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Magi massive Revision

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Dread said:
The second scan is literally a counter to what you said. He never defeated the whole hierarchy, he even said it will take him “entirely”, since ya there are infinite gods.
And first scan never shows he actually destroyed the whole hierarchy either, a statement for that.
Click to expand...
It seems you guys miss understood me, I am not even interested if Sinbad defeat the Hierarchy. See my reply above
 
Lormac_CC said:
I just got to understand

But this isn't my agurment at all. I am not even interested on if Sinbad or David get a tier, I am interested on the cosmology. Infact let's forget David statements as they are nothing more that just supporting agurment, this is my agurment. The fact that there is a character capable of controlling Faith in such a way that Sinbad/David would fight against the the gods on the Hierarchy and would keep surpass them forever. That is my main point, not if Sinbad/David would start their journey. No god on the Hierarchy is capable of a such feat(manipulating fate that it affects the Hierarchy). To put this into perspective, Sinbad/Hierarchy would be like Alma torran while the character controlling this faith would be illah

It wasn't a plan, it was Faith
Click to expand...
I am really unsure how the cosmology will get low 1A if we assumed there is a God who is capable of controlling Faith so that they fight infinite Gods forever. There is no proof that there is a hierarchy outside of cosmology. Even tho, the scan you added there, does not clarify that there is a God who controls the whole hierarchy. The god is unknown, and the manga is finished. Let's say it is an open question and there are always different interpretations for that. It is unclear and would most likely take out of context.

There is also this scan that says there is an endless hierarchy of Gods. It never clarified there is someone above them.
In each world, there is a God who transcends it, and a higher will see the lower God as fiction. There are plenty of them… infinitely of them. There is no end.

I vote against it unless there is a scan that there is apparently a god or a character that lives in another hierarchy beyond this one.

And the argument that someone is controlling their faith/fate, I will leave it to @Pain_to12. It will be the unknown answer in my opinion.
Here are some scans regarding fate/faith arguments if you want
  1. scan
  2. scan
Dread said:
What is your guess on this @Lormac_CC ? Who chose him and why?
Click to expand...
@Pain_to12 You still did not answer this question and I will be honored if you do since I am confused, and it will also clear confusion to @Lormac_CC
 
Dread said:
@Pain_to12 I got a general question, is the sacred palace the entire hierarchy If I am understanding it right?
Click to expand...
Not at all
The Sacred palace is only pertaining to Illah’s layer. It was created using Illah’s powers.
Lormac_CC said:
The fact that there is a character capable of controlling Faith in such a way that Sinbad/David would fight against the the gods on the Hierarchy and would keep surpass them forever. That is my main point, not if Sinbad/David would start their journey. No god on the Hierarchy is capable of a such feat(manipulating fate that it affects the
Click to expand...
And you are not getting that such character do not exist, if they do David would have won his fight against Sinbad. As there is a very high power controlling everything that Sinbad cannot even fight against.
The cosmology is just High 1-B, your take a bit of a misconception
Dread said:
You still did not answer this question and I will be honored if you do since I am confused, and it will also clear confusion to
Click to expand...
Pain_to12 said:
A higher god can rewrite the script of a lower god, that’s all. It may have even been a god one layer above Illah.
Click to expand...
Either way it is not someone above the hierarchy there are infinite gods who could have thought about doing that
 
Pain_to12 said:
Either way it is not someone above the hierarchy there are infinite gods who could have thought about doing that
Click to expand...
So that god decided to control a fate that would affect a whole hierarchy and also affect himself? Mind elaborating in this one, because this is not clarified well and that's @Lormac_CC only argument. And to clarify to all other users!
 
Dread said:
So that god decided to control a fate that would affect a whole hierarchy and also affect himself? Mind elaborating in this one, because this is not clarified well and that's @Lormac_CC only argument. And to clarify to all other users!
Click to expand...
Explain what exactly??
Another person assumptions or head canons??

Or you can’t think to see that if there was a god up above controlling the said fate to defeat the entire hierarchy there was no way Sinbad would have won the fight??

It was not shown or stated means it did not happen.
I’m tired of explaining already now please drop it.

I will make my post of what the new justifications will be on the profile later on
I’m trying to get the scans
 
Dread said:
I am really unsure how the cosmology will get low 1A if we assumed there is a God who is capable of controlling Faith so that they fight infinite Gods forever.
Click to expand...
It would be 1-A since the character would view the Hierarchy as fiction
Dread said:
There is no proof that there is a hierarchy outside of cosmology
Click to expand...
I never said there was a Hierachy in this thread. I just said that there is likely a single god right above the Hierarchy at the end of fate.
Dread said:
Even tho, the scan you added there, does not clarify that there is a God who controls the whole hierarchy
Click to expand...
The very fact that a fate exist that affects the entire Hierarchy would be enough proof
Dread said:
The god is unknown, and the manga is finished.
Click to expand...
Yes, the god is unknown. If fact it might not be a god but I go with god since they are the only characters capable of controlling fate
Dread said:
There is also this scan that says there is an endless hierarchy of Gods. It never clarified there is someone above them.
In each world, there is a God who transcends it, and a higher will see the lower God as fiction. There are plenty of them… infinitely of them. There is no end.
Click to expand...
Well to be honest, the only character that would have known about it's existence would have either Sinbad/David since they would have seen fate from his perspective. David did give hints thought but we are still arguing on if we should take David for his words. Magi is so ****** but Faith likely controls a person's thought
Dread said:
I vote against it unless there is a scan that there is apparently a god or a character that lives in another hierarchy beyond this one
Click to expand...
Well, I can't force you to fully agree but the wiki has a possibly key which would be ok
 
Pain_to12 said:
Explain what exactly??
Another person assumptions or head canons??

Or you can’t think to see that if there was a god up above controlling the said fate to defeat the entire hierarchy there was no way Sinbad would have won the fight??

It was not shown or stated means it did not happen.
I’m tired of explaining already now please drop it.

I will make my post of what the new justifications will be on the profile later on
I’m trying to get the scans
Click to expand...
Pain, I am not here arguing with you. So don't say I am here trying to assume things. I told you to clarify from your side what those claims/scans mean. Also, why are you forcing me to drop something?
Likewise, ensurately, you are not one who can decide to stop us from arguing under this thread, so you have 0 right to tell me to drop it
Lormac_CC said:
It would be 1-A since the character would view the Hierarchy as fiction
Click to expand...
But there is no scan said so?
Lormac_CC said:
I never said there was a Hierachy in this thread. I just said that there is likely a single god right above the Hierarchy at the end of fate.
Click to expand...
It is just an unclear claim, I am sure. Why do you want to create a profile for someone who is even unknown in the manga? Also, as Pain said:
And you are not getting that such character do not exist, if they do David would have won his fight against Sinbad. As there is a very high power controlling everything that Sinbad cannot even fight against.
Click to expand...
Lormac_CC said:
Yes, the god is unknown. If fact it might not be a god but I go with god since they are the only characters capable of controlling fate
Click to expand...
If it is unknown, why we are even arguing over someone that is unknown? Just leave it. It will lead only to assumptions and unverified claims.
Lormac_CC said:
Well to be honest, the only character that would have known about it's existence would have either Sinbad/David since they would have seen fate from his perspective. David did give hints thought but we are still arguing on if we should take David for his words. Magi is so ****** but Faith likely controls a person's thought
Click to expand...
This is still an assumption and as Pain clarified before, David's words are only flowery language.
Lormac_CC said:
Well, I can't force you to fully agree but the wiki has a possibly key which would be ok
Click to expand...
You can force me to agree if you provided the scans that I asked for above. Then I will be on your side if those exist, which I doubly doubt.
 
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Pain_to12 said:
if they do David would have won his fight against Sinbad. As there is a very high power controlling everything that Sinbad cannot even fight against.
Click to expand...
Not exactly. That isn't how Faith/Singularity work. Singularities are capable of see Faith hence can choose if to follow it or not, they do not need any power to move away from it. Unlike other characters who are just in flow and move with it, Singularities are capable of seeing the flow and decide not to follow
 
@Lormac_CC @Pain_to12 @Antvasima I suggest a solution if both sides did not agree on tiering:
(I am neutral but if Lorc can't provide any absolute scans, then I am on Pain side)

Just add to cosmology tiering: low possible low 1A
 
Lormac_CC said:
I very well do agree with this, but again how do we address the Fact that there is a fate that affects the Hierarchy. We clearly can't place the feat on a lower god.
Click to expand...
Here is the answer from @Pain_to12 :
Pain_to12 said:
Either way it is not someone above the hierarchy there are infinite gods who could have thought about doing that
Click to expand...
 
Dread said:
This is still an assumption and as Pain clarified before, David's words are only flowery language.
Click to expand...
As for Faith controlling thought, there is actually a scan for that, as Singularities viewing faith from the perspective of who is controlling, there is also scan for that. For the flowery stuff, personally I don't agree but don't really want to argue about that since we will just go in circles
 
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Lormac_CC said:
As for Faith controlling thought, there is actually a scan for, as Singularities viewing faith from the perspective of who is controlling, there is also scan that. For the flowery stuff, personally I don't agree but don't really want to argue about that since we will just go in circles
Click to expand...
Is it mentioned who is that person who is controlling?
 
Antvasima said:
I personally agree with this view.
Click to expand...
Here is the new justifications, if you can call in a few people to look at it

1. For David
Attack Potency: At least Small Country level(Stronger than True form Arba), Country level with Extreme Magic | Low Complex Multiverse level (Merged with weakened Il Ilah, created a lower-order universe with mere thoughts) | Low Complex Multiverse level (Comparable to Sinbad, and took his place as the Guardian of the Sacred Palace), Likely higher with the Sacred Palace (Can use the Sacred Palace system, to breakthrough the higher layers, by sacrificing the rukh of a lower world and using the magic to destroy the upper barrier, The Sacred Palace can be used to steal the powers from other Gods. Sinbad and David used the system multiple times to swap places during their struggle)
Click to expand...

2. For Ugo
Attack Potency: Unknown | At least Small Country level (Stronger than before), likely Country level (Nearly killed Judar and fought Kougyoku Ren) | Low Complex Multiverse level (As the Guardian of the Sacred Palace he is completely transcendent of Aladdin's Multiverse of countless universes viewing them as fiction and being "omnipotent" over them and kept Il Ilah as a small pet in an aquarium, Likely higher with the Sacred Palace (Can use the Sacred Palace system, to breakthrough the higher layers, by sacrificing the rukh of a lower world and using the magic to destroy the upper barrier, The Sacred Palace can be used to steal the powers from other Gods. Sinbad and David used the system multiple times to swap places during their struggle)
Click to expand...

3. For Sinbad
Attack Potency: Unknown | At least Small Country level (When Sinbad was younger, he was capable of this degree of energy output), Country level with Extreme Magic | Low Complex Multiverse level (Took Ugo's position becoming the Guardian of the Sacred Palace), Likely higher with the Sacred Palace (Can use the Sacred Palace system, to breakthrough the higher layers, by sacrificing the rukh of a lower world and using the magic to destroy the upper barrier, The Sacred Palace can be used to steal the powers from other Gods. Sinbad and David used the system multiple times to swap places during their struggle)
Click to expand...


Now one last thing on their profile which is very wrong is the speed rating, I wanted to make a new CRT for it but since it is supposed to be uncontroversial we can tackle it here,
On their profile we have this

“FTL(Faster than Yamuraiha and should be faster than Alibaba) | Unknown (Outside of and beyond regular space-time continuums), Omnipresent in his territory”

Now they will not be unknown, because they exists outside regular space-time, they will just get
At least FTL.
Click to expand...
Seeing as they fought with FTL characters, and outside space-time does not grant a speed tier.

Also the omnipresent in their territory is wrong and it’s simply nigh omniscience.
They will lose that also unless there is proof of omnipresent? Which I cannot remember any as there are lots of anti-feat against omnipresence.
So their new justification will be

1. For David
Speed: FTL reactions and combat speed (Should be at least as fast as Arba) | At least FTL | At least FTL
Click to expand...

2. For Ugo
Speed: Unknown | FTL reactions and combat speed (Managed to react to/caught Judar off guard) | At least FTL
Click to expand...

3. For Sinbad
Speed: Sub-Relativistic via power-scaling (Intercepted a shot from a lightning gun) | FTL(Faster than Yamuraiha and should be faster than Alibaba) | At least FTL
Click to expand...

4. For magi Gods
Speed: Unknown
Click to expand...
 
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So I disagree with the Rating, not the entire thing though, the Sacred Palace should scale to illah, it was created from his energy stolen from him. David is illah.

illah casted down the Hierarchy = Low 1-C(5D). Ugo Low 1-C(6D), Solomon at least Low 1-C possibly 1-C(6D/possibly 7D), illah at least 1-C/possibly 1-C(7D/possibly 8D). The Fight in the the Sacred palace using the Hierarchy can't the used to scale any character.

As for the Speed, I do agree with most of it.
 
So should omnipresence also be removed for them?
 
Lormac_CC said:
If do remember correctly,it was due to the fact that they are Rukh
Click to expand...
I was searching for any thread related to omnipresence speed rating, and I don't find any. Btw, may I have scan for Rukh speed?
 
Dread said:
I was searching for any thread related to omnipresence speed rating, and I don't find any. Btw, may I have scan for Rukh speed?
Click to expand...
Omnipresence isn't speed it is just a state of being, Rukh is every where.
 
Lormac_CC said:
vsbattles.fandom.com

Magi Gods

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

This was the blog that gave them the rating
Click to expand...
Ngl, I have read everything and there is no statement that they are being everywhere.
Please change the first sentence since it is inaccurate to be exact. Rukh is home of souls, and in some context, it refers to “soul/spirit”. It is also the main source of “magoi”.


You should acknowledge that omnipresence is not only being everywhere, it is being everywhere and everywhen (in the past and in the present, and in the future).
 
Well, omnipresence can be either spatial, temporal, or both in combination.
 
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