defense this way would only make Accelerator’s wounds get worse and worse.

“Such is Dark Matter.”

Kakine Teitoku smiled and spread his wings.

“This space which has been affected by foreign bodies is no longer the world that you know!”

Faced with this taunting, Accelerator controlled the air flow and made four tornadoes behind him.

Clash! - Index Volume 18 Chapter 5 Part 3
There is no statement here that implies Kakine isn't capable of hitting with full force lest his attacks gets hit - just statements that say that he can use the energies that are subconsciously accepted as not harmful to him (gravity, air, light, etc) to attack him via using Dark Matter to fool his reflection (until he couldn't) to attack his directly. Could be wrong, so am free to be corrected.

Which has its own problems, but we'll ignore that for now.

Just because he got stomped doesn't change the statements he got for that awakening.

Yeah, agreed with the 8A possibly 7B rating if a downgrade comes, and we should probably re-add his awakening key if it will get such a jump in stats (iirc it was removed for lack of feats or changes from his base).
His awakening key was rightfully removed and there's no reason to bring it back. Furthermore, that single statement was also just from Kakine, it would carry some more weight if it was done by another person but it could just be attributed to Kakine getting a power-trip from his power-up and momentarily having his ego boosted. Doesn't help that he doesn't have any showings

In addition, from what I have seen, 7-B Nukes are in the higher end of nukes (with the average nukes being around the Low/Actual/High 7-C levels, which probably isn't good enough from just destroying 1/6th of nuclear shelter and have a single destroying a nuclear shelter statement from a 14yr old girl (who also has one statement of being able to destroy a nuclear shelter from Touma of all people) with a charged-up move that Accelerator only used once and never fully performed it ever again.

If you really want to head down this route, it would be best to stick with 7-C for Accel and Kakine... Since the little boy nuke (a very well-known nuke) and Misaka's lightning is around that level and would be consistent with them being "stronger" than her

... Which is a bit iffy since Kakine has never encountered or fought her and Accel couldn't be touched, and have hax that Misaka can't counter or defend against other than running away for Accel and sniping at a distance for Kakine - ranking don't take power into consideration - and I am 100% sure we only have feats/statements of Kakine's wings being able to block Misaka's railgun & Mugino's meltdowner but not Misaka's lightning, thus, even if Kakine's Dark Matter scale above those two, they can only be 8-A.

[-]

On an unrelated note, Dragnoir. Should I place a TLDR Section atop of my post with the stuff we agreed on to make it easier for newcomes to understand and vote for or against? Like At Least 9-B, Likely 9-A?
 
By the way, humanity, even without the help of magic and espers, has enough firepower to destroy a planet dozens of times, and humanity tens of thousands of times.
 
Don't have direct feats for that, so probs won't help... We already have quite a few planet level ToAru folks, but that probs helps adds some consistency... I think.
 
Also, MrOMG, you got any thoughts or opinions about this matter? Both in 9-B/9-A/8-B Upgrades for the 9-C and 9-B folks, and the current matter regarding Accel and Kakine's 7-B Ratings? You seem well-versed in ToAru, so it wouldn't hurt to hear what you have want to say.
 
Although, I do know of a way that you could help, MrOMG, if you are willing... Do you know if there is any statement that says that a level 5 is comparable to a nuke? I know that there are statements of the like regarding Saints from the magic side, but they are vastly superior to everyone (that isn't Kakine, Accelerator, and possibly Gunha if he ever figures out how his power works).
 
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