Madara isn't an astronaut

[Damage3245]

> ....Damage Kaguya is still the ten tails. Ten tails is Kaguya. Or r u asking did she fight them in her Ten tails form, if so then no she didn't.

I just remembered a flashback of their fight in the manga and it only showed Hags and Hamura fighting the 10-Tails.

BTW, the 10-Tails currently gets its speed rating from Hagoromo and Hamura, so something appears to be a bit circular here.

 

[Omimi]

both Kep and Gwynbleiddd calculated how far away Madara was from the moon

yet some of us still going to argue so we cant do anything about that

 

[Damage3245]

@Omimi; I believe the whole point of the OP is that the current calc is faulty.

 

[MostPowerfull]

I did not understand the point itself! In a panel, you really can see the mountains in the background, but a few panels later, we can not see them any more, while Madara says she is going to approach the Moon.
This does not invalidate the fact that Madara has gone to the Moon, in fact, there is nothing much in the scene.

The fact that Shinjuu "grows up to the moon" seems to me just a figure of speech to say that it has grown.
Madara get close to the Moon and the distance it has traveled is simply given by the Angsize. This is consistent with the fact that he has said that he needs to approach the Moon and how close he has come is given by the angsize. If you are going to question the distance given by Angsize, because the author may not have had the intention, then this same argument holds true for all angsizes.

About the helmet ... Inconsistency and irrelevant! It would take several hours to reach the land, even if Madara was a few hundred miles high. Unless someone says that Naruto and Sasuke spent several hours destroying the meteors.

We still have the fact that Sasuke has gone to the place where Madara was before (after cutting the meteors [and that yes, can be argued as an artistic inconsistency]) and from there he could not even see Madara , which indicates that Madara was very far , so far that it could not be seen.

There is no contradiction, inconsistency or a really relevant argument, in Madara having come close to the Moon.

 

[BlackeJan]

If what Omini posted is true then that just debunks everything in the OP

 

[AstralKing7]

> ....Damage Kaguya is still the ten tails. Ten tails is Kaguya. Or r u asking did she fight them in her Ten tails form, if so then no she didn't.

I just remembered a flashback of their fight in the manga and it only showed Hags and Hamura fighting the 10-Tails.

BTW, the 10-Tails currently gets its speed rating from Hagoromo and Hamura, so something appears to be a bit circular here.

...all of that was retconned by the Movie and Light novel Damage

No circular reason what's so ever on the profiles for Hag, Hamura, and The Shinju. Hamura doesn't even scale to the ten tails and Hag scales to Kaguya

 

[Qawsedf234]

I did not understand the point itself! In a panel, you really can see the mountains in the background, but a few panels later, we can not see them any more, while Madara says she is going to approach the Moon.

You can't see the background because every panel afterwards is a zoom in shoot on Madara or focuses on the moon. There's no implication of him flying any further after ripping off his head piece in Chapter 676.

Madara get close to the Moon and the distance it has traveled is simply given by the Angsize.

The angsizing is based on extremely inconsistent art and the typical giant moon in fiction.

About the helmet ... Inconsistency and irrelevant!

Its neither. Like the background panel and the anime it gives more evidence that Madara did not fly as high as the calc suggested.

We still have the fact that Sasuke has gone to the place where Madara was before (after cutting the meteors [and that yes, can be argued as an artistic inconsistency])

This has been brought up before and rejected again. The debris near the Susano'o are from the same meteors he sent at the Shinobi army. Once again its just the artist drawing a big moon to emphasize the IT that was just casted on it.

There is no contradiction, inconsistency or a really relevant argument, in Madara having come close to the Moon.

There are tons of inconsistencies with him flying that far.

 

[MostPowerfull]

"You can't see the background because every panel afterwards is a zoom in shoot on Madara or focuses on the moon. There's no implication of him flying any further after ripping off his head piece in Chapter 676."

Therefore, you can not say that he did not come close to the Moon, as he himself says. Soon we have the angsize + statements, against the headcanon. Choose what you want.

" The angsizing is based on extremely inconsistent art and the typical giant moon in fictio. "

Does not matter. This doubt still falls on all angsizes. Was it the intention of the author or not? If you can not answer, your argument is useless.

" Its neither. Like the background panel and the anime it gives more evidence that Madara did not fly as high as the calc suggested. "

No. We have the angsize and a Madara phrase indicating that it came close to the Moon, that being the basis of the calculation.
The counterargument basically has a panel before it starts to move and removes its head guard + the GUESS that it has not flown away based on an inconsistency and in that past panel.

" This has been brought up before and rejected again. The debris near the Susano'o are from the same meteors he sent at the Shinobi army. Once again its just the artist drawing a big moon to emphasize the IT that was just casted on it. "

Yes and as I said ... This can be argued about being an artistic inconsistency, in case you have not seen it, I said just that.
Although, this still proves that Madara is very far from there, which alone, debunked her claim about Madara not to have left there or still be around us and also debunked the inconsistency of her head protector falling on the land.

" There are tons of inconsistencies with him flying that far. "

Bring these dozens of inconsistencies to us. Because what I see is literally ignoring what Madara says, Angsize himself, while talking about the headband, which is comic and was debunked by Kep and others.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Therefore, you can not say that he did not come close to the Moon, as he himself says. Soon we have the angsize + statements, against the headcanon. Choose what you want.

We have angsizing based on inconsistent art and a statement that can applied to just about any justification. Saying he flew to the moon requires more headcanon than saying he just flew high in-atmosphere.

Does not matter.

What? It matters a lot as inconsistent art will get inconsistent results. You can angsize the telephone pole Itachi was on to be thousands of kilometers tall based on how big the artist made the moon. Its for emphasis not for a legitmate showing of flight speed.

The counterargument basically has a panel before it starts to move and removes its head guard + the GUESS that it has not flown away based on an inconsistency and in that past panel.

He has no motion lines nor the implication he flew anymore.

Yes and as I said ... This can be argued about being an artistic inconsistency, in case you have not seen it, I said just that.

If you agree the art is consistently inconsistent then why do you bacm the claim that Madara flew to the moon? It has no hard basis and has two legitmate in-universe showings that completely contradict the idea.

Bring these dozens of inconsistencies to us.

They've all been brought up already. The background panel, the headband falling, inconsistent displays of size, and the anime showing he didn't fly as high as suggested by the calc.

Also where did you get "dozens" from?

 

[BlackeJan]

If what Omini posted is true then that just debunks everything in the OP

 

[AKM sama]

I mean the author is not mad. If he wanted to show that Madara was really close to the moon, he would've drawn a more realistic view of the Earth that's visible from space, like he drew in one of the panel which Qawsed linked. The fact that he drew mountains shows that Madara wasn't that far in space, methinks.

 

[MostPowerfull]

" We have angsizing based on inconsistent art and a statement that can applied to just about any justification. Saying he flew to the moon requires more headcanon than saying he just flew high in-atmosphere. "

Not when we have the picture. And no ... There is no inconsistency in having come close to the Moon, there is nothing too much about it.
It is his word against what we saw in the manga and the PHRASE of the Madara, which helps justify the angsize in the manga.
Soon, your headcanon is refuted by the manga.

" What? It matters a lot as inconsistent art will get inconsistent results. You can angsize the telephone pole Itachi was on to be thousands of kilometers tall based on how big the artist made the moon. Its for emphasis not for a legitmate showing of flight speed. "

I do not care at all for the inconsistent arts that have nothing to do with the feat in question. For this very reason, the Land of Naruto has a few hundred kilometers.
So ... Was it the author's intention or not? If you can not answer me, your argument is useless.

" He has no motion lines nor the implication he flew anymore. "

He himself said and we have the image itself, which is sustained by the statement. Try again!

" If you agree the art is consistently inconsistent then why do you bacm the claim that Madara flew to the moon? It has no hard basis and has two legitmate in-universe showings that completely contradict the idea. "

Because his sentence justifies the angsize and Sasuke could not see him from where he was. Simple!

" They've all been brought up already. The background panel, the headband falling, inconsistent displays of size, and the anime showing he didn't fly as high as suggested by the calc.

Also where did you get "dozens" from? "

Background panel has been rebutted.
The head guard has been refuted (by me, by Kep, and by others) and is comical.
Anime is irrelevant, we can draw conclusions from the manga. And he even moves in Anime, as we see him do in the manga.
And inconsistencies irrelevant to the feat are just that ... Irrelevant!

Oops, sorry ... Bring the thousands of pounds into inconsistencies, please. So far, it's just the headcanon speaking louder!

 

[MostPowerfull]

@AKSama

Except for the fact that this image is before it begins to move. After that, we have a statement that supports the use of angsize.

It was all I said before ...

 

[Sekkonds.]

We still have the fact that Sasuke has gone to the place where Madara was before (after cutting the meteors [and that yes, can be argued as an artistic inconsistency]) and from there he could not even see Madara , which indicates that Madara was very far , so far that it could not be seen.

That's false,because in the next panel you see the falling meteorites though. With a movement line indicating sasuke's original postion that shows he was extremely close to ground

And "he couldn't see madara" argument is just stupid,he was looking to the moon as he was shooked that IT was activited..nothing to suggest that he was looking for madara

 

[MostPowerfull]

@Sekkonds

The meteors were within 3000km of the ground, when Madara created them and made them fall. How close was it to the ground?

Madara was in front of the Moon. If he did not see Madara, almost from the same position where Madara would be ... How could he not see Madara, starting from Qwasedf's argument, especially when they can see him create meteors 3000km away? How could Sasuke not see him, if he would still be around where he was before?

Headcanon, Headcanon, Headcanon ....

 

[USklaverei]

If we take this Sasuke scene and use angsize, it looks like it's also close to the moon, so the angsize argument is worthless if the art is not consistent.

 

[MostPowerfull]

In the other we have where he was, a little above the meteors. So we have a post-image that refutes inconsistent art.

Here we do not have it, we have a picture before it starts moving and where it ended and we have a statement from it coming close to moon. We have Sasuke standing above the meteors cut off, thousands of kilometers above the ground and not even seeing Madara.

 

[Lorenzo.r.2nd]

i would like to say two things here, btw, just to keep them in mind. first one is simple and obvious- naruto's moon is not our moon, and his earth is not our earth. for all we know, the cycle could easily make the moon get as close as that during the night, and if we take into account the fact that neither the moon nor earth are of matching sizes to our own, 'debunking' this could be just as hard as 'proving' it.... secondly, madara used one of the show's most powerful jutsu (characters at his lvl can move the moon, so this is semi backed up by toneri doing something similar) which uses the moon as the literal conductor. one could easily, easily assume the one of the jutsu's effects or processes was that the moon couldve been pulled closer to the earth.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Not when we have the picture.

What picture? Of the moon with no consistency in size?

PHRASE of the Madara, which helps justify the angsize in the manga.

Approach just means to get closer to. The Andromda Galaxy is approaching the Milky Way and meteors millions of kilometers away are stated by NASA as approaching Earth. Madara approaching the moon can mean anything you want it to. The background panel showcasing visible mountains, the anime, and the headband however, are things that serve as hard evidence against him flying that high

I do not care at all for the inconsistent arts that have nothing to do with the feat in question

You should care because its those inconsistenices that gave the calc such a high result. If the art is inconsistent and changes wildely from panel to panel it shouldn't be used as the evidence for speed.

For this very reason, the Land of Naruto has a few hundred kilometers. So ... Was it the author's intention or not? If you can not answer me, your argument is useless.

I mean, I would answer you if I knew the question you were asking. Are you asking if the Frost was supposed to be big or something? Because as The Last showed its like Ohio or Bulgeria sized.

He himself said and we have the image itself, which is sustained by the statement. Try again!

The guns you're sticking with are

• A statement that is vague enough to support my arugment as much as yours

• A image you've admitted was inconsistent before.

Okay then

Because his sentence justifies the angsize

It doesn't with the three pieces of counter evidence presented earlier in this thread

Sasuke could not see him from where he was.

Sasuke was focusing on the moon and even with the in-atmosphere presumption would still be dozens of kilometers away from Madara. Sasuke not seeing him means nothing.

Background panel has been rebutted.

It hasn't in my view.

The head guard has been refuted (by me, by Kep, and by others)

None of them refruted it. I dropped the arugment last time because I agreed that it wasn't the time for a downgrade. Not because they changed my opinion or debunked it.

 

[MostPowerfull]

So we have 2 options:

• Madara came close to the moon, as the picture shows and is supported by the statement.
• Madara moved above him and, ignoring what we see in the manga, was an unknown distance from the Moon.

If they can prove where he was after that, I'm fine with the downgrade, upgrade or whatever.
Anyway, I'm just going to laugh at the other headcanons.

 

[Lorenzo.r.2nd]

i would like to say two things here, btw, just to keep them in mind. first one is simple and obvious- naruto's moon is not our moon, and his earth is not our earth. for all we know, the cycle could easily make the moon get as close as that during the night, and if we take into account the fact that neither the moon nor earth are of matching sizes to our own, 'debunking' this could be just as hard as 'proving' it.... secondly, madara used one of the show's most powerful jutsu (characters at his lvl can move the moon, so this is semi backed up by toneri doing something similar) which uses the moon as the literal conductor. one could easily, easily assume the one of the jutsu's effects or processes was that the moon couldve been pulled closer to the earth.

 

[Kepekley23]

The headband thing is still completely worthless as an argument and needs to be dropped regardless of what you believe, unless people are going to try to argue that Madara was only a few kilometers up in the air despite every single chapter out there together with common sense to prove otherwise.

 

[USklaverei]

But here we also have images that refute this.

Madara plucks his horn and falls , soon after it is shown several mountains being shown behind him and he is facing the moo.Further on is shown the horn falling on the parchment .

Basically, there are several inconsistencies and contradictions that depreciate this.

 

[Qawsedf234]

It's at least supplementary evidence that backs the idea he wasn't intended to be in outerspace. Even if you disagree on it being used as direct counter evidence.

 

[Kepekley23]

Anyway, won't bother arguing on this thread. Y'all can draw your own conclusions on the matter.

 

[Sekkonds.]

Unless people are going to try to argue that Madara was only a few kilometers up in the air

That's the whole point actually

 

[AstralKing7]

Or maybe just maybe Kishi doesn't have a good perception on time and doesn't realize how long it actually takes for the forehead protector to fall. I find it funny that despite the context shown people believe for some reason that we should ignore the plot and apply real world logic to that scene. Obviously wis is going on here

 

[Kepekley23]

That's the whole point actually

That Madara was only 5 kilometers or so up? If so, then I guess this hardly warrants discussion on whether it should be closed or not!

/s

 

[MostPowerfull]

" What picture? Of the moon with no consistency in size? "

Yes ... We will not forget the statement, please.

" Approach just means to get closer to. The Andromda Galaxy is approaching the Milky Way and meteors millions of kilometers away are stated by NASA as approaching Earth. Madara approaching the moon can mean anything you want it to. The background panel showcasing visible mountains, the anime, and the headband however, are things that serve as hard evidence against him flying that high "

No one cares when I have an art and a statement that supports it.
Everything you say, that does not directly refute art and its support and consistency (as we see in Sasuke's image), is simply irrelevant and is also a headcanon!
Try again!

" You should care because its those inconsistenices that gave the calc such a high result. If the art is inconsistent and changes wildely from panel to panel it shouldn't be used as the evidence for speed. "

Not when you have a stated support behind it ... Ignore this, it will not change anything!

" I mean, I would answer you if I knew the question you were asking. Are you asking if the Frost was supposed to be big or something? Because as The Last showed its like Ohio or Bulgeria sized. "

What? I understood nothing.

"The guns you're sticking with are

• A statement that is vague enough to support my arugment as much as yours
• A image you've admitted was inconsistent before.

Okay the"

A statement that holds the image itself, and thus, sustains the angsize. As I said, associating the inconsistencies that are not in the feat and ignoring the support, will not help you at all.

" It doesn't with the three pieces of counter evidence presented earlier in this thread. "

Yes ... 2 refuted with mastery and efficiency (Naruto and Sasuke stay hours to destroy meteors.. LMFAO!) and another irrelevant to the feat.

" None of them refruted it. I dropped the arugment last time because I agreed that it wasn't the time for a downgrade. Not because they changed my opinion or debunked it. "

Use a pair of glasses.
Again, wear a pair of glasses or common sense. Comic, as Naruto and Sasuke spent hours destroying some meteors ... Tell me this story, I would like to laugh a little!

 

[Lorenzo.r.2nd]

i agree with astral... wtf does kishi know about physics?? the guy draws for a living. his smartest move was prolly obito pretending to be madara. this shit is about as inconsistent as kurama's size

 

[Xulrev]

@MostPowerfull

You're pretty flippant about disregarding anyone who disagrees with you and insulting their ability to read as evidenced by your 'wear a pair of glasses' comment and continued accusations of headcanon in spite of repeated and numerous scans/evidence given; I'd highly encourage you to tone down the personal insults when your argumentation is shown to be insufficient and you can only rely on 'irrelevant' as a defense.

Let your words speak for themselves, and stop being aggressive, honestly.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Yes ... We will not forget the statement, please.

When have I forgotten about the statement? Its just vague enough to be meaningless.

No one cares when I have an art and a statement that supports it.

I'm just gonna repost what I said last time

• A statement that is vague enough to support my arugment as much as yours

• A image you've admitted was inconsistent before.

People do care about the contradictory art, hence why this thread was made and why multiple people have complained about the calc.

Not when you have a stated support behind

You're using a word that means "Get closer to" as evidence. Madara flying 10 feet towards to moon is approaching it as much as flying 200,000 miles towards the moon is approaching it.

What? I understood nothing.

Can you clearly explain your previous passage 8n greater detail then: "I do not care at all for the inconsistent arts that have nothing to do with the feat in question. For this very reason, the Land of Naruto has a few hundred kilometers. So ... Was it the author's intention or not? If you can not answer me, your argument is useless."

Because I have no idea what you were asking for.

Yes ... 2 refuted with mastery and efficiency

None have been refuted. The only one that you can even vaguely call refuted is the headband, which Kep said requires common sense to debunk. Which, using a similar arugment, I could easily say "If you have any common sense you should realize Madara did not fly hundreds of thousands of kilometers towards the moon".

 

[MostPowerfull]

@Xulrev

I have not insulted anyone yet and I do not have to consider something, which is clearly only the fruit of someone's mind. Being sarcastic and ironic is not a fallacy, much less an insult.
I do not have to keep myself subtle when someone says that Naruto and Sasuke stayed hours to destroy meteors and says that this is a "supplementary argument to prove something" ... It's comical!

What you agree or not, what you trust or not... I dont care!

 

[Qawsedf234]

When have I ever stated that Naruto and Sasuke spent hours blowing up meteors? Using a straw man argument to disregard my points isn't a solid debate tactic.

Also, while completely minor, I don't see how implying I cannot see and lack common sense isn't a insult.

 

[AguilaR101]

Just the fact the angular size of the moon is never true to real life in fictional works is enough to dismiss this feat. No amount of additional context will make the only frame of reference used to infer the distance any less unreliable.

 

[MostPowerfull]

" When have I forgotten about the statement? Its just vague enough to be meaningless."

And it continues to support the image.
What have I missed besides your headcanon?

" I'm just gonna repost what I said last time

• A statement that is vague enough to support my arugment as much as yours
• A image you've admitted was inconsistent before.

People do care about the contradictory art, hence why this thread was made and why multiple people have complained about the calc."

Half of those who complained, with the exception of a few, are constantly asking for downgrades on Naruto and upgrades on Bleach (call it a coincidence, perhaps!) and the arguments used... Do not refute what was said in calc once which has solid foundation!

" You're using a word that means "Get closer to" as evidence. Madara flying 10 feet towards to moon is approaching it as much as flying 200,000 miles towards the moon is approaching it."

Yes, and I have an image that tells us the distance he was and a statement that supports it.
So, your headcanon is debunked. Try again!

" Can you clearly explain your previous passage 8n greater detail then: "I do not care at all for the inconsistent arts that have nothing to do with the feat in question. For this very reason, the Land of Naruto has a few hundred kilometers. So ... Was it the author's intention or not? If you can not answer me, your argument is useless."

Because I have no idea what you were asking for. "

It is not because there are inconsistencies, that they apply to this or any other deed. that is not the fact of origin.
So, having inconsistencies in other chapters that are not in this one and that can actually compromise the calc is IRRELEVANT!

" None have been refuted. The only one that you can even vaguely call refuted is the headband, which Kep said requires common sense to debunk. Which, using a similar arugment, I could easily say "If you have any common sense you should realize Madara did not fly hundreds of thousands of kilometers towards the moon". "

"Slightly debunked the headband"?
"It involves good sense ..."
LMAO! So you really believe the bandana took hours to fall from where it was thousands of kilometers off the ground?
Repeating... Madara had not moved yet when the mountains were shown on the panel, she was ripping off her head shield. That's enough to make your proof even more dubious. And it has no contradiction or break of common sense, in Madara fly all this distance.

The rest is simply given by the manga and the rest is headcanon.

 

[MostPowerfull]

My God! If the head guard falling from where it is in free fall, it would take hours to reach the ground.

So if you tell me that this is supplementary evidence ... How are you not agreeing with it? Or do not you even know what you're talking about?

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Madara Mountain and Moon Shot


Headband Fell On Ground


Sasuke Moon Shot


Meteor Height

I only have time for one comment on the matter since I'm busy with finals, but I do want to put out my own words since I have spoken on this calc before in a previous thread.
Madara tears off the headband when he is literally above visible mountains that are obviously on Earth, thus Madara is nowhere near the moon, it's literally not possible.

In the next panel Madara begins his spiel on the Uchiha Stone Tablet writing on how to activate the Infinite Tsukiyomi and describes how he must approach the moon to do so and conveniently the moon is shown.

The obvious conclusion is that Madara did not fly literally to the moon.

Immediately from tearing off his headband while mountains are literally visible under him he then is shown looking at the moon and drops his headband. The same headband that is shown to fall back on the ground after half a chapters worth of pages.

Thus, further proof that Madara did not fly to the moon since the headband could land straight down back on the ground from Madara's position in the sky. And recall, Madara still has the headband in his hand in the panel of him looking at the moon. He doesn't drop the headband until he finishes his internal dialogue.

So yes, Madara could not have flown to the moon, the headband would not have landed on the ground if he had flown to the moon and in space.

Ang-sizing this calc makes no sense because Kishimoto doesn't care. This isn't the first time Kishimoto has drawn the moon looking huge and upclose, in fact it's pretty much a trope that artist draw the moon or even the sun larger than they are in reality in the sky.

For evidence, Sasuke is shown by the moon in a similar manner and scale as Madara was in the aforementioned calc and scans. However, in the following panels we see Sasuke fly straight down and pass by debris from Madara's destroyed meteors.

Need I remind people that the heighest of these meteors was nowhere near the moon still. Yet Madara who was of similar scale to the moon as Sasuke is thought to be in space and near the moon?

It's quite obvious and clear that Madara did not fly directly to the moon. The panels show he did not, Kishimoto's consistency with Sasuke show he did not, the headband falling half a chapter later and on the ground show he did not and even the anime (which apparently we can use the anime scenes if it does not contradict the manga scenes) show he did not.

Hell, even in the video game Madara does not fly to the moon, he's still high in the sky despite the moon shot being shown before the mountain shot.

Madara did not fly to the moon, nothing proves it.

 

[AKM sama]

Why not just use the other sub-rel calc and scale people to that rather than using this unreliable method?

 

[MostPowerfull]

I'll simply ignore the rest and make my argument over the head protector ...

It's not just common sense, it's FACT. To make a simple free fall calc, we can refute this statement:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Kepekley23/Naruto_Revision_Calcs

D = 3145.5 km

Being quite generous and considering the weight of a human hand, we have a weight around 0.4925kg, according to the Quora:

https://www.quora.com/How-much-does-a-human-hand-weigh

And this ...

T = 701.184.08717458 seconds ... Or something around 194.773357548494431 hours.

That is to say ... The bandana fall, no matter that it is 3000km or thousands of kilometers, would still be a contradiction and therefore, it is irrelevant.