Low 2-C Mario: In The Final

[Matthew_Schroeder]

of the Grand Star Powered boss fights

None of them have a single Low 2-C feat. In fact the abundance of bosses using them shows to me that they don't scale, rather the amp is small.

the ones who literally eat the Grand Star to grow giant and much stronger

Bowser cannot handle the full power of the Star Reactor used to make Grand Stars so why would he scale to the full power of one. He'd literally die if he did. We've been over this.

And Super Paper Mario's Universe nuke durability feat

That is the only arguably universal feat here and it's an outlier.

King Olly

King Olly is not Low 2-C and has no difference from Culex. He was folding the fabric of reality. All we get for this is a single statement and that's it. It doesn't tell us anything about whether or not it's on a universal scale, you need visual evidence or more context for that. Either way he's amped.

 

[Sadistic_Sleuth]

"Mario is not Shonen"

"I will make an analogy to Harry Potter"

Chose one

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I'm 99% sure when they mean fabric of reality it usually means universal space-time in scale, as "reality" in fiction is assumed to be "space-time".

Space-time is the fabric of reality.

If I have a sword that can "cut through the fabric of reality", does that mean it can cut the entire physical universe in half? No, it just means it can cut space-time when you swing it.

That's my issue. Fabric of Reality does not mean universal scale on its own without context.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

What is it about Mario that brings the worst in people around here?

In my case I’d be like this regardless. I just am not as lenient with the wiki anymore and it takes little to get me mad at something here.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"I will make an analogy to Harry Potter"

Chose one

I will use the basic analogy to magic users to the magic users of another series yeah when Mario does not have a single AP on the level of these magical creation feats yes.

 

[00potato]

Because magic is inherently magic and illogical. Magic can be used to achieve different results with wildly different levels and have them not scale to each other.

Didn't you like, never watch Harry Potter or any piece of media with wizards in it. "It's the same magic" isn't an argument. What a magic-user can do with a certain magic doesn't necessarily scale to another.

You can’t just ignore logic “because it’s Magic lol.” Most fiction is somewhat illogical, it doesn’t mean you can’t apply any to it for your own ridiculous assertions. Internal logic is important when writing, so is using your head while reading.

Harry Potter would still fall under my point, in a fight why would a wizard use a subpar spell when they have greater ones in a major fight? If a watsonian reason exists, it doesn’t apply to this hentai rock, if you have one for the hentai rock, please present it.

 

[Ryukama]

"And “muh gameplay mechanics” has never been a good argument."

Alright then every instance where Bowser gets owned by lava and Mario gets hurt by goombas or falling rocks is now fair game. I guess it doesn't matter if the game mechanics blatantly contradicts the actual story's feats.

Also why is it that an explicit statement is needed for Rosalina to have used the shields, but this notion that Mario did some DBZ training off screen and got massively stronger as a result doesn't need to be ever stated? (Also like I said I didn't even definitively say she used her shields. I just said it's unknown whether or not she did, because the feat is off screen and the guidebook doesn't specify whether or not she did)

 

[liluzivert]

"And “muh gameplay mechanics” has never been a good argument."

Alright then every instance where Bowser gets owned by lava and Mario gets hurt by goombas are falling rocks is now fair game.

huh? Isn’t he against using gameplay mechanics as an argument

 

[Ari64-SP]

What is it about Mario that brings the worst in people around here?

Well many of the people here have played Mario games. Another way to say this is that we consume Mario games. Its a fan theory that Mario is a psych, and if you are what you eat...

 

[00potato]

What is it about Mario that brings the worst in people around here?

I mean Mario is a Masonic conspiracy.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

For TTYD: The source is from a review, and is hard to accept as canon. Even if we make the assumption that the universe would be destroyed + recreated, it would still be 3-A; recreating the universe in this context would just mean physically remaking everything, which is honestly a worse feat since it's more likely to be done over time. I do agree with Mario & Co eventually scaling to Shadow Queen via the Bonetail logic however.

I went over why the feat is only planetary in my posts, please check them out. The world in question in the actual game is very clearly just the planet.

For Mario Galaxy: Fairly straightforward. We accept the Grand Star's Low 2-C feat as legit, and only Mario & Peach were stated to be protected from it. Bowser was shown to be injured afterwards implying that he survived due to his own merit rather than some magical reset. And there's countless instances where Mario beats bosses powered by Grand Stars (and Megaleg is explicitly stated to use the power of the Grand Star). That's another two Low 2-C instances here.

It's not straightforward, as Bowser does not scale to the Grand Star (Merely being exposed to the energy of the Star Reactor burns him, even when "amped". Bowser is only using a fraction o the full power of the Grand Star and certainly doesn't scale to the collapse of the reactor that destroys the universe.

Secondly, Bowser scratching his head and waking up confused isn't evidence that he survived the reset. Rather, he just ended up on the Mushroom Kingdom again and is as confused as Mario and Peach. He has no physical evidence of injuries in him, and even if he had those could easily be from the can of whoop-ass Mario delivered to him rather from the universe blowing up.

For Origami King: "Folding the very fabric of reality" sounds good, but unless there's any further context showing universal scale, or at least scale beyond planetary, since that's what the latter part of the quote seems to refer to, I don't think this can be used.

There is no context, and the whole gfame has nothing cosmic going on in scale as you never go to space nor does Olly ever fold any star. It's just a line.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

What is it about Mario that brings the worst in people around here?

I think that people are just too invested in their favorite series and get really aggressive when they don't have their way. It's not just Mario, it's the whole wiki atmosphere :c

 

[InfiniteDay]

I think that people are just too invested in their favorite series and get really aggressive when they don't have their way. It's not just Mario, it's the whole wiki atmosphere :c

Ironic that this comes from you, but your point is valid.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

None of them have a single Low 2-C feat. In fact the abundance of bosses using them shows to me that they don't scale, rather the amp is small.

Can't the same be said for Power Stars giving a 4-A amp?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@Ryukama Mario levels up all the time in the M&L series, Paper Mario series, and Legend of the Seven Stars; JRPGs are very much Shounen like when it comes to "Getting stronger". Also oof?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Can't the same be said for Power Stars giving a 4-A amp?

YES.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Ryukama Mario levels up all the time in the M&L series, Paper Mario series, and Legend of the Seven Stars; JRPGs are very much Shounen like when it comes to "Getting stronger". Also oof?

Mario goes back to Lv. 1 in every other RPG. Mario is not a Shounen and there is no continuity

 

[TheRexor28]

wario can harm black jewel, black jewel's dura is low 2-C, so he scales. it isn't an outlier if medeus's points are right. plus like i said, the sun has low 2-C durability for sustaining the universe.

Space-time is the fabric of reality.

If I have a sword that can "cut through the fabric of reality", does that mean it can cut the entire physical universe in half? No, it just means it can cut space-time when you swing it.

That's my issue. Fabric of Reality does not mean universal scale on its own without context.

it says "the very fabric of reality", show me a verse where this statement or something similar means just a portion rather than all of it

None of them have a single Low 2-C feat. In fact the abundance of bosses using them shows to me that they don't scale, rather the amp is small.


Bowser cannot handle the full power of the Star Reactor used to make Grand Stars so why would he scale to the full power of one. He'd literally die if he did. We've been over this.

any portion of infinity is still infinity, so still low 2-C

 

[liluzivert]

YES.

literally anyone when they talk to matt

 

[TheRexor28]

haha 500th comment

Mario goes back to Lv. 1 in every other RPG. Mario is not a Shounen and there is no continuity

that's just a game mechanic but i agree that there's no continuity

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Guys please, no more brick wall jokes...

 

[Ryukama]

Mario goes back to Lv. 1 in every other RPG. Mario is not a Shounen and there is no continuity

Also if we're going to use M&L then I guess that definitively settles that Paper Mario and Mario are two different people.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

wario can harm black jewel, black jewel's dura is low 2-C, so he scales. it isn't an outlier if medeus's points are right. plus like i said, the sun has low 2-C durability for sustaining the universe.

Just pointing out what is in a profile with no justification isn't an argument.

The feat is incredibly outlierish and I have no confidence of Wario being this strong.

And I don't care what is in another series I'm talking about Mario.

it says "the very fabric of reality", show me a verse where this statement or something similar means just a portion rather than all of it

Every single verse where people say something can cut or punch through the fabric of reality.

"The very" is just to emphasize how impressive it is that he is now folding the fabric of reality, it doesn't mean he is folding the entire universe.

any portion of infinity is still infinity, so still low 2-C

You cannot backscale from Power Sources without feats. Nobody cares about "Portion of infinity" here, Bowser doesn't scale to the Grand Star we've been over this.

 

[liluzivert]

Also if we're going to use M&L then I guess that definitively settles that Paper Mario and Mario are two different people.

what?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

that's just a game mechanic but i agree that there's no continuity

Leveling up is also a game mechanic you can't use levels as argument for "Mario gets stronger over time" is my issue.

 

[Moxxaccinocapuccino]

literally anyone when they talk to matt

making fun of matt stopped being funny a couple responses ago

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Mario goes back to Lv. 1 in every other RPG. Mario is not a Shounen and there is no continuity

Yes, I totally remember JRPGs having their protags keep their upgraded stats in the sequels.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Also if we're going to use M&L then I guess that definitively settles that Paper Mario and Mario are two different people.

I couldn’t care if they’re two different people. Whether they are or aren’t, they scale to each other.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I couldn’t care if they’re two different people. Whether they are or aren’t, they scale to each other.

They don't, a single crossover game is not predicated on ignoring the different feats both universes have.

 

[Ryukama]

what?

Paper Mario is explicitly and undeniably a separate person from Mario according to the Mario and Luigi games, which people always try to discard. So if we're really going to use Mario and Luigi's level up system to say Mario canonically does DBZ training off screen, then Mario is also canonically a different person from Paper Mario. You don't get to cherrypick certain aspects from these game to be canon.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Super Star saga remake actually argues their the same; and even the creators of Mario literally keep saying they're the same guy. Also, Paper Jam takes place after Dream Team, each game references previous games and each other constantly, and the Paper Mario from Paper Jam has a completely different origin story from the mainline Paper Mario games.

 

[Ryukama]

Anyways once again, Rosalina is a post-game unlockable. She is not in any of the story cutscenes. If there was, say, a cutscene where Mario and Rosalina fought on par then sure that might give some credence to Mario now being canonically as strong as Rosalina. But the only instances of them actually being "comparable" is within the same gameplay where she can also be hurt by goombas or falling rocks. This is why we don't use gameplay mechanics to determine scaling.

And again if it's okay to make unfounded speculations like "Mario did DBZ training off screen, got orders of magnitude stronger and it was just never mentioned" then we can also say "Rosalina used her shields to withstand the blast off screen and it was just never mentioned." Why can one off screen, unmentioned thing be asserted but not the other?

Additionally, so are we supposed to make "Pre-3D World Training" and "Post-3D World Training" keys since Mario apparently got massively stronger in between those timeframes due to training?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Super Star saga remake actually argues their the same

How.

and even the creators of Mario literally keep saying they're the same guy

We've been over this, they literally don't. Miyamoto was talking about how Mario has no continuity and is like an actor that can be fit into many different scenarios and genres, so there ultimately is only "one Mario" like there is only one "Bugs Bunny".

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I don't think key proposals are neceasary, and that's only going to create their own problems. And the Paper Mario block was described as "Mario's earlier adventures" in the remake. Also, Paper Mario games reference Super Mario Sunshine and Luigi's Mansion as being canon to Paper Mario.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I can settle for a variable or possibly, but the feat can’t be ignored.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

They don't, a single crossover game is not predicated on ignoring the different feats both universes have.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I can settle for a variable or possibly, but the feat can’t be ignored.

I am not ignoring the single Low 2-C durability feat Mario has.

I'm saying it's an outlier in the face of everything else.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also, Paper Mario games reference Super Mario Sunshine and Luigi's Mansion as being canon to Paper Mario

This only means that parallel paper-versions of these events happened

 

[liluzivert]

I don’t even understand what’s happening on this thread anymore. All these random topics being thrown around and the opposition shotgunning like wtf

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

So.....

If Bowser was merely injured by a Low 2-C, wouldn't mario heavily downscale since he can tank some of bowser's attacks??

Unless Bowser is a stone wall and he has 4-A AP