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Magi massive Revision

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Dread said:
Ngl, I have read everything and there is no statement that they are being everywhere.
Please change the first sentence since it is inaccurate to be exact. Rukh is home of souls, and in some context, it refers to “soul/spirit”. It is also the main source of “magoi”.
Click to expand...
Personally, I not ready to argue on this but just a quick note, Rukh being the home of souls do have contradiction
 
Dread said:
Rukh is truly everywhere, ya magician need rukh to use them as weapons, I can agree. But it never proved they are everywhen.
Click to expand...
Well, Rukh itself exists in the spirit dimension, just as vector are there, Rukh is also there. Another thing is that illah dimension is the Rukh dimension, the Sacred palace also currently exists in the dimension
 
Lormac_CC said:
Well, Rukh itself exists in the spirit dimension, just as vector are there, Rukh is also there. Another thing is that illah dimension is the Rukh dimension, the Sacred palace also currently exists in the dimension
Click to expand...
Does not really prove that Rukh is everywhen and everywhere. Indeed, they are everywhere, but not everywhen.
More like nigh-omnipresent
 
If you want staff help, I am afraid that you need more elaborate explanations than that.
 
It’s kind of a bit long and lots of back and forth but here are the two major arguments and I think some other ones that are minor.
RatherClueless said:
Scaling Chain and Tiering

Sinbads and Davids Destiny (H 1-A) > Hierarchy of Gods (1-A+) > Il-Ilah (Low 1-A) > Il-Ilah's Rukh (H 1-B) > Sacred Palace (Low 1-C up to H 1-B); Sinbad and David (13 - 17D; 1-B) > Ugo (At least 5-D to 9-D; Low 1-C to 1-C) > David fused with Il-Ilah (Unquantifiable Dimensionality; 11-C)

Cosmology

  • The main Magi world is a multiverse at least 2-B in size.
  • Above this Multiverse is the dimension Il-Ilah's Rukh resided in, which was later turned into the Sacred Palace
  • There are both horizontal and a vertical dimensions.
  • Getting access to a horizontal dimension is just as difficult as breaking through a vertical one
  • The Sacred Palace has a order of gods
  • Each difference between these gods is the difference of an author and its work
  • The lowest one was the fusion of Il-Ilah's Rukh and David, creating a "lower order world", implying it is less than the main Magi world. In this state it was shown as even smaller than a normal human, fitting into the palm of their hand.
  • Above this is Ugo, reaching two whole ranks above David
  • Above that is Sinbad by one rank
  • Above that is David after moving up the ranks, continuously fighting with Sinbad for this position
  • Il-Ilah's "true self" exists as a Rukh-less being above this world, trying to regain its power and Rukh.
  • There is an infinite hierarchy of gods beyond Il-Ilah (It say "countless", but is clearly infinite for several reasons. Also, let's not act like those words aren't used interchangeably all the time)
  • There isn't a clear statement on the amount of parallel dimensions, but but going by how it is depicted and the fact that even just one universe can have several horizontal dimensions, I'll go out on a limb and say that it's probably infinite too (this one is up for debate though).
  • Horizontal dimensions can have completely different laws and even different flows of time.
  • Even though David can see his destiny of fighting all these gods, he does not know who chose him what what lies beyond destiny, implying that whoever or whatever gave him this destiny ranks above the infinite hierarchy.
Important things to mention

Sacred Palace Scaling

The difference between each god isn't 1 dimension. We love to assume that every reality fiction difference is just 1 dimension, but that is clearly not the case here. Each R/F difference has its own dimensions, Rukh, etc. The world David was creating was specifically stated to be "lower order" (as this was something he told Arba we can assume that it was in reference to their own world), yet it still had its own dimensions and even its own destiny. With this the R/F difference between each god should at least be 4-D.

The Sacred Palace is the very thing that keeps all the Rukh on the horizontal dimensions separate. This makes it at least 1-B to H 1-B, as connecting to just one of these dimensions requires the same magic you'd need to connect to a higher dimension.

Character Scaling

Sinbad and David: Even though they never actually went through with it, thanks to their destiny, they absolutely would have been able to. This is why they should be 1-B. (will become) 1-A+ over time. Their destiny itself would either be 1-A+ or H 1-A. This is under the assumption that the horizontal dimensions are in fact H 1-B. If not everything gets downgraded to H 1-B/L 1-A

Aladdin, Solomon and Hakuryuu/Belial: (At least) L 1-A, as Solomon could push Il-Ilah back into its dimension. Belial can send people into Il-Ilah. If horizontal dimensions aren't accepted as H 1-B this would be 1-B, even though I personally have quite some issues with this, as it would imply that one can break through the vertical walls by simply changing the hierarchy of the Sacred Palace a bunch of times.

Arba and Al Thamen: They don't scale in AP, but should have H 1-B range. If the horizontal walls aren't accepted this would be 1-B range.
Click to expand...
My reply/explanation was this
So here is an explanation of Magi cosmology and it’s workings.
So read through it then you if you feel the need to reply you can do that.

SACRED PALACE

Sacred palace was created using Illah’s rukh and Solomon’s Magoi

Contrary to notions, the major reason the SP exists is to separate Rukh of two dimensions in Illah’s layer. There are different colors of Rukh each dimensions have their own rukh SP Create a barrier to make sure they don’t mix.
Which was why Aladdin and Alibaba goal was to destroy the SP so the dimensions can mix together. Destroying the SP means destruction of the barriers keep the rukh of different colors from mixing together. Becoming something like the dark continent

Now there is absolutely no hierarchy within the SP, Ugo while playing around found another function he could use the SP for, swapping the hierarchy of gods.
But the stinger here is that, the hierarchy he is allowed to swap are those of gods within Illah’s layer or Illah himself. To swap that of higher gods he needs a large magic power, one that will sacrifice the entire Lower world.

ILLAH

Illah has his own dimension where he was sealedafter the SP was taken over. But as he is still the god of the layer everyone who dies returns to Illah(his dimension)

BARRIERS

There are two barriers
The horizontal barriers and vertical barriers

The vertical barriers are transcendent, or rather the gods of the higher one transcends the god of the lower one and views him as a author and a book.
The layer itself is still just like any other layer and has humans in it but the gods of an Higher layer transcends that of a lower one.

While the horizontal barrier is just the barrier separating different worlds(dimensions) in the same layer and not transcendent. So each layer has other dimensions. And the numbers are unknown but they are likely few
And even connection of this barriers also requiresa great deal of magic also but not to the point the entire layer gets destroyed

GODS ABOVE THE ILLAH’S LAYER

These gods are unaffected by the SP hence the SP cannot swap their own hierarchy except through sacrificing the rukh of the entire world
In fact, it was said otherwise that these gods are in charge and can control what happens to the SP and the lower worlds and what to do with it.

The only way to reach these gods is by sacrificingthe rukh of a lower world and using the magic to destroy the upper barrier hence ascending upward. Sinbad planned to keep doing this for eternity
Now Sinbad was trying to use the SP to return everyone to rukh so he can gain enough magic power to do this.

SINBAD VS DAVID

First they both lose their 1-B key on their profile.
They got 1-B off the scan of Ugo saying they rearranged the hierarchy multiple times but the context of these statement his Sinbad and David struggle where they swap the order of who controls the SP multiple times and they were never swapping the order of any gods above them just between them, just who becomes the guardian of the SP.

CONFLUENCE
  • There is an infinite/countless/endless hierarchy in magi
  • Illah is one of the gods on that hierarchy his number on the first floor while the start of gods(Illah) dimensionality in magi is unknown (which frankly is what caused a lot of controversies) but this is something that will be handled later on, we will find a reasonable number based on information provided
  • The SP was created using Illah’s rukh and Solomon’s magic and was mainly for separating the rukh of different color
  • The SP allows the swapping of gods inside the SP and also gods above by sacrificing the rukh of lower world
  • The gods higher than Illah are not affected by the SP unless through sacrificing of the lower world rukh and can decide what happens to the SP

And that will be all
Click to expand...
Lormac_CC said:
So the Hierarchy of god thing, after going through it over again. It makes no sense that it is within horizontal. It was called illah's, this is because illah is at the top of the part of the Hierarchy that can be rearranged by Ugo. Pain_to12, you said something along the line of with enough Rukh, Ugo should be able to change the order of the God above illah, this is impossible considering that a little amount of Rukh in illah world can create a lower order world(Dimension with multiple space-time), also the nature of the verse doesn't allow that. So yeah agree with the Vertical. So I don't if this should be treated like I/O where anything lower than base layer = tier 11.

As for the low 1-A, it is really hard to debunk as it is impossible for a lower god to control the fate of a higher god, who ever wrote the script and chose David is above the Hierarchy as the script affects the entire Hierarchy. So things like will go beyond infinite battle/gods and reach the end of fate, or that we will see what is beyond destiny, aren't really flowery, also viewing High 1-B as fiction will equal 1-A rather than low 1-A.
Click to expand...
Pain_to12 said:
Yes agreed with this, this was going to Be one of my points in an upcoming CRT

Okay read this post properly, and I still don’t see how Illah is above ugo after he took the SP and casted him down

This is frankly head canon
1. Illah is at the top of the hierarchy when he was explicitly stated to be the lowest on the hierarchy
2. Created a lower order world = multiple space times, what do you think that multiple space times mean?
3. Within Illah’s world or the said hierarchy R/F do not exist
Read the manga again and we literally have 6-Cs characters duking it out with gods.
Anyway that’s for my upcoming CRT and it’s irrelevant here

Can you really stop with the baseless claims?? It is getting tiring.
David made a flowery statements, nothing in that statement holds true or means a thing.
Click to expand...
Then the OP conceded on those points about a 1-A hierarchy and I made this new justifications for the profile
Post in thread 'Magi massive Revision'
https://vsbattles.com/threads/magi-massive-revision.135054/post-4873455
 
Low Complex Multiverse level (Merged with weakened Il Ilah, created a lower-order universe with mere thoughts)

David didn't merge with weakened illah. David merge with illah and became illah. I believe this low 1-C is 5D considering this version of illah is lower than Ugo

Low Complex Multiverse level (Comparable to Sinbad, and took his place as the Guardian of the Sacred Palace).

David isn't comparable to Sinbad at all, his rating and justification should come directly from illah. David is superior to Ugo/ Solomon. David is illah. As I pointed out in my Faith explanation, even while Ugo was the Guardian of the Sacred palace, illah controlled both him and Solomon, Sinbad also said the same thing. illah was above them all till Ugo casted him down. Ugo, during his confrontation with illah, compared himself to illah as human to god and character to Author just as he did Sinbad.


Likely higher with the Sacred Palace (Can use the Sacred Palace system, to breakthrough the higher layers, by sacrificing the rukh of a lower world and using the magic to destroy the upper barrier, The Sacred Palace can be used to steal the powers from other Gods. Sinbad and David used the system multiple times to swap places during their struggle

At first, I said the Sacred palace should scale to illah but this is kind of wrong, it should be scaled to no one. The sacred palace has displayed very inconsistent feats. Believe it or not the Sacred palace couldn't affect the strongest species of Alma torran, it couldn't even affect illah Rukh or anything thing that had to do with Alma torran, now illah was casted down. It wasn't the Sacred palace power that brought him down but rather Ugo magic which is basically just a formula which can even overwhelm the Sacred palace and lead to it's destruction. The Sacred palace is nothing but a tool depending on the magic used, it can do crazy things, so yeah possibly higher with the Sacred palace is good.

Why did you add David and Sinbad using it, it should be removed as it is not really needed, also I don't believe they were swapping places with each other, they where kept reducing their order not that this is important.

Summary for David.
David should be Scaled to illah, illah is superior to Ugo/ Solomon. Solomon is at least 6D possibly 7D. illah should be at least 7D possibly 8D, David should scale directly to that, then 5D when casted down the Hierarchy
 
David isn't comparable to Sinbad at all,
Click to expand...
his Sinbad andDavid struggle where they swap the order of who controls the SP multiple times
Click to expand...
Lormac_CC said:
At first, I said the Sacred palace should scale to illah but this is kind of wrong, it should be scaled to no one. The sacred palace has displayed very inconsistent feats. Believe it or not the Sacred palace couldn't affect the strongest species of Alma torran, it couldn't even affect illah Rukh or anything thing that had to do with Alma torran, now illah was casted down. It wasn't the Sacred palace power that brought him down but rather Ugo magic which is basically just a formula which can even overwhelm the Sacred palace and lead to it's destruction. The Sacred palace is nothing but a tool depending on the magic used, it can do crazy things, so yeah possibly higher with the Sacred palace is good.
Click to expand...
There were consistent low 1-C feats with the SP and that’s why it is low 1-C and it can be possibly higher,
I really don’t get what you are doing and I’m really tired at this point
The said formula from Ugo requires him to use to SP, what’s your point????
Lormac_CC said:
David didn't merge with weakened illah. David merge with illah and became illah. I believe this low 1-C is 5D considering this version of illah is lower than Ugo
Click to expand...
A version of Illah lower than Ugo is the weakened Illah, so again
What?
 
Sir_Ovens said:
Why is High 1-A on the table and why is Low 1-C being argued instead?
Click to expand...
Just forget about the High 1-A, the verse is usually interpreted differently by different people. You can get low 2-C all the way the High 1-A, but we choose to settle with Low-1-C to 1-B
 
Sir_Ovens said:
This is a lot to take in but I'll try.

Why is High 1-A on the table and why is Low 1-C being argued instead?
Click to expand...
Tbh I don’t know
So far H-1A has been head canon and fan interpretation about another hierarchy outside the stated hierarchy in the verse

Lormac_CC said:
Just forget about the High 1-A, the verse is usually interpreted differently by different people. You can get low 2-C all the way the High 1-A, but we choose to settle with Low-1-C to 1-B
Click to expand...
No we did not choose to settle, that was what we were shown and told.
An endless hierarchy, with each god above having a R>F above the lower world god.
 
Pain_to12 said:
There were consistent low 1-C feats with the SP and that’s why it is low 1-C
Click to expand...
What consistent feat did the Sacred palace show that it should be used to scale characters, trying to use Sinbad and David fight to justify that David is comparable to Sinbad is just wrong when one can reduce the stat of the other. It is just like making a 1-A character low 1-C because he lost to low 1-C character would could reduce his stat to low 1-C. illah was shown and constantly stated to be above every god in his layer. Also I Don't care if you want scale David to Sinbad because a fight that can't be used to scale, but David should have a key that scale to illah, not just weakened illah but illah at full strength
Pain_to12 said:
The said formula from Ugo requires him to use to SP,
Click to expand...
Yes it uses the sacred palace magoi, but that doesn't mean the Sacred palace is what is performing the trick, it is Ugo magic formula, the Sacred palace is just a magic tool filled with illah magoi, even magicians in Alma torran received Magoi directly from illah. The Sacred palace shouldn't be used to justify the rating of any god, it is just a magic tool created by Ugo
 
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Lormac_CC said:
What consistent feat did the Sacred palace show that it should be used to scale characters, trying to use Sinbad and David fight to justify that David is comparable to Sinbad is just wrong when one can reduce the stat of the other. It is just like making a 1-A character low 1-C because he lost to low 1-C character would could reduce his stat to low 1-C. illah was shown and constantly stated to be above every god in his layer. Also I Don't care if you want scale David to Sinbad because a fight that can't be used to scale, but David should have a key that scale to illah, not just weakened illah but illah at full strength
Click to expand...
Well we have a statement that said with the SP David can create a whole new universe, that’s a feat for the SP

And if a 1-A character lost to a solid low 1-C, that 1-A rating is wrong in the first place. Since the said low 1-C character already reduced his stats from 1-A to low 1-C meaning he is also now just low 1-C.

Illah was shown and stated to be above until he got negged by Ugo

Also Illah at full strength is still low 1-C
Lormac_CC said:
Yes it uses the sacred palace magoi, but that doesn't mean the Sacred palace is what is performing the trick, it is Ugo magic formula, the Sacred palace is just a magic tool filled with illah magoi, even magicians in Alma torran received Magoi directly from illah. The Sacred palace shouldn't be used to justify the rating of any god, it is just a magic tool created by Ugo
Click to expand...
Think of it as a weapon
“9-B physically, 9-A with his guns”

This is getting funny and annoying
So you are saying we should not give a gun it’s rating because you still need someone to load it and pull the trigger??
Common like what??

Ugo needs the SP to move up layers the only thing he created was a formula. The SP is low 1-C, nothing more.
It’s like saying a certain gem that contains enough power to bust through a low 1-C layer should it be low 1-C cause a magician was the one that created the spell that utilizes the gem powers to bust through the layers.

At this point I’d probably stop replying you, it’s all misinterpretation of everything
 
Pain_to12 said:
Illah was shown and stated to be above until he got negged by Ugo

Also Illah at full strength is still low 1-C
Click to expand...
So illah, showed to controlling the Faith of Solomon/Ugo(gods), Transcend them on a Creator to creation level (R/F), and this illah is still on pair with Ugo at full strength. I can't even make this up
Pain_to12 said:
And if a 1-A character lost to a solid low 1-C, that 1-A rating is wrong in the first place. Since the said low 1-C character already reduced his stats from 1-A to low 1-C meaning he is also now just low 1-C.
Click to expand...
Yes, but he will still have a 1-A key
Pain_to12 said:
The SP is low 1-C, nothing more.
Click to expand...
The SP can't have a rating, it is very inconsistent.
Pain_to12 said:
Ugo needs the SP to move up layers the only thing he created was a formula. The SP is low 1-C, nothing more.
It’s like saying a certain gem that contains enough power to bust through a low 1-C layer should it be low 1-C cause a magician was the one that created the spell that utilizes the gem powers to bust through the layers.
Click to expand...
Who is talking about breaking through layers? The Magic that changes position of gods isn't what is used to break layers, breaking layers deals with Magoi.
Pain_to12 said:
Well we have a statement that said with the SP David can create a whole new universe, that’s a feat for the SP
Click to expand...
What other statement. The sacred palace can't even affect the strongest creation of illah.
 
Lormac_CC said:
The SP can't have a rating, it is very inconsistent.
Click to expand...
Let me know the inconsistencies please mention them, all of them
Lormac_CC said:
What other statement. The sacred palace can't even affect the strongest creation of illah.
Click to expand...
The fact that David your said 1-C cannot even create a universe on its own without the SP, already shows SP >>>> David. But you want to rate that David over the SP?

But please what is the strongest creation of Illah the SP cannot affect
 
Please write down precisely what we should do here, Pain_to12, so we can get some conclusions here soon.
 
Pain_to12 said:
The fact that David your said 1-C cannot even create a universe on its own without the SP, already shows SP >>>> David. But you want to rate that David over the SP?
Click to expand...
David only needed the Rukh/magoi of the Sacred palace. In Magi, Rukh produces Magoi, Rukh is equal for every one, same is magoi, so there is nothing like higher Dimensional Rukh or magoi, the main difference is the quantity and size of god, this amount of magoi won't complete a spell in illah world but it can create a lower order world with it's own universe and life. David could create a world and he did create a lower order world, but creating a normal world would be impossible as he doesn't have the Rukh to perform such a feat, The Sacred palace is running on illah Rukh
Pain_to12 said:
Let me know the inconsistencies please mention them, all of them
Click to expand...
Couldn't affect the strongest species of Alma torran, can't affect illah Rukh. Can't affect thing from Alma torran
 
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Antvasima said:
Please write down precisely what we should do here, Pain_to12, so we can get some conclusions here soon.
Click to expand...
This post here is the summary of the arguments

Post in thread 'Magi massive Revision'
https://vsbattles.com/threads/magi-massive-revision.135054/post-4895449

And here is what I propose


1. For David
Attack Potency: At least Small Country level (Stronger than True form Arba), Country level with Extreme Magic | Low Complex Multiverse level (Merged with weakened Il Ilah, created a lower-order universe with mere thoughts) | Low Complex Multiverse level(Comparable to Sinbad, and took his place as the Guardian of the Sacred Palace), Likely higher with the Sacred Palace (Can use the Sacred Palace system, to breakthrough the higher layers, by sacrificing the rukh of a lowerworld and using the magic to destroy the upper barrier, The Sacred Palace can be used to steal the powers from other Gods. Sinbad and David used the system multiple times to swap places during their struggle)
Click to expand...

2. For Ugo
Attack Potency: Unknown | At least Small Country level (Stronger than before), likely Country level (Nearly killed Judar and fought Kougyoku Ren) | Low Complex Multiverse level (As the Guardian of the Sacred Palace he is completely transcendent of Aladdin's Multiverse of countless universes viewing them as fiction and being "omnipotent" over them and kept Il Ilah as a small pet in an aquarium, Likely higher with the Sacred Palace (Can use the Sacred Palace system, to breakthrough the higher layers, by sacrificing the rukh of a lower world and using the magic to destroy the upper barrier, The Sacred Palace can be used to steal the powers from other Gods. Sinbad and David used the system multiple times to swap places during their struggle)
Click to expand...

3. For Sinbad
Attack Potency: Unknown | At least Small Country level (When Sinbad was younger, he was capable of this degree of energy output), Country level with Extreme Magic | Low Complex Multiverse level (Took Ugo's position becoming the Guardian of the Sacred Palace), Likely higher with the Sacred Palace (Can use the Sacred Palace system, to breakthrough the higher layers, by sacrificing the rukh of a lower world and using the magic to destroy the upper barrier, The Sacred Palace can be used to steal the powers from other Gods. Sinbad and David used the system multiple times to swap places during their struggle)
Click to expand...


Now one last thing on their profile which is very wrong is the speed rating, I wanted to make a new CRT for it but since it is supposed to be uncontroversial we can tackle it here,
On their profile we have this

“FTL(Faster than Yamuraiha and should be faster than Alibaba) | Unknown (Outside of and beyond regular space-time continuums), Omnipresent in his territory”

Now they will not be unknown, because they exists outside regular space-time, they will just get
At least FTL.
Click to expand...
Seeing as they fought with FTL characters, and outside space-time does not grant a speed tier.

Also the omnipresent in their territory is wrong and it’s simply nigh omniscience.
They will lose that also unless there is proof of omnipresent? Which I cannot remember any as there are lots of anti-feat against omnipresence.
So their new justification will be

1. For David
Speed: FTL reactions and combat speed (Should be at least as fast as Arba) | At least FTL | At least FTL
Click to expand...

2. For Ugo
Speed: Unknown | FTL reactions and combat speed (Managed to react to/caught Judar off guard) | At least FTL
Click to expand...

3. For Sinbad
Speed: Sub-Relativistic via power-scaling (Intercepted a shot from a lightning gun) | FTL(Faster than Yamuraiha and should be faster than Alibaba) | At least FTL
Click to expand...

4. For magi Gods
Speed: Unknown
Click to expand...
 
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