There is no reason to Scale Accel's dura to 7B as his shield was up the entire fight.
Not sure what you meant with this part of your post.
As i said, that key should only come back if we plan to take the armies statement as a 7B feat.
Sure, that would help anyone seeing this thread to engage more easily.
Kakine's Dark Matter was able to bypass Accelerator's reflection shield via essentially fooling it and was able to affect him with sunlight that burned him (as Kakine can use the energies that are subconsciously accepted as not harmful to Accelerator attack Accelerator) and strike him directly with his Dark Matter wings, right?
Understood. But again that is still a vague statement that we have never seen play out, and could honestly only apply to Post-Revival/Beetle 05. And again, we only have a feat of destroying 1/6th of nuclear shelter in russia that is supposed to protect against nukes of unknown power (and from a quick use of google-fu, the average strength of a russian nuke should be 50 to 100 kilotons to 500 to 800 kilotons, but it is likely their nukes can be weaker or stronger.) and Accelerator's plasma ball, and looking at Volume 3 only, there is no statements that it could destroy academy city and only a line that said Accelerator thought that if he could calculate the flow of the wind perfectly and accurately, he held the world in his hands and had the power to destroy it; which is repeated again in the railgun manga, and even again in the anime adaptations, to my knowledge
And got'cha.
It's already CIS that he doesn't turn him into sand or even use a slicing effect like he used on a building shortly before, but I guess he wanted to display his superiority over Accelerator. Anyways, as I said, I don't see how Kakine even scales to City level in the first place.
And to be fair... Turning people into sand wasn't a thing for Kakine that Kamachi made, and only came up during the Dark Matter Manga, I think.
Oh my b. I missed this section entirely.
I'm no calc guy, but by feats it seems like an outlier, or an early hyperbolic statement similar to her lightspeed lightning.
Yep, and I was pointing it out since it fits the hyperbolic statements of Accelerator's Plasma Ball being able to "curve" a nuclear shelter (which was stated by Misaka, who probably has never actually seen a nuclear shelter before, nor did we ever seen his plasma ball completed) and Kakine's statements of being able to take on the all of the armies of the world (which was made by him, someone who doesn't know the true "strength" of his world, and could have entirely been his ego talking).
Heh. Well, there are the statements from Fanfare that can be taken into consideration.
At the very least, it does allow Gunha to scale with Misaka until we get better feats from him.
As for this... Well... Basically, Base!Kanzaki (and those who scale to her) scale to Hel's feat of freezing 100 kilometers of ocean, however... Hel's only fight wasn't shown nor did we see the outcome other than the fact that everybody survived. Folks like Hyouka, Carrisa, MoV, and basically the upper tier folks who are all within a saint's level scale to Mjolnir, however...
9-B might be ok, IMO but we would need to look at scaling chains.
The one in Angel Fall was an accidental summon into a human vessel of all things. There is little reason to assume that it scales to the more proper summon into a more proper vessel.
I believe we just scale his aurora guard as anti-lightning technique to it, which is fine. The rules I mean is that we don't scale durability to lightning AP, unless specific conditions are met, because the lightning just flows through the body and doesn't deposit most of its energy in the target.
Leiviana comes from calcing the energy release of 50 tones of fuel exploding, which comes out to 8-A. We should probably post that calc properly.
As said, I don't think we have enough evidence to scale WWIII summon to Angel Fall summon. Kanzaki didn't intend to harm Gabriel, yeah. Which of course doesn't strictly mean that she necessarily could have. (7-A is also a kinda fitting rating, seeing how each of Gabriel's countless wings were said to be able to wipe out a city... the fight also mentions that human reaction time in index is apparently 0.18 seconds... might come in handy some time)
There is also partial negation like blocking Gungnir and breaking only two fingers. Partial negation just is all over the place. Personally I'm fine with 9-B Touma if we can get it for any reason other than partial negation. Like, if we calc the Arei feat than I'm pretty sure we can scale Touma to that over some corners involving Kuroko.
I think one can probably scale specific measurements for the feat and then use the same method to calc the tree breaking. If you don't wanna calc it, I can look into it.
Huotou's strength is supernaturally enhanced. Or specifically it has the natural limiters removed and can perform superhuman feats by sacrificing muscle fiber. So I can see Huotou scaling to Naru somewhat, but I don't think it scales to people outside that circle.
Judgement is made up of a great variety of people. I don't think one can just blanket scale all of them to the same stuff. (e.g. Uiharu should have no physical fighting capabilities... the girl hardly manages push ups)
I guess I could go either way on this.
The WW3 Gabriel was literally stated to be an incomplete summon, whose summon was based on the Angel Fall spell and Sasha was literally part of it just like the previous one, just not the vessel anymore:
And i believe you're wrong because we don't scale things based on "justified scaling", and like, it literally is weaker than Yuisen which is at the bottom of the scaling chain so i have no idea which saint class you're talking about as all saints scale way above Yuisen. Also, not sure how you can say Mjolnir is a "run of the mill" magician when it's best feat is nearly 100x Gabriel's own attacks... which was a charged attack by Mjolnir, btw.
Btw, Dragnoir, thank you for the help regarding this topic.
Yeah, the summon in WWIII was still incomplete, but it was into a vessel outside of a physical body, which for instance enabled her to regenerate. The fact that the vessel is a power limit is also very important. Acqua couldn't even contain the amount of power Gabriel has in WWIII. That Sasha's body could endure that much is unlikely.
Well, Gabriel gets the Mjölnir rating regardless, unless you wish to argue none of the saints scale either.
Nah, there isn't. All 8-B Touma feats can be explained as weird IB interactions or just not being as impressive as they sound at first. The
I don't watch the show, but I'm fairly sure that the problem with Homelander was that the statement regarding him never explicitely mentioned him tanking nukes. Much different to Accel who destroyed something very explicitly tanking nukes.
Nah to all of this. Accel and Kakine for mentioned reasons and Misaka 'cause she has no reason for a likely.
It's a definitely universe destroying spear, since it destroyed the universe, gathered the shards of that universe into the tip and that was what Touma punched. And either you're right and there was no damage from partial negation or you aren't and there was. In both cases it's weird as hell that there was less damage from partial negation there than from blocking a random Curtana explosion.
As you noted: She jumped really high using her power to kick someone. I.e. propel her body with her power to produce a stronger kick. Since we don't know how this particular kick happened, she could have done that again.
But what is the connecting thread here? Judgement does basic exercises not ninja-training or anything. Even if we for some reason accepted that she can kick that hard, why would other combat members be of similar strength?
Jasonsmith's calc assumes relatively random dimensions. That's why it is better to redo it. The result would probably be relatively close, but it's better for accuracy to calc it. Would also tell us for sure which end of the tiers we are at.
1/6th of destroying something that can tank a nuke (which we don't know the power of), as you said so yourself. We also don't have a good visual for it. 7-B tiering for Kakine and Accelerator is completely unjustifiable due to these elements, and once again, I want to state that we have no calcs that come close to 7-B levels (that isn't in the narutoforum and likely only scales to the Earth Blade). Also, if possible, can you post the statement where it explicitly states Accelerator destroyed 1/6th of Shiokishi's stronghold.
Which was done via reality warping/phase manipulation, which isn't applicable with AP due to its haxxy nature. Also, why is partial negation even being bought up? That is only a thing in where Touma faces attacks that continuously regenerate or has too much power to negate at one time. With gungnir, its universe destroying attack was negated near instantly, but the spear itself was pushed upwards by touma's punch and remained existing for a few moments before IB's effect took hold of it. It is more likely that partial negation wasn't even at play here, and Touma's broken fingers just came from hitting something fast and hard. Also, during the time in whee Othinus was trying to get Touma to "oof" himself, didn't she make a comment that he just needed to touch gungnir to break it.
True, but it is also entirely likely that she could do it with her own physical strength. Also, I never once stated or implied that Anti-Skill shouldn't get that scaling either. There weren't any statements that random anti-skill fodders died or were even knocked out, just knocked down, so it is entirely possible for them to scale, even if downscaling only.
AFAIK, different characters are assumed to not be the same strength, we are talking about the same character here and no difference in strength is ever stated so there is no base to say they aren't the same.
Why? Argue for it. Literally all you have said so far to "justify" your scaling also applies to AF Gabriel, so upgrade him.
Thor and Mjolnir literally are the top fighters of Gremlin and can fight at Saint tier, with the Throwing Hammer being Mjolnir's charged attack that literally nothing most characters in the verse have done even compares to, what about it is basic?
You know we only scale Yuisen to H6C because it can cut archangels (WW3 Gabriel), right? No one else ever did, or was stated to be able to, damage Gabriel, Carissa with the shards and Versailles did literally no damage to it.
vsbattles.fandom.com
So far, yeah that seems to be the case.
1/6th of a stronghold that withstands a nuclear strike. Accelerators attack blatantly did more to the thing than a nuke would, as a nuke wouldn't destroy the thing. That's kinda the point of a nuclear shelter.
It's a tunnel style building. Likely the same overall structure as the summer resort nuclear shelter.
One third of the front half is 1/6th.
Whether partial negation was at play isn't really important to the point that partial negation is weird and inconsistent. Sorry, but you can't convince me that the universe-smashing spear that has a universe as tip isn't at least universe level in AP (By that logic Othinus shouldn't be Tier 1, but just have lol hax. We don't tier like that). And it's not the only case. As brought up Aiwass attacks, which are weaker than Gungnir but stronger than Curtana in power, are also partially negated but seemingly launch Touma less than Curtana.
The mere fact that she is casually obliterating them shows well that she is way stronger. And the fact that Anti-Skill are also essentially normal people and can almost certainly not simply break through walls like she does.
We have more concrete evidence for what the power comparison between them is from their on-screen fights... and all except Kanzaki are somewhat nerfed by this point (Carissa doesn't have Curtana Original, Knight Leader doesn't get Original's blessing and I'm fairly sure Acqua lost much of his special status after WWIII).
No, you're just wrong about our standards on that.
Some amount of Telesma. I really doubt more than what Acqua can take. By all showings WWIII Gabriel being stronger simply makes the most sense, as he is vastly higher in the scaling chain.
One was done by Touma's father by pure accident putting Gabriel into a human, the other was done by using the Star of Bethlehem as magical device to anchor Gabriels existence, give him a non-human vessel and used the Index Librorum Prohibitorum to properly construct the spell.
I really doubt that angel-tier people (like Kazakiri) are below Mjölnir. Gabriel, with its questionable summoning conditions might be more debatable. I also don't think Mjölnir "charges" (which goes only 10 seconds anyway), but it's more that the spell requires her flying a full circle to use.
I know, but I don't see your point. Yuisen is a technic that can in principle harm Gabriel. Doesn't mean that Kanzaki can't still be on the bottom of a scaling chain that has Gabriel at the top. Everyone with Yuisen scaling is comparable, but not equal in power.
For anything more than is in the thread right now please make a new thread... Also I really wish we could finish one thread first before something new is done. I know it's mostly me, but I just can't debate in 20 ToAru threads at once. Neither do I have the time nor the attention span, besides staff stuff.
Again, as many times as I need to say it, we don't know the power of the nukes that it can withstand nor the nukes that Kamachi had in mind when he wrote that section. And we can only guess the structure through an entirely different building, which may or may not be the same.
Considered. Although, for the fall, it could be Kamachi being Kamachi and downplaying his characters are per usual. Y'know, with his usual statements of supersonic (or so speeds) being considered amazing. But won't really talk about this topic.
Agree-to-disgree on this subject. Don't know what else to say other than the fact that the fact we didn't have a visual indicator that Mimi used the power and the fact that we saw that when she uses her esper power to do "superhuman" stuff, it sends her upwards as seen by her and her sister's usage of the power.
Heh. Well, this thread is about to warp up, more or less. We just need to know what to do the saint/angel scaling and figure out what AP value to scale them, getting my planned calcs approved so I can add 'em to my OP (to maybe make a flat-out 9-A Upgrade or strengthen At Least 9-B, 9-A upgrade). And after that we can get people to come here and vote.
Because characters in OP are demonstrated to grow after taking a beating time and time again and scaling pre Marineford Croco to Post MF would cause scaling inconsistencies, while scaling one Gabriel to the other doesn't cause any problems at all.
Bruh, it literally can be argued that he became weaker as he was summoned with the remaining Telesma inside of Sasha.
Bruh, the amount she had during Angel Fall was literally stated to be Archangel-class, isn't your whole deal with Gabriel scaling to Mjolnir that it is an angel? Therefore something directly stated to be Archangel-class is above it too. And she had 100% of that power, Acqua only took 50% so yeah it would be below Sasha.
Angel Fall only happened because even before Touya did something the elements were already messed iirc, and then i have no idea how you can compare the quality of something done perfectly and by accident to someone actively trying to do something, there isn't a way to compare them like your analogy because the skill of the first wasn't even taken into account. And again, Fiamma used the remaining Telesma inside of Sasha to summon Gabriel.
You and me know what we doubt has no value here. So let me ask, why is she above Mjolnir?
It kinda literally was even increasing it's speed with a quadratic function or whatever, if that's not charging a big attack i don't know what is.
IMO, everyone should be downgraded (if they are H6C) or upgraded (if they are 7A) to 6C via Gabriel's feat and that's it.
In case you forgot what you said before: "And the only version of Gabriel that is clearly weaker than Yuisen is Angel Fall Gabriel."
Quoting my post that started this discussion:
After that, me and DT started to discuss if the profiles should be kept as they are (with none to minimal changes) or if a major revision to all saint class characters should happen.
There are enough 9-B feats and 9-A feats for 9-C and 9-B characters to be solidly upgraded to At Least 9-B, Likely 9-A. Have also been thinking of including the 10-A characters due to them having feats of keeping up with the 9-C folks, but will resolve that issue in a future CRT.
You can start with the low tier first as they're easy to handle
Same as everybody else in the Lower Physical Tier - At Least 9-B, Likely 9-A. Her Meltdowner will get a slight upgrade - At Least 8-B, Likely 8-A+, due to it being vastly superior to her physical stats but that is about it.
Huh, so not changing much
