1/6th of destroying something that can tank a nuke (which we don't know the power of), as you said so yourself. We also don't have a good visual for it. 7-B tiering for Kakine and Accelerator is completely unjustifiable due to these elements, and once again, I want to state that we have no calcs that come close to 7-B levels (that isn't in the narutoforum and likely only scales to the Earth Blade). Also, if possible, can you post the statement where it explicitly states Accelerator destroyed 1/6th of Shiokishi's stronghold.
1/6th of a stronghold that
withstands a nuclear strike. Accelerators attack blatantly did more to the thing than a nuke would, as a nuke wouldn't destroy the thing. That's kinda the point of a nuclear shelter.
Accels attack scales above the theoretical nuke, not below it. And we really don't need visuals. We know the attack happened. We have enough statements on the strength of the shelter. And I don't see it being an outlier.
As for the 1/6th, that needs context.
As one of the official members of the board of directors, Shiokishi was well-known for being well-protected. That was apparent from the fact that he covered himself in a powered suit almost 24 hours a day. Of course, his stronghold was also quite robust. Mixed in with other buildings in District 2, the tunnel style building was 200m in diameter and was said to be able to withstand even tactical weapons.
It's a tunnel style building. Likely the same overall structure as
the summer resort nuclear shelter.
So with the structure in mind
The front half of the tunnel had one third of it smashed apart, and debris flew through the air.
What Accelerator had done was very simple. He picked up a parked car close to him with one hand, and then threw it hard at the target. There was nothing special about the laws of physics involved, and the items used weren’t any kind of special materials. But, with just ‘controlling all vectors’ added into the mix, a simple throw could bring the results of shattering the shelter.
One third of the front half is 1/6th.
Not that it matters cause, again, the shelter withstands nukes, but did not withstand the strike.
Which was done via reality warping/phase manipulation, which isn't applicable with AP due to its haxxy nature. Also, why is partial negation even being bought up? That is only a thing in where Touma faces attacks that continuously regenerate or has too much power to negate at one time. With gungnir, its universe destroying attack was negated near instantly, but the spear itself was pushed upwards by touma's punch and remained existing for a few moments before IB's effect took hold of it. It is more likely that partial negation wasn't even at play here, and Touma's broken fingers just came from hitting something fast and hard. Also, during the time in whee Othinus was trying to get Touma to "oof" himself, didn't she make a comment that he just needed to touch gungnir to break it.
Whether partial negation was at play isn't really important to the point that partial negation is weird and inconsistent. Sorry, but you can't convince me that the universe-smashing spear that has a universe as tip isn't at least universe level in AP (By that logic Othinus shouldn't be Tier 1, but just have lol hax. We don't tier like that). And it's not the only case. As brought up Aiwass attacks, which are weaker than Gungnir but stronger than Curtana in power, are also partially negated but seemingly launch Touma less than Curtana.
There just seems to be no correlation between power of the attack and damage Touma gets form partial negation.
And the whole feat is weird as well. He is launched to a height without getting hurt, but a drop from the same height is immediately said to seriously hurt him (at least). Durability wise those two things should be the same (at least by the way it's calculated)... unless the weird partial negation mechanics or some other factor affect the situation.
It just makes more sense to credit this to a weird interaction with Imagine Breaker interacting with the attack, than as Touma's pure durability.
True, but it is also entirely likely that she could do it with her own physical strength. Also, I never once stated or implied that Anti-Skill shouldn't get that scaling either. There weren't any statements that random anti-skill fodders died or were even knocked out, just knocked down, so it is entirely possible for them to scale, even if downscaling only.
As for your comment for why other combat judgment members should scale to Yami at all - there is no mention at all in the Accel manga that Yami is physically exceptional - although, judging by the comments from Anti-Skill, there is some physical superiority from normal humans like themselves to Espers like the twins - there is no statement that says Yami is better than other judgment members - so there is a fifty-fifty chance, and it is pretty clear on where I am siding.
The mere fact that she is casually obliterating them shows well that she is way stronger. And the fact that Anti-Skill are also essentially normal people and can almost certainly not simply break through walls like she does.
And you need to prove the positive. Lack of being explicitly exceptional (although the Anti Skill peeps are crediting her to have martial arts or something) is no proof of not being exceptional.
Just as a lack of proof of using the power is no proof of not using the power.
Saint-Scaling stuff is on Dragnoir... or when I come up with something... Although, didn't Kanzaki fend off Carrisa (who is High 6-C, and fought WW3 Gab), Aquca (7-A), and Knight Leader (7-A) for an undisclosed amount of time in NT10? We didn't see it, but it is much more valid than Hel's feat in the sense that we know Kanzaki did something - even if she was losing at the end, due to it being a 3v1, it is remarkable that she could hold off all three of them for even a minute and implies some level of same level-ness between them.
We have more concrete evidence for what the power comparison between them is from their on-screen fights... and all except Kanzaki are somewhat nerfed by this point (Carissa doesn't have Curtana Original, Knight Leader doesn't get Original's blessing and I'm fairly sure Acqua lost much of his special status after WWIII).
AFAIK, different characters are assumed to not be the same strength, we are talking about the same character here and no difference in strength is ever stated so there is no base to say they aren't the same.
No, you're just wrong about our standards on that.
For example why has Crocodile (One Piece) two keys? He was in prison the entire time between them and not shown to have trained or anything. However, he scales to much higher in his later showings and has no evidence to not have grown stronger. So we assume his showings are disconnected.
Same with Gabriel. We have no statements that he is the same strength. One can argue that he couldn't have become weaker, since the circumstances are, if anything, more favourable for him now. But we have no evidence that he couldn't be stronger.
Also, Sasha had Telesma inside her as well, indeed, Fiamma used that Telesma to summon the Gabriel from WW3:
"You are insane! Sasha is only able to perform such acts because of the Telesma remaining in her body from the events of Angel Fall!"
Some amount of Telesma. I really doubt more than what Acqua can take. By all showings WWIII Gabriel being stronger simply makes the most sense, as he is vastly higher in the scaling chain.
There is no difference at all from them, both are imperfect manifestations done using Sasha as a base and the only difference is the regen as you pointed, which has nothing to do with AP.
One was done by Touma's father by pure accident putting Gabriel into a human, the other was done by using the Star of Bethlehem as magical device to anchor Gabriels existence, give him a non-human vessel and used the Index Librorum Prohibitorum to properly construct the spell.
It's like saying that canned tomato soup and one made by a 3 star chef are the same because both use tomatoes.
Why? Argue for it. Literally all you have said so far to "justify" your scaling also applies to AF Gabriel, so upgrade him.
But yeah, i am all in for none of the saints scaling to it if the base of the scaling (Gabriel) has no reason to scale to it in the first place.
Thor and Mjolnir literally are the top fighters of Gremlin and can fight at Saint tier, with the Throwing Hammer being Mjolnir's charged attack that literally nothing most characters in the verse have done even compares to, what about it is basic?
I really doubt that angel-tier people (like Kazakiri) are below Mjölnir. Gabriel, with its questionable summoning conditions might be more debatable. I also don't think Mjölnir "charges" (which goes only 10 seconds anyway), but it's more that the spell requires her flying a full circle to use.
But sure. We can downgrade saints back to whatever rating they had before Mjölnir scaling. I can see that being applicable if one wants to be critical.
You know we only scale Yuisen to H6C because it can cut archangels (WW3 Gabriel), right? No one else ever did, or was stated to be able to, damage Gabriel, Carissa with the shards and Versailles did literally no damage to it.
Acqua, KL and Carissa with Curtana have no feats or statements to scale them to Gabriel other than dealing with Yuisen.
Gabriel may be the basis of the scaling, but all saints get that tier because of Kanzaki and Yuisen.
I know, but I don't see your point. Yuisen is a technic that can in principle harm Gabriel. Doesn't mean that Kanzaki can't still be on the bottom of a scaling chain that has Gabriel at the top. Everyone with Yuisen scaling is comparable, but not equal in power.
Welp, while I won't do it right now, I'll likely put in the TLDR section of my CRT saying "Downgrading Kakine (OT) and Accelerator (Pre-Headshot & Post-Headshot) to At Least 8-A - although, thanks to his plasma ball and 1/6th stronghold statement, Accelerator may possibly get Possibly 7-C but Kakine doesn't get it... Also, Terra of the Left's 7-B tiering being removed as well due to it being done via attack potency/durability-ignoring hax."
And will add what we decided to do with Saint Tier folks after enough talking... and possibly we can discuss tiering for magicians like Birdway and Aleister.
For anything more than is in the thread right now please make a new thread... Also I really wish we could finish one thread first before something new is done. I know it's mostly me, but I just can't debate in 20 ToAru threads at once. Neither do I have the time nor the attention span, besides staff stuff.
vsbattles.fandom.com
