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Magnus the Red vs Vecna

I'll wait to see that with my own eyes.
 
Magnus could easily kill people worshipping him, that isn't an obsticle only the concept being in a 2-A multiverse and Mid Godly is a problem. Although maybe with immeasurabe speed it wouldn't be asinine to say he could just go through said multiverse and destroy the concept in each universe to take out Mid Godly. What is the concept he embodies or is reliant on?

Assuming mind/death hax works on abstract beings. Magnus would either shrug off mind hax. Absorb the power of the mind hax. Or use the warp to break the mind hax. Death hax is useless, he either gets killed by it and manifests a new body or resists it completely. Or just 1-A resurrects going by Tzeentch as I've seen people point out with no objection.

Also this is assuming Vecna can interact. Acausality hasn't been addressed still. If he can't then Magnus has all the advantages this would be just a matter of him finding a way to take out Vecna.
 
1. Literally all magic in D&D works on Type 1 Abstracts by the way of Devils, who have statements of just being thoughts and ideas.

2. Vecna is, as many deities are, a god of several things known as their Portfolio. This includes Destructive and Evil Secrets, Magic, Hidden Knowledge, Intrigue, etc.

3. "Shrugging off mindhax". So the mindhax works and he has no defense to it, ergo we now have Vecna winning. Same for the Warp thing, if he is mind controlled/wiped/etc then he isn't going to be doing much, really. And... can he absorb mindhax? Is that a feat he's done, or headcanon?

4. Fair enough on Deathhax, I guess. Tzeentch resurrecting him, assuming that's actually valid, would work. Death hax has negated the other points you've made, though- reincarnating and such. Those are things low-tiers in D&D can do pretty easily and Vecna just rofl's that.

5. His Acausality largely comes from simply being in the Warp, yes? That's a power of the place, and if Vecna, too, goes to the Warp, then Type 5 is literally pointless. Vecna might be able to interact with them otherwise, we're still digging through D&D stuff after all this time and making new discoveries, but just being in the same place should be enough.
 
1. All magic in D&D works on Abstracts? I'll take your word for it.

2. Alright

3. He has defense to mind hax. Him and all the Primarch have very high resistance to mind hax in base, now being a Primarch of Tzeentch which is a huge amp, who's cults utilize any ability you can name, which is what I mean by shrug off mind hax. While he is getting mind haxed he can resist it and then use the Warp to break it. He can absorb the energy the mindhax is using easily. While being mind haxed and resisting it assuming verse equalised he absorbs the energy.

I forgot to mention that Magnus now exists as "conceptual possibility" everchanging. I don't think Vecna can mindhax that. An everchanging being out of many concepts and ideas. Also I also forgot to mention that thoughts and metaphor strengthen Magnus. I'll show you the quotes if in doubt.

Magnus had not been born as mortals were born, but had been willed into life by the designs of the Emperor. As philosophically advanced as his captains were, the concepts were too alien, too beyond mortal comprehension for any of them to understand. To be conscious of your body growing around you, to have awareness of your brain taking shape as architecture instead of organism, and to have discourse with your creator even as your existence moved from conceptual possibility to tangible reality had proved too complex to explain to those who had not experienced such a uniquely hastened evolution.
~ McNeill, Graham. A Thousand Sons (Horus Heresy Book 12) (p. 204). Black Library. Kindle Edition.​
A bright shape descended from the mountaintop, a wavering and indistinct form wreathed in the light of stars and the power of infinite possibility. Brilliant wings of shimmering aetheric fire unfolded from the figure's back, and the Thousand Sons fell to their knees as their father's light spread over them. Magnus landed softly before his sons and they stared in amazement as his light illuminated the bleak darkness of the world. This was no corporeal shell of a subtle body as worn by the primarch when he had walked among them. This was a body of light that could exist beyond the confines of the Great Ocean. Magnus had sacrificed the flesh that had contained his essence, and in so doing had ascended to a more evolved form, one free from the constraints of mortality and the limits of reality. 'My sons,' said Magnus with weary resignation, 'welcome to the Planet of the Sorcerers.'
~ McNeill, Graham. A Thousand Sons (Horus Heresy Book 12) (p. 555). Black Library. Kindle Edition.​
Ahriman flew out of its path, its crimson form twisting around to follow him as another predator emerged from the mists. His mental analogy of sharks had given them form, and its body was sleek and evolved to be the consummate killer. He forced his mind to empty, discarding all metaphor and vocabulary, for they were the weapons his enemies would use against him.
~ McNeill, Graham. A Thousand Sons (Horus Heresy Book 12) (p. 112). Black Library. Kindle Edition.​
4. Yes Deathhax is useless. He can resist death hax also.

5. His Acausality comes from existing in the Warp where the concept of causality has no meaning. Assuming Vecna can get to the Warp isn't the problem it's if he's able to interact with the Warp which doesn't have the concept of cause and effect. Magnus isn't bound by the rules whilst Vecna is to an extent. That's why I'm questioning interaction.

And to add another point. Can Vecna resist having his power stolen? Or energy stolen. Magnus can do it pretty casually. The rest just to show Magnus badassery.

'I understand it,' said Magnus, coolly. 'Take off your mask.' The Space Wolf flinched as though slapped, and Ahriman sensed a ferocious build up of power. He gasped as the energy filling him was drained in an instant, siphoned off by a mind infinitely greater than his. With painful deliberation, his limbs shaking with the effort of resistance, Skarssen reached up and unfastened the buckles securing his mask. He pulled it from his face to reveal features that were craggy and worn like a storm-carved cliff. Clean-shaven, with high cheekbones and a brow pierced with jutting canine fangs like a crown, his lower jaw was tattooed to mimic the toothed jawbone of a wolf. Throbbing veins pulsed at Skarssen's temple. 'That's better,' said Magnus. 'I never like to kill a man without first seeing his face.' Magnus seemed to swell, growing in stature, while simultaneously remaining as he had always appeared. The wolves yelped, lowering their heads and backing away from the mighty primarch, and Ahriman saw the beginnings of… not fear exactly, but the wariness of prey. Skarssen had come with one purpose, to bring the Thousand Sons to the Ark Reach Cluster. He had delivered his message in the most unequivocal way possible, but Magnus could not be so easily dominated by the brute force of the Space Wolves. 'Kill me and you will suffer the wrath of the Great Wolf,' hissed Skarssen. 'Be silent!' thundered Magnus, and the world stilled. All sound died as the wind ceased its moaning and salt crystals hung motionless on the hardpan. 'You are nothing to me, Amlodhi Skarssen Skarssensson. I can kill you where you stand, before you or any of your savage brethren could lift a hand to stop me. I can smash your ships to debris with a thought. Know this and choose your next words carefully.' Ahriman saw that Skarssen was not a warrior without courage, his aura instinctively rebelling at the challenge in Magnus's words, but nor was he without the wit to understand that he was a mote in the face of the primarch's power. He looked to his left and right, seeing the world frozen around him, every banner hanging motionless and every observer save the Thousand Sons like statues lining a triumphal roadway. Skarssen lifted his head to expose the corded muscles of his thick neck, and Ahriman recognised the symbolism of the gesture. Magnus nodded and the world snapped back into its natural rhythms. The wind blew once more and the silk banners flapped in the haze of dancing salt crystals.
~ McNeill, Graham. A Thousand Sons (Horus Heresy Book 12) (pp. 107-108). Black Library. Kindle Edition.​
 
3. Vecna can mindhax conceptial beings, and his resistance is something I severely doubt being comparable to Vecna's mindhax. His mindhax upscales immensely. Magnus may resist it, and that's just jolly, but Vecna's mindhax works on beings that resist. In D&D, literally even the weakest fodder resists Mindhax, and it keeps building up and up and up the higher you go.

4. See my above point. GG resisting, then it works on you anyways.

5. Right. So Vecna can just go there. This is a moot point. And yes. Vecna and MOST of D&D have proven resistances to nearly every ability. Once again, pretty much even fodder can resist having their energy stolen. Because D&D is haxed and needs to balance itself.

So. Since all the above points for Magnus are now... totally destroyed. Vecna thinks, Magnus ded, gg.
 
When they mindhaxed literally any devil

Who are Type 1 Abstracts
 
Back then we didn't have proof of Devils being Type 1 Abstracts, I believe. But you can definitely have mind affecting stuff on a Devil.
 
3. You ignored the whole point. Assuming he can mindhax conceptual beings, it's the fact that Magnus is made of multiple concepts, metaphors and thoughts and is conceptual possibility, everchanging. Prove he can mind hax a being such as this. I'm starting to doubt Vecna being able to mindhax conceptual beings could you give evidence he can? Zach is pretty knowledgable in DnD and seems to object.

4. I highly doubt Vecna's mind hax works in the first place, and being empowered by the warp he should resist just fine. Ignoring the point where he can absorb the energy of the mindhax.When he's starting to get mindhaxxed he just absorbs the energy easily as I've displayed with quotes above, Death Hax won't work because Warp Magnus is trancendant over mortality which should give him type 5. Also ressurection and resistence is always a thing.

5. Ignored the point again. You haven't even proven Vecna can get to the warp. Point is can he interact with the warp that is unbound by causality. It isn't a matter of just existing in the warp, It's a matter of interacting with the warp being able to comprehend, make movements, which Vecna cannot do so you haven't proven he can interact with Magnus at all.

None of my point have been debunked at all. Nice try though. "Vecna thinks Magnus ded". Yea-, no. Even if he were to die he just comes back.
 
3. All of the deities are made of multiple concepts. That was already pointed out. Like. Literally any deity/demigod/etc.

4. Doubt it all you like, really. Facts don't care about how you feel things should be. Vecna resists energy absorption, this has been talked about already, you just sorta don't want to believe that for some reason. SO. How good of Death hax and mindhax has Magnus resisted? Vecna's works on people who resist death/mindhax, after all. A long, long, long line who resist. And you haven't really elaborated on this point... at all. You just keep saying it.

5. Dimensional Travel? In an equalized verse that's easy.

So yes. Literally all of what you have said amounts to the following. Magnus has resistance that Vecna can easily bypass, he has Acausality Vecna can easily access, and he's a concept which Vecna can manipulate.
 
3. Ignoring another section of my stuff again, can you stop doing that? Can he mindhax conceptual possiblity, multiple concepts that keep changing. Also give evidence for this mind hax on type 1s cause I'm not knowledgable on the verse so I don't know where this comes from.

4. I'm not doubting over feelings, let's not try to bring emotive trickery into play. I doubt because I have nothing presented in front of me cough evidence cough and I only have your word. I would like some evidence. Where is it on his profile and where was it talked about? Magnus is trancendant over mortality which grants him type 5 immortality. Both mind and death hax can be absorbed by Magnus since verse equalised. His resistence is also huge. It scales from having the resistences as a Base Primarch then becoming immeasurablly stronger being a Daemon Primarch.

5. The Warp is an outerversal realm I doubt dimensional travel is able to reach there.

Ignoring Acausality point again. He has Acausality because he's able to interact with the Warp which is unbound by the concept of causality. Prove Vecna can interact with the warp or he doesn't have the same type of Acausality. You don't "access" the Acausality. You act as if Magnus also cannot manipulate and destroy concepts. Vecna's concepts can easily be manipulated also.
 
Magnus as a 2-C can Dimensional Travel there. Vecna would be able to logically do the same.
 
Dude, even if we assume he can travel to the warp just because Magnus can, it doesn't give him anything. Acausality isn't "granted" by the Warp that's not where it comes from.
 
No, it would apply to every Daemon in the warp.
~ You​
 
I think we have come to a misunderstading about that. The reason for that is because they can interact with the warp which is unbound by the concept of causality. It isn't granted by the warp.
 
The Warp being the place that is mutable based on one's willpower.

Based on your own statements, I understand it enough.
 
The warp isn't based on willpower alone at all. Nowhere in my statements does it say that outright. I can link you to Azzys blog where the warp is explained completely.
 
Considered to be a dark reflection of the material universe, the Warp is an ocean of chaotic psychic energy, raw emotion given physical form. Stirred by strong emotion and action.
~ WH40K Wikia​
 
Very misunderstood. This isn't what the Warp is. Chaotic psychic energy isn't emotion given form alone it is much more then that. It's better to research then rely on wikia definitions.
 
Statements on the warp:

"Beyond the boundaries of physical space, unrestricted by time or causality, there is a dimension utterly incomprehensible to mortal minds. It lies on the other side of dreams and nightmares, infinite in scope but without form or structure." ― Codex: Chaos Daemons, pg 6

"It is a churning ocean of chaos, raw emotion and madness given form, where the laws of physics, time and nature are meaningless concepts and nothing is as it seems." ― Warhammer 40k Rulebook (4th ed.), pg 122] >Wikia probably uses this which is outdated to say the least

"The realm of Chaos exists far outside imagination; an impossible abstraction made real only by metaphor and the roiling emotions of mortal minds. It is constantly reborn but has never changed, eternally shifting though endless in potential. No mundane sense can see, smell or hear it, and even the most powerful psykers cannot glean the Warp's true nature, lest they be driven insane. It is a place where gods thrive in constant war, fighting over the raw stuff of creation that birthed them. In this unknowable realm, titanic hosts clash, locked together in a conflict as old as the universe that can never be won." ― Codex: Chaos Daemons, pg 6

Timeless and ever-shifting, this psychic expanse is known as the Realm of Chaos, the Warp, the Immaterium or Warp space. It is a dimension parallel to our own, a universe devoid of consistency and unbound by the laws of time and space, a random, unstructured panorama of pure energy and unfocused consciousness. It is Chaos in its truest sense, unfettered by the limits of physics and undirected by intelligent purpose. Warp space is Chaos, Chaos is Warp space; the two are indivisible." ― Codex: Chaos Daemons, pg 6

"Though the galaxy of the Imperium is vast, there is another realm, alongside which the Imperium is nothing in comparison. The Realms of Chaos, the warp, he immaterrium, all the names humanity has given to this parallel dimension. None, however, can hope to encompass it, for the warp is a realm of infinite size, infinite possibilities, and infinite madness." ― Black Crusade Core Rulebook, pg 10

The Warp is just a completely metaphysical, abstract outerveral realm able to contain infinite dimensions. A place of contradictions and the absence of logic and the laws of the materium.
 
Outerversal realm that this 2-C is able to access. Mind you, this 2-C that... like... isn't 2-C outside of the warp. So anyone of comparable abilities should logically be able to go within with similar abilities. You know. Like. Dimensional Travel.
 
It's not that he isn't 2-C outside the warp. It's that he cannot fully manifest in the materium with his full power. Again, even if Vecna can get to the warp it means nothing, in fact it might just restrain him since he cannot interact with a place where space, time and causality don't exist on a conceptual level. Which gives Magnus a chance to beat Vecna again.
 
Yes it is. Look at his profile. The key is literally "In the Warp". Also, considering literally any significantly powerful being can manipulate the Warp in-verse, through the terrible magic of equalization, Vecna should be fine.
 
As I just told you It's not that he isn't 2-C outside the warp. It's that he cannot fully manifest in the materium with his full power which is why he has that key.

So because beings in 40k can exist and interact with the warp, Vecna can verse equalised? Ha, no. Beings in 40k can manipulate psychic energy which comes from the warp. Actually existing and interacting in the warp is a whole different ball game in which they need to shred all limitations and enter. Beings such as Magnus and Ahriman can do this. Prove and stop assuming Vecna also has the ability to shed limitations and interact with the warp, he doesn't have the acausality to do so. Verse equalisation doesn't grant him this at all. As I said before the warp doesn't grant Acausality.
 
So what you told me is he doesn't have 2-C potency outside the Warp. Meaning he isn't 2-C outside the Warp. jolly good.

Vecna can also manipulate psychic energy. Psychic classes are actually surprisingly common in D&D. Personal favorite is Psion, since you can just make everyone think they're a cripple, but that's just me. And... what? Magnus gains the Acausality inside of the Warp, that is what is on the profile lol.
 
Omg. No he doesn't have 2-C potency in the materium because he cannot manifest fully, he only uses immeasurably weaker avatars in the materium. That's common knowledge.

Magnus is Acausal for being able to interact with the warp itself. The warp doesn't grant him Acausality. Where does this idea come from anyway? His profile just says his Daemon state is Acausal, not inside the warp. Anywhere Magnus can manifest fully he is unbound by causality. I think you misunderstood, I thought I explained his Acausality perfectly.

The Warp is a place where cause and effect doesn't apply in the sligthest, maybe in personal Daemon realms where they added it but the Warp in general doesn't follow those rules. An example is where Slaanesh is said to have been formed in the Warp, however she simultaneously has existed before time and has never existed at all.

Interacting with the Warp gives Type 5 because the metaphyscial concepts of causality doesn't exist. Nowhere is it granted.
 
So. He doesn't have that potency outside the warp. Is exactly what I've been saying on this derailing point. I'm gonna pretend this wasn't a conversation.

Any old Daemon in the Warp has Type 5 Acausality. A similar being within the Warp would logically gain the same acausality due to the literal nature of the Warp.
 
His true form is 2-C. His avatars aren't. He is 2-C outside of the warp he just cannot manifest his true powers in the materium which is the mortal plane. Anywhere he can fully manifest he is 2-C.

Nope, you don't gain Acausality. You need to have the Acausality to interact with the Warp which Daemons happen to have. Acausality isn't forced on a being so he can comprehend the Warp, You either can or cannot.
 
So. he cannot manifest 2-C abilities in the material plane, i.e., outside of the warp. Moving on.

That simply isn't true. You may gain the ability to affect Acausals by doing that. But that wouldn't make you acausal.
 
Yeah he cannot manifest fully on the mortal plane. So even if Vecna kills his avatars it means nothing.

It is true. Can you prove being in the warp gives you the ability to affect acausals. Again for like the 5th time you need to be acausal to interact with the warp. It doesn't grant you the ability to affect acausals where in my quotes does it indicate that? I've explained the nature of the warp enough I don't know how you're extrapolating this from what I've given you.
 
what I said


you

You are confusing the ability to affect acausals with the action of actually being acausal.
 
You yourself said Vecna would gain Acausality.

"Any old Daemon in the Warp has Type 5 Acausality. A similar being within the Warp would logically gain the same acausality due to the literal nature of the Warp."

I was simply refuting that. I'm not confusing anything. You changed tac and now claiming he'll gain the ability to affect acausals and I'm asking how?
 
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