Enies Lobby CRT

[Eseseso]

This is to discuss some probably-needed changes in the wake of the recent Water 7/Enies Lobby CRT Damage and Arc recently did.

1. Base Zoro matched a Base Kaku using Yontoryu and Rokushiki (although considering Yontoryu's whole shtick is Rokushiki, since it involves Kaku using Rankyaku with both his legs, they're more or less the same thing), who scales to 59.17 megatons. Thus, Base Zoro and all his keys in Enies Lobby should be lowered from 7-A to 7-B+ asides from Asura, which scales above Hybrid Kaku's Amane Dachi which scales above Hybrid Lucci's Rankyaku which is above Base Lucci's Rokushiki which is 108.57 megatons.

2. Base Zoro = Base Luffy, so Base Luffy would also be 59.17 megatons in Enies Lobby. This is actually supported by his Base alone being able to somewhat fight Hybrid Lucci, as he took plenty of blows in Base from Zoan/Hybrid Lucci, matched a kick from Hybrid Lucci, and caused him to actually use Tekkai to block a Gum Gum Rifle.

Yes, Blueno w/ Rokushiki matched Base Luffy, but this is probably an outlier, since it wouldn't make sense for Blueno w/ Rokushiki to be equal to Kaku w/ Rokushiki

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Following

 

[Damage3245]

Why not just avoid scaling Luffy to Zoro directly, and scale Luffy to the opponents he actually fought?

 

[Eseseso]

Why not just avoid scaling Luffy to Zoro directly, and scale Luffy to the opponents he actually fought?

IIRC it was confirmed that Base Zoro = Base Luffy.

Besides, it wouldn't make sense for Zoro (who scales to Rokushiki/Yontoryu Base Kaku) to be like 4.5x as strong as Base Luffy.

But even if we don't scale Luffy to Zoro, he should at minimum downscale to baseline 7-B+ from Hybrid Lucci FRA

 

[KingTempest]

IIRC it was confirmed that Base Zoro = Base Luffy.

No, it wasn't.

It was confirmed Luffy = Zoro, not explaining which one

 

[Damage3245]

I'm actually not so sure that Hybrid Lucci should be scaling above Rokushiki Lucci tbh, as is the case currently on the profiles. Will get back to this tomorrow.

Also, what KT said.

 

[Eseseso]

No, it wasn't.

It was confirmed Luffy = Zoro, not explaining which one

Ok then, but Base Luffy should still downscale from Hybrid Lucci due to matching a kick and taking like a dozen attacks from him.

 

[KingTempest]

Ok then, but Base Luffy should still downscale from Hybrid Lucci due to matching a kick and taking like a dozen attacks from him.

No

 

[Eseseso]

No

Why?

Either way, we do need to lower all of EL Zoro's stuff besides Asura to 7-B+

 

[Eminiteable]

1. Base Zoro matched a Base Kaku using Yontoryu and Rokushiki (although considering Yontoryu's whole shtick is Rokushiki, since it involves Kaku using Rankyaku with both his legs, they're more or less the same thing), who scales to 59.17 megatons. Thus, Base Zoro and all his keys in Enies Lobby should be lowered from 7-A to 7-B+ asides from Asura, which scales above Hybrid Kaku's Amane Dachi which scales above Hybrid Lucci's Rankyaku which is above Base Lucci's Rokushiki which is 108.57 megatons.

Nitoryu Zoro did this, Nitoryu Zoro also matched regular Hybrid Kaku but was overpowered by Hybrid Kaku using Rokushiki.

Santoryu Zoro was able to match and reflect Hybrid Kaku's rokushiki attacks and was implied to be stronger than him when Kaku called him strong.

Yes, Blueno w/ Rokushiki matched Base Luffy, but this is probably an outlier, since it wouldn't make sense for Blueno w/ Rokushiki to be equal to Kaku w/ Rokushiki

Or the databook simply wasn't scaling their strength base to base which is far more plausible than claiming the entire blueno fight is an outlier.

 

[Eseseso]

Nitoryu Zoro did this, Nitoryu Zoro also matched regular Hybrid Kaku but was overpowered by Hybrid Kaku using Rokushiki.

Actually, Kaku also mstched Santoryu Zoro with Yontoryu and Hybrid Nitoryu

Santoryu Zoro was able to match and reflect Hybrid Kaku's rokushiki attacks and was implied to be stronger than him when Kaku called him strong.

Even if that is so, since Kaku just scaled far above 59 megatons, we can't just upscale Zoro to baseline 7-a. Especially since we don't do sword multipliers anymore

Or the databook simply wasn't scaling their strength base to base which is far more plausible than claiming the entire blueno fight is an outlier.

Then we should just buff Luffy to 22.25 megatons for matching Rokushiki Blueno

 

[Eminiteable]

Actually, Kaku also mstched Santoryu Zoro with Yontoryu

Hybrid Nitoryu

Sure.

Nah, he pressured him for a lil bit but Zoro still overpowered him and this state.

But both of these fighting styles have nothing to do with what I mentioned in my previous post so I'm a bit unsure why you said "actually".

Even if that is so, since Kaku just scaled far above 59 megatons, we can't just upscale Zoro to baseline 7-A. Especially since we don't do sword multipliers anymore

I agree but it seems like the changes weren't applied to Zoro's profile from that CRT, although looking through the profiles a lot of them need their justifications altering + the linked doriki blog needs to be changed + the verse page needs updating.

Then we should just buff Luffy to 22.25 megatons for matching Rokushiki Blueno

Maybe I'm missing something but doesn't Luffy's profile already imply that via the current justification on it?

 

[Eseseso]

Sure.

Nah, he pressured him for a lil bit but Zoro still overpowered him and this state.

He still somewhat matched 3-sword Zoro, so it isn't too much weaker than his Hybrid Yontoryu since they all seem to be comparable in power.

I agree but it seems like the changes weren't applied to Zoro's profile from that CRT, although looking through the profiles a lot of them need their justifications altering + the linked doriki blog needs to be changed + the verse page needs updating.

Agreed

Maybe I'm missing something but doesn't Luffy's profile already imply that via the current justification on it?

It does, but Base Luffy currently only scales to 12.56 megatons, same with Lucci

 

[Eminiteable]

He still somewhat matched 3-sword Zoro, so it isn't too much weaker than his Hybrid Yontoryu since they all seem to be comparable in power.

But both of these fighting styles have nothing to do with what I mentioned in my previous post so I'm a bit unsure why you said "actually".

It does, but Base Luffy currently only scales to 12.56 megatons, same with Lucci

Odd, where can I find out where they all scale then because the verse page doesn't give any info

 

[Damage3245]

Odd, where can I find out where they all scale then because the verse page doesn't give any info

This is a partial representation of the scaling in that arc:

I was going to elaborate on it but more revisions in the near-future may impact it so I didn't want to focus too much on that scaling list.

 

[Eminiteable]

This is a partial representation of the scaling in that arc:

I was going to elaborate on it but more revisions in the near-future may impact it so I didn't want to focus too much on that scaling list.

My current thoughts on it are Base Luffy should scale to Blueno's Rokushiki value considering he matched it equally. This is also supported by Base Lucci damaging Franky with his physicals who could break through Fukurou's Tekkai.

 

[Eseseso]

My current thoughts on it are Base Luffy should scale to Blueno's Rokushiki value considering he did so. This is also supported by Base Lucci damaging Franky with his physicals who could break through Fukurou's Tekkai.

Agreed.

All of Zoro and Kaku's stuff should be 7-B+ (besides Base Kaku) besides Amane Dachi and Zoro's Asura, since the only 7-A thing Kaku now has is Amane Dachi, which Asura easily destroyed.

 

[Eminiteable]

All of Zoro and Kaku's stuff should be 7-B+ (besides Base Kaku) besides Amane Dachi and Zoro's Asura, since the only 7-A thing Kaku now has is Amane Dachi, which Asura easily destroyed.

I agree with this

 

[Eseseso]

So what we agreed with is:

• All of Zoro's and Kaku's stuff (besides Kaku's normal Base) is downgraded from 7-A to 7-B+, with the exception of Amane Dachi and Asura
• Base Enies Lobby Luffy scales to Blueno's Rokushiki, aka 22.25 megatons.

Just curious, why can't Base Luffy downscale from Hybrid Lucci when his base took like 6-10 attacks from Hybrid Lucci and matched a kick from him?

 

[Eminiteable]

Base Enies Lobby Luffy scales to Blueno's Rokushiki, aka 22.25 megatons.

This would probably effect the base CP9 members values from what I can tell.

The verse page though definitely needs updating and a new doriki scaling blog should be created that the relevant profiles & verse page link to.

 

[Eseseso]

This would probably effect the base CP9 members values from what I can tell.

How? It only applies to the Rokushiki of Blueno and Lucci's base.

The verse page though definitely needs updating and a new doriki scaling blog should be created that the relevant profiles & verse page link to.

Agreed.

 

[Eminiteable]

How? It only applies to the Rokushiki of Blueno and Lucci's base.

Because Doriki is linear? If Lucci scales to a higher value that effects all the values that those with a doriki value scale too.

 

[Eminiteable]

IDK if this is the thread for it but Usopp's durability shouldn't scale to Hybrid Jabra's Rokushiki considering he was badly damaged from a regular punch from a sleepy base jabra:

 

[Damage3245]

So do you think we should downgrade Usopp's durability there to 7-B instead of 7-B+?

 

[Eminiteable]

So do you think we should downgrade Usopp's durability there to 7-B instead of 7-B+?

Yeah.

 

[Damage3245]

Yeah.

Usopp's durability is already 7-B, so we'd just need to update his justification.

 

[Eseseso]

IDK if this is the thread for it but Usopp's durability shouldn't scale to Hybrid Jabra's Rokushiki considering he was badly damaged from a regular punch from a sleepy base jabra:

The issue is that he took several hits from Hybrid Jabra, which scales above Base Jabra w/ Rokushiki, meaning even normal Hybrid Jabra scales about 59 megatons.

Also, since Base Luffy got downgraded, shouldn't Oars also get downgraded?

 

[Eminiteable]

Usopp's durability is already 7-B, so we'd just need to update his justification.

Sounds good

The issue is that he took several hits from Hybrid Jabra, which scales above Base Jabra w/ Rokushiki, meaning even normal Hybrid Jabra scales about 59 megatons.

He survived them as his current profile justification states. The shigan technique tore straight through his body & the regular kick broke his nose. Quoting the durability page his durability wouldn't scale here, only his endurance:

Surviving Attacks​

Many characters have been shown to survive attacks far above their durability, usually surviving with large injuries that others on their scale usually wouldn't survive. This is because of endurance, as they can endure a certain amount of pain regardless if the attack has burned them or sliced off limbs. This is not a durability factor, as this is a quality that is commonly attributed to willpower.

 

[Damage3245]

Also, since Base Luffy got downgraded, shouldn't Oars also get downgraded?

Will cover that when I get some of my next revisions.

 

[Eseseso]

Will cover that when I get some of my next revisions.

We're gonna get some post-timeskip downgrades for 90% of the High 7-A and 6-C people, aren't we?

 

[Damage3245]

We're gonna get some post-timeskip downgrades for 90% of the High 7-A and 6-C people, aren't we?

Can't make any promises yet.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

The issue is that he took several hits from Hybrid Jabra, which scales above Base Jabra w/ Rokushiki, meaning even normal Hybrid Jabra scales about 59 megatons.

Also, since Base Luffy got downgraded, shouldn't Oars also get downgraded?

Wasn't that ten finger pistol or what ever it's called the attack that Sanji had to sidestep at the end of their battle, or am I misremembering?
Found an image of it
While I'm at it I even found a Twitter post showing a couple panels of Zoro and Sanji's fights at Enies Lobby, not sure if they're relevant to this CRT but they're there.

 

[Damage3245]

I'll post a separate thread specifically for Usopp's durability tomorrow as I've got issues beyond just the Enies Lobby arc.

 

[Nierre]

was this thread concluded?