(Major To Aru Revision) A Certain Magical Revision

[XDragnoir]

The text states that he has now surpassed a saint. Also him being equal to aqua just proves he would stomp Kanzaki.

Single Flash, Yuisen.
No matter how great the numbers or how strong the person, no one should be able to survive it.
Acqua’s huge mace blocked the strike and, after trading a few hits, it was clear to Kanzaki that Acqua likely knew as many spells as she did, possibly even more. Since Acqua was not an ordinary member of God’s Right Seat, he was even able to cast ordinary magic spells.
To bypass this, Kanzaki switched from Buddhism to Shintoism, but Acqua immediately changed his defensive stance. The huge amount of magic clashing between them continued to change, and in this supersonic battle another element was currently underway: A mental battle called "reading the moves".
Science and magic.
Body and spirit.
Chaos and order.
Their weapons continued to clash with each other, sending sparks flying. In this battle between two Saints, one thing was glaringly obvious.
Normally speaking, talent was not required to master magic: Magic was originally something that existed to allow people without ability to create miracles like someone with ability, but how could anyone say such a thing after witnessing this battle between two who resided within the special existence called Saint?
"... how exciting. For just one person, you people sent in your entire group. I’m truly impressed. Even I, as an enemy, have to be impressed with that boy.”
Acqua waved his five meter-long block of metal as easily as if he were waving a twig, "But be warned: Since you have placed yourself as my enemy on this battlefield, the only future you face is being defeated by my hand!"
Another explosion cut through the air.
Once Kanzaki felt the surface of the black stream behind her beginning to move, a twenty-meter column of water had already risen. Like a huge jointed hammer, it swept past the ceiling of the underground street at a terrifying pace, slamming down against Kanzaki. Kanzaki, who was already having a difficult time dealing with just Acqua's metal mace, would die if she was unable to handle this other threat.
The sound of cutting was heard.
Around Kanzaki, fighting in a death match with Acqua, something was shining. The moment Acqua noticed, the seven strikes hit the water hammer created by Acqua of the Back and caused it to return to the stream it originated from.
The Nanasen created by the steel wires.
"... I’ll be really insulted if you think that this is my full power."
Kanzaki moved her lips, and the seven strikes seem to be correcting Kanzaki’s sword trajectory as they assaulted Acqua from all angles. Acqua quickly increased his attack rate in response. Using his mace to block, turning his head to avoid, in front of Acqua, who continued to manipulate the sword and the wires—suddenly, a strong red flame surrounded him.


Sure, sure, Acqua stomped Kanzaki, he didn't have to block or dodge her attacks nor did they clash several times, sure.

Literally, the fight with Acqua places Yuisen in the same level as Acqua, while the fight with KL places Yuisen in the very bottom, there is simply no way to have the two things at the same time.

As for Base Kanzaki, she took a beating from KL sure but she wasn't receiving severe damage with each attack he got at her, she downscales from him and that's it.

 

[DontTalkDT]

The route of AF being stronger than WW3 was debunked when you proved the WW3 added energy, the route where they're equal hasn't been debunked so far.

He is? Sorry, what?

First and foremost, the scaling currently in use scales Yuisen > WW3 Gabriel. But i get that this is likely wrong.

But then the part about Acqua... Acqua at his peak is stronger than CO Carissa who is stronger than CS Carissa.

Shards Carissa < Original Carissa ~ Ascalon Acqua < Saint Acqua

Gabriel (WW3 or AF) scales below Saint Acqua and around the same place as Ascalon Acqua.

That's quite strange if you put it in the scaling chain, you know.

Kanzaki < Yuisen < Base KL < Hrunting KL = Ascalon Acqua < Saint Acqua

And yet KL dealt with Kanzaki (and Yuisen) way more easily than Acqua.

Part of this problem can be explained by his speed, as it was clearly above all other saint tier characters via statements and feats, but taking Yuisen as casually as he did could be explained by his weapon-related power null if not because it wasn't directly stated to be used.

In case the supporters agree, i am sure assumptions like this can be made.

No one that fought with Gabriel ever took Yuisen. Curtana Shards don't scale to Curtana Original.

Also, I'd say that logic behind Curtana not harming Gabriel is good if not because normal magic/spells (christian or not) don't use Telesma, so we have no idea if that statement took Telesma-baded Magic into account in that statement, not only that but the whole thing behind Curtana is that it makes the wielder the leader of angels, receiving power from Michael. I'd say that it is meant to be a holy power that is able to fight other holy powers (Carissa did imply something like this when talking with Versailles)

WW3 being stronger is also pure speculation, their stats being different isn't supported and WW3 being stronger wasn't stated at any point nor is it supported by the scaling (Acqua was nerfed, Carissa only had the Shards and KL didn't have the Blessing)


1st, as i said above they being any different has less support than them being equal.

2nd, the one Mathers summoned was the real deal, so it's a much stronger version compared to the two versions stated to be incomplete.

Even hitting twice in a roll didn't draw any blood from Kanzaki, it only sent her flying:

She immediately turned around while bringing up her scabbard for defense.
Knight Leader had merely kicked.
Even so, Kanzaki’s body of a Saint was blown away along with the guarding scabbard. While she was knocked back and lost her balance, Knight Leader sent his clenched fist into her gut.
A tremendous sound rang out.
Kanzaki’s body was blown back 10 meters without landing and she struck one of the guard carriages. The carriage was protected by a number of spiritual items, but it was still smashed to pieces from the impact and Kanzaki’s body slid along the ground after passing through it. The horses tied to the carriage panicked.
“Gah….Wha-…!?”
(I thought this was going to be an issue that normal methods weren’t going to work on, but what’s with this tremendous power…!?)
Including Saints, there was a maximum amount of power that a flesh-and-blood human could control, but he had clearly surpassed that.
___

When the values were slightly different from the current ones, Queen from One Piece downscaled from Marco via being sent flying something like 10 or so meters even tho the same attack gave him a big wound on his face and drew blood with it, i see no reason to not downscale Kanzaki.

It isn't a reasonable possibility at all, there is no mention of it actually being a weaker method through the more than 50 volumes, even tho Angel Fall is mentioned quite sometimes after OT, there just isn't support to this so what makes this a reasonable possibility if the narrative doesn't point towards this?

A human vessel was never stated to limit its power, the only thing it is know to change afaik is Gabriel's regen which has nothing to do with AP.

We don't even know if the spell was optimized or not, we only know that Fiamma added some things (Index mainly) that resulted in Gabriel being summoned outside Sasha, nothing beyond that was shown to have changed.

A better analogy than the one you used before is that Touya pressed a button by accident that by sheer luck gave him the best character possible, while Fiamma made a changes to the button that would assure he got the best character possible.

The Gabriel that would do the 6B feat would do that after the elements were restored (the elements were only restored after Gabriel fought with Carissa btw).

So in this case there is a clear reason to not scale the 6B feat to the Misha Gabriel (or incomplete + distorted Gabriel)

I have provided evidence that they're are the same both in how they're acknowledged by valid sources as the same thing, an Incomplete Archangel and nothing in the scaling or the narrative even hint that one was stronger than the other.

No one in Toaru scales to upper 7A tho, so i have no idea why you brought that up, it's completely pointless, Toaru characters scale to 247 Megatons iirc, which makes them nearly 20x weaker than baseline 6C and the vape feat

Nothing even indicates it was casual, indeed, the fact it caused damage to someone who clashed evenly with her and who made her dodge in a later point clearly means that the attack was strong, why would Carissa not use her full power to begin with? You're basically trying to say she sent a debris with just enough strength to kill a normal human and that this would still harm a 7A character, or 6C, or whatever.

Carissa's debris are her signature projectiles and are consistently used during her fight with the Saint Tiers (these are her own words) and even damaged herself:

She had not been injured by Kanzaki, Acqua, or anyone else. It had been one of the fragments from the pieces of dimensional wreckage Carissa herself had destroyed to give her time to evade.
“It looks like I’ve exceeded my limit for this game of otedama. Even with this special power, taking on 3 Saint level monsters is rather troublesome.”

Sure, Acqua with Ascalon was the strongest of the 3 fighting Carissa, KL was strong enough to be at that level, he wasn't strong enough to take the advantage alone.

It is less reasonable than the wiki-wide accepted method of downscaling a character when they take a beating without serious damage from another character.

Sure, sounds reasonable. Go ahead then.

 

[XDragnoir]

Hmmm... Okay.

And yes, I'll post 'em in this thread once I am done with doing all of them.

Could you edit the saint tiers to 6C? The 7As that would be upgraded are Kanzaki, Brunhild, KL and Mjolnir, everyone else drops to 6C.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Hmmm... Okay.

Could you edit the saint tiers to 6C? The 7As that would be upgraded are Kanzaki, Brunhild, KL and Mjolnir, everyone else drops to 6C.

Ye, no problem. Was waiting for you guys to finish talking about the Saint stuff before actually continuing with my editing. I do have some upcoming calcs (one for low 7-C Gunha (or just much higher 8-A+), more support for the ratings of 7-Cs and 8-As [and some for 9-B & 9-A] ratings and that's about it). Can probably just make another AP revision thread or smth, tho. This thread seems to be about finished.

 

[XDragnoir]

Also, i forgot Aleister when listing the 7As who would get an upgrade.

His second key should be upgraded to 6C in AP/Dura now.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Ye, plus, there are probably some others that also gets affected by the 6-C upgrade, but I'll get to 'em when I get to 'em.