Major Mortal Kombat Revision, Part I

[Hellbeast]

I don't really see Noob at Mid Tier, he lost to Jax or Jacqui (Which is a big meh), and has no victories against Mid Tiers, he should be just 9-A

He still is empowered from MK9 and he has more fights against mid tiers then low tiers so Him being mid makes sense imo

His Mythologies key should be Mid Tier I guess, we can't say everything from the game is canon, but he did had a fight with Fujin with apparently no winner/he ran away/he won like he said, which fits the description of said Tier for me

I feel weird accepting the mid tier thing there ngl

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Despite his fights against Fujin in the NRS timeline, should we put him with the low tiers instead? But we could add "possibly higher" since he actually has feats and statements going up against Fujin, but they are not consistent enough to be added to his profile, yet they aren't considered as outliers.

What do you both think about this?

 

[Hellbeast]

I can see that

 

[SamanPatou]

I just finished MK11 story, including Aftermath (I only have to see the tower endings yet) so I'm ready to help with whatever is being and needs to be discussed.

Also this whole story was bad.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

It seems that we're discussing about Noob's tier

There's a difference between DDK and Hellbeast's interpretations on what Kotal's tiers should be. After looking through MKX, I remember him taking a hit from the amulet but being injured rather than outright disintegrated by it. Although I'm not sure if the power level depends on its wielder, which was Mileena in this case.

You can join in on this one

 

[SamanPatou]

Kotal should be a solid mid tier, he can compete with the Kombat Kids and a bucnh of other characters, on top of having defeated Shao Kan, Mileena and Goro (although he also lost to the former).

I'd take what the amulet does with a grain of salt, as it's a little inconsistent and might actually depend on the user.

I'm not sure about Noob, he just loses repeteadly but should still be comparable to his alive self.

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

It seems like Mid tier Kotal and Low tier Noob is the decision

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Kotal should be a solid mid tier, he can compete with the Kombat Kids and a bucnh of other characters, on top of having defeated Shao Kan, Mileena and Goro (although he also lost to the former).

I'd take what the amulet does with a grain of salt, as it's a little inconsistent and might actually depend on the user.

I'm not sure about Noob, he just loses repeteadly but should still be comparable to his alive self.

We don't scale Kotal to Shao, the latter is clearly superior to him and Kotal had to rely on dirty tricks to get the upper hand on him (biting, throwing sand) and he still gets beaten by him in Aftermath. Not to mention the score between him and Shao is 1-3

What inconsistency? Please explain this, I've heard people saying that it depends on the user but I haven't seen some reasoning for that yet.

Okay on Noob.

 

[SamanPatou]

We don't scale Kotal to Shao, the latter is clearly superior to him and Kotal had to rely on dirty tricks to get the upper hand on him (biting, throwing sand) and he still gets beaten by him in Aftermath. Not to mention the score between him and Shao is 1-3

He still gets a clear-cut victory in 1v1, which means they are at the very least comparable. And even during their second clash at the arena, Kotal could still hold his own. Shao just can win the majority of the times against him, but it doesn't make him unquantifiably superior.
Shao himself in MK9 first loses to Liu Kang, but then he defeats the very same Liu Kang in Aftermath. The same happens with Kitana and Kung Lao, characters that are overall comparable to Shao and might get a victory over him (like Kitana did) but doesn't necessarily defeat him all the times.

What inconsistency? Please explain this, I've heard people saying that it depends on the user but I haven't seen some reasoning for that yet.

That's because people hit by the Amulet or by attack fueled by it don't always get pulverized. We see the Amulet overcoming Kotal's fire and then incinerating some soldiers, and also those powered by the amulet (Raiden and Shinnok) can do the same. But then, not all those struck by it are annihilated, as we have seen with Kotal. Scorpion and Liu Kang can also survive. Shinnok also was continuously tortured by Raiden's lighting, which where empowered by the amulet, without being turned to dust. This means that the medallion can either pulverize just beings far weaker than its user (or than itself) or that the effect depends on the user will, as they might decide to kill or not kill their victim. I don't see it too likely, honestly, as Mileena would have surely killed Kotal is she had the chance.

The Medallion acting as an amplifier of the user's power might be demonstrated by Mileena struggling a bit before overcoming Kotal's blast, but we actually don't have more solid confirmations of this.

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

e

I mean Kotal got defeated in the cutscene before that fight, not to mention that the cutscene shows Shao being the superior one among them, plus the match after that was decided by gameplay. Shao Kahn was fine after that when he retreated with D'Vorah and the gang. On the other hand, Shao Kahn puts a lot less effort on hurting Kotal Kahn with his physical strength or his hammer.
I don't know what does this have to do with the other stuff. I don't recall Kung Lao beating Shao (it's the opposite and Shao owns him twice) and for Kitana, she just spared him and slashed him in the eyes (a common weakpoint) and Shao wasn't killed by that. A stronger version of Kitana got owned by Shao with a single hit anyways.

It could be that the Amulet just has different applications rather than being inconsistent. Scorpion and Liu Kang are not good examples, since Raiden didn't intend to kill them both but rather force them to obey him. Raiden also didn't use the amulet's powers on Shinnok, only his lightning. The amulet only corrupts his powers and it doesn't imbue his powers with its properties.

The amulet is implied to be so powerful that only people who can control it can safely wield it. Mileena's hand got burned because she couldn't control the amulet (either with prolonged usage or when using more of its power, or a combination of both which seems likely) and she got KO'd when using it for too long.

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

I'm not sure if there's anything else to talk about regarding revisions, so I guess we can start editing in these new revisions, provided that we have an admin to agree with this.

 

[SamanPatou]

I mean Kotal got defeated in the cutscene before that fight, not to mention that the cutscene shows Shao being the superior one among them, plus the match after that was decided by gameplay. Shao Kahn was fine after that when he retreated with D'Vorah and the gang. On the other hand, Shao Kahn puts a lot less effort on hurting Kotal Kahn with his physical strength or his hammer.

Shao is stronger than Kotal overall, but it doesn't change that he lost to him in a direct 1v1 match, which makes them comparable at the very least.

I don't know what does this have to do with the other stuff. I don't recall Kung Lao beating Shao (it's the opposite and Shao owns him twice) and for Kitana, she just spared him and slashed him in the eyes (a common weakpoint) and Shao wasn't killed by that. A stronger version of Kitana got owned by Shao with a single hit anyways.

I mentioned Kung Lao because he is comparable to others who have faced Shao, but I admit he isn't the best example. Kitana didn't just spar with Shao, she landed a clear hit on during a cutscene and win the match clearly and didn't kill him because he wanted to spare him (as Sindel said when she freed Shao). The same happened in Aftermath, with Shang tsung acknowledging that Shao is more ego than skill. But then Shao gets his revenge and defeats a bunch of characters who could compete or win against him in different occasions. Shao is overall stronger than hem in phyisicals, but they can't logically be too much inferior to him. Comparable characters can win and lose against each other in different occasion, that's why they are comparable, which means that neither of them is too much above or below the other.

It could be that the Amulet just has different applications rather than being inconsistent. Scorpion and Liu Kang are not good examples, since Raiden didn't intend to kill them both but rather force them to obey him. Raiden also didn't use the amulet's powers on Shinnok, only his lightning. The amulet only corrupts his powers and it doesn't imbue his powers with its properties.

The amulet is implied to be so powerful that only people who can control it can safely wield it. Mileena's hand got burned because she couldn't control the amulet (either with prolonged usage or when using more of its power, or a combination of both which seems likely) and she got KO'd when using it for too long.

Then I guess the most logical outcome is that the deconstructing properties of the amulet depend on the user's will and ability to use it, although Kotal surviving the direct blast, while the guards got annihilated by its shockwaves makes me thing that particularly strong individuals can resist and just being damaged in a generic way.

 

[Antvasima]

I'm not sure if there's anything else to talk about regarding revisions, so I guess we can start editing in these new revisions, provided that we have an admin to agree with this.

What have you decided here and why?

 

[Hellbeast]

He still gets a clear-cut victory in 1v1, which means they are at the very least comparable. And even during their second clash at the arena, Kotal could still hold his own. Shao just can win the majority of the times against him, but it doesn't make him unquantifiably superior.
Shao himself in MK9 first loses to Liu Kang, but then he defeats the very same Liu Kang in Aftermath. The same happens with Kitana and Kung Lao, characters that are overall comparable to Shao and might get a victory over him (like Kitana did) but doesn't necessarily defeat him all the times.


That's because people hit by the Amulet or by attack fueled by it don't always get pulverized. We see the Amulet overcoming Kotal's fire and then incinerating some soldiers, and also those powered by the amulet (Raiden and Shinnok) can do the same. But then, not all those struck by it are annihilated, as we have seen with Kotal. Scorpion and Liu Kang can also survive. Shinnok also was continuously tortured by Raiden's lighting, which where empowered by the amulet, without being turned to dust. This means that the medallion can either pulverize just beings far weaker than its user (or than itself) or that the effect depends on the user will, as they might decide to kill or not kill their victim. I don't see it too likely, honestly, as Mileena would have surely killed Kotal is she had the chance.

Thing is that would just be a feat for the likes of Liu and Scorpion whom we are already scaling to the top tiers

I also don’t know if the Amulet just amps Raiden passively; he’s corrupted but we still see him do the same stuff between both versions (lightning swords)

The Medallion acting as an amplifier of the user's power might be demonstrated by Mileena struggling a bit before overcoming Kotal's blast, but we actually don't have more solid confirmations of this.

It’s certainly possible but I almost feel like that’d be her inexperience compared to Gods like Raiden and it’s actual creator (Shinnok) but it could also be a showing of Kotal not being overwhelmingly weaker then the top tiers or the Amulet

It really depends tho

 

[Lightning_XXI]

What have you decided here and why?

I was adding the accepted stuff, but since new discussions appeared, I'm just waiting

For now I guess it's about Kotal and Noob and their scaling, and I keep my previous opinion, Kotal should have two keys, one Low Tier and the other Mid Tier, and Noob just Low Tier

 

[SamanPatou]

Some questions, why are some characters going down to 9-A? I though High 8-C scaling was fine due to oni warlords busting a wall and Kintaro and Sheeva surviving those explosions.

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

All of your answers are in the OP

 

[EliminatorVenom]

Some questions, why are some characters going down to 9-A? I though High 8-C scaling was fine due to oni warlords busting a wall and Kintaro and Sheeva surviving those explosions.

If I'm not mistaken, there were several anti-feats against the High 8-C.

Like, the High 8-C feat is valid by itself, but there are way too many showings of them dying or being heavily wounded by objectively 9-B to 9-A stuff. High 8-C seems to be the odd one out, not vice-versa.

 

[SamanPatou]

Damn, I didn't realize so many things changed in MK11 from the comics, wow. MKX still references the Reiko Accord, but I guess that's a plot hole now.

Also yeah, with the comics gone and the anti feats (some of which I actually thought about when seeing him, but I just marked them as PIS) the downgrades are good, and the reasons are as well.

I'd say that bullets could still hurt them anyway if they were High 8-C, but it is really the very very limit of what bullets can damage, and still they shouldn't deal that much.

 

[Hellbeast]

If I'm not mistaken, there were several anti-feats against the High 8-C.

Yep

Like, the High 8-C feat is valid by itself, but there are way too many showings of them dying or being heavily wounded by objectively 9-B to 9-A stuff. High 8-C seems to be the odd one out, not vice-versa.

It’s not; the showing is from the mostly non canon X Komics and since it’s not referenced we can’t use it

Damn, I didn't realize so many things changed in MK11 from the comics, wow. MKX still references the Reiko Accord, but I guess that's a plot hole now.

If it’s referenced in game then it happened canonically so you could argue Reiko’s plot is still valid but i feel we need more info before we do that (hopefully him and Havik are added to 11)

Stuff like Kotal’s past is mostly good tho so take it as you will (since Rain mentions his time as a Sun God

 

[EliminatorVenom]

I'd say that bullets could still hurt them anyway if they were High 8-C, but it is really the very very limit of what bullets can damage, and still they shouldn't deal that much.

I really ought to make a certain post about this, even if just for fun.

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Speaking of Kotal...

Yep

It’s not; the showing is from the mostly non canon X Komics and since it’s not referenced we can’t use it

If it’s referenced in game then it happened canonically so you could argue Reiko’s plot is still valid but i feel we need more info before we do that (hopefully him and Havik are added to 11)

Stuff like Kotal’s past is mostly good tho so take it as you will (since Rain mentions his time as a Sun God

...what do you think of his current ratings? Should we change them since majority of us think he should be a Mid tier.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Is gving Kotal two keys really that absurd ?

His loss to Kung Jin is something VERY important to the story since it's what allows it to go foward (He literally is in debt with him and kinda allowed Jin to kill him in cutscene), with basically all of his Mid Tier feats being on MK11

I still think he should be Low Tier in MKX and Mid Tier in MK11, or Kung Jin is a Mid Tier

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Problem is MKX Kotal has more better feats in the non retconned parts of the comics and the games as he was able to endure a beam from Shinnok's Amulet (held by Mileena who was being hurt compared to Kotal), he also has other durability feats like no selling a blast from Jacqui's gauntlets. Compared to him losing to Kung Jin, the other feats that he show seem to be more consistent than his losses which are mostly from gameplay decided matches and a QTE.

OOTH, Kung Jin is in a weird position. He gets hurt by mostly low tiers in canon cutscenes such as Erron Black, D'Vorah, the Revenants, but he manages to defeat the likes of Ferra/Torr who trashed 3/4 of the Kombat Kids. Perhaps his match against Raiden could explain that Kung Jin didn't actually want to kill or beat Kotal, since he refused Kotal's request to kill him and used his victory to broker a deal with him.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

And that's exactly my point, Kung Jin Vs Kotal isn't a simple gameplay decided match, but a fight that has big changes in the story mode

And the Mid Tiers are linked to the High Tiers by the "Likely High 8-C", literally everyone currently listed as Mid Tier had fights and even wins against High Tiers (The owners of the Tier 8 scaling), being above people like Jacqui and Mileena (Both 9-A) has no real weight in the Tier scaling, it shows Kotal as a someone stronger than baseline Low Tier, but that alone isn't enough to say he has a Likely scaling to the High Tiers (Which is what makes Mid Tiers Likely Tier 8)

The only time we see him with clear scaling is in MK11 against Shao Kahn, that's why two Keys should be the best way for him. Maybe we could make a upper Low Tier with "At least 9-A", since there are characters without any scaling to the Tier 8 stuff but are clearly superior to the average Low Tier, MKX Kotal and Jin being some examples

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

I was rewatching Kung Jin's chapter to make sure about what I'm about say.

KJ vs Kotal is an essential fight in the story, without it Kotal would never employ Earthrealm in the search for Mileena and Shinnok's Amulet. Thing is, I'm not trying to invalidate it because it's an outlier, but because this fight didn't end with any of them being injured. Kotal was fine even after he lost, and he didn't even need healing or medical aid to get back up, implying that the fight was not so intense but probably more of a H2H duel between them rather than a bloodbath. Also KJ challenged him not because he wanted him dead, but because he knew of an Outworld custom involving kombat (basically a duel that solves all problems) and he intended to use that to broker a deal with him rather than inflict lasting injuries or death on Kotal even if said kombat must end in death as stated by D'Vorah and Kotal.

So what am I trying to say with all this? KJ shouldn't scale to Kotal when he defeated him in a fight that he intended to use as a bargaining chip rather than a means to kill him. As for Kotal Kahn, I have a bit of new info on where he's supposed to sit. I think he is High 8-C for being able to block Shinnok's Amulet with his sun powers, which doesn't scale to him physically. I noticed that Kotal and the Osh-Tekk drawing power from the sun is not passive as they draw its powers by the use of incantations rather than simply being in its presence (like Superman). Might make sense with how Shao beat him since Kotal didn't seem to use the sun's powers during their fights.

Basically, he'd somewhat be with the Mid tiers except he has a different rating. Kotal would be At least 9-A (Beat a bunch of low tiers), High 8-C with sun powers (Blocked an attack from Shinnok's Amulet). Same goes for his durability since his powers were protecting him at the same time.

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

This is a bit of problem in MK11 though. His only win against anyone above the Low tiers is against Shao Kahn and the rest of them have been losses against him and likely Sub-Zero at the end of MKX.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Kotal would be At least 9-A (Beat a bunch of low tiers), High 8-C with sun powers (Blocked an attack from Shinnok's Amulet). Same goes for his durability since his powers were protecting him at the same time.

I don't have problems with this

 

[Antvasima]

So have you reached a conclusion here then?

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Looks like it, I think we just need some input from others, especially mods

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I trust your senses of judgement regarding this subject.

What do you think @SamanPatou ?

 

[SamanPatou]

I just want to note that being hurt by weaker characters isn't impossible, especially if they aren't leagues and leagues behind. And I have the feeling that throughout the trilogy most characters could very well at least hurt and even kill each other given the occasion. There are obviously untouchable top tiers and stronger characters, but being hurt by weaker characters shouldn't be too much of an anti feat.

I'm fine with Kung Jin and Kotal being mid tier, with the latter getting amps via Sun Powers.

What tier is Shao going to have? The only High 8-C feat left is God Liu becoming a meteor, right?

And to what feat do 9-A characters scale?

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Just to clarify, I meant to say that KJ is a low tier as his feats consistently put him on a level with the other low tiers. Kotal Kahn is shown to be superior to most of them, but he somewhat scales to the lesser kombatants as he is a Mid tier who are usually At least 9-A, likely High 8-C. KJ would be 9-A scaling from a lot of 9-A feats, with the highest one being Scorpion's firenado sitting at 0.09 tons.

Shao is High 8-C+. He scales to this feat by Dark Raiden. As for Fire God Liu Kang, he appears to be much more powerful than a demigod like Raiden and can fight Dark Cetrion. He belongs to a tier with only two other characters and they upscale from a High 8-C+ feat that's a few tons higher than Dark Raiden's feat which makes them baseline 8-B.

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Also, I forgot to add something to the Hourglass' and FG Liu's profile. In his ending in Aftermath, he draws some energy from the Hourglass (likely the temporal energy that Kronika mentioned) and imbues it to his flames which he uses to erase Shang Tsung. Should the Hourglass' profile have Existence Erasure? No need to add it to FG Liu's page since I added that he can use the Hourglass' powers.

 

[Hellbeast]

Speaking of Kotal...

...what do you think of his current ratings? Should we change them since majority of us think he should be a Mid tier.

I’d say so

I don’t think he’d need a key for MKX vs MK11 tho since his rating already accounts for his low ends with Lung Jij and he’s consistently above the lower tiers

Also, I forgot to add something to the Hourglass' and FG Liu's profile. In his ending in Aftermath, he draws some energy from the Hourglass (likely the temporal energy that Kronika mentioned) and imbues it to his flames which he uses to erase Shang Tsung. Should the Hourglass' profile have Existence Erasure? No need to add it to FG Liu's page since I added that he can use the Hourglass' powers.

Unsure

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Just to summarize so people don't get lost:

• Mid tier Kotal Kahn, except he's got a different rating from the usual mid tiers. Kotal Kahn would be At least 9-A, High 8-C with Sun God powers
• Kung Jin is a low tier
• EE for the Hourglass

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Unsure

Explain pls

 

[Antvasima]

Just to summarize so people don't get lost:

• Mid tier Kotal Kahn, except he's got a different rating from the usual mid tiers. Kotal Kahn would be At least 9-A, High 8-C with Sun God powers
• Kung Jin is a low tier
• EE for the Hourglass

That is probably fine if nobody here has any serious objections.

 

[Hellbeast]

Just to summarize so people don't get lost:

• Mid tier Kotal Kahn, except he's got a different rating from the usual mid tiers. Kotal Kahn would be At least 9-A, High 8-C with Sun God powers

I kinda feel Kotal should just be straight up 9-A, likely High 8-C, not just with sun beans

• Kung Jin is a low tier

Seems fine

• EE for the Hourglass

Was it stated Liu wiped him from existence using the Hiurglass?