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Major Mortal Kombat Revision, Part I

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Guys, I see Liu Kang was edited as just High 8-C (High Tier)

Wasn't he a Mid Tier ? (His alive version, not God)

In the netherrealm timeline, he only defeated Shao Kahn once, and going by MK11, Raiden killed him fairly easy with a single attack

He lost to Cassie as Revenant, lost to Shao Kahn in Aftermath, and lost to Raiden even when 2X his strength, I think he should be Mid Tier alongside Sub Zero and Scorpion
 
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I’m fine with human Liu being High 8-C (since he dominated Scorpion and Quan Chi before clapping Shao and had regularly fought on par with him)

I do agree Revenant Liu should be Likely tho
 
He dominated Scorpion and Quan Chi, but both are 9-A/High 8-C not full High 8-C, the only true feat for him is against Shao Kahn, despite him losing in MK11 with apparently no problem for Kahn

Raiden literally one shot him in MK11 flashback and defeated Revenant Liu Kang who had the powers of his alive self
 
Yeah you might be right about him being Mid tier.
Dante_Demon_Killah said:
He dominated Scorpion and Quan Chi, but both are 9-A/High 8-C not full High 8-C, the only true feat for him is against Shao Kahn, despite him losing in MK11 with apparently no problem for Kahn

Raiden literally one shot him in MK11 flashback and defeated Revenant Liu Kang who had the powers of his alive self
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The problem here is that MK11 retconned Raiden oneshotting him. Instead, they just fight each other rather than Raiden instantly killing Liu Kang with his powers. When MK9 Liu Kang was electrocuted in MK11's cutscenes, he was simply sent flying before he retaliated which is replayed in several other timelines. Those timelines also show him repeatedly tanking Raiden's lightning which used to kill him before in MK9.
 
As for Shao, I'd say they're on equal footing. Both can harm each other to the point where they are badly beaten and near death and Liu Kang has to dodge Shao's hammer strikes during MK11 (after repeatedly kicking him which staggered Shao), which implies that one hit from his hammer is enough to harm him.
 
Revenant Liu Kang was buffed when he fought Raiden for the last time and he's the only one who was able to fight with Raiden equally (both MKX and MK11)

In MKX, he badly hurt Raiden before Liu was defeated, and Shinnok just needed to crush the injured Raiden with a bone hand to cripple him. In MK11, he took his past self's soul and became strong enough to surprise Raiden when he sent him flying with one of his signature kicks.
 
Dante_Demon_Killah said:
He dominated Scorpion and Quan Chi, but both are 9-A/High 8-C not full High 8-C, the only true feat for him is against Shao Kahn, despite him losing in MK11 with apparently no problem for Kahn
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It’s still a character solidly overwhelming two mid tiers and nearly killing a top tier when bloodlusted

Shao did best him in MK11 but we saw Liu was able to do damage to the chad of Outworld and his defeat simply means Shao is relative to him

We also see him fight Raiden fairly well in the flashback to MK9’s events (before his death in fairness)

Dante_Demon_Killah said:
Raiden literally one shot him in MK11 flashback and defeated Revenant Liu Kang who had the powers of his alive self
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He didn’t, if memory serves he used Shinnok’s Amulet for that and we see the fight between Raiden and Liu during MK9’s events

Revenant Liu might be weaker tho since that’s weird (he’s definitely still able to harm Raiden tho as Ecstasy mentioned)
 
Hellbeast said:
It’s still a character solidly overwhelming two mid tiers and nearly killing a top tier when bloodlusted

Shao did best him in MK11 but we saw Liu was able to do damage to the chad of Outworld and his defeat simply means Shao is relative to him

We also see him fight Raiden fairly well in the flashback to MK9’s events (before his death in fairness)


He didn’t, if memory serves he used Shinnok’s Amulet for that and we see the fight between Raiden and Liu during MK9’s events

Revenant Liu might be weaker tho since that’s weird (he’s definitely still able to harm Raiden tho as Ecstasy mentioned)
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Raiden definitely needed the power of the amulet to one-shot Liu Kang.

Speaking of flashbacks, doesn't that mean that Blaze was killed in Armageddon and the only survivors were Liu Kang, Raiden and Shao Kahn (At least before Raiden puts Liu Kang out of his misery at the cost of being mortally wounded enough to be killed by Shao Kahn).
 
KLOL506 said:
Raiden definitely needed the power of the amulet to one-shot Liu
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I’d also note we see the amulet drop top tiers like Raiden and Fujin pretty easily
KLOL506 said:
Speaking of flashbacks, doesn't that mean that Blaze was killed in Armageddon and the only survivors were Liu Kang, Raiden and Shao Kahn (At least before Raiden puts Liu Kang out of his misery at the cost of being mortally wounded enough to be killed by Shao Kahn).
Click to expand...
It’s possible that was a different Armageddon (since we know kronika influenced time before the reboots) but my headcanon is Blaze killed him and shang but since Liu is undead he just got back up and went for Raiden before Raiden tried to confront Shao (maybe shao set it up idk)
 
So solid High 8-C for alive Liu Kang, 9-A/High 8-C for Revenant ?

I don't quite agree on that

And guys, Raiden didn't had the amulet during his fight against Liu Kang in MK9

And he kills him with a single attack in cutscene, they had a battle before but Raiden killing him that easily and even without actually wanting to do shows how there is a clear difference between them in power, and that's the catch, who has the High 8-C feat ? Raiden, making someone solid (No Possibly or Likely) High 8-C means them having the same power level, but Liu Kang isn't as powerful as him and the series is clear on that, he always died to Raiden and was defeated even when having 2X his power, Likely High 8-C should be our choice, aka Mid Tier

Which brings me to the next stuff, we know Invasion Shao Kahn is stronger thanks to Soul Hax right ? It was THAT version who overpowered Raiden, regular Shao Kahn has what scaling to the High Tiers ? Fighting Liu Kang should be just Mid Tier, and yes we have him losing to Kitana, Geras is Mid Tier, White Revenant Kitana might be the only one, but I see our revisions didn't reached her yet, so I dunno what is her Tier, I know the current description is wank, since she didn't defeated Fire God Liu Kang by herself

If that's all, Regular Kahn should be 9-A to High 8-C, just like Liu Kang, and Invasion Shao Kahn should be solid High 8-C

If you guys want, I can just stop here and bring this as CRT in the future, we can end the Overall Revisions first
 
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Question. If fire god lui kang is literally the combine power of two high 8-C+, shouldnt that make him outright city block level?
 
Dante_Demon_Killah said:
e
Click to expand...
I'm fine with both being Mid tiers, but here's the problem about your reasoning.

And he kills him with a single attack in cutscene, they had a battle before but Raiden killing him that easily and even without actually wanting to do shows how there is a clear difference between them in power, and that's the catch, who has the High 8-C feat ? Raiden, making someone solid (No Possibly or Likely) High 8-C means them having the same power level, but Liu Kang isn't as powerful as him and the series is clear on that, he always died to Raiden and was defeated even when having 2X his power, Likely High 8-C should be our choice, aka Mid Tier
Click to expand...

First of all, Liu Kang's immediate death at the hands of Raiden was retconned. When we are shown a collection of Raiden's memories of past timelines, starting with the past of the timeline that they're currently in, Raiden doesn't kill Liu with one attack and he was forced to block his punch. That alone should tell us that Liu could've done some damage to Raiden if he didn't block in time. Not to mention that the scene cleanly transitions into another timeline where Liu Kang gets sent flying after that, and the repetition of the same events in multiple timelines should tell us that what happened each of those timelines was the same thing that happened in MK9.

Being defeated by someone doesn't automatically make you lower than them, especially in this context. If you are able to harm them, or are implied to be able to harm them (like Liu forcing Raiden to block him and Raiden actually putting effort into beating him up) then they should scale to each other.

Which brings me to the next stuff, we know Invasion Shao Kahn is stronger thanks to Soul Hax right ? It was THAT version who overpowered Raiden, regular Shao Kahn has what scaling to the High Tiers ? Fighting Liu Kang should be just Mid Tier, and yes we have him losing to Kitana, Geras is Mid Tier, White Revenant Kitana might be the only one, but I see our revisions didn't reached her yet, so I dunno what is her Tier, I know the current description is wank, since she didn't defeated Fire God Liu Kang by herself
Click to expand...

The so-called Invasion Shao Kahn is probably something that he has done after each realm that he conquers. Shao has already conquered multiple realms at this point, and it's only natural for Shao to **** with the inhabitant's souls after conquering them. For example, after conquering Edenia, he tore out 10,000 souls of Edenians before using it to create Ermac (according to the events of MK9's story, his creation might've been done over time) So he has very likely been eating souls even before he came to Earthrealm.

Shao Kahn in Aftermath defeated and temporarily killed an armored Geras (the same Geras that fought Raiden and was strengthened by Kronika beforehand) and the White Revenants are clearly a threat to God Liu before he tapped into the Jinsei. Each of them were all able to hurt him with their individual attacks. Even after he "defeated" them all in a cutscene, they were still able to get back up and fight him again (with the exception of Jade)

About Kitana, Shao was cut in the eyes with a piercing weapon. Eyes are a common weakpoint in martial arts and MK is no stranger to having this kind of stuff in fighting. Even though people think that MK defies logic with their ridiculous fatalities and whatnot, it's still has some level of realism. For example, Scorpion in a cutscene, managed to stun Liu Kang with a chop to the neck. A hit like that would somewhat ignore durability IRL since the skin is weaker in that part as it
is very close to a vital organ.
 
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Ecstasy_Amphetamine said:
Shao Kahn in Aftermath defeated and temporarily killed an armored Geras (the same Geras that fought Raiden and was strengthened by Kronika beforehand) and the White Revenants are clearly a threat to God Liu before he tapped into the Jinsei. Each of them were all able to hurt him with their individual attacks. Even after he "defeated" them all in a cutscene, they were still able to get back up and fight him again (with the exception of Jade)
Click to expand...
So should Fire God Liu Kang have a "Higher after tapping into the Jinsei" rating then?
 
I would even say "far higher" since said boost not only made him stomp the Revenants, but also defeated Cetrion and Kronika, it was a big jump in power

I agree with Ecstasy, very well explained, but in the end we agreed on Mid Tier for them, I guess ? If that's the case, I have nothing else to add, we should just edit Kahn's and Liu Kang's first keys to Mid Tier, I guess they scale to Hypersonic+ speed since Liu Kang defeated Scorpion who scales to Sub Zero, with of course the likely MHS+ Combat and Reaction

Even with this, Fire God Liu Kang would still have a Likely 8-B, since:

Base Liu Kang is At least 9-A, Likely High 8-C+

Raiden is High 8-C+

Fire God Liu Kang is At least (High 8-C + 9-A), likely (High 8-C + High 8-C)

Which would be At least High 8-C, likely 8-B
 
By the way, I meant to say that both Revenant and alive Liu are both mid tiers. Not Shao Kahn, because that guy has been eating souls before the events of MK9. That guy didn't need a boost to fight the White Revenants.
 
I forgot that Liu's feat is almost near 8-B territory. A slight buff should bring him to that tier already, so I'm fine with 8-B god tiers. They still need the far higher rating since those feats are not depictions of the Elder Gods true power.
 
So, do we unanimously agree with Mid tier Liu Kang? (base key only) And baseline 8-B god tiers?

Speaking of god tiers, they should have "at least" added to their ratings since that's not their true power, which is currently unknown
 
I definitely am fine with 8-B god tiers but very against mid tier Liu Kang

The man has, what three anti feats and is regularly shown as a top tier with examples like:

  1. dominating two mid tiers (Scorpion and Quan Chi)
  2. Nearly killing Shao Kahn
  3. Battling Raiden before his death
  4. Along with Kung Lao is the only Revenant to have harmed Raiden (and Liu did the most)
  5. Was able to stagger Shao Kahn with a sneak attack
  6. Could fight Raiden under the influence of Shinnok’s Amulet
  7. Battled Shao again before being defeated
  8. His power being merged with his Revenant self and Raiden let him become a God Tier
If we are making any Liu a mid tier at least limit it to Liu Kang for his bullshit treatment against Jax and Cassie Cage
 
That would still make him weaker though.

His revenant has enough notable differences from his base key to have a separate key unlike the other revenants who are just undead forms of themselves.

Here's my suggestion

Base Liu Kang: High 8-C (same reasonings in his current page)
Revenant Liu Kang: At least 9-A (Weakened without Shinnok as his power source, but still superior to the average kombatant. Defeated Jacqui Briggs and crumbled the basement area of the Netherrealm castle), likely High 8-C (His revenant is the only one who can fight on par with Raiden, with or without buffs)
 
Ecstasy_Amphetamine said:
Here's my suggestion

Base Liu Kang: High 8-C (same reasonings in his current page)
Revenant Liu Kang: At least 9-A (Weakened without Shinnok as his power source, but still superior to the average kombatant. Defeated Jacqui Briggs and crumbled the basement area of the Netherrealm castle), likely High 8-C (His revenant is the only one who can fight on par with Raiden, with or without buffs)
Click to expand...
Good idea but I’d word it as
At least 9-A (Defeated Jacqui Briggs and shattered a notable portion of his fortress), likely High 8-C (was able to harm Raiden and could combat his past self in the Wu-Shi Academy. Later absorbed his past self’s strength and battled but lost to Raiden)

The power thing should likely be noted in the Notes section
Ecstasy_Amphetamine said:
What about Mid tier Kung Lao btw?
Click to expand...
My suggestion: At least 9-A, likely High 8-C (Battled Scorpion during the first tournament and during the second was able to beat the combined night of Shang Tsung and Quan Chi. Fought on par with Kano during the time merger and sliced through Geras with his hat)
Ecstasy_Amphetamine said:
I made him Mid tier already, but I forgot that I actually put him with the low tiers.
Click to expand...
Lmao my bad
 
Ecstasy_Amphetamine said:
The weakened thing with Liu is important to let other readers know why he's 9-A
Click to expand...
I know. I’m suggesting to leave it at the bottom as a notation rather then in the AP section

Something like:
Note: Liu Kang’s Revenant form has a separate key because of his showings and also the fact that he draws power from Shinnok like Quan Chi
Ecstasy_Amphetamine said:
Seems alright with Kung Lao
Click to expand...
Cheers
(Is this the part I campaign for Mod tier Kotal?/s)
 
Ecstasy_Amphetamine said:
Lol go ahead

I haven't touched our favorite wheelchair mascot yet
Click to expand...
Aight time to be based

MK11 has him fight Shao no less then Four times
  1. Kahn is able to cut through Shao’s skin and Armour with his blade but is soon overwhelmed
  2. Kotal Kahn beats Shao and Shao is forced to withdraw
  3. Shao battles a Kotal who was just freed and despite being unarmed Kotal does well, smashing him into the audience and is able to hurt him by biting and wrestled with him through the fight
  4. Shao Marc’s Kotal. While this seems like an anti feat, Kotal wasn’t fresh here since:
  • He was crippled in his previous battle
  • Kotal was jumped by sheeva while he was recovering and was beaten down
  • He was ambushed at the rear of the fleet
And even with that Kotal was able to trade blows with Shao and survive at least 3 strikes.
Even ignoring the Shao scaling, Rain references Kotal being the Mayan War God Buluc (from the Komics) which means his shipbusting feat is canon

No calc for this but it’s likely right up there In power and in that same MKX chapter as his fight within rain we see him match a blast from Shinnok’s Amulet, turning his men nearby to Ash (and the weapon is confirmed to turn legions to ash)

We then see Sub-Zero confront Kotal which could imply they fought evenly

So what we’re looking at is the following
At least 9-A (Overpowered Kano and later defeated Rain and Mileena in battle, fought but lost against Kung Jin), likely High 8-C (as a young man destroyed a Spanish Galleon with his sun beams, matched a blast from Shinnok’s Amulet [with difficulty] and was able to fight Shao Kahn)
 
Interesting, but I'd like to see what other think about this. Just remember that King already agreed that we shouldn't scale Shao to Kotal, as he doesn't do significant damage to that guy. Not to mention that Shao easily breaks out of Kotal's grasp in their second fight, and Aftermath has him overpower his weapons which are supposed to do well against Shao's unwieldy hammer. So he's clearly superior to him.

He's definitely one of the stronger characters though
 
Ecstasy_Amphetamine said:
Interesting, but I'd like to see what other think about this. Just remember that King already agreed that we shouldn't scale Shao to Kotal, as he doesn't do significant damage to that guy. Not to mention that Shao easily breaks out of Kotal's grasp in their second fight, and Aftermath has him overpower his weapons which are supposed to do well against Shao's unwieldy hammer. So he's clearly superior to him.
Click to expand...
He’s clearly weaker but there’s no way he’s overwhelmingly less powerful then Shao

And as I mentioned Aftermath doesn’t have a fresh Kotal compared to a Shao who just got charged up by the Soul Chamber
 
To summarize the recent discussions:

  • Change Liu Kang's current tier. Either he remains as a top tier but his revenant is slightly below him as a mid tier or both of them become mid tiers
  • Mid tier Kung Lao (both alive and revenant)
  • Hellbeast thinks that Kotal Kahn should be a mid tier
 
If we take Kotal's loss to Jade as him not going all out, I can see him at Mid Tier yes

But MK11 Kotal, MKX kinda lost to Kun Jing

I still believe Liu Kang should be Mid Tier but I can live with only his revenant being at that level

Still, Fire God Liu Kang is 8-B (Raiden + Liu Kang + Revenant Liu Kang), I forgot to add both Liu Kangs into the equation which means he doesn't need Jinsei or other upgrades to be at that level

Kung Lao at Mid Tier ? He lost to Scorpion on MK9 quite casually and his fight against him in MK11 is optional, with Liu Kang at his side he should be the "canon" choice. Defeating the Sorcerers doesn't mean much if any of them have "likely High 8-C" scaling, if they have then Kung Lao is easily Mid Tier
 
Dante_Demon_Killah said:
If we take Kotal's loss to Jade as him not going all out, I can see him at Mid Tier yes

But MK11 Kotal, MKX kinda lost to Kun Jing

I still believe Liu Kang should be Mid Tier but I can live with only his revenant being at that level

Still, Fire God Liu Kang is 8-B (Raiden + Liu Kang + Revenant Liu Kang), I forgot to add both Liu Kangs into the equation which means he doesn't need Jinsei or other upgrades to be at that level

Kung Lao at Mid Tier ? He lost to Scorpion on MK9 quite casually and his fight against him in MK11 is optional, with Liu Kang at his side he should be the "canon" choice. Defeating the Sorcerers doesn't mean much if any of them have "likely High 8-C" scaling, if they have then Kung Lao is easily Mid Tier
Click to expand...
Maybe Kotal can still be a low tier, but a very strong one at that? Just like Ermac who oneshotted the Kombat Kids and was hardly affected by Jacqui's gauntlets

There has to be a compromise on what Liu Kang's tier should really be

Okay with 8-B God Liu, but I think he's At least 8-B since that's hardly his actual power level. However, it's only his god form that's very close to 8-B, not Raiden and the Liu Kangs. So maybe God Liu is "At least 8-B, likely higher" instead of "At least High 8-C, likely higher" which belongs to Raiden and co. (without the higher part)

I'd argue that there's no such thing as canon in QTE and other related events, but if we don't consider any of them canon, then we're left with a void in events where nothing happened in that part and the opponent is defeated by no one (that's some King Crimson shit tbh)
 
Ecstasy_Amphetamine said:
To summarize the recent discussions:

  • Change Liu Kang's current tier. Either he remains as a top tier but his revenant is slightly below him as a mid tier or both of them become mid tiers
  • Mid tier Kung Lao (both alive and revenant)
  • Hellbeast thinks that Kotal Kahn should be a mid tier
Click to expand...
Bump

These three kombatants are important characters in terms of scaling. My thoughts on this three points:

  • I'm alright with changing Liu Kang's tier, but only his revenant becomes a mid tier. Should be that way, because Revenant Liu Kang relies on a power source to be strong and seems to be weakened without it. When his revenant lost to Jax, Shinnok was sealed during that time. With Shinnok's presence however, he managed to put up a fight against Raiden and also hurt him in MKX. Thing is, Cassie beat Revenant Liu when Shinnok was chilling in the background, so it makes no sense as to why Cassie beat his revenant when Shinnok was present as a power source (he states this in MK11 after the castle was destroyed). Because of these showings, as well as his reliance on a power source, Revenant Liu Kang should be mid tier.
  • Neutral on this one. Kung Lao has some good feats when he was still alive, but none of them are top tiers. Shang is a low tier and Quan Chi didn't rely on Shinnok as a power source yet since he was trapped in the Netherrealm. Goro and Kintaro are currently portrayed as jobbers.
  • Neutral on this one, but I'm leaning on agreeing with this. Outside of the no longer canon comics, Kotal Kahn has some good feats and victories that get ignored in the story. He trashes people on his tier in full cutscene glory while losing in gameplay decided matches. He manages to block Shao Kahn's hammer as well when they meet again in Aftermath (probably learned his lesson to not wield a bigger weapon against someone who's better with it) but gets killed off screen.
 
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