Major Castlevania revisions

[Theglassman12]

After a few months, it's finally here. Castlevania as a series hasn't gotten the best of treatments as of late (ignoring the Netflix Adaptation), with no new game on the horizon and being exploited by Konami to no end to the point they decided to celebrate the series by doing an NFT auction, it's sad to see the series in this state. While I'd love to have this CRT posted last year for the anniversary, there wasn't enough time to go through everything and formatting the upgrades in time, so consider this a late 35th anniversary present that the series deserves. But enough talk, have at you!!

Mainline

For starters, let's get the stats out of the way. For Speed everyone will be buffed to Massively FTL+ with these calcs that are accepted for any 4-A to lower end 2-C characters, to being Infinite for the stronger top tiers thanks to Death having a feat in the novels where his normal attacks are capable of killing distance itself to attack his foes instantly.

For Lifting Strength, the 4-A characters will upscale from the Twinkle Rod's ability to pull down a star from orbit, granting them all Stellar level Lifting Strength. All of the top tiers that scales to or is stronger than Dracula's weakest state possible scales to Immeasurable thanks to him being able to lift the entirety of Castlevania at his weakest state, which is an entire world with another dimension below it.

AP will be a major change. For starters every boss in Castlevania will scale to 4-A thanks to their feats of sustaining one of the paintings made by Brauner, which is stated to be alternate worlds, one of them being large enough to contain numerous stars in the background. So that means anyone who remotely scales to the likes of Medusa, Werewolf, Dullahan, etc. would be on this level of power.

For the characters like Dario and Dmitrii, they should scale to High 3-A, possibly Low 2-C due to the fact that the latter was capable of sustaining the Abyss, a realm that can hold infinite number of monsters as it's where they come from. The Low 2-C part comes from the fact that when Menace dies, the entire castle collapses as a result, which is an entire world with another dimension below it. Since Dmitrii was capable of doing this feat, and Dario is essentially Dmitrii's rival, they should scale to this feat. Shaft also scales to the Low 2-C feat for sustaining the inverted castle.

As for all the top tiers, they will be upgraded to 2-C thanks to the Time Reaper's feat who threatened to erase all the Castlevania timelines The thing that makes this feat 2-C and not Low 2-C for those of you that are curious is the fact that in the game, Cornell is a playable character and one of the chosen warriors picked by Aeon to stop the Time Reaper. Cornell is from the Nintendo 64 Castlevania games, which aren't canon to the main timeline of the series. But Igarashi has stated in the past that any game that doesn't fit with the main timeline of the series he considers to be alternate universes/timelines.

IGA: 黙示録、黙示録外伝、Circle of the Moon、Order of Shadows、THE ARCADEは、世界観を同じくした別の世界の物語となります。黙示録、黙示録外伝、Circle of the Moonは、製作者の意図として、そのように扱っております。

Translation: Regarding Castlevania 64, Legacy of Darkness, Circle of the Moon, Order of Shadows and the Arcade, they are stories from a separate world with the same world view. Castlevania 64, Legacy of Darkness and Circle of the Moon are treated in the same way as the makers intended.

This is something very consistent with Igarashi and even other people at Konami when it comes to how the games are treated. Further proof can be found with series supervisor Adi Shankar, who in an interview regarding the Netflix series has flat out said that any games that aren't canon are parallel universes within the same multiverse. Which lines up with what Igarashi said above about the non canon games being in separate worlds with the same world view. Considering how Aeon calls upon Cornell to aid him in stopping the timelines from being erased, it wouldn't make any sense for this feat to only be Low 2-C considering Cornell doesn't belong in the main timeline, and wouldn't be affected by this event should it only target the main timeline. This feat is consistent with the fact that Dracula is capable of destabilizing the flow of time itself while at his weakest state possible, and his power can manifest itself in the form of an entire alternate dimension, his castle and is able to sustain the entirety of his castle and the inverted castle, which is an entire world with another dimension below it. Considering how the castle is a blatant stabilization feat and this happens in virtually every single game in the series, on top of other characters being capable of replicating the same feat like Richter, Shaft and others, it's safe to say that 2-C should be the rating they should get. Though there is a possible chance that you can interpret the Time Reaper's feat as Low 1-C just for the fact that them saying the flow of time was being threatened can mean the time reaper can erase a higher dimensional timeline that encompasses the entirety of the Castlevania multiverse but we'd need more consistency with that for it to be legit.

Lords of Shadow

Yes even this part of the series is getting the upgrades it deserves.

So for starters, the 5-A feat is to be blunt, kinda downplaying what the characters are capable of. Gabriel for instance is capable of defeating Satan when wearing the God Mask, which is stated that the user can destroy the entire Universe, so a blatant 3-A feat right there. For anyone comparable to LoS Dracula, they should be upgraded to Low 2-C as the castle is once again created by his power and he can sustain it. And yes it's also stated to be an alternate world and Dracula ends up BFR'ing one of Satan's Acolytes to the dimension that is his castle despite being in the human world.

Speed should be overhauled too as having mere light magic isn't really enough to get FTL, there is other things that can buff the series above FTL though. The characters can keep up with creatures who can react to Holy Water blasts, which is powered by literal sunlight, and they can tag vampires, who's blood makes them perceive lasers as slow, which should be this fast. So Massively FTL for the Lords of Shadow crew.

As for Lifting Strength, anyone that's 3-A should scale to Class K thanks to Gabriel's feat of pulling a giant Ogre down with his strength. Anyone that's Low 2-C scales to Class T thanks to Dracula and Alucard being able to pull the Leviathan apart.

Abilities

Sooo yeah let's cut to the chase. What this series has and what should be added to the profiles is way too vast for it to be listed onto this CRT as there's piles upon piles of new abilities and resistances for the characters. So after a long time of working on, arguably the most difficult part of this entire revision project, I have compiled a list of every single noteworthy characters in the franchise with their profiles all ready to go with all of their abilities, stats, equipment, etc. all listed and ready to go in my Sandbox, alongside a page for the Belmont Bloodline. Once the revisions get accepted everything in my sandbox will be cut and pasted into the profiles as I've formatted every single character to be a finished page with all of the work done. There's also a Cosmology Blog redone with all of the extra lore in mind and explaining how the series works in case anyone is curious.

So for a series as vast as Castlevania, there isn't really much of a concrete scaling for the main cast and the villains that exists out there, here's where we'll try to remedy that by going through every single canonical game in the series, explain why certain characters scale above the others, and after the mainline one is done, we will cover the non canon characters given the nature of the Multiverse in Castlevania.

Scaling

So yeah, we're going to tackle the scaling for the series since there hasn't been a proper scaling on where the characters lie in the site, so let's get into it.

Lament of Innocence​

In terms of scaling, this game shows us how a Whip of Alchemy (I'll use WoA for it) Leon is unable to fight/damage Walter, while Vampire Killer can defeat him and Death, this last one is the most important character for Castlevania's scaling, since, contrary on Dracula, Death does not get stronger with time, or, at least, lacks the quotes for that, meaning there is a first cut in scaling here, characters that can beat Death and characters that never fought him

Our first list starts with:

Vampire Killer Leon > Death =?= Walter > WoA Leon

We know Dracula's first form is basically Base Mathias (Around featless) + Walter's powers

WoA Leon defeated some notable demons like Succubus, Joachim and Medusa

Dracula's Curse​

The third game has one big misconception when it comes to scaling: Sypha and Grant

As Trevor stated in Curse of Darkness, he didn't fought the events of this game alone, and that's right, but Castlevania's lore during the games made one thing very clear: not everything can damage Dracula, that's one of the reasons for why the Vampire Killer is so important, since he's capable of doing just that, games like Order of Ecclesia showed how the humans had to try different tricks in order to fight Dracula, that being the Dominus. Now, with that mind, we can safely say that Sypha and Grant may help as backup, but they couldn't really be scaled to Trevor or Dracula (Or Alucard), because they lack the means to damage him, Trevor and Alucard (As showed in later games) had weapons that could successfully harm Drac, the scaling should work with these two. I know that in gameplay, Sypha and Grant are capable of even soloing Dracula, but when we have actual Lore going against such thing, that should be count as game mech, against Death, however, there isn't such invulnerability, so Sypha and Grant should be around comparable to Death by being to fight, react and damage him, while Trevor and Alucard scale a little higher for being able to fight Dracula, while not being exactly as powerful as him

Trevor and Alucard fought, but they obviously didn't used their full power, so instead of scaling one higher than the other, they should downscale a little from Dracula

So our list goes to:

C3 Dracula > C3 Trevor = C3 Alucard > Vampire Killer Leon > Death = Sypha = Grant =?= Walter > WoA Leon > Succubus, Joachim, Medusa

Curse of Darkness​

The third game is very interesting scaling wise

There is one very clear cut statement about Hector and Isaac's power: They have a power that rivals that of Death, that alone makes our job easier here

During the story, Trevor defeats Hector rather easily at first (Hector didn't had his full power), fights Isaac (And had a upper hand), and finally fought Full Power Hector in the end, and still was just a test for him. That does show us that Trevor is stronger than Death (Already clear to us) and the Forgemasters. Now, the real implication of Trevor's power in CoD is Hector's statement to Julia, since when Dracula comes back, Hector says they need to call Trevor, and says he can defeat Dracula again.

Now a list of Hector's bases for this statement: He saw Trevor's might first hand, he didn't knew Dracula was weakened, he lived with dracula for many years and has a good idea of his power

With that in mind, CoD Trevor should be capable of defeating C3 Dracula (The Dracula that Hector has in mind), we see how he is stronger than before, has much more magic powers and can fight Death level characters without using his full power, and one of these (Hector) actually defeated the weakened Dracula, so the scaling makes sense

About the other new character, Saint Germain, he is seen fighting Zead (Death in disguise) and fought Hector, so he should be around their level at first, eventually going one step above

CoD Trevor = C3 Dracula > C3 Trevor = C3 Alucard > Vampire Killer Leon = Hector (Full Power) > Death = Sypha = Grant = Hector = Isaac = Saint Germain =?= Walter > CoD (Weakened) Dracula > WoA Leon > Vampire and Demons of the Night

Christopher Belmont​

The forgotten Belmont has the two next games, Adventure and Belmont's Revenge, in both, Chris defeats Death and Dracula by himself

One important note, however, is that here is the start of Dracula's resurrections, and with that, his power growth. As stated multiple times during the games, Dracula gets stronger with every full resurrection, meaning the scaling starts to get a bit bigger now

Christopher > Adventure Dracula > CoD Trevor = C3 Dracula > C3 Trevor = C3 Alucard > Vampire Killer Leon = Hector (Full Power) > Death = Sypha = Grant = Hector = Isaac = Saint Germain =?= Walter > CoD (Weakened) Dracula > WoA Leon > Vampire and Demons of the Night

Worth noting that Dracula didn't revived twice with these games, he escaped in Adventure and died during Belmont's Revenge

Simon Belmont​

Much similar to Christopher, Simon has two games where he defeats, by himself, the good old Drac, who fully resurrected again during Castlevania 1 and revived again in Castlevania Simon's Quest. Similar feats, similar scaling, however, we can't say for sure how Christopher compares to Castlevania 1 Dracula, since both are just one ">" above C3 Dracula, since they have basically the same advantage, they end up being equal in terms of scaling

Simon > Simon's Quest Dracula > C1 Dracula = Christopher > Adventure Dracula > CoD Trevor = C3 Dracula > C3 Trevor = C3 Alucard > Vampire Killer Leon = Hector (Full Power) > Death = Sypha = Grant = Hector = Isaac = Saint Germain =?= Walter > CoD (Weakened) Dracula > WoA Leon > The Night

Harmony of Dissonance​

Juste's game unfortunately doesn't have a full resurrection of Dracula, only his Wraith, but he does defeat both Death and Maxim, and while we can't say how strong Wraith Dracula is, we can say he is above Death, and Maxim would be at best around Death's level when Dracula's taken hold of his being.

Our scaling leaves the game like this:


Simon > Simon's Quest Dracula > C1 Dracula = Christopher > Adventure Dracula > CoD Trevor = C3 Dracula > C3 Trevor = C3 Alucard > Vampire Killer Leon = Hector (Full Power) = Juste Belmont > Death = Maxim = Sypha = Grant = Hector = Isaac = Saint Germain =?= Walter > CoD (Weakened) Dracula > WoA Leon > The Night

Rondo of Blood​

Richter actually fights a Full Power/resurrection Dracula this time, so the scaling can go on

The current canonical fight of Richter vs Dracula, plot wise, is the SOTN one, why? Because that game is the direct sequel to Rondo of Blood with the final boss of the game being in the very beginning of the game, and despite Richter's battle being showed in many different games (Dracula X, Dracula X Chronicles, Rondo of Blood, etc), there's several statements on Maria aiding Richter in the final fight with Dracula and rivaling the powers of a Belmont, which is best shown in SOTN where she aids him when he's in need of help, therefore the most canonical showing of the scaling has to be SOTN's.

With that in mind, both RoB Drac and Richter should be equal, and Maria should scale from them. Maria's alternate mode isn't an actual ending done by player choice (The case of Dark Lord Soma and Richter's death), so it can't be used

Our scaling ends like this:

RoB Dracula = RoB Richter = Maria > Simon > Simon's Quest Dracula > C1 Dracula = Christopher > Adventure Dracula > CoD Trevor = C3 Dracula > C3 Trevor = C3 Alucard > Vampire Killer Leon = Hector (Full Power) = Juste Belmont > Death = Sypha = Grant = Hector = Isaac = Saint Germain =?= Walter > CoD (Weakened) Dracula > WoA Leon > The Night

Symphony of the Night​

Now this one should be pretty easy to explain.

Alucard defeats a much stronger Maria and Richter as well as defeat Dracula in SOTN when he resurrects all by himself with no outside help unlike his victory back in C3. So by default he scales far above everyone in the list thus far. As for anyone who's skeptical on using the PSP version of SOTN to justify Alucard fighting Maria as canonical when the original PS1 version didn't have it, It's canonical that they've fought as stated by Alucard himself. Also this time Maria isn't capable of keeping up with Richter as Alucard himself alongside many others believe Richter's the strongest vampire hunter at the time, and Maria entrusts Alucard to stop Richter's rule over the castle. Also due to Richter's inner desires to keep fighting Dracula for eternity, and all of the previous statements of him being the strongest Vampire hunter at the time, it's not much of a stretch to assume SOTN Richter should be at least comparable to SOTN Dracula.

So the scaling is as follows:

SOTN Alucard > SOTN Dracula = SOTN Richter > SOTN Maria > RoB Dracula = RoB Richter = RoB Maria > Simon > Simon's Quest Dracula > C1 Dracula = Christopher > Adventure Dracula > CoD Trevor = C3 Dracula > C3 Trevor = C3 Alucard > Vampire Killer Leon = Hector (Full Power) = Juste Belmont > Death = Sypha = Grant = Hector = Isaac = Saint Germain =?= Walter > CoD (Weakened) Dracula > WoA Leon > The Night

Order of Ecclesia​

Now this one gets a little bit tricky as this is gonna heavily rely on Judgement scaling to justify Shanoa's rating here.

So unlike the rest of the main cast who can take on and flat out defeat Dracula, Shanoa doesn't have the power to do so on her own, and she needs Dominus' full power, which is a suicide move in order to destroy Dracula. She does however manage to take on Maria in between her RoB and SOTN state in her story mode, on top of this being an early game Shanoa that does this, it does help with the scaling for her. Albus and Barlowe can somewhat keep up with her and they've clashed against each other so they downscale from her.

So here's the scaling.

Dominus' full power > OoE Dracula = SOTN Alucard > SOTN Dracula = SOTN Richter > SOTN Maria =?= Shanoa > RoB Dracula = RoB Richter = RoB Maria =?= Albus = Barlowe > Simon > Simon's Quest Dracula > C1 Dracula = Christopher > Adventure Dracula > CoD Trevor = C3 Dracula > C3 Trevor = C3 Alucard > Vampire Killer Leon = Hector (Full Power) = Juste Belmont > Death = Sypha = Grant = Hector = Isaac = Saint Germain =?= Walter > CoD (Weakened) Dracula > WoA Leon > The Night

Bram Stoker's Dracula​

Yeah surprisingly enough Castlevania takes its roots of Dracula a bit more literal as the events of Bram Stoker's novel is canonical to the series given Quincy Morris is John Morris' father.

So scaling goes like this.

Bram Stoker Dracula >= Dominus' full power > OoE Dracula = SOTN Alucard > SOTN Dracula = SOTN Richter > SOTN Maria =?= Shanoa > RoB Dracula = RoB Richter = RoB Maria =?= Albus = Barlowe > Simon > Simon's Quest Dracula > C1 Dracula = Christopher > Adventure Dracula > CoD Trevor = C3 Dracula > C3 Trevor = C3 Alucard > Vampire Killer Leon = Hector (Full Power) = Juste Belmont > Death = Sypha = Grant = Hector = Isaac = Saint Germain =?= Walter > CoD (Weakened) Dracula > WoA Leon > The Night

Bloodlines​

Getting back to the games, this one should be easy enough. John Morris and Eric Lecarde take on Dracula and win, hell John had to unlock the full power of the vampire killer just like his son, which meant he had to defeat Richter in the process.

So scaling will be this.

John Morris = Eric Lecarde > Bram Stoker Dracula >= Dominus' full power > OoE Dracula = SOTN Alucard > SOTN Dracula = SOTN Richter > SOTN Maria =?= Shanoa > RoB Dracula = RoB Richter = RoB Maria =?= Albus = Barlowe > Simon > Simon's Quest Dracula > C1 Dracula = Christopher > Adventure Dracula > CoD Trevor = C3 Dracula > C3 Trevor = C3 Alucard > Vampire Killer Leon = Hector (Full Power) = Juste Belmont > Death = Sypha = Grant = Hector = Isaac = Saint Germain =?= Walter > CoD (Weakened) Dracula > WoA Leon > The Night

Portrait of Ruins​

Now this is the last tricky one to do as the next two games onward isn't as conflicting to scale to.

For starters, Jonathan at the beginning of the game is unable to utilize the full power of the Vampire Killer to the point that his fight with Death was against a held back Death, meaning he and Charlotte at this time don't go past Death. However after the Lecarde sisters are saved, Jonathan takes in a trial to defeat the Memory of Richter Belmont, which is required in order for the user to utilize the full power of the whip, and yes this is canonical if anyone asks. At the end of the game Jonathan and Charlotte are capable of defeating Dracula when fully resurrected and with death's powers absorbed into him.

So here's the scaling.

Jonathan and Charlotte (End game) > PoR Dracula > John Morris = Eric Lecarde > Bram Stoker Dracula >= Dominus' full power > OoE Dracula = SOTN Alucard > SOTN Dracula = Jonathan and Charlotte (Mid Game) > SOTN Richter > SOTN Maria =?= Shanoa > RoB Dracula = RoB Richter = RoB Maria =?= Albus = Barlowe > Simon > Simon's Quest Dracula > C1 Dracula = Christopher > Adventure Dracula > CoD Trevor = C3 Dracula > C3 Trevor = C3 Alucard > Vampire Killer Leon = Hector (Full Power) = Juste Belmont > Death = Sypha = Grant = Hector = Isaac = Saint Germain =?= Walter > CoD (Weakened) Dracula > WoA Leon = Jonathan and Charlotte (Early Game) > The Night

1999​

The last time Dracula shows up in the series before his reincarnation is broken. This one is also easy enough, Julius defeats Dracula and is stated to be the most powerful vampire hunter ever. Alucard also shows up to fight Dracula in this era so he upscales too.

So the scaling goes like this.

1999 Julius > 1999 Dracula >= 1999 Alucard > Jonathan and Charlotte (End game) > PoR Dracula > John Morris = Eric Lecarde > Bram Stoker Dracula = Dominus' full power > OoE Dracula = SOTN Alucard > SOTN Dracula = Jonathan and Charlotte (Mid Game) > SOTN Richter > SOTN Maria =?= Shanoa > RoB Dracula = RoB Richter = RoB Maria =?= Albus = Barlowe > Simon > Simon's Quest Dracula > C1 Dracula = Christopher > Adventure Dracula > CoD Trevor = C3 Dracula > C3 Trevor = C3 Alucard > Vampire Killer Leon = Hector (Full Power) = Juste Belmont > Death = Sypha = Grant = Hector = Isaac = Saint Germain =?= Walter > CoD (Weakened) Dracula > WoA Leon = Jonathan and Charlotte (Early Game) > The Night

Aria/Dawn of Sorrow​

Now we're close to the end, so let's get this out of the way.

Soma is stated to be one in the same with Dracula's power, and he believed that Julius is still capable of defeating him even if he turned into the Dark Lord should he fail in defeating Chaos due to how much he was holding back. In Dawn of Sorrow, Soma as the Dark Lord becomes so powerful that Alucard had to break his limiter to stop Soma with the aid of Julius. Yoko downscales as she's not as noteworthy as Julius and Alucard are in their powers. Dmitrii and Dario isn't as easy to upscale given in the end of the game Dmitrii wasn't able to handle all the souls of the Abyss when he absorbed their powers. Not only that but Dario being able to beat Julius is just a result of his immortality being unnegged by Julius' powers on top of it being a potential outlier for him if he was that powerful.

So the scaling will look like this.

Old Julius >= Dark Lord Soma >= 2036 Alucard =?= DoS Soma > 1999 Julius > AoS Soma = 1999 Dracula >= 1999 Alucard =?= Graham = Yoko > Jonathan and Charlotte (End game) > PoR Dracula > John Morris = Eric Lecarde > Bram Stoker Dracula >= Dominus' full power > OoE Dracula = SOTN Alucard > SOTN Dracula = Jonathan and Charlotte (Mid Game) > SOTN Richter > SOTN Maria =?= Shanoa > RoB Dracula = RoB Richter = RoB Maria =?= Albus = Barlowe > Simon > Simon's Quest Dracula > C1 Dracula = Christopher > Adventure Dracula > CoD Trevor = C3 Dracula > C3 Trevor = C3 Alucard > Vampire Killer Leon = Hector (Full Power) = Juste Belmont > Death = Sypha = Grant = Hector = Isaac = Saint Germain =?= Walter > CoD (Weakened) Dracula >=? Dario = Dmitrii > WoA Leon = Jonathan and Charlotte (Early Game) > The Night

Miscelanneous scaling​

Alright, now here's the remaining stuff when it comes to scaling, this includes the remaining noteworthy characters as well as the non canon characters like Nathan Graves, Cornell, Sonia Belmont, etc.

Aeon is capable of keeping up with post Rondo of Blood Dracula. Carmilla's best and more consistent feat is being able to defeat the Time Reaper who threatened to erase the eras of Castlevania where dracula exists, which scales to every single character in Judgement as they can all defeat Time Reaper so Death upscales from him. Cornell upscales by being able to defeat Dracula of his era. Reinhardt and Carrie upscale from Cornell given the resurrection amp Dracula gets. Nathan and Sonia scales from Dracula in their respective eras, Shaft's capable of granting Richter the power of the castle and can sustain the inverted castle on his own. Kid Dracula upscales from Galamoth who's servant is the Time reaper. Olrox is capable of keeping up with Death, and Death himself considers him an equal.

For the Lords of Shadow scaling this should be easy. Death, alongside the rest of the Lords of Shadow is the weakest out of the noteworthy characters in the series given Death was effortlessly beaten by Satan and still believed he isn't strong enough to beat him, further stated by Dracula himself. Gabriel is capable of beating Satan even when he had the God Mask, which would make him far stronger than his base, and then as Dracula he'd gain immense power to the point no one in the Brotherhood or the creatures of the night can stand up to him. Trevor in his human state at best would scale to human Gabriel just for the fact he was specifically trained to be the chosen warrior to beat his father, while he failed to beat Dracula, he should be at least comparable to his father's human state given the similar training they've both went through. Simon and Alucard scales to being around Dracula's level.

Mainline scaling

Old Julius >= Dark Lord Soma >= 2036 Alucard =?= DoS Soma > 1999 Julius > AoS Soma = 1999 Dracula >= 1999 Alucard =?= Graham = Yoko > Jonathan and Charlotte (End game) > PoR Dracula > John Morris = Eric Lecarde > Bram Stoker Dracula = Dominus' full power > OoE Dracula = Aeon = SOTN Alucard > SOTN Dracula = Jonathan and Charlotte (Mid Game) > SOTN Richter > SOTN Maria =?= Shanoa > RoB Dracula = RoB Richter = RoB Maria =?= Albus = Barlowe > Simon > Simon's Quest Dracula > C1 Dracula = Christopher > Adventure Dracula > CoD Trevor = C3 Dracula > C3 Trevor = C3 Alucard > Vampire Killer Leon = Hector (Full Power) = Kid Dracula =?= Juste Belmont > Carmilla = Death = Olrox = Sypha = Grant = Hector = Isaac = Saint Germain =?= Walter =?= Galamoth > Time Reaper =?= CoD (Weakened) Dracula > Shaft >=? Dario = Dmitrii > WoA Leon = Jonathan and Charlotte (Early Game) > The Night

N64 scaling

Carrie and Reinhardt > N64 Dracula > Cornell > Legacy of Darkness Dracula > Death > Time Reaper > The Night

Circle of the Moon

Nathan > Dracula > Death = Carmilla > Time Reaper > The Night

Legends

Sonia > Dracula >= Alucard > Death > Time Reaper > The Night

Lords of Shadow

Dracula >= Alucard = Simon > Gabriel = Trevor > Satan (God Mask) > Satan (Base) > Lords of Shadow

AGREE: 15 (Schnee, Dalesean, Starbrand, Medeus, Chariot, Tony, Deonment, Lightning, Shmooply, SOULOFCINDER, Axiom, KLOL, Winston, Sheev, XVII)
DISAGREE:
NEUTRAL:

 

[Schnee_One]

Literally returned to the wiki for this...

I agree

 

[Dalesean027]

NFT auction

Please tell me that's a ******* joke

And this is a lot but it looks good so I agree

 

[Theglassman12]

I wish I was joking.

 

[Dalesean027]

I wish I was joking.

Bruuuuuuh what the ****

Somehow Konami finds a way to go even further down the shit hole they've dug themselves

 

[Starbrand_Fan]

Everything presented here makes sense to me, I agree

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I pretty much agree with all of this; except I'm not 100% positive of the "Pull star from orbit". Hoshi/Star has a very flexible meaning in Japanese and can often refer to planets, stars, moons, or meteors; which have all been called "Hoshi" in Japan. And especially "From Orbit" that implies it's just a meteor falling from the Earth's orbit. But if there's more details. So unsure about Stellar Lifting Strength.

But the rest is definitely good.

 

[Theglassman12]

@DarkDragonMedeus read the blog I have for the Twinkle star ID. Literally all of their abilities have Star motifs as their gimmick, so it’s not planets, otherwise they wouldn’t have stars at all in their attacks.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I did read the wiki page, but I suppose I'm fine with it in that case.

 

[Chariot190]

Agree so far, but just a quick question, is that Castlevania mobile game canon at all?
It takes place 1 year after the Sorrow novel and there was some decent scaling statements in there, like Richter being the strongest Belmont ever up to that point. Dark Lord Soma being like the most powerful character, and Julius being stronger than Alucard, Richter, Simon, Trevor, Jonathan, Charlotte, Maria, etc basically put together.

 

[Theglassman12]

Yeah it’s canon, I have scans for that in both the reworked cosmology blog and the profiles on my sandbox.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Most of it looks fine, I personally only have problems with the Sorrow parts scaling and Lords of Shadows scaling to mainline games

For starters, Soma is already powerful enough on his own to defeat Graham who has absorbed Dracula's powers making him at least equal to 1999 Dracula (if not stronger since the resurrection and getting stronger thing happens a lot in the series), supported by the fact that once you defeat him all those powers are freed from his body.

Soma is stated to be one in the same with Dracula's power

This line happens for 2 reason, the first one is that Soma just absorbed all the powers of Dracula that Graham had and realized the truth of everything and the second more obvious one is because Soma is literally Dracula reincarnated. That's why Alucard states that Dracula's magical powers (the Power of Dominance) and his soul are one and the same. It isn't that Dracula and Soma are comparable in power but they are the same person with the same magic (andsoma just got all his other powers too).

and he believed that Julius is still capable of defeating him even if he turned into the Dark Lord should he fail in defeating Chaos due to how much he was holding back.

What soma believes doesn't hold that much merit when moments prior we are told that more powers are flowing into Soma, with both him and Arikado doing their best to slow it down until he manages to defeat chaos. Basically Soma is constantly getting more and more power, the Soma that fights Julius isn't as strong as the Soma that fights Chaos.

Besides, both of them are holding down, as you all should know Soma wasn't trying to fight Julius, more so to make him listen. Both are holding back yet Soma still defeats Julius, heck Julius only holds back because he knows Soma is still there and not just Dracula meaning he knows Soma won't really kill him. Also, more confirmation that Julius thinks a lot of Soma's powers.

Some may say the bad ending when Julius goes to confront Dark Lord Soma supports the idea of Julius being massively above Soma but 2 things there: 1) We don't see a fight, only Julius coming to the room to "fulfill the promise" and 2) it ain't canon

Now the final nail in the coffin is the fact that Soma with Dracula's powers (Not a Dark Lord) confronted and defeated Chaos, the absolute God tier of the verse. Of course this Soma had more time since the Julius fight and as we know he has been absorbing more dark powers in the time it took him from the fight with Julius till he reaches Chaos.

Just to summarize: AoS Soma + Dracula's powers is the strongest character so far. Do not confuse it with Dark Lord Soma (who I will talk about later)

Now in Dawn of Sorrow:

The plot of this game is important as you shall see later but to make it short a cult is trying to create a new dark lord (not precisely ressurrect Dracula mind you) as the world needs a being of absolute evil for absolute good to exist.

This isn't castlevania btw, its a replica made by Celia and her cult. It is connected to the Abyss (which is probably how they got all the monsters and demons there along with the connection to Chaos) so there isn't a way to actually get Dracula's powers this time as they are sealed along with the castle in the eclipse. What happens here instead when Soma becomes the Dark Lord, he is overwhelmed by dark emotions and lets the evil take over, basically the same thing that happens if you lose in Aria of Sorrow at any point after the Graham fight, Chaos takes over and Soma is just another puppet but with way less power.

Unlike the AoS Soma that could keep it in check even in front of Chaos itself, this one gets consumed by it pretty fast even if it only happens by his own admission, mind you he lacks the powers of Dracula too as they are sealed along with Castlevania. As the game says "The power of Chaos is gathering"

In short, Dark Lord Soma is weaker, not only because he lacks the powers of Dracula but because he gets turned into a dark lord, a puppet for chaos and evil.

Dario defeating Julius could be an outlier but considering he has fused himself with a demon for more power and Dimitri (the other dark lord candidate) slaps Arikado away I think it is more so they are stronger. Yes I know the seal has a lot to do with it but as soma shows it isn't about negating his regeneration/immortality, what Soma did is cut off the power from the dark side with a seal. Alternatively Soma destroys the demon and the power Darius had. Basically Julius got overwhelmed in power by Darius.

The non canonical bad ending:

Alucard unleashing his power: unlike last time when Soma was the one in control and set off to defeat Chaos and Arikado could only slow down the corruption of chaos, this time Soma lost it to his dark emotions and he was consumed. He isn't any stronger than he was before and the Soma he along with Yoko and Julius will face lacks the powers of Dracula that Soma had absorbed in AoS. And even then a group of 3 spectacular warriors is needed with one being the strongest vampire hunter that ever existed.

Arikado realistically isn't that much stronger, as he gets run over by Dimitri and the dark powers he has after stealing part of Soma's power and getting dominance over a demon (a failed version of Soma's power btw since he can't control it). This demon (Menace) is defeated by Soma who still doesn't have all his power. Idk how much not being transformed limits him but either the transformation is op or he knew it was useless (and considering how easily he got slapped away I'm all up for it being useless). Side note but in Aria of Sorrow he seems to be able to use his powers (and I mean at full power) without the need to "transform" as he could use his powers in Castlevania to buy time for Soma

Julius lost to another candidate and Yoko... I don't have anything on her besides being a strong spell caster. The 3 of them managing to defeat a Soma who isn't on AoS levels seems fair to me.



In short: Soma with Dracula powers > Chaos >>>>>>>>> Old Julius + Alucard + Yoko > 1999 Julius > Dark Lord Soma. Figure out the scaling from there :v

 

[deonment]

I agree with all of the proposals in this after reading them and seeing glass' insanity firsthand

 

[Theglassman12]

Graham had some of Dracula's powers, not all of it, otherwise Soma, Dario and Dmitrii wouldn't have their powers to begin with.

Yeah he absorbed the magic from the castle, and ended up growing stronger as a result. Dawn of Sorrow made that blatantly clear when both Alucard and Julius agreed Soma was getting stronger as the Dark Lord.

He already was getting more and more power and after he got done talking to Alucard, and yet Julius still put up a good fight when holding back. Also Julius admitting he lost to Soma doesn't mean much when both Soma and Julius admitted the latter was holding back, that's the equivalent of having Jonathan pre-Vampire Killer amp be stronger than Death despite Death very clearly said he was holding back.

Us not seeing the fight in Aria doesn't mean anything, especially when Dawn of Sorrow has us do the fight and Julius and co comes out the victor, so yeah Julius is stronger.

Yeah, he beats Chaos, that doesn't really change the fact that he defeated a being that was making him stronger the more chaos energy he was granted. Again, Dawn of Sorrow blatantly says he's growing so strong that Alucard needed to team up with Julius.

Also wrong, he doesn't have way less power, it's stated the absolute opposite that he was getting stronger by being fueled with chaos' powers. Why would he be weaker from a blessing from Chaos' powers?

Also you do realize Dark Lord Soma is him getting ALL the powers of Dracula right? His fight in Dawn of Sorrow is blatant proof he has all of Drac's powers as he using them all, with the demonic transformation to boot.

Arikado's a massively nerfed Alucard, stated numerous times in games and guidebooks so him being weaker means nothing as that's the whole point.

Julius losing to Dario is a massive outlier, nothing more nothing less. The fact Dmitrii failed to contain Menace who sustains the Abyss should be in your face and I've already addressed this in the stats in the OP.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

It's beautiful guys, isn't it ? This CRT was a pain cuz Glass wanked everything

Anyway, merely a formality but I agree with the Revisions and with Glass' points regarding the Soma situation

 

[Shmooply]

Been following this project for a while now, so you know I agree with pretty much everything.
remind me why do they resist technology manip if theyre not robots

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Disregarding the scaling shit bec I have no knowledge on lore and all but I don't think the Lifting Strength can be applied at all. Those stars are both small and the shape instead of balls of nuclear energy. They're practically the complete antithesis of a real star argument.

Perhaps find a better Lifting Strength feat.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Shmooply numerous characters have tech based gear so it still applies to them and their tech won’t go to waste.

@Foxthefox1000 can you try using any argument that isn’t just visuals? Because the attack description literally says takes a star from orbit to crash to the targets.

 

[Bobsican]

Gotta drop some thoughts on what I find a bit questionable...

First of all, infinite speed sounds sus. "killing the distance" is too vague to claim that the distance wasn't literally a factor, rather than just the distance being "killed" by, well, moving, which'd be less assumptive, so I disagree with infinite speed, plus it seems outlierish when there's no other feats to back it up.

Existing on "another dimension" doesn't inherently means the Abyss has its own time axis to claim Low 2-C, so I disagree with Low 2-C for these reasons as well, High 3-A is fine, however.

Lords of Shadow stuff:

Holy Water being empowered by sunlight doesn't make it inherently fast in the same manner stuff empowered by solar panels isn't SoL. More context for this one would be better. And while vampire blood can be used as a component to a device to slow down time to the point of viewing lasers as "slow", I don't think they'd have inherently that much speed as it just doesn't work like that without further justifications (And the mere fact the item still "works" when it'd have no effect while being used by a (half? IDK about reboot) vampire implies so), so I disagree with MFTL.

LoS castle being Low 2-C at all with these justifications also sounds sus, even if real and whatever, "constant between worlds" just implies at most that it contains a planet. So I disagree with it.

Scaling:

I may be missing something, but I don't think we should act as if the Vampire Killer is simply strong, it's designed specifically to hurt Dracula and some others AFAIK, and so assuming that those that can't harm Drac must be below him AP-wise seems inappropiate, and so I'd be more generous with the scaling, as it's not like the VK partners of several games are portrayed as significantly below or similar.

 

[Shmooply]

numerous characters have tech based gear so it still applies to them and their tech won’t go to waste.

Yea, I assumed it was because of that. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Bobsican Killing distance from Death himself who's entire gimmick is death abilities, and the text also says it's moving faster as a result by just ignoring distance altogether. That's not something I would say is vague when it's Death himself doing it and it elaborates on it going fast. Not only that but this is not an outlier when it's done by a top tier character in the series. Everyone else's feats which are far weaker doesn't remotely make this an outlier.

Not really the entire argument here, existing on top of another dimension is a supporting feat, the castle itself is an entire spiritual world as stated by Alucard.

It's used predominantly by non vampire enemies, the only noteworthy vampire that it can be used against, Dracula, doesn't work on him. He's perfectly fine against the item.

Despite the japanese kanji for world also meaning universe and you have feats of the God Mask destroying the universe so it being a planet wouldn't remotely be true.

It is strong considering you have Jonathan being mocked by Death for not unlocking its true power until later in the game, and Leon needing it to beat Walter when the Alchemy whip didn't do anything to him.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Yeah I can't see Infinite as an Outlier if even a simple ID from Hector is capable of almost instantly droping stars in the battlefield (Such feat is AP, LS and Speed)

 

[Hellbeast]

I'm not familiar but the Lords of Shadow upgrades seem strange to me
I'll let my thoughts formulate on that tho

 

[Bobsican]

Thing is, "killing distance" has multiple possible meanings, and it'd be more assumptive to claim this means that there's no distance anymore and thus infinite speed than it just being fancy wording for it just... traveling. Unlike other speed tiers, infinite speed generally requires that the characters in question are portrayed as if finite time was irrelevant to them, which isn't really the case here AFAIK.

Then what supports the criteria for Low 2-C? None of what I'm seeing over there does. Being a "world" also of course doesn't imply an independant time axis is around to fit there.

Hmmm... it could also just be a time slow resistance, and the item in itself is a time slow tool, and because of this I don't think that it having a part of a vampire means that vampires are inherently always perceiving stuff that slowly, in the same manner a car having parts of a dinosaur (fuel), doesn't mean that a dinosaur moves as fast as a car.

You'd have to cite that such kanji is being used to begin with, so until then... yeah, but if it's the case I'm fine with it if you can prove such realm has more than a planet. While there's the whole universe destroying thing, it could just refer to the regular universe, which makes sense for our purposes as we default a universe of a default cosmology to 3-A, but it wouldn't mean the other "space" is 3-A as well.

Oh, okay then.

 

[Shmooply]

Thing is, "killing distance" has multiple possible meanings,

But doesn't the scan saying that Death became faster after using that technique prove that "this is an infinite speed feat" is the most likely out of all of those possibilities? Also, what other meanings does "killing the distance" have?

 

[Theglassman12]

Where's the assumption when it comes from Death itself using his powers to try and kill someone with using death abilities? There's very little to no reason to assume he's not literally killing distance when that's his entire schtick.

World means universe in japanese, and it's a creation feat by Dracula himself with access to the passage of time.

Why would it be only time slow resistance when it's vampire blood that's utilizing the "perceive things slow"? By this logic anyone who gets the powers to see things very slow would resist time slow and not just be super fast in perceiving things.

Did you read my OP at all? I literally have the god mask feat being 3-A in the first place, with Dracula's feat of the castle being Low 2-C, which makes sense when Dracula's far more powerful than Gabriel or Satan with the god mask.

 

[Bobsican]

"killing the distance" in itself sounds like flowery language, but even by taking it literally one could interpret it as just "killing" it by... moving from point A to B, which isn't necessarily in an instant to begin with, and so it being that fast would be more assumptive. Sure, his theme is death and all, but we aren't giving characters powers just because of a thematic without a feat or statement to back it up, it's just too speculative.

"World" doesn't inherently mean "universe" in Japanese, it can mean "society", a planet, or a universe, hence why you'd have to not only prove that term is used in the JP version, but that it can't refer to society or just a planet (There's also a term in JP to directly say "universe", but that's besides the point). On that matter, I'm not saying that it lacks time, but it needs to have its own independant time from the regular universe or else it's just a tier 3 feat, we don't assume that a space that is as big (or bigger in this case technically) as a universe inherently also has its own time axis to destroy to fall as Low 2-C, unless it's properly called a "universe" in some manner as the term inherently includes time.

Hmm... good point, my bad. However, it could also just be a game mechanic then. You could still argue that they're that fast while using the item, just not... without it unless there's a good reason to scale someone while using it to someone that isn't using it.

Edit: The scan you're using for this currently says it slows down time, so nevermind, it's just a time slow that no one can really scale to speed-wise as much as we don't give a character with time stop infinite speed.

Being more powerful doesn't make one jump from 3-A to Low 2-C as much as being above a 2-A doesn't make someone Low 1-C.
I did check carefully, but I'm afraid I still don't see what supports a time axis being involved in such realm to fall as Low 2-C.

 

[Theglassman12]

So you're arguing whataboutism. Where does killing distance ever been remotely affiliated with just traveling? Especially in Castlevania of all franchises?

Ok, and the castle has an entire universe connected to it in the form of the Abyss so the planet argument doesn't remotely work here. Also no, creating an entire universe is a Low 2-C feat when you're making space, you're also making time itself. Again, the passage of time part proves otherwise as he has his own passage of time in his castle.

Clearly you didn't because one of my scans literally mentions going from the past to the present, meaning they're alternate worlds with their own time axis.

 

[Bobsican]

I mean, where has it been affiliated with there being no distance to begin with? The burden of proof would be on you to prove that, again, we go with the least assumptive alternative, and granting infinite speed out of this is just more assumptive, if you still disagree after this I think it'd be best to see what others think on the matter.

Creating space doesn't inherently include time, in the same manner we don't assume a pocket reality has its own time axis for the purposes of tier 2 without something to claim otherwise. Being as big as a universe also doesn't inherently make it include its individual time axis for the purposes of tier 2 either.

We also shouldn't mix up canons like that, there's no citation to claim that LoS castle has an Abyss with the same characteristics as of the main universe to begin with.

Time travel is irrelevant when such alternate worlds lack proof of having their own time axis to begin with, as needless to say, it could just have been the time of the regular universe, and we'd require something more to claim otherwise.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

disagree on scaling type 4 acausality to all chaos beings. The acausality from being affected by the castle, the other demons shouldn`t scale to it

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Gonna comment on this in a bit. Just leaving this post here as a heads-up.

 

[Chariot190]

Actually tbh the killing distance feat might be spatial + death manip. After all, it isn't crossing a distance instantly due to speed, it's crossing it due to death hax, unless someone dodged that specific move, in which case yeah it'd be infinite. but that'd be due to the dodger, not the move itself.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Actually tbh the killing distance feat might be spatial + death manip. After all, it isn't crossing a distance instantly due to speed, it's crossing it due to death hax, unless someone dodged that specific move, in which case yeah it'd be infinite. but that'd be due to the dodger, not the move itself.

I mean it's a casual move from Death, and Castlevania characters can defeat it ever since Leon in the first game (In terms of story)

 

[Shmooply]

Olrox is also shown dodging the move in said scan and Dracula should be far superior than him.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Gonna comment on this in a bit. Just leaving this post here as a heads-up.

Even the vaguest mention of low 1-C will summon you it seems.


Overall I agree with the proposals since I already knew @Theglassman12 was planning to revise Castlevaina however I do understand a couple of @Bobsican concerns with the infinite speed context.

To think after over four years Castlevania may get bumped back up to 2-C

 

[Chariot190]

I mean it's a casual move from Death, and Castlevania characters can defeat it ever since Leon in the first game (In terms of story)

It being casual doesn't mean he's always using it. If nobody dodges it or is shown to be able to avoid it then obviously it doesn't scale, it's effectively just teleporting one's attack.
And in regards to Olrox dodging, did he really? It says an afterimage was cut, but it never said he actively dodged it, did he move ahead of time and Death just struck the afterimage? That could be the case. Or did he dodge while it was cutting the distance? It's to vague to concretely say. At best it'd only be possibly infinite.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

It being casual doesn't mean he's always using it. If nobody dodges it or is shown to be able to avoid it then obviously it doesn't scale, it's effectively just teleporting one's attack.
And in regards to Olrox dodging, did he really? It says an afterimage was cut, but it never said he actively dodged it, did he move ahead of time and Death just struck the afterimage? That could be the case. Or did he dodge while it was cutting the distance? It's to vague to concretely say. At best it'd only be possibly infinite.

Thing is, he does

The move on the novel is Death summoning scythes and using them to attack its enemy, that is used on basically every single boss battle against it in the games and all characters can react to this

I guess we can't say for sure if in this instance Olrox dodged the attack or moved ahead of time, no reason to assume one or the other on its own but that isn't necessary, like I said this move is a very common attack from Death, Olrox dodging it would be just as what happens in the games

 

[Chariot190]

I've read the novel lad, and I've played the vast majority of the games, I'm well aware of how Death attacks, and the thing is, he isn't always doing what you're syaing he does.
Ignoring the fact it outright specifies it's not the same as usual. You're conflating him summoning scythes to attack with him killing distance every time, unfortunately, not how it works, his scythe move and him killing distance are two completely different things, did he kill distance with said scythes to strike a foe in this case? Yes. Is killing distance an inherent, automatic, quality of these scythe moves? No it isn't.
Unless we know for a fact he does this every single time, we don't say he does, and he doesn't use it every single time, that much is obvious, ergo, claiming he does, straight up doesn't work. Just because he can, doesn't mean he always does. CIS is a thing after all.

Case and point, we don't know if Olrox dodged it in this case, especially when it straight up says Death struck an afterimage, this could very much imply that Olrox was already moving and Death just ****** up and hit the wrong thing, or it could imply Olrox was so fast that he dodged it and in his stead was an image, we don't know,. to move, it doesn't specify dodging.

At the absolute best, it'd be possibly Infinite, and that's a tad generous as it is.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I agree with the OP.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Chariot190 Olrox literally dodges the move in the very scan Death kills distance. Same with virtually every single character who dodged his sickle ability he spams as that’s a basic thing he does.

Also his first instinct against someone who opposes Dracula is to use his same sickle attack that he always does in the series, this time however we can hear from his perspective on what he does when using the sickle moves. That’s the only thing remotely different about how he uses these same moves, that we see it from Death’s perspective on what he does. Richter has a cutscene of dodging these moves in Dracula X chronicles

I don’t really understand what you’re arguing here when Olrox even has showings of physically moving while the afterimages happen. He only makes afterimages when he’s already moved, so he has to have at bare minimum reacted.