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Magnus the Red vs Vecna

Sometimes Tzeentch will revive him instantly sometimes he might take years depends on how Tzeentch basically feels.
 
Time is meaningless to Tzeentch and Magnus so it's incorrect to judge it that way. If Magnus dies he's instantly brought back. Magnus is his favourite being. Multiple arguments of mine have been ignored so no there's a lot of things Magnus can do to Vecna. There's nothing Vecna can do here even without Acausality. I've already shown a couple of ways Magnus can take out Vecna's reliant immortality.
 
Now it's time for the big one since no one is listening to my other arguments for some reason.

Magnus just absorbs anything used on him. Strips away the abilities for his own. Copies them. I've already disproved Mind Hax and Death Hax. No one has displayed how Vecna has got the capacity to Mind Hax a being of Magnus' nature he's beyond morality Death Hax isn't working. He isn't just a regular abstract being as proven above and then ignored. Literally no ability of Vecna's will work he has never dealt with beings on Magnus' abstract level. Only beings who embody multiple concepts as displayed above Magnus is much more complex then that. Even without the abstract argument and acausality, Magnus can only be affected by conceptual attacks. I have come to the realization that most of Vecna's abilities are scaled from lower characters. So now they need to be conceptual to work disregarded Type 5 Acausality which hasn't been concluded yet.

If Magnus really wanted he could get Tzeentch's help. Tzeentch literally asked him if he wanted him to take out the Space Wolfs in a Thousand Sons for Magnus but he rejected it. But this was when he rejected Chaos and was loyal to The Emperor. I'll fetch the quote.

Here's Tzeentch talking to Magnus:

"I told you it was the easiest trap to set," said the reflections, their voices slippery and entwined. "Now you know the truth of it."
"Was this always what you wanted?" asked Magnus. "To see me destroyed?"
"Destroyed? Never!" cried the reflections, as though outraged by the suggestion. "You were always to be our first choice, Magnus. Did you know that?"
"First choice for what?"
"To bring about the eternal chaos of destruction and rebirth, the endless succession of making and unmaking that has cycled throughout time and will continue for all eternity. Yes, you were always first, and Horus is a poor second. The Eternal Powers saw great potential in you, but even as we coveted your soul, you grew too strong and caused us to look elsewhere."
The reflections smiled with paternal affection, "But I always knew you would be ours one day. While suspicious eyes were turned upon you and your Legion, we wove our corruptions elsewhere. For that you have my thanks, as the Blinded One has lit the first fire of the conflagration, though none yet see it for what it is."
"What are you?" asked Magnus, stepping through the doorway to re-enter the wreckage of his chambers.
Proof it's Tzeentch

"You know what I am," said his reflections. "Or at least you should."
One splintered eye shifted, swirling until it became a fiery snake with multicoloured eyes and wings of bright feathers: the beast he had killed beneath the Mountain of Aghoru. It changed again, morphing through a succession of shimmering forms, until Magnus saw the shifting, impossibly massive form of the shadow in the Great Ocean.
"I once named myself Choronzon to you, the Dweller in the Abyss and the Daemon of Dispersion, but those are meaningless labels that mortals hang upon me, obsolete the moment they are uttered. I have existed since the beginning of time and will exist beyond the span of this universe. Names are irrelevant to me, for I am every name and none. In the inadequate language of your youngling species, you should call me a god."
"You were the one that helped me save my Legion," said Magnus with a sinking heart.
"Save? No. I only postponed their doom," said the shadow. "That boon is now ended."
"No!" cried Magnus. "Please, never that!"

"You can destroy them," said the fading reflections in the liquid glass. "Say the word and I will tear their vessels asunder, scattering them beyond all knowledge and hope of salvation."
"No," said Magnus, dropping to his knees with his head in his hands. "Never."
So yes Magnus can actually summon Tzeentch. I didn't want to use this but since my other civil arguments are being ignored it's time to go crazy.
 
EmperorRorepme said:
Time is meaningless to Tzeentch and Magnus so it's incorrect to judge it that way. If Magnus dies he's instantly brought back. Magnus is his favourite being. Multiple arguments of mine have been ignored so no there's a lot of things Magnus can do to Vecna. There's nothing Vecna can do here even without Acausality. I've already shown a couple of ways Magnus can take out Vecna's reliant immortality.
Click to expand...
Woki himself (and I think even Azzy) has stated multiple times that Magnus' immortality from Tzeentch is far to inconsistent to use in a match..

Also Magnus literally asking Tzeentch to come beat Vecna would likely be seen as outside help.
 
Alright thats true and I have asked Woki to give his input here.

The way you make it sound Magnus would just be asking Tzeentch to come and beat Vecna which would be outside help.
 
Alright I dont know enough about the difference between Summoning and Outside Help so I guess ill let someone else deal with it,

Would you be willing to repost your arguments about the Mind and Death hax?
 
I forgot to mention that Magnus now exists as "conceptual possibility" everchanging. I don't think Vecna can mindhax that. An everchanging being out of many concepts and ideas. Also I also forgot to mention that thoughts and metaphor strengthen Magnus. I'll show you the quotes if in doubt.

" Magnus had not been born as mortals were born, but had been willed into life by the designs of the Emperor. As philosophically advanced as his captains were, the concepts were too alien, too beyond mortal comprehension for any of them to understand. To be conscious of your body growing around you, to have awareness of your brain taking shape as architecture instead of organism, and to have discourse with your creator even as your existence moved from conceptual possibility to tangible reality had proved too complex to explain to those who had not experienced such a uniquely hastened evolution. "
~ McNeill, Graham. A Thousand Sons (Horus Heresy Book 12) (p. 204). Black Library. Kindle Edition.
" A bright shape descended from the mountaintop, a wavering and indistinct form wreathed in the light of stars and the power of infinite possibility. Brilliant wings of shimmering aetheric fire unfolded from the figure's back, and the Thousand Sons fell to their knees as their father's light spread over them. Magnus landed softly before his sons and they stared in amazement as his light illuminated the bleak darkness of the world. This was no corporeal shell of a subtle body as worn by the primarch when he had walked among them. This was a body of light that could exist beyond the confines of the Great Ocean. Magnus had sacrificed the flesh that had contained his essence, and in so doing had ascended to a more evolved form, one free from the constraints of mortality and the limits of reality. 'My sons,' said Magnus with weary resignation, 'welcome to the Planet of the Sorcerers.' "
~ McNeill, Graham. A Thousand Sons (Horus Heresy Book 12) (p. 555). Black Library. Kindle Edition.
" Ahriman flew out of its path, its crimson form twisting around to follow him as another predator emerged from the mists. His mental analogy of sharks had given them form, and its body was sleek and evolved to be the consummate killer. He forced his mind to empty, discarding all metaphor and vocabulary, for they were the weapons his enemies would use against him. "
~ McNeill, Graham. A Thousand Sons (Horus Heresy Book 12) (p. 112). Black Library. Kindle Edition.
 
Well I knew about the ever changing concept thingy,

But could you repost your Mind and Death hax arguments?
 
The arguments are that Vecna cannot mind hax a being as complex and contradictory as him because he can only mind hax sole or multiple concepts whilst not showing the capability to mind hax multiple concepts that are everchaging infinitely. Futhermore the mind hax would strengthen Magnus as it is conceptual in nature which strengthens him in a battle. Additionally he transcends mortality which means

1. the state of being subject to death.

2. death, especially on a large scale.

Therefore he transcends Death. He could also be argued to be transdual as he is above and beyond the Materium. He may also be higher-dimensional arguably which is something I'm discussing right now with Azathoth.
 
He could also absorb the power of the Mind Hax. Any power that is built up near him he can passively absorbed as he did to Ahriman and his whole Legion. His Mind can traverse the Warp which contained infinite dimensions. Places where Vecna cannot access. The Enumeration are conceptual tools used to allow the mind to transcend into the Warp. It also allows the actual being itself to transcend into the Warp.
 
I also guess he has 1-B Mind Hax then. Since he can Mind Hax from The Warp, If Vecna has 2-A mind hax just for having that sort of range and being able to mind hax fodders.
 
Man we really need the Horus Heresy to end since it sounds like there will be a huge Primarch revison since they are all missing a bunch of abilities.
 
1. I've literally just talked to Wok about 1-A Immortality. By debunked I mean it isn't useful in combat- his response sums up to it exists but it isn't exactly reliable. So the "instantly" thing I have issues believing.

2. Vecna resists absorption/power mimicry/etc.

3. Vecna is able to affect Type 1 Abstracts. Beings that literally only exist as abstraction. Devils are thoughts and ideas. Affecting them is child's play. Been over this one, too.

4. Vecna's abilities are not scaled from lower characters. Most of his relevant powers come from standard powers of the gods themselves. If you don't realize, not every D&D character has Existence Erasure, Mid-Godly, and Conceptual Manipulation Type 2. Not even sure where this misconception came from tbh.

5. Outside help is just flat out not accepted in a versus debate. So that's a big yikes. Summoning is acceptable but Magnus doesn't do it as an opening move so moot point.

6. Existing as a conceptual possibility means not much. He can mindhax both abstracts and conceptual beings- nothing in that state of being makes Vecna unable to mindhax.

The second acausality revisions are done, Vecna haxes instantly. And, as a final note, oh my lord, range =/= potency of mindhax. It counts on the number/dimensional level of minds haxed. Even if you mindhaxed a 3-D being with 11-D power that'd still be 3-D mindhax.
 
The misconception likely comes from WoD, where all the lower tier characters have loads of hax to upscales the stronger the person gets.

And for certain people on the cite, Any Tabletop game is assosiated with all other Tabletop games.
 
Ah. Right. Of course.

So GURPS, basically.
 
Pretty much.

Some people on the cite see them all as one thing they want gone because, I guess they don't like Tabletop games, well, maybe except Warhammer.
 
No if Tzeentch's favourite being was destroyed he would resurrect him instantly. Not that this matters anyway.

Doesn't debunk Magnus absorbing the Mind Manipulation at all. If he thinks at Magnus it gets absorbed plane and simple. In the same way Magnus casually absorbs conceptual Warp energy. There's also reversal or reflection he could do.

Yes Vecna can interact with conceptual beings if I said he couldn't forget that.

Alright.

It's not outside help, it's literally communicating with Tzeentch and summoning him, Tzeentch resides in The Warp too so if Magnus went there with a thought and Vecna has to go there to interact assuming he can even move because you require Type 5 Acausality to do so, beating Magnus in the materium means nothing you need to kill him in The Warp. Only his avatars exist in the materium. TF Daemons beings are too powerful to exist there.

He doesn't even need to summon Tzeentch anyway he could easily summon Higher-Dimensional Changelings or Greater Daemons. Sometimes he's started battles with summoning or transmuting his enemies into Daemons he controls.

Conceptual Possibility means a lot actually. Magnus is a being with infinite contradiction, metaphor, thoughts and possibility who constantly changes. That's his nature of being a minor essence of Tzeentch. I already know Vecna can mind hax conceptual beings but he's never handled a being with as much complexity as Magnus.

Range =/= Mind Hax I know. However if Vecna gets "2-A Mind Hax" for manipulating beings across and infinite multiverse that is directly range. If Magnus can manipulate beings across the materium whilst being in The Warp he should count too.

Other arguments of mine haven't been taken into account too which is annoying like sealing and BFR into The Warp. Sending Daemons to mess with his concept. Can he resist that many Daemons conceptually manipulating him?
 
No.

> Absorbing mind manipulation alright but like what this is conceptual mindfuckery. Not thoughts, not something simple like that. This is also a being that resists absorption.

Magnus doesn't in-character lead with summoning Tzeentch, otherwise nothing Magnus did would be of any note since yeet bois, Magnus is just a plot device to shoehorn Tzeentch in.

> Can fight higher dimensional beings, is 2-C

So by higher dimensional you mean 4-D. Nais.

Vecna gets 2-A mindhax by being able to mindhax things in each and every one of those infinite+ universes.

Resists both. Next. And yes. Because Vecna would just be stronger than them.
 
In all fairness GURPS is hardly a verse

it's more like a framework for a verse
 
it doesn't have furry stuff if I recall correctly so we're safe
 
Yes conceptual fuckery. Which he absorbs. He resists absorption himself sure but the ability used on Magnus isn't resisting anything. And again maybe I should've been more specific. Concepts, Thoughts, Metaphors, Contradictions, Huge Changes, The Act of Fighting etc. Empower Daemons in a fight.

Magnus doesn't no. Never said he did. Just proposed it as yet again another way of Magnus to win because of my other points being ignored. He does sometimes lead with summoning.

"Magnus is just a plot device to bring Tzeentch in" >This is hilariously laughable.

Never said fight. I said summon. I suggest you double-check. He can summon 1-B Changelings and Greater Daemons. Magnus should definitely have Higher-Dimensional Manipulation though like https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Angro does. I think he does somewhere on his profile.

Prove Mind Hax will work on Magnus. Already demonstarted his nature which Vecna has never Mind Haxed before.

BFR into the Warp isn't like snapping fingers and teleport [although that can be done]. It's creating a hole in the Materium and being dragged into the Warp forcefully.

I doubt it when hundreds of Daemons are all focused on manipulating one concept. Increasing the potency.
 
Gr8. Empowering does not much.

So pointless.

Hilariously laughable is a phrase. And read the context.

Proving relies on Type 5 Acausality. The second concept hax works on that, concept hax kills Magnus.

Should be noted Vecna's powers are thought based or, as they are described in verse, "subconscious will".
 
Wdym again we've been doing that for ages
 
Mr. Bambu wrote Should be noted Vecna's powers are thought based or, as they are described in verse, "subconscious will".

Subconcious makes me think passive tbh
 
I mean... not really. I wish, I really do, but no. You've gotta will it even if you don't consciously do it. It isn't stuff that's always active.
 
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