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Low 7-B+ upgrade for Sabaody archipelago characters+ (pre-timeskip)

Occams Razor is what you're trying to reject.

I can punch a box and make a hole through it. If you can't or haven't seen someone doing it, that doesn't disprove the fact that Luffy did something Moriah couldn't.
 
@The Calaca; I would say that Occam's Razor is on my side here.

You're assuming that the box is still completely as durable after being crushed and heavily deformed.

And you're also comparing apples and oranges; you're comparing Luffy ripping himself out of the inside of the box to Moriah crushing it flat from the outside. Of course Moriah crushing it isn't going to rip it open.
 
How is Occams Razor on your side when you're twisting the argument and making it harder to get by using the assumption that the Box suddenly changes in durability?

This is Occams Razor for this case:

  • Moriah punches the Box.
  • The Box is unscathed.
  • Luffy punches the Box.
  • The Box is torn apart.
This isn't an entirely physical material but Moriah's Shadow. There's no stated difference in how it works from different angles.

Random bystander's statement doesn't prove Moriah > Oars, especially since outside of his insane durability and stamina, Moriah has no physical feats to prove his Shadow Asgard is conclusively > Nightmare Luffy outside of the lack of destructive feats. Moriah could very well have High 8-C AP and get that upgrade from the Shadows to even be a threat.
 
KingOFG said:
When Zoro and Luffy injured the Pacifist he was already damaged. So I don't know if both should scale (Especially Luffy who took the final shot)
Click to expand...
Sorry I never got around to responding to your comment. Zoro and Luffy with Asura and G3 would naturally scale to 3.82 Megatons due to the multiplier so the pacifista would undoubtedly scale to that even if it had taken damage prior to these attacks being used.
 
> The box is unscathed.

Please re-read the chapter.

What do you mean by "Moriah cold have been a High 8-C" threat? Are you taking just about base Moriah? Because I'm only referring to him with Shadows Asgard active.
 
Damage3245 said:
To be honest, I don't think that Gear 2 Luffy should be fully scaling to Shadows Asgard Gecko Moria.
Click to expand...
agreed. Moria was stated to be stronger than Oars at that point and Oars was stronger than all of the strawhats.
 
Tearing a box from the inside or the outside makes no difference if you're literally massive, and again this is fiction and likely the author wasn't putting that much thought into it. Moriah couldn't completely destroy the black box with his two attacks, Luffy did. Both of them used unnamed attacks...

Bystanders saying Moriah is even stronger than oars isn't enough proof, do they have information analysis, do they have a way to sense their power level to prove it? No, it's false hype for Moriah since it was the final part to the fight.

Put it this way, Moriah believed he could defeat Kaido with Oars (lmao) implying that was something he couldn't do on his own (100% true) so by that logic moriah's own words > some random bystanders.

The comments "Luffy can't be stronger than oars" were already addressed in the original thriller bark revision thread and calaca has already given some points towards it in this thread, it's not relevant here.
 
Please do not spam five posts in a row.

Heck, even three posts in a row is too much. You can edit your post if you have more to say. Please move some of your latest posts up then remove the most recent ones.

To address your points though; what happened in the original thread doesn't concern me. I wasn't a part of that. This topic is relevant to the current discussion since we're talking about changing their ratings.

The bystanders were directly commenting Moriah's attacks compared to Oars. You can't dismiss them as just "false hype" when Moriah undeniably has better feats than Oars.

Moriah's Shadows Asgard was a desperation move. It made him much stronger than he would be normally, but he can't control the shadows well. The people witnessing the fight even said it would be too difficult for Moriah to control.
 
Thanks for the heads up damage, it's been fixed.

I've contacted kobster so he can address debates that were brought up in the last thread as well as calaca if he wishes too.

There are a lot of characters with worse feats than what they scale too, it's how the wiki is. True, this case seems like direct comparison but it doesn't change the fact that oars scales to the feat and bystanders comments are just that and unless they're important sources they can't be trusted, to follow up:

Him using a desperate attack doesn't dismiss his words or views on his own power compared to Oars; he obviously doesn't believe himself to be stronger than Kaido so even taking into account his desperate attack he believed oars would have been enough to stop kaido, moriah's words are clear and simple > bystanders.
 
The Box was unscathed. It was Moriah's Shadow that made the Box, not some kind of solid material that would easily break like stone. His punch and kick only deformed the Box but didn't truly damaged it as that's not how it works.

I'm saying that SA Moriah was hyped to be stronger than Oars because of the 1000 Shadows inside him, but that not necessarily means he was stronger.

  • Luffy with a base power level of 3000 got added 100 shadows of a PL of 3 each, getting a final result of 3300 as Nightmare Luffy.
  • Moriah has a PL of 5 by himself and got 1000 shadows. So he'd have 3005.
The difference between the base PL of both is way smaller than the difference between a High 8-C and a High 7-C. It's used only as a reference to portray the case.

The shadows do increase power, but doesn't necessarily put Moriah that far above the rest of the characters, especially since he was called stronger than Oars only and, judging by the whole fight, Nightmare Luffy doesn't have much on his side when compared to regular Gears.

Was Oars stronger than the Strawhats? Yes is the short answer, but he was keeping up with them by himself and only gain the advantage back when Moriah joined the fight.
 
> The Box was unscathed. It was Moriah's Shadow that made the Box, not some kind of solid material that would easily break like stone. His punch and kick only deformed the Box but didn't truly damaged it as that's not how it works.

If the box was deformed then clearly it was affected by his attacks; however it's not going to rip because he was destroying it from the outside, not the inside like Luffy.

We can't say that Luffy has a higher physical strength than Shadows Asgard Moriah who is stronger than Oars.

The 1,000 shadows inside of him is one of the reasons why we should consider him stronger; the other is that he has by far the most impressive feat in Thriller Bark by shattering the island with his punch. It's only after this impressive display that the people call him stronger than Oars.

Now, I understand your point about the shadows and their base power levels, but that is assuming that all shadows are of equal strength isn't it? That seems contradictory to what is presented in the arc, that some shadows are much stronger than others.
 
I would joke about you being so weak that you can't destroy a Box but I know you're just trying to make a point... under the wrong arguments.

The box was unaffected. It's made of Shadows so it deforms with physical Force being applied to it.

Hit a Box with a hammer and it will break even if you hit him from the outside. What even is this point, seriously? Stomp on a cardboard box and it will break. You can crack an egg hitting it from the outside, and a more similar case might not be found as an egg is like a box in the sense that it contains something in the inside.

We can't? Who decided that? You?

Ignoring the fact that the amount of Shadows don't necessarily matter as Zoro could produce similar damage to Oars than Nightmare Luffy did.

It's an estimative. You're paying too much attention and effort to the wrong things while trying to stretch an argument that doesn't hold water.

Luffy damaged Moriah and displayed a feat Moriah couldn't. It can't be more simple than that, and you have the nerve to call Occams Razor on your side when you're talking about different durabilities in boxes.
 
@The Calaca; yes, I have the "nerve" to say that it's more reasonable that a box which has been crushed twice by two massive attacks would be more susceptible to being ripped from the inside.

If you crushed a box with a hammer that was bigger than the box, you'd flatten it sure, but the application of force is entirely different than if you're punching your way out from the inside. Of course you're not going to just flattan the box if you're hitting it from the inside; or to put it another way in case you can't visualize what I mean; the energy of Moriah's attack is spread throughout the entire box when he crushes it, but Luffy's attack is concentrated into a single point.

That's a relevant thing to consider when evaluating the feat.

> Ignoring the fact that the amount of Shadows don't necessarily matter as Zoro could produce similar damage to Oars than Nightmare Luffy did.

From what I can tell Luffy's attacks were far more effective on Oars than Zoro's were; it's just hard to tell since as a zombie Oars isn't slowed down by pain / minor damage.

> Luffy damaged Moriah and displayed a feat Moriah couldn't.

Luffy also damaged Pre-Timeskip Blackbeard, but we aren't scaling him to High 7-A.

In this case, it makes more sense not to fully scale Luffy with just Gear 2 to Shadows Asgard Moriah.
 
This is thriller bark not the summit war saga. we can't apply the same logic to Moriah as we do with Blackbeard as he doesn't scale to anyone else; he was beaten by pacifista and Jinbe with ease...
 
They did, currently we scale them to at least High 7-C since they were pretty overwhelmed by gear second, I suppose since the base ratings are changing to something lower we should change the boa sisters to "likely low 7-B"
 
The box isn't stated to be more durable in the outside than in the inside nor it's suggested to be anything like that. That's your assumption.

The energy isn't that spread like you pretend to make it look like. The fist isn't massively bigger than the box, and even if it were like that, I come back to the egg analogy. An egg is for sure smaller than a hand yet you can crush one with ease, and an egg is void in the insides (sans the gene pool). This is a clear comparation that Moriah can't break this 'egg' with not one but two attacks.

And the spread energy argument would only make sense if we say that Luffy being, for example, 7-C could punch his way out because his energy is concentrated while a Low 7-B punch which covers the whole box couldn't. That ignores the fact that the energy the box can withstand is not comparable to that output and that the box wouldn't break in any possible angle (it doesn't as Luffy is depicted stronger but people get the point).

Both Nightmare Luffy and Zoro(with his strongest move Haki and Kyutoryu aside) performed a similar feat, and Nightmare Luffy was in base only. And like I said and you seems to acknowledge, the true threat was Oars' zombie condition and his stupidly erratic fighting style inherited from Luffy's shadow.

And no, Luffy can't scale to Blackbeard and using this to disprove his scaling to Moriah is dishonest. Two different arcs, one of them where Luffy competes with Top and God Tiers despite being absolute fodder.
 
You know, I was going to make a big counter-argument post, but I just reread the chapter yet again and realized that this pointless because Moria did in fact tear through the box. We can see Luffy's hand sticking out of the thing after Moriah's attacks.

So now the argument of "Luffy did something that Moriah failed to do" falls apart.

My point regarding Blackbeard isn't to disprove the scaling; it's to show that scaling because one character hurt another isn't automatically allowed dependong context, and there is context that leans against that scaling as I've pointed out. Diable Jambe Sanji shouldn't be scaling higher than Oars.
 
So Moriah and Luffy performed the same feat, which was what we're scaling them to anyways. Although it did still take Moriah more strikes than it did Luffy so nothing has changed.
 
@Eminiteable; you're overlooking that this means there is likely no more feat of Luffy ripping the Black Box open. The black box was already opened by Moriah. Luffy just got himself free from the damaged remains of it.
 
It took two strikes from Moriah to rip it slightly, Luffy then proceeded to rip out of it completely; simple stuff that they both performed the same feat.
 
I agree that some of his arguments seem to make sense; but the overall point remains the same.

We're currently scaling Sanji to be stronger than Oars, despite Sanji only being able to deflect Oars' attacks with great effort.

And the OP is assuming that three people launching attacks at the same time means those three are equally stronger.
 
A combined attack from all three sending Kuma back doesn't portray the three of them as equals???
 
All three fought Kuma off screen and there is no suggestion that Zoro is weaker than the other two in this instance.
 
I agree with Damage. Shooting attacks with other people at the same time doesn't means that you have the same level of power as them. But I also think that makes sense for Luffy scale to Moriah with Gear Second in some status (Could be argue for AP via make him cry out in pain, or just dura as he was fine after several of Moriah's attacks inside the black box) and for Pacifista scale to Base Zoro's AP + DJ Sanji + G2 Luffy (Sanji using his strongests serious attacks in conjunction with his two partners failed to defeat Pacifista).
 
@Ryuga21; given Luffy's blunt force resistance, I don't think his durability would fully scale.

Luffy was knocking Moriah back with Gear 2, but he wasn't causing noticeable damage. It was only when he stacked Gear 2 and Gear 3 together that he was seriously affecting him.
 
The three of them fought Kuma off screen for some time and all three were equally damaged; then a literal combined attack sent the pacifista flying; I don't know why we're assuming there is a big difference in power between these three when they did that as nothing suggests so.
 
Focusing on a different point for a moment, you mention that several characters will no longer be scaling to 424.65 Kilotons. What is your suggested ratings for those characters?
 
Unsure I was hoping the major debate would be on that subject I was just going to set them to their former ratings before the revisions if no discussion was made.
 
@Damage

Luffy implies to endure Moriah's attacks because his body is made of rubber. If with this body he can withstand Low 7-B attacks why his durability would not scale?

@Eminiteable It is not how it works. We have no indication that if Zoro were not there, the Pacifista would not be sent away, just as we have no indication of the amount of damage that each one does. But to be fair, Zoro could damage Oars, so base Zoro should scale to him on my sight.
 
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