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Magnus the Red vs Vecna

In a reality that lacks a higher dimensional existence, Type 2 would be indistinguishable from Type 1. It is the same thing but bound to reality. Type 1 is the same idea taken to the highest degree.

This isn't the place to discuss this and we should stop derailing regardless, but Type 2 does have a reason to exist.
 
But that's the thing, you can't have a Platonic concept bound to Time, Space or Reality, because it's then bound by accidentals, it's then bound by everything it makes up.

You can't have a Type 2 Concept. The point of the Platonic concept is that it was the purest and perfect form of Something, Atemporal and Aspatial, if you take the Atemporal and Aspatial part from it, you lose all the things that a Platonic concept represents, it's no longer a Platonic concept, True or False.
 
Not gonna get into it, I'd make a CRT if you think the ability is important. For now, neither has an actual way to kill the other.
 
If he resists conceptual destruction from lower beings that means nothing because Magnus is not one of these lower beings. His type 2 scales pretty high actually. He has type 2 as a Primarch who merely travels through the Warp passively creating concepts and creating phantom worlds with his will alone also being able to kill Daemons causally with his bare hands. As a Daemon Primarch his powers have been amped immeasurably higher by Tzeentch. If somehow conceptual destruction is not enough and type 5 is apparently able to be affected by type 2 then I agree it's incon. I'll agree with incon till that thread Type 5 is resolved is done. I don't think people are getting Type 5 properly.
 
Emperor. He resists Type 2 Concept Manip on his dimensional level (4-D) and has a decent chain of upscaling. They are "lower" in rank. Verse equalization does not actually give Magnus the ability to bypass resistances.

As of right now, Magnus has literally no method of killing Vecna and (apparently) due to Type 5 Acausality, Vecna cannot affect Magnus.
 
Then when those revisions go through, Vecna thinks at him and he dies.

Until then, neither can kill the other.
 
Where does this chain come from by the way. I don't doubt it just curious. Magnus' conceptual manipulation was also 2-C initially in his Primarch state so not that it matters. Magnus can still kill him by conceptual destruction.
 
This chain comes from upscaling from the Demon Lords of the Abyss, Archdevils of the Nine Hells, and the various lesser deities below him. Also, as for 1-A Resurrection... ima just ignore that for a bit, unless someone wants to substantiate that claim (I'd assume it comes from Tzeentch considering Magnus is essentially Tzeentch's toy). Even then, mindhax. If the wiki collectively decided Type 2 Concept Manip is enough to interact with Type 5 Acausality, Vecna has literally endless amounts of methods of incapping Magnus with a thought.
 
I've already shown why mind hax won't work up above. 1-A resurrection comes from Magnus being one of Tzeentchs favourite subjects which very much wanted to come to Chaos since he was created. You ignored he is unbound by morality. And your last bit means nothing unless you bring stuff up. Also demonstrate that all his abilities are conceptual to interact with Magnus. And Magnus can still kill him with his destruction.
 
Also, I've found that "citation" for "Type 2 affecting Acausality type 5"

It's Shadow the Hedgehog.

Nice.
 
If he can affect Type 5 Acausality he can. As for 1-A Immortality, being liked by a 1-A doesn't give you 1-A Immortality.

I don't need to demonstrate it if Type 2 Concept Manip works on Type 5 Acausality, which is apparently being decided elsewhere. If it does, literally any power Vecna uses is conceptual as Vecna is the embodiment of multiple concepts.

How? How does Magnus neg all of Vecna's resistances, Mid-Godly, and Immortalities? Coz you've said literally nothing on these.
 
Udlmaster said:
Also, I've found that "citation" for "Type 2 affecting Acausality type 5"
It's Shadow the Hedgehog.

Nice.
Click to expand...
I mean

That doesn't change anything, really, aside from a bad game series prompting changes. If it is decided to be legit then who cares what character started it.
 
I am confusion

Who?
 
He doesn't need to his conceptual destruction covers that. Being abstract means all his abilities are conceptual? No. You need feats of his abilities being conceptual otherwise they're irrelevant if we're going with this notion that type 2 affects acausality type 5. Still waiting for it to conclude. Waiting on Azzy or Matt.

I've explained why the abilities you've brought up won't work. Ive also brought uo abilities in other posts that haven't been answered like literally beimg drained of all his abilities. The summoned Daemons. Etc. He might be able to summon Tzeentchs Elite Changers Of Fate which can use fate hax I think works on other Daemons but I might be strecthing here. I'll reasearch that more.
 
You still gotta prove Magnus can somehow neg Mid-Godly, all of Vecna's Immortalities and his Resistances to pretty much everything on Magnus' profile. And... I think you underestimate what changing a concept actually can do. How broken of an ability that can be if used correctly.
 
Doesn't his Mid-Godly come from concepts? Let's just chill out and wait for the Acausality to be discussed or what not then we can continue. Agreed?
 
No. Mid-Godly comes from several things. Most notably, Vecna's Hand and Eye being able to regenerate regardless of what effects come to it (including total erasure from gods and other beings). It also comes from gods being able to regenerate themselves- Asgorath died during the Dawn War and returned later, as an example.

Mid-Godly comes from their status as a god, but not from concepts. And I agree, we should wait for the Acausality thing- if it is ruled that Vecna's Type 2 does affect Type 5 Acausals, then Vecna has a win-con and Magnus does not, making this a stomp. If it is ruled that Vecna's Type 2 does not affect Type 5 Acausals, this is a very bad incon as neither would be able to affect the other.

As for degree of resistances. Depends on the abilities. Mind hax is their best deal, with Vecna no-selling a pretty long chain of upscaling from the baseline Low 2-Cs of the verse, all of which have access to 2-A mindhax. As for other magic, it is the same chain, but not on a 2-A scale for the most part. And of course, anything body-destroying is negged by Mid-Godly.
 
Uh what? Nothing you've said makes this a stomp or a win in Vecna's favour. You act as if Magnus has no conceptual manipulation or resistance. Magnus would still be able to affect Vecna simply altering his concept then and Vecna would still be able to regenerate if the concept of himself and other concepts don't exist? Yeah I don't think so. There's still stuff I haven't gone over but I'll touch it after the acausality stuff.

Yeah I really doubt that mind hax chain I'm gonna need some scans.
 
EmperorRorepme said:
Yeah I really doubt that mind hax chain I'm gonna need some scans.
Click to expand...
It comes from their Rank. Vecna is one of the stronger Lesser Gods (if not the) all who can control their subjects across the entire multiverse, which is infinite.

Then you have them embodying their respective concepts, mindhaxing each other.

Making a list for all Lesser Gods... Yeah.

And that's not even taking into account many demon lords, all them with 4-D mindhax as well, and they are below the gods.
 
Lephyr is knowledgeable on the verse, if you're wondering.
 
To be clear, there is the possibility of infinite or nigh-infinite demon lords that Vecna would scale above. There are infinite planes of the Abyss, and of the documented ones all save a few are ruled by a Demon Lord.
 
Mr. Bambu said:
To be clear, there is the possibility of infinite or nigh-infinite demon lords that Vecna would scale above. There are infinite planes of the Abyss, and of the documented ones all save a few are ruled by a Demon Lord.
Click to expand...
Wouldn't that make him at least 2-B ?
 
No.

Why would that make him 2-B?

He is above them in strength and hax. He does not control or affect over a thousand separate space-time continuums.
 
Since he's above an infinite number of them he should be 2-B

Asriel is 2-B for being infinitely stronger than a 2-C being
 
We don't know how many of them are comparable. Most Demon Lords are never talked about even after all this time, so we don't know how much superior to them he is.
 
Also, you're confusing my statements. He upscales from infinite demon lords. He is not infinitely superior to all of them.
 
Based on what I just got told in the Type 5 Acausality thread, Type 2 Concept Manip allows interaction with Type 5 Acausality. Considering how far above baseline Vecna's Type 2 Concept Manip is, switch my vote to Vecna (assuming Magnus has any win condition).
 
I commented there, Type 2, by it's own description doesn't counter Type 5 Acausality.

They haven't even given a reason why it would affect Type 5s.
 
Being transcendent over this level of reality, it seemed like.
 
It seems he does but he only resists on his greater god key. Seriously, if he does on his lesse god key then people need to fix this stuff up. Also I literally have no idea to what degree he resists it. I've already answered the 2-A scale part. I said he can use his speed to go through infinite universes and destroy the concepts in each.
 
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