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Low 2-C Mario: In The Final

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DarkDragonMedeus said:
First of all, I am starting to see points in the painting world examples. All of them are definitely alternate world/dimensions and are clearly bodies of space. And I'm also glad to see some legit Japanese sources. While having starry skies or suns aren't enough to prove they're universes, and the dimensions being described as "Worldwide" seem rather hyperbolic. And using a dictionary definition doesn't really help much, it is clear that they all take place with their different flows of time. The fact that Mushroom Kingdom was clearly daytime throughout the entire game, while other dimensions do have day and night cycles indicate that. Although, it might be seen as just different planets having their own day and night cycles. And there are a multitude of "Infinite sized" statements. Those do indicate universal shenanigans, but I don't really like taking "Bottomless pit" statements literally. I'm fine with the sand one though. Also, we don't quite know how many power stars were used to create each dimension, but they were clearly shown. And starry skies make them 4-A sized at bare minimum. But here are some drawn conclusions for this.
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The painting stuff is irrelevant to the thread, DDM, as using scans and statements from the Nintendo Power Guide is not acceptable for a Japanese Game. You can't ignore the entire discourse around this.

DarkDragonMedeus said:
Wario World is clearly Universal. It's an official Nintendo of Europe statement and Japanese texts apparently consider that an accurate translation based on what I heard. But it's overall better to find Japanese texts and human translators.
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Wario World is an outlier for Wario at best, and not something that scales to the Black Jewel's AP at worse.

DarkDragonMedeus said:
The Super Mario Galaxy Grand Stars clearly have 2 Low 2-C feats based on both endings. But let me go over each and every one of the 12 boss fights.
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They don't scale to the cast for reasons I went over.

1. Bowser is harmed by merely touching the Grand Star reactor. A tiny portion of the energy supposedly empowering him is enough to burn his tail hot, meaning he does not scale to the full might of the Grand Stars much less the Reactor Collapse which destroys the universe.

2. Peach and Bowser were going to be killed in the destruction of the universe and were shielded by Rosalina.

3. Bowser was reset alongside the rest of the universe and didn't tank anything.

DarkDragonMedeus said:
Super Paper Mario feats are clearly Universal. Between Count Bleck tanking his own Universe, Dimentio possibly surviving. And Mario's party surviving the destruction of World 6. They are Universes since World 4 is a Universe and they're shown to be different times and spaces. So it's Low 2-C. ISL would be applicable for 3-A, but you cannot divide infinity by a finite number. So this is clearly Low 2-C durability. Although, I'm super iffy about scaling the Ancients creations to the universal creations. But Dimentio is a Ancient Tribe member, but he often toys with the party. So iffy about him scaling to anyone.
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The heroes surviving the destruction of World 6 is possibly universal, but the Ancients are a super sketchy argument that has no justification to scale to AP much less the Mario Cast. They created worlds with lost magic-technology over an unknown period of time.

DarkDragonMedeus said:
King Olly does enfold the very Fabric of Reality; which seems like a cut and dry universal feat. And we know he's effecting more than just the Mushroom Kingdom; he's effecting the stars above as well. And literally "All reality" implies the Universe they're in. This is another Universal feat. And it does scale to physical stats since Olly is physically folding the very fabric of the Universe like a sheet of origami paper.
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This isn't a Low 2-C feat. All Olly says is that he is folding the fabric of reality, not that he is folding the fabric of reality on a universal scale.

He was going to fold the paper world into an Origami world, that's all he was doing.

Olly was using an Amp to do it and it's Reality Warping / Spatial Manipulation either way.

There are no seven solid Low 2-C feats, I am sorry DDM.
 
No
Matthew_Schroeder said:
The painting stuff is irrelevant to the thread, DDM, as using scans and statements from the Nintendo Power Guide is not acceptable for a Japanese Game. You can't ignore the entire discourse around this.


Wario World is an outlier for Wario at best, and not something that scales to the Black Jewel's AP at worse.


They don't scale to the cast for reasons I went over.

1. Bowser is harmed by merely touching the Grand Star reactor. A tiny portion of the energy supposedly empowering him is enough to burn his tail hot, meaning he does not scale to the full might of the Grand Stars much less the Reactor Collapse which destroys the universe.

2. Peach and Bowser were going to be killed in the destruction of the universe and were shielded by Rosalina.

3. Bowser was reset alongside the rest of the universe and didn't tank anything.


The heroes surviving the destruction of World 6 is possibly universal, but the Ancients are a super sketchy argument that has no justification to scale to AP much less the Mario Cast. They created worlds with lost magic-technology over an unknown period of time.


This isn't a Low 2-C feat. All Olly says is that he is folding the fabric of reality, not that he is folding the fabric of reality on a universal scale.

He was going to fold the paper world into an Origami world, that's all he was doing.

Olly was using an Amp to do it and it's Reality Warping / Spatial Manipulation either way.

There are no seven solid Low 2-C feats, I am sorry DDM.
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No.
 
Matthew_Schroeder said:
The painting stuff is irrelevant to the thread, DDM, as using scans and statements from the Nintendo Power Guide is not acceptable for a Japanese Game. You can't ignore the entire discourse around this.
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Shifting Sand Land being infinite comes from the game, so it should still be valid
 
Adem_Warlock69 said:
The sand place being infinite comes from the games, so it should still be valid
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Reffering to a place as an "infinite desert" isn't proof it's universal in size. It's obvious hyperbole.

Ari64-SP said:
Hey man, you started it by saying that cal‘s logical arguments “Scummy tactics”
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Cal poisoned the well severely by constantly bringing up unrelated series and saying he wanted to downgrade them out of spite.
 
Wow. Way to completely take what I said and twist it. Only series I said that about was Saint Seiya and I said specifically that it shouldn’t be downgraded. Anyone who knows me knows that I completely want Arceus to be meteor level. Obviously.
 
The_real_cal_howard said:
Wow. Way to completely take what I said and twist it. Only series I said that about was Saint Seiya and I said specifically that it shouldn’t be downgraded. Anyone who knows me knows that I completely want Arceus to be meteor level. Obviously.
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You literally said this:

The_real_cal_howard said:
And trust me, I would try to downgrade SS. Not because I think it’s wrong but it would shut up your incessant praise of it when the consistency argument comes up.
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@Matthew_Schroeder

I was actually going off of Japanese translation scans both from in game, and the Super Mario 3D All Stars remake. For Mario 64

Wario actually shakes and destroys the dimension created by the Evil Black Jewel. It being an outlier should be saved to every other feat is covered. Which I already did.

I actually dismissed half of those feats for other reasons. Base Bowser doesn't scale from his Reactors I mentioned, but in Galaxy 2, Giant Bowser eats the Grand Stars to grow much stronger. Those are the parts I'm addressing; same with King Kaliante and Gobblegut who are physicall amped.

I already addressed the Ancients scaling part even agreeing with you on that portoin, but Mario still has one Low 2-C feat of his. But just one from that game.

King Olly is the "Very" Fabric of Reality, not just the "Fabric of Reality". Textbook definition of "Very Fabric of Reality" is "All time and space." And he's still amped during the final battle the same way. Paper Mario Universe is still the Universe, so.

Also, I'd appreciated it if both sides tried to stay civil, especially other staff members.
 
I require a graph showing the age in relation to how many scans something needs to be a certain level.

Until there is an official graph, I posit that we all agree with the upgrade
 
Cal: OPM and Saint Seiya are the only verses that would not be downgraded under your logic.
Matt: Stop using series I like and saying they’d be downgraded as emotional attachment.
Cal: As much as I’d like to downgrade Seiya, I specifically said the opposite.


This is how the conversation went down on page 1, albeit paraphrased.
 
00potato said:
I think the seven should be enough for a solid ranking.
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The seven are flawed. I addressed it in my response to DDM's post.

Mario 64 is not a real feat.

Mario Galaxy demonstrably doesn't scale to anyone.

Origami King has no evidence of universal scale.

Black Jewel no evidence it scales to offensive AP.

Ancients from SPM are devoid of any context or justification for scaling.
 
Saying

It isn’t doesn’t disprove anything Matthaniel.

When Wario shakes the real, and the Gem even attacks with magic of its own (the lazorz.) it scales.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I was actually going off of Japanese translation scans both from in game, and the Super Mario 3D All Stars remake. For Mario 64
Click to expand...
Mario 64 scans are entirely based on Nintendo Power.

DarkDragonMedeus said:
Wario actually shakes and destroys the dimension created by the Evil Black Jewel. It being an outlier should be saved to every other feat is covered. Which I already did.
Click to expand...
No he doesn't, he defeats the Black Jewel and then the dimension ends. You didn't cover any feat, all that can be established from the Black Jewel is that it can create a dimension, you haven't established why this scale to AP and its offensive attacks.

DarkDragonMedeus said:
I actually dismissed half of those feats for other reasons. Base Bowser doesn't scale from his Reactors I mentioned, but in Galaxy 2, Giant Bowser eats the Grand Stars to grow much stronger. Those are the parts I'm addressing; same with King Kaliante and Gobblegut who are physicall amped.
Click to expand...
Mario Galaxy 2 Bowser has no Universal feats. The physical amps in the galaxy games are demonstrably very small due to the stuff that inconveniences / harms the characters and Mario dealing with them.

DarkDragonMedeus said:
King Olly is the "Very" Fabric of Reality, not just the "Fabric of Reality". Textbook definition of "Very Fabric of Reality" is "All time and space." And he's still amped during the final battle the same way. Paper Mario Universe is still the Universe, so.
Click to expand...
Incorrect. "Very fabric of reality" simply means that he is bending the fabric of reality, not all of space and time.

You are misinterpreting a quote that merely states he is folding space-time to argue it is universal in scale when nothing in the game is on that level. You need evidence beyond a single quote, this is Culex again.
 
The game wouldn't be fun if Rosalina just obliterated everything on screen in an instant or took no damage. Gameplay mechanics clearly nerfed her for the sake of making her a fun playable character. It's no different than goombas and falling rocks being able to hurt her in gameplay. It is not once stated or shown that Mario did some shonen anime training that finally made him as strong as Rosalina. Rosalina isn't even in the main "story" so she doesn't interract with the others in any cutscenes. The "scaling" is based purely on gameplay.

And once again it's not even certain if Rosalina physically withstood the explosion in the first place. This scaling requires the assumption that two feats happened off screen without anyone ever mentioning it.

So even if someone wants to claim that surface area isn't a factor in universal explosions, it doesn't matter. The universal explosion does not scale to Mario. It possibly scales to someone who Mario does not scale to. This is what I mean from "6 degrees of separation from a cosmic feat."
 
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I singled out the ones there are either not universal or would not scale to physical stats, I only held on to examples that would. The only ones I considered legit are Evil Black Jewel, 5 of the Grand Star Powered boss fights; the ones who literally eat the Grand Star to grow giant and much stronger. And Super Paper Mario's Universe nuke durability feat, and King Olly.

The difference is that Culex only warps Time and Space and controls it, King Olly literally folds it all together and compresses it.

Side Note, Rosalina is only universal via her Barrier.
 
It's late here so I'll give more in-depth reasoning later, but I do want to say that I do support a possibly/likely Low 2-C tier for the main cast.

For Mario 64: I still believe the creation of the worlds is a 4-A feat. Vague statements of what are essentially bottomless pits don't prove infinite size, given that bottomless pits are an age-old trope for platformers like Mario. Having a flow of time (which was hardly in question in the first place) does not prove Low 2-C by our standards without universal size. The "encompass all reality with his painting worlds" is very much explicit, comes from a reliable source ("top experts"), and definitely fits our standards for Low 2-C.

For TTYD: The source is from a review, and is hard to accept as canon. Even if we make the assumption that the universe would be destroyed + recreated, it would still be 3-A; recreating the universe in this context would just mean physically remaking everything, which is honestly a worse feat since it's more likely to be done over time. I do agree with Mario & Co eventually scaling to Shadow Queen via the Bonetail logic however.

Wario World is straightforward

For Mario Galaxy: Fairly straightforward. We accept the Grand Star's Low 2-C feat as legit, and only Mario & Peach were stated to be protected from it. Bowser was shown to be injured afterwards implying that he survived due to his own merit rather than some magical reset. And there's countless instances where Mario beats bosses powered by Grand Stars (and Megaleg is explicitly stated to use the power of the Grand Star). That's another two Low 2-C instances here.

For Super Paper Mario: Sammer's Kingdom's feat is very explicit. I've explained before how the void has been stated numerous times to destroy everything, including time, and how Sammer's Kingdom was stated to be completely destroyed making the random debris argument used to debunk this being Low 2-C moot. The void is not shown to be present at any other time in Sammer's Kingdom meaning that this destruction is comparable to the rest of the void's destruction. The Ancients argument is interesting, I can see the Pixls perhaps scaling but the Wracktail argument feels like a reach.

For Origami King: "Folding the very fabric of reality" sounds good, but unless there's any further context showing universal scale, or at least scale beyond planetary, since that's what the latter part of the quote seems to refer to, I don't think this can be used.

After a quick skim through the thread it seems people are trying to use the idea of surface area to debunk the durability-related feats. By definition a Low 2-C feat goes beyond the dimensions that make up one's surface area, and should not be treated the same. Plus given the scale of the feat the characters in question were relatively close to the epicentre anyway.
 
00potato said:
Why would his one offensive magic be massively weaker then the magic he isn’t even attacking with?
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Because magic is inherently magic and illogical. Magic can be used to achieve different results with wildly different levels and have them not scale to each other.

Didn't you like, never watch Harry Potter or any piece of media with wizards in it. "It's the same magic" isn't an argument. What a magic-user can do with a certain magic doesn't necessarily scale to another.
 
Matthew_Schroeder said:
Incorrect. "Very fabric of reality" simply means that he is bending the fabric of reality, not all of space and time.

You are misinterpreting a quote that merely states he is folding space-time to argue it is universal in scale when nothing in the game is on that level. You need evidence beyond a single quote, this is Culex again.
Click to expand...

I'm 99% sure when they mean fabric of reality it usually means universal space-time in scale, as "reality" in fiction is assumed to be "space-time".

Although I agree with Gyro, it needs some more evidence the reality warping universal + it's hax based anyway
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Bowser's Grand Star is in the Planet Reactor. It is super hot Magma that should logically be a big Illions of degrees Celcius via Universe levels of thermal energy. But Bowser getting hurt by it and running around. It's usually considered that "Getting hurt really bad but still surviving" are iffy examples of hiding outliers. But Bowser doesn't appear physically Low 2-C here.

Same as the second, but for Antimatter Reactor not Planet Reactor

... And Mario's party surviving the destruction of World 6. They are Universes since World 4 is a Universe and they're shown to be different times and spaces. So it's Low 2-C. ISL would be applicable for 3-A, but you cannot divide infinity by a finite number. So this is clearly Low 2-C durability. Although, I'm super iffy about scaling the Ancients creations to the universal creations. But Dimentio is a Ancient Tribe member, but he often toys with the party. So iffy about him scaling to anyone.

I disagree with Dream Team examples a great deal. I feel like this is just hiding an outlier. Antasma is 2-B so it's a 2-B feat outright; disguising it as a Low 2-C low end feat just to scale to Mario is just hiding an outlier.
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bowser getting merely hurt rather than obliterated should make him universal as you can't divide infinity

world 6 being destroyed also fried a pure heart which would be 2-B

i also disagree with DT but i wanted to say that antasma isn't 2-B there

Matthew_Schroeder said:
The painting stuff is irrelevant to the thread, DDM, as using scans and statements from the Nintendo Power Guide is not acceptable for a Japanese Game. You can't ignore the entire discourse around this.


Wario World is an outlier for Wario at best, and not something that scales to the Black Jewel's AP at worse.


They don't scale to the cast for reasons I went over.

1. Bowser is harmed by merely touching the Grand Star reactor. A tiny portion of the energy supposedly empowering him is enough to burn his tail hot, meaning he does not scale to the full might of the Grand Stars much less the Reactor Collapse which destroys the universe.

2. Peach and Bowser were going to be killed in the destruction of the universe and were shielded by Rosalina.

3. Bowser was reset alongside the rest of the universe and didn't tank anything.

... but the Ancients are a super sketchy argument that has no justification to scale to AP much less the Mario Cast. They created worlds with lost magic-technology over an unknown period of time.


This isn't a Low 2-C feat. All Olly says is that he is folding the fabric of reality, not that he is folding the fabric of reality on a universal scale.

He was going to fold the paper world into an Origami world, that's all he was doing.

Olly was using an Amp to do it and it's Reality Warping / Spatial Manipulation either way.

There are no seven solid Low 2-C feats, I am sorry DDM.
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why is nintendo power considered invalid? also, some of the scans aren't from nintendo power.

1. i said above why this i wrong
2. and 3. agreed

it's impossible to build an infinite space over time so it should still apply

when does anybody say that they're folding the fabric of reality and not mean the entire universe rather than just a portion? also like medeus said, it was 'very fabric' rather than just 'fabric'

that's like saying that a person who can destroy a town can't be town level because he intended to build a mansion there rather than a whole new town.

tiering system page says that low 2-C is "Characters who are capable of significantly affecting, creating and/or destroying an area of space that is qualitatively larger than an infinitely-sized 3-dimensional space." i.e the very fabric of reality.
 
Ryukama said:
The game wouldn't be fun if Rosalina just obliterated everything on screen in an instant or took no damage. Gameplay mechanics clearly nerfed her for the sake of making her a fun playable character. It's no different than goombas and falling rocks being able to hurt her in gameplay. It is not once stated or shown that Mario did some shonen anime training that finally made him as strong as Rosalina.
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You’d have a point if the two other feats didn’t support them just being strong enough to hurt people with her durability. Not to mention we don’t give two ***** about the meta reasons behind it. And “muh gameplay mechanics” has never been a good argument. It’s not like Pokémon where there’s statement after statement of Legendaries being well beyond normal Pokémon, yet gameplay has them in the same ballpark. She’s treated as yet another cast member once the galaxy games roll by.
Ryukama said:
And once again it's not even certain if Rosalina physically withstood the explosion in the first place. This scaling requires the assumption that two feats happened off screen without anyone ever mentioning it.
Click to expand...
Once again, show me be statement of her using shields on herself. The text only included Mario and Peach.
 
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