Low 7-B+ upgrade for Sabaody archipelago characters+ (pre-timeskip)

[Damage3245]

@Ryuga21; sorry if I was unclear; if a character has resistance to certain types of attacks then their durability doesn't necessarily scale fully to it.

We could say that Luffy's durability against blunt attacks is that high, but it would be misleading to say his overall durability is that high. Withstanding a certain amount of megatons of blunt damage doesn't mean he can fare that well against non-blunt damage.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree that some of his arguments seem to make sense; but the overall point remains the same.

We're currently scaling Sanji to be stronger than Oars, despite Sanji only being able to deflect Oars' attacks with great effort.

And the OP is assuming that three people launching attacks at the same time means those three are equally stronger.

I suppose that is a good point.

 

[The_Calaca]

Luffy still broke free of the BB, and cosidering he hit Moriah with multiple Jet Bazooka, making him lose consciousness, he has legit scaling. Moriah was losing the shadows because of losing consciousness. It's not that too many shadows make him fall unconscious, but he can't control them if he gets KOd (like many DF users).

If the problem comes from Sanji, then we might check that out.

 

[Eminiteable]

I did suggest a sabaody key for both Sanji and Zoro.

 

[Damage3245]

I don't fully disagree with you, but in the manga the statements are:

"Moria's losing consciousness, and with it his command."

"Even for someone like Moria, controlling 1000 shadows is too much for mind to bear."

Luffy's attacks were definitely having an effect, but I think it is also suggested that the sheer number of shadows he was trying to control was overtaxing him. Which is why shadows were being released after a single hit even though it took multiple more hits plus a building falling on him to finally knock him unconscious.

Seeing as the end result required a combination of Gear 2 + Gear 3, plus a massive building falling on him, it would be wrong to rate Gear 2 Luffy as "Capable of knocking Moria unconscious".

 

[The_Calaca]

That's not suggested at all.

What the manga says is that having too many Shadows is difficult to control even for Moriah, meaning that losing consciousness would free them all.

I never said that Luffy is able to knock him unconscious tho. Just that he scales to Moriah.

 

[Damage3245]

@The Calaca; I must disagree. If you go back and read the mechanics of when inserting shadows was explained to Luffy by Lola and her crew, they explain that the power-up from inserting shadows is temporary and that the ability to hold on to the shadows is tied to the user's will and eventually the user will become unconscious.

When they first inserted a shadow into him they asked him if he could stay conscious.

This, combined with the second quote I mentioned up above, definitely suggests that having multiple shadows in your body will have a serious effect on you.

 

[Eminiteable]

Calaca said "if Moriah loses consciousness all the shadows would go free" which is true. Moriah was struggling due to the shadows yes but he was still being forced unconscious by Luffy's blows; if it was purely moriah's lack of control then Luffy could have simply waited it out until Moriah passes out...

 

[Damage3245]

@Eminiteable; it's a combination. Zoro said that the battle was already won by them and that Moriah's move was purely out of desperatio. Zoro even states it comes down to whether the sun comes out first or if Moriah will destroy himself.

Luffy just helped speed the process up. And he really doesn't seem like the kind of guy to just sit back and wait.

 

[Eminiteable]

If it's a combination then Luffy should stills scale; either way Moriah losing consciousness only happened when he got hit from luffy; meaning he was being forced by Luffy.

Considering all the shadows would go away if he lost consciousness on his own I feel it's fair to say Luffy was a major factor and as such scales.

 

[Damage3245]

@Eminiteable; I think he should scale; but only with his combination of Gear 2 and Gear 3.

 

[Eminiteable]

Why? He was making Moriah lose consciousness with his gear second attacks + BB, gear second and third combination just knocked him our completely, if anything, that should scale above Moriah since it was that.much stronger than him.

 

[Damage3245]

@Eminiteable; Gear 2 + Gear 3 didn't knock him out completely, it was that plus the combination of a giant skyscraper falling onto him plus the strain of his countless shadows that finished him off.

With his Gear 2 attacks Luffy was knocking Moriah back and causing slight pain, but that was all. Moriah was already in the process of losing consciousness due to the vast amount of shadows in him as explained up above.

 

[Eminiteable]

Then what's the issue then? If the Gear 2 attacks were causing him pain and making him lose consciousness + BB, then it should scale, if that particular Gear Third and Second combined attack didn't knock him out completely then it simply isn't that much stronger than gear second, point being; Gear second has enough reason to scale...

 

[Damage3245]

The issue is that Gear 2 Luffy wasn't making him lose consciousness; he already was.

Luffy didn't destroy an intact Brick Box like Moriah did; he just ripped himself out of the destroyed remains of it.

Gear 2 pushed Moriah back, but he shouldn't be scaling fully to Moriah's attack. And it would be wrong to try and scale others like base Zoro or Diamble Jambe Sanji to Moriah's attack too for the reasons I've already mentioned.

You also haven't explained what values everyone else will actually be scaling to; I know you mentioned that you'd put them back to whatever they were at before, but that isn't an answer.

 

[Eminiteable]

Last point first; that's what the debate should be on but it can't come up until you've finally conceded, so let's not bring up other debates for now.

Moriah's physical blows (1.27 Megatons) crushed the blackbox and only made a tear in it, then Luffy in gear second teared out of it; this isn't a physical substance as it's made of shadows; both performed the same feat in tearing the blackbox.

Moriah if he lost consciousness due to the shadows would have lost all of them completely similar to nightmare Luffy; Luffy lost consciousness at the end and all of them left his body and he was left unconscious. Luffy with a gear second jet bazooka struck Moriah forcing him into un-conciousness due to the pain, it's right there.

They're scaling due to fighting the pacifista equally alongside gear second Luffy in sabaody archipelago; they literally combined their attacking powers to send it flying and during the exchange there is no implications that any are weaker than the others when striking the pacifista; you need to provide an actual counter argument against this l.

 

[Damage3245]

@Eminiteable; I'm not conceding this point. If your argument is that the black box has no physical substance and therefore has no durability, then the feat is meaningless for both of them.

Moriah did end up losing all of the shadows completely in the end; he lost them gradually before that, but not solely because of Luffy's attacks.

Nowhere is it stated that Moriah's loss of consciousness was due to the pain from Luffy's attacks.

If you have a proposal for what everyone else should scale to, you should post it.

Look at it this way; you're suggesting that the Pacifista have 3.82 Megatons durability, yet it was also able to be harmed by several weaker attacks.

Likewise Moriah could have 1.27 Megatons durability but express pain at feeling much weaker attacks.

 

[Eminiteable]

If you're not going to concede no matter what then all you're doing here is vandalising the post, again that debate cannot be brought up until Luffy's own rating has been concluded.

Unsure why I used "not a physical substance" but my point was more referring back to Calaca's argument on the blackbox's nature.

Nice try but you're blatantly not being honest about what happened: Moriah only lost shadows after Luffy struck him, show don't tell, it's quite clear that he lost shadows from Luffy's attacks and since him losing shadows is due to un-conciousness it's quite clear that he's losing them from Luffy's attacks due to pain.

This is simple stuff and you're acting ignorant and being dishonest about the scenes is honestly not needed at this point.

 

[Damage3245]

> If you're not going to concede no matter what then all you're doing here is vandalising the post

People disagreeing with you is not vandalism.

What do you make of this?:

> Look at it this way; you're suggesting that the Pacifista have 3.82 Megatons durability, yet it was also able to be harmed by several weaker attacks.

> Likewise Moriah could have 1.27 Megatons durability but express pain at feeling much weaker attacks.

Luffy doesn't need to fully scale to Moriah to inflict pain.

 

[Eminiteable]

> People disagreeing with you is not vandalism.

Person disagreeing and openly admitting they won't concede on this point is different.

> Look at it this way; you're suggesting that the Pacifista have 3.82 Megatons durability, yet it was also able to be harmed by several weaker attacks.

It wasn't harmed by any weaker attack; in the fight it was only ever damaged by singular people, which are; the combined attack of G2 Luffy diable Jambe Sanji and base Zoro, robin using the pacifista's own laser against it, nami passing electricity through it (it's a robot) and lastly Asura Zoro and Gear Third Luffy. Otherwise it tanked everyone else's attacks.

> Likewise Moriah could have 1.27 Megatons durability but express pain at feeling much weaker attacks

Headcanon. There is nothing suggesting or implying this point. Why did you bring it up?

 

[Damage3245]

@Eminiteable; it's not head canon. And there's nothing wrong with refusing to concede if you haven't been swayed by the otherside's arguments.

Let me try and illustrate why the current / proposed scaling would be wrong. What do you think base Moria's AP / Durability would scale to, if we used what you're suggesting in the OP?

 

[Eminiteable]

Whatever it was before the revisions. After checking he was the same rating as before and Moriah in Asgard was rated as at least High 7-C so honestly the changes aren't much we just need to get a solid idea of what we were scaling people to before (even if it was just their Enies lobby ratings followed on to thriller bark)

If anyone has any issue they should bring it up so it can be addressed rather than just asking what their ratings would go to.

 

[Damage3245]

@Eminiteable; I'm asking what the ratings will be in your mind so that I can make sure we're on the same page.

Gecko Moriah's AP justification states he gets his rating from hurting Monkey D. Luffy. After this revision it is being proposed that Luffy's durability rating will be 1.27 Megatons.

So Gecko Moriah's AP in base will be equal to his AP rating in Shadows Asgard.

Do you see my point on how the scaling would be wrong?

 

[Eminiteable]

Sorry but for pre-timeskip Luffy his durability is Low 7-B in gear second but still High 7-C in base. Moriah would also be High 7-C for blocking an attack from base Luffy etc etc. This is what he got scaled to before hand and is what I'm planning on putting him at unless anyone else has a different suggestion.

 

[Damage3245]

Wasn't aware that we rated his Pre-Timeskip durability to be different with Gear 2. I've had arguments with people in the past who insisted that the Gears did not affect Luffy's durability.

 

[Eminiteable]

Yeah definitely for pre-timeskip his gears effect his durability which I agree with. I'll make a sandbox in about an hour which will give an idea of where everyone will be rated so that way it makes everything a bit more clear for everyone.

 

[Antvasima]

What are the conclusions here?

 

[Damage3245]

Eminiteable and I still disagree on a couple of points but he is currently writing up a sandbox of proposals for everyone's new ratings which will hopefully clear some things up.

 

[Eminiteable]

I haven't yet created the sandbox for where 424 kiloton characters will scale but I will get to work on it as soon as I can.

Potentially to resolve issues regarding oars scaling to Moriah we either don't take the bystanders statement serious and rather assume oars is comparable based off moriah's own opinion on oars. Or we assume the bystander is correct and instead we create sabaody profiles for Zoro, Sanji (maybe Luffy).

Luffy scaling to 1.27 Megatons has disagreement with from damage but I think we're close to a conclusion or we can pick it up larer, whatever.

Some people think Zoro and sanji shouldn't scale to Luffy just because "they struck the pacifista at the same time", but this ignores that all three have been fighting the pacifista off screen for a portion of time all equally damaged and then using a combined attack to damage it. So far I haven't actually received any proof or counter arguments for why they shouldn't scale.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. It would be preferable if Calaca reaches an agreement with you two as well though.

 

[Eminiteable]

Right i'm sorry for the wait, and also sorry that it may be a bit messy; for those where it's relevant i added sections for attack potency and durability and also added notes for why certain characters would scale differently (if no note is given then it just means they scale to what their default profile lists) https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Eminiteable/Sandbox2

 

[Damage3245]

@Eminiteable; you should update it with the justifications alongside the ratings, not just the ratings.

Also, slight mistake in the header at the top, you've put Gigatons instead of Megatons.

 

[Eminiteable]

my mistake, i'll work on justification now since i have time.

 

[Damage3245]

Thank you.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you both for helping out.

 

[Tetsucabrah]

So are the weaker characters just scaling to baseline High 7-C?

Idk I personally find the idea of the Pre Skip Chopper being stronger than most of CP9 to be a bit of a stretch even if it is confirmed that the straw hats get a good bit stronger every arc.

 

[Eminiteable]

Thanks Tetsucabrah, I put that there since it seems to have been put in place during the thriller bark revisions, although it was accepted in the thriller bark revisions i wasn't entirely sure where Base Gecko Moriah's durability came from (probably not in effect with different keys for thriller bark and sabaody) so i'm unsure and i would appreciate if people could tell me.

Again any issue with anything just bring it up.

 

[Antvasima]

I have to unsubscribe from this thread due to time constraints. You can notify me later via my message wall if you need my help after you have reached a conclusion.

 

[Tetsucabrah]

Thanks Tetsucabrah, I put that there since it seems to have been put in place during the thriller bark revisions, although it was accepted in the thriller bark revisions i wasn't entirely sure where Base Gecko Moriah's durability came from (probably not in effect with different keys for thriller bark and sabaody)

His low 7-B durability? Seems to come from him tanking Nightmare Luffy's attacks, although I'm not sure if that should counter considering he was cushioned by Oars' body iirc. And he was knocked unconsious briefly.

 

[Eminiteable]

Never mind it seems he didn't have it accepted in the first place. anyways the justifications have all been added (as well as gecko moriah as it seems I forgot to put him there; although then again nothing will really change for his profile) also did an alternate Oars for whether Asgard Moriah is agreed as stronger than Oars or not.