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Low 2-C Mario: In The Final

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Not open for further replies.
Maverick_Zero_X said:
Should probably clarify that Dimentio D strengthened/amped the protagonists...

Also, this.
Screenshot_82.png
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But he also amped himself, so they'd be back to square one.

EDIT* Ninja'd
 
SMB3 is a stage play
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And like that, credibility went out the window faster than a hawk kept inside a house.
Dino_Ranger_Black said:
No. We are not scaling anyone into Low 2-C. Honestly, scaling anybody to low 2-C not only is off putting but pretty much goes against the consistency and coherence to begin with. Not to mention it also means scaling everyone else and I speak for everyone when I say low 2-C Toad is ridiculous. I really don't know why we keep getting this repeated topic.
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This is basic arguing from incredulity, and there are no arguments other than that from you in this post. I don’t think Persona’s high school teens being as strong as they are makes sense but they have the feats so I have to take it. If Toad has scaling to Low 2-C than so be it.
 
The_real_cal_howard said:
Staff aren’t gods. We get ridiculed enough for this mindset as it is.
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The_real_cal_howard said:
This is basic arguing from incredulity. I don’t think Persona’s high school teens being as strong as they are makes sense but they have the feats so I have to take it. If Toad has scaling to Low 2-C than so be it.
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The arguments have been severely debunked, though. Meaning no upgrades are going through. The issues with the feats have been exposed. The scaling is inconsistent and flawed.
 
I feel like whenever low 2-C Mario is mentioned most of the arguments get ignored by staff members who don’t have a good counterargument most of the time and will get debunked by regular members but because they’re staff it happens anyway 😔
 
Matthew_Schroeder said:
The arguments have been severely debunked, though. Meaning no upgrades are going through. The issues with the feats have been exposed. The scaling is inconsistent and flawed.
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They haven’t been debunked, let alone severely. Every staff besides you have been saying “it’s weird so no”, and half of your arguments fall through when applied to any other situation. Let’s address the arguments against it.


Messes with scaling? How much more than tier 4?
Surface area for tier 2? Never done before. Clear bias if you’re pointing it here.
Sammer’s Kingdom is vague? It’s not. They got hurt but survived. Not to mention you conceded earlier.
Black Jewel doesn’t scale to his feat? We treat sustaining universes as an AP feat. Have yet to see one where it hasn’t.
Rosalina in 3D world isn’t canon? A whole two extra worlds she’s in after you unlock her. Not to mention “lol gameplay” isn’t an actual argument.
Rosalina used shields for herself? Show the statement because the one that exists only says Mario and Peach.

Again, the reason this has gone so far with so much opposition is because it goes against the status quo. If this is so illegitimate, give me another staff member to debunk all three of the arguments instead of just disagreeing with it because they don’t like the idea of Peach for example being uni, which DRB has shown to be the case here.
 
But anyway Matthew makes more sense here (except in obvious aspects like the Low 2-C explosion part), and both sides are making tons of logical errors for the sake of their respective argument. This is really going nowhere, and not many people can keep up you 2 can, so can we have a summary on the talking points and the arguments for both (no bias).
 
I agree with most of the things Matt said. As for Cal, I'm sorry but I agree with the things said about him here, the thread is already proven to be a mess and to have tried to throw feat dishonestly to see what sticks, but instead of recognizing that (to make the evaluation smoother and encourage things like it to not happen in the future) and try to organize things 1 by 1 or something Cal just basically added his own set of feats to the mess while not being particularly partial about them. I don't think he's working with the proper priorities and that's a problem for the people who do.
 
The_real_cal_howard said:
They haven’t been debunked, let alone severely. Every staff besides you have been saying “it’s weird so no”, and half of your arguments fall through when applied to any other situation.
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Ryukama has been active in the discussion Cal, people are very against this.

Get on Peach Drip

Eq2EQy4W4AUWJJm
 
Okay let’s just end this pain

Matt, Ryu, Weekly, Dino, Ant and Efi all oppose the upgrade. Does this have any reason to go on?
 
Dino_Ranger_Black said:
Then it's settled, its not happening.
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Yes. All hail the random people on the internet that know better than everyone else because another random person on the internet gave them permission.
Maverick_Zero_X said:
Okay let’s just end this pain

Matt, Ryu, Weekly, Dino, Ant and Efi all oppose the upgrade. Does this have any reason to go on?
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yes. Because only one has provided reasoning besides “sounds odd”
 
Ryukama said something about surface area in tier 2, which is disingenuous. His arguments hold as much weight as anyone who’s not you.
 
here are my thoughts
DatOneWeeb said:
Super Mario 64:
As we know in Super Mario 64, Bowser created worlds within the paintings, so this is something I do not need to talk about. What matters truly is the sizes of these worlds. How I view the sizes of the worlds is each of them are a separate universe.

- "Without a second thought, Mario jumps at the painting. As he is drawn into it, another world opens before his very eyes."

Now, when you're usually saying "another" something, you are usually comparing it to something similar. The definition of world varies from context, however I believe they should be meaning universe. The definition of world can mean country or planet. However, as we already know, the paintings are not simply limited to being a planet. Visually we can see a sun in the sky, already proving it's much larger than a planet. What's more well known is that there are stars at night as stated by Wiggler.

- "I don't really need it anymore, anyway-- I can see the stars through my ceiling at night."

So much like real life, Wiggler can see stars during night time, once again proving that the term world does not simply mean planet here. However, there is more evidence as to how the word "world" means universe in context, and I will get to that.

- "Bowser stole the Power Stars that protected the castle and hid them away in magical painting worlds."

- "It is assumed that Bowser, with the power of the Stars at his disposal, intends to extend his reach over the real world."





Now, make what you will of what Bowser will do, that's not important. What is however is their terms. They will keep referring to the paintings as "worlds". Now when they talk about Mario's world, let's look at the terms. "The real world", "our world", and "all of reality". All of these are used as synonyms for the general term "world".

As stated by the universe standards, I quote:

- "If they're stated to mirror "The Universe" or "Our Universe" or "The Real World", they would refer to being universes."

The term real world can mean universe, so that is another plus to the term world being universe. Additionally "all of reality" would 100% have to refer to as universe. So this means they do refer to the word "world" as universe, and that is what they keep calling Bowser's paintings. Thus the term "another world" in 64 means another universe. However this isn't all of my evidence either.

- "When Mario, who received a letter from Princess Peach, arrived at the castle, it was strangely quiet. As he went inside the castle, Bowser's laughter echoed out of nowhere. Thus begins an adventure to save Princess Peach on worldwide levels inside the paintings. A 3D action game of the Super Mario series released at the same time as the NINTENDO 64 console. The introduction of the analog Control Stick set a new standard for later games in the series."

According to the official Cambridge and Oxford dictionaries, the term "worldwide" can also mean universal. Used as supporting evidence.

- "Three well-timed Pound-the-Ground stomps will put Big Boo back in his extra-dimensional place."

Big Boo was stated to come from an extra-dimensional place, which would be Big Boo's Haunt as that is where the battle takes place. The term "extra-dimensional" would also mean universe, or higher.

- "If you sink with your head, you won't be able to breath. The black places are very dangerous!! They are infinite underworlds!"

So in Shifting Sand Land, that world is stated to be infinite in size, which can indeed support or even outright mean universe. There's also another mention for it.

- "The clock tower has no bottom: that's the pits. And the pendulums swing back and forth, threating to knock Mario into the endless abyss."

A synonym for the word "infinite" is used again. Tick Tock Clock was stated to have no bottom and has an endless abyss. Going back to the universe standards:

- "If the size of the realms described has having infinite sizes or other synonyms, that should strongly indicate them being universes."

With all of this in mind, this should be enough evidence that these worlds are universes. However, one last argument I can add is that each world runs on separate time.

Going back to what Wiggler stated, he says he can see the stars at night. This means a day and night cycle exists, meaning there is a passage of time. This is also supported by the Hoot.

- "Whooo's there? Whooo woke me up? It's still daylight-- I should be sleeping!"

This means there is indeed a passage of time in these worlds. Now, we know their flow of time runs differently due to the background. It is daytime at the Mushroom Kingdom and in some levels. However, certain stages such as Big Boo's Haunt, Mario World (yes that is the name), and Wet Dry World have each displayed a different time of day.

Thus Power Stars are capable of creating universes, with only one being needed. This is because each special world, Bowser world, secret world, or Mario/Luigi/Wario world only has a single Power Star within. And scaling yadda yadda, cast beats the users, you get the idea. In conclusion, each world is a universe.


Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door:​

The Shadow Queen, the main villain, created the Crystal Stars. It was stated that the Crystal Stars have the power to destroy the universe.

- "No, Peach is in outer space with the X-Nauts. They need the seven Crystal Stars to help them blow up the universe."

This is also supported by in-game text.

- "That's all that matters. Because if they do get it, then once again, this town... No...the ENTIRE WORLD could be destroyed!"

- "I know that. However, we need to use the Huge Cannon to get to the Moon. If we don't, the world will end."
_ "The world will end? Ah, we have problem. You see, due to a couple of reasons, we can't use the cannon right now."
- "The entrance to the Dark Palace is open. Stop them before they hurt Peach and destroy the world."


You can use Crtl + F to find these statements. These are pretty blatant.

Now, this all makes sense for 3-A, but for it to be Low 2-C, it was also stated that they would use its power to recreate it.

- "And then I, Grodus, will build a new world!"

- "A perfect, ideal world... Yes. A world made by me, about me, and for me!"

Now comes from scaling. Obviously the Shadow Queen scales, but the others can't harm her without help! At least, not at the start. This is because of Bonetail, who is actually stated to be the strongest boss in the game.

- "That's Bonetail. He's the oldest brother of Hooktail. ...So old he's just bones, in fact. Wow. Now THAT'S old. His body's Max HP is 200, his Attack is 8, and his Defense is 2. He has various breaths that might confuse us or put us to sleep. When his HP gets low, he'll recover...or reanimate, as the case may be. He's probably stronger than the last boss, seriously! Let's do this right!"

- "The oldest brother of Hooktail. He's just bones now. He's incredibly tough...Maybe even the toughest?"

- "Muster every ounce of courage, and prepare for the toughest fight of all."

Because of this, Bonetail is above The Shadow Queen, who Mario and co can now scale above.


Wario World:​

The Black Jewel is already accepted as Low 2-C here. There is nothing much more for me to say other than Wario destroys the Black Jewel and can take all of its attacks.


Super Mario Galaxy:​

Much like before, the Grand Star is also accepted as Low 2-C here. Now, what needs to be noted for is scaling. Yes, the cast does scale in base forms. This is because Mario/Luigi have defeated several enemies amped by the Grand Stars in both Galaxy 1 & 2.

The Megaleg, Bowser Junior, King Kaliente, and Bowser use them to amplify themselves in Galaxy 1.

Gobblegut, Megahammer, Boomsday Machine, and Bowser... again, also do the same. So there is no reason why Mario and Luigi do not scale to a Grand Star. Onto the next feat.

Bowser 100% survived the universe being reset in Galaxy. The argument has been used, but I do not by the counters.

- "Mario and Peach manage to escape Bowser's immediate fate, but the reactor's force is too strong."
- "Even Bowser is there, shaken by his narrow escape from a horrible fate."

So as stated, Bowser's "fate" was the reset, however it's clearly implied he survived it and shaken from it. We also know Bowser was not shielded by Rosalina, as it was only stated Mario and Peach were. Bowser even looks damaged by it.

Super Paper Mario:​

In Super Paper Mario, Mario, Peach, and Bowser survive the Incomplete Void, during its destruction of the Sammer Kingdom Dimension. As we know, The Void was stated to have the power to destroy everything and all dimensions/worlds/existence. It was also stated that it can destroy space and time. This should be another blatant feat, but some people think Timpani saved them before it happens. This is first proven wrong by how everyone looks harmed. Though other statements back it up.

- "At the 30th gate, The Void will reach its mature state and destroy the kingdom of the Sammer Guys-with you still in it."

There is another feat, this involves The Ancient Tribe. They are already listed as 2-B on their profile, however it should be noted that the feat there was done with everyone, this only covers at least one.

- "With the help of the Pixls, the Ancients built amazing worlds."

This statement, along with the fact that in-lore they made each dimension in SPM such as Flipside, means that The Ancients' have Low 2-C magic on their own. But how does this apply to the Four Heroes of Light? With scaling.

The Ancients can create worlds, but they can also create living beings such as the Pixls and others. And during the Pixl Uprising, it was stated that they were able to defeat them.

- "The Ancients were overthrown and enslaved by the Pixl Revolt by the Pixl Queen."

What this means is that their own creations actually scale to themselves. It's also implied that the Pixls who did this are the one you find during the game, further proving the scaling. In addition to this, the four heroes also fight their other creations. Wracktail and Shadoo.

- "The Ancients locked me in this wretched place! I am the wrathful god, Wracktail!"

Wracktail (and Shadoo) considered enough of a threat to The Ancients that they were forced to lock the two inside the Pit of 100 Trials. Mario defeats them both.

And for the final nail in the coffin, Mimi herself overpowers Merlee, an actual Ancient.

- "This charmer uses the sun to work her magic. She is a descendant of the Tribe of Ancients." (Merlee's Catch Card)

During chapter 2, Merlee was stated to lose to Mimi and needed Mario's help to defeat her.

- "I'm afraid that Mimi freak was too robust, and I too weak..."

And no, she did not lose from Mimi's invulnerability, as she can remove it herself.


Mario & Luigi Dream Team:​

In Dream Team, the second to last boss, Antasma, has seems to have powerful control over the dream world.

In the first display, we can see he has spatial manipulation over the dream world. Decent, but we need a bit more. Well, it's also shown he corrupt or even change a dream into a nightmare. As when Mario falls asleep, Antasma is shown larger and chases down Mario. The backgrounds represents a nightmare, as it does not resemble any other dream world. In it are portals that lead Mario in a place full of saws. Now this should be Antasma's doing, after all he made Mario sleep and everything in his nightmare helps Antasma.

Now you could simply argue Mario is just having a bad nightmare, but that doesn't make a lot of sense. This is because everyone else in Pi'illo Island has only displayed having good dreams that go inside of the Dream Stone. Now some of you can ask, "but how do we know none of those are nightmares". This is because the dark version of the Dream Stone, the Dark Stone, was destroyed.

Mario should be comparable to him as he can harm Antasma and survive hits from him without Dreamy Luigi.


Paper Mario The Origami King:​

The main villain of TOK, King Olly, had his main goal to fold the whole world.

During King Olly's second form, the background is becoming messed up. After this, King Olly states he is actually folding the fabric of reality, which we accept that term as Low 2-C.

- "Look around you, Olivia. I'm folding the very fabric of reality. Origami embodies the limitless power of transformation... With this power... I shall rid the world of all pathetic, paper-thin beings!"

Since he is changing the entire structure of the fabric, this makes the feat Low 2-C. Mario overpowers King Olly on his own.


Conclusion:​

In total, that gives us 9 Low 2-C feats for the base forms. You can decide if it's Likely Low 2-C, Possibly Low 2-C, or just Low 2-C. Please do not derail and actually read each point carefully.
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SM64: agreed, but big boo's haunt isn't in a painting so it could be portal creation

TTYD: world probably means planet but the blow up the universe might apply (although it could be high 3-A rather than low 2-C)

wario world: agreed

smg1/2: grand star is good, not sure about bowser

spm: the void frys a pure heart so that'd be 2-B, mimi's feat is good, pixl feat is good

MLDT: big maybe, seems like a stretch to assume that he made the entire dream universe into a nightmare

TOK: possibly agreed

Matthew_Schroeder said:
Ryukama did Cal.
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2/5 who disagree (not counting ant cuz i didn't see him say either way) have good arguments which still isn't very good
 
the sad part is, I doubt it’ll happen anyway. Ant will just look at them say no and then close the thread. I have no hope that this will go anywhere.
 
If this is closed then someone should then open a thread to talk about if the Ancients should be considered Low 2-C or not. It was put into question here and Dimentio has it as part of his reasoning for being at that level.

That would be talking one topic at a time and only aiming more accuracy, as it doesn't even change his tier. Idk if Dimentio will be downgraded in the future but if that happens then that would come as a sheer conclusion.
 
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[Certain Character] from [Certain Franchise] being at a certain level isn't a good argument that another character should be upgraded to. My problem with the upgrade attempts are structural.
 
First of all, I am starting to see points in the painting world examples. All of them are definitely alternate world/dimensions and are clearly bodies of space. And I'm also glad to see some legit Japanese sources. While having starry skies or suns aren't enough to prove they're universes, and the dimensions being described as "Worldwide" seem rather hyperbolic. And using a dictionary definition doesn't really help much, it is clear that they all take place with their different flows of time. The fact that Mushroom Kingdom was clearly daytime throughout the entire game, while other dimensions do have day and night cycles indicate that. Although, it might be seen as just different planets having their own day and night cycles. And there are a multitude of "Infinite sized" statements. Those do indicate universal shenanigans, but I don't really like taking "Bottomless pit" statements literally. I'm fine with the sand one though. Also, we don't quite know how many power stars were used to create each dimension, but they were clearly shown. And starry skies make them 4-A sized at bare minimum. But here are some drawn conclusions for this.

Also, encompassing "All Reality" doesn't mean he creates or destroys the Universe containing the Mushroom Kingdom. It means he can conquer it over time by recruiting forces from the painting realms. But he himself doesn't appear Universal physically just from that statement alone.
  1. Option 1 would be remove them as examples of 4-A feats for individual Power Stars. But perhaps Power Stars have Low 2-C feats in large quantities. I'm super skeptical about dividing them to individual power stars though and thing those power stars should use their own individual feats. Individual power stars scale from Mario regardless that they're designed to transform otherwise fodder enemies into boss fights
  2. Keep them as 4-A individually and pass the universal stuff as hyperboles.
For the Paper Mario TTYD feat, I agree that that is not Universal. The Universe statement appears exclusive to a Nintendo Power Review which is an American company who's job is to tell you how good the game is and whether or not you should get it. Furthermore, world can mean universe, but it's more default to assume it means planet Earth. Also there really isn't much reason to do so. And the X-Nauts having a moon based also doesn't mean much to say world is larger than planet sized. We also don't see the moon covered in a cloud of darkness.
  • Basically, this is only a planet level feat, not a universal feat. Please excuse it.
Wario World is clearly Universal. It's an official Nintendo of Europe statement and Japanese texts apparently consider that an accurate translation based on what I heard. But it's overall better to find Japanese texts and human translators.
  • This one is a solid Low 2-C feat via a parallel universe statement, but wouldn't hurt to look into Japanese scans.
The Super Mario Galaxy Grand Stars clearly have 2 Low 2-C feats based on both endings. But let me go over each and every one of the 12 boss fights.
  1. In Super Mario Galaxy 1; Megalegs is amped by a Grand Star. Mario defeats him by making use of Bullet Bills to break the glass. Mario would not scale and this is not an example feat.
  2. Bowser's Grand Star is in the Planet Reactor. It is super hot Magma that should logically be a big Illions of degrees Celcius via Universe levels of thermal energy. But Bowser getting hurt by it and running around. It's usually considered that "Getting hurt really bad but still surviving" are iffy examples of hiding outliers. But Bowser doesn't appear physically Low 2-C here.
  3. Grand Star is in the Doom Ship. Mario destroys it by physically whacking coconuts, but I'm not sure if Grand Star amps durability of the outer wood. So I'm skeptical about this example
  4. Same as the second, but for Antimatter Reactor not Planet Reactor
  5. King Kaliante is physically amped by Grand Star, so he would be Low 2-C by nature.
  6. Bowser has the Grand Star in the Galaxy Reactor. It doesn't scale to physical stats from that, and it's the same case as 2 and 4. But it also explodes and resets the universe. It's not really implied Bowser tanks it, more like that he dies but then he gets revived when time resets.
  7. Gobblegut is physically amped by Grand Star similar to King Kaliante, would be Low 2-C physically in nature via that.
  8. Bowser is amped, he'd be physically Universal
  9. Iffy about MegaHammer via similar reasons to Mega Legs and Doom Ship
  10. Bowser again is amped physically
  11. Boomsday is iffy for similar reasons as the other mechanical examples
  12. Bowser is physically amped, and the defeat causes a super massive black hole covering all space and time. So this is physically Universal. Also Mario punches stuff into him, so we give Mario the credit and not some random rocks.
  13. That's 5 Low 2-C physical feats. But the iffy part is why Bowser would even use Grand Stars. But Mario fights Base Bowser 3 times in galaxy one despite having one physically amped Grand Star. So that maybe be excausable, but still staying neutral.
Super Paper Mario feats are clearly Universal. Between Count Bleck tanking his own Universe, Dimentio possibly surviving. And Mario's party surviving the destruction of World 6. They are Universes since World 4 is a Universe and they're shown to be different times and spaces. So it's Low 2-C. ISL would be applicable for 3-A, but you cannot divide infinity by a finite number. So this is clearly Low 2-C durability. Although, I'm super iffy about scaling the Ancients creations to the universal creations. But Dimentio is a Ancient Tribe member, but he often toys with the party. So iffy about him scaling to anyone.
  • Solid Low 2-C feats here, but then there are some that are iffy.
I disagree with Dream Team examples a great deal. I feel like this is just hiding an outlier. Antasma is 2-B so it's a 2-B feat outright; disguising it as a Low 2-C low end feat just to scale to Mario is just hiding an outlier.
  • This is a 2-B feat, plain and simple. But it's also an outlier.
King Olly does enfold the very Fabric of Reality; which seems like a cut and dry universal feat. And we know he's effecting more than just the Mushroom Kingdom; he's effecting the stars above as well. And literally "All reality" implies the Universe they're in. This is another Universal feat. And it does scale to physical stats since Olly is physically folding the very fabric of the Universe like a sheet of origami paper.
  • This is a Low 2-C feat
So in conclusion, we have 7 Low 2-C feats here that would inherently scale to Mario. I'm going to be neutral on the Outlier debate. Also, Super Dimentio is clearly 2-B; he very much eats the entire multiverse. And his base form is Low 2-C because it's implied he was with Count Bleck when Bleck destroyed his first Universe and tanked it.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
First of all, I am starting to see points in the painting world examples. All of them are definitely alternate world/dimensions and are clearly bodies of space. And I'm also glad to see some legit Japanese sources. While having starry skies or suns aren't enough to prove they're universes, and the dimensions being described as "Worldwide" seem rather hyperbolic. And using a dictionary definition doesn't really help much, it is clear that they all take place with their different flows of time. The fact that Mushroom Kingdom was clearly daytime throughout the entire game, while other dimensions do have day and night cycles indicate that. Although, it might be seen as just different planets having their own day and night cycles. And there are a multitude of "Infinite sized" statements. Those do indicate universal shenanigans, but I don't really like taking "Bottomless pit" statements literally. I'm fine with the sand one though. Also, we don't quite know how many power stars were used to create each dimension, but they were clearly shown. And starry skies make them 4-A sized at bare minimum. But here are some drawn conclusions for this.

Also, encompassing "All Reality" doesn't mean he creates or destroys the Universe containing the Mushroom Kingdom. It means he can conquer it over time by recruiting forces from the painting realms. But he himself doesn't appear Universal physically just from that statement alone.
  1. Option 1 would be remove them as examples of 4-A feats for individual Power Stars. But perhaps Power Stars have Low 2-C feats in large quantities. I'm super skeptical about dividing them to individual power stars though and thing those power stars should use their own individual feats. Individual power stars scale from Mario regardless that they're designed to transform otherwise fodder enemies into boss fights
  2. Keep them as 4-A individually and pass the universal stuff as hyperboles.
For the Paper Mario TTYD feat, I agree that that is not Universal. The Universe statement appears exclusive to a Nintendo Power Review which is an American company who's job is to tell you how good the game is and whether or not you should get it. Furthermore, world can mean universe, but it's more default to assume it means planet Earth. Also there really isn't much reason to do so. And the X-Nauts having a moon based also doesn't mean much to say world is larger than planet sized. We also don't see the moon covered in a cloud of darkness.
  • Basically, this is only a planet level feat, not a universal feat. Please excuse it.
Wario World is clearly Universal. It's an official Nintendo of Europe statement and Japanese texts apparently consider that an accurate translation based on what I heard. But it's overall better to find Japanese texts and human translators.
  • This one is a solid Low 2-C feat via a parallel universe statement, but wouldn't hurt to look into Japanese scans.
The Super Mario Galaxy Grand Stars clearly have 2 Low 2-C feats based on both endings. But let me go over each and every one of the 12 boss fights.
  1. In Super Mario Galaxy 1; Megalegs is amped by a Grand Star. Mario defeats him by making use of Bullet Bills to break the glass. Mario would not scale and this is not an example feat.
  2. Bowser's Grand Star is in the Planet Reactor. It is super hot Magma that should logically be a big Illions of degrees Celcius via Universe levels of thermal energy. But Bowser getting hurt by it and running around. It's usually considered that "Getting hurt really bad but still surviving" are iffy examples of hiding outliers. But Bowser doesn't appear physically Low 2-C here.
  3. Grand Star is in the Doom Ship. Mario destroys it by physically whacking coconuts, but I'm not sure if Grand Star amps durability of the outer wood. So I'm skeptical about this example
  4. Same as the second, but for Antimatter Reactor not Planet Reactor
  5. King Kaliante is physically amped by Grand Star, so he would be Low 2-C by nature.
  6. Bowser has the Grand Star in the Galaxy Reactor. It doesn't scale to physical stats from that, and it's the same case as 2 and 4. But it also explodes and resets the universe. It's not really implied Bowser tanks it, more like that he dies but then he gets revived when time resets.
  7. Gobblegut is physically amped by Grand Star similar to King Kaliante, would be Low 2-C physically in nature via that.
  8. Bowser is amped, he'd be physically Universal
  9. Iffy about MegaHammer via similar reasons to Mega Legs and Doom Ship
  10. Bowser again is amped physically
  11. Boomsday is iffy for similar reasons as the other mechanical examples
  12. Bowser is physically amped, and the defeat causes a super massive black hole covering all space and time. So this is physically Universal. Also Mario punches stuff into him, so we give Mario the credit and not some random rocks.
  13. That's 5 Low 2-C physical feats. But the iffy part is why Bowser would even use Grand Stars. But Mario fights Base Bowser 3 times in galaxy one despite having one physically amped Grand Star. So that maybe be excausable, but still staying neutral.
Super Paper Mario feats are clearly Universal. Between Count Bleck tanking his own Universe, Dimentio possibly surviving. And Mario's party surviving the destruction of World 6. They are Universes since World 4 is a Universe and they're shown to be different times and spaces. So it's Low 2-C. ISL would be applicable for 3-A, but you cannot divide infinity by a finite number. So this is clearly Low 2-C durability. Although, I'm super iffy about scaling the Ancients creations to the universal creations. But Dimentio is a Ancient Tribe member, but he often toys with the party. So iffy about him scaling to anyone.
  • Solid Low 2-C feats here, but then there are some that are iffy.
I disagree with Dream Team examples a great deal. I feel like this is just hiding an outlier. Antasma is 2-B so it's a 2-B feat outright; disguising it as a Low 2-C low end feat just to scale to Mario is just hiding an outlier.
  • This is a 2-B feat, plain and simple. But it's also an outlier.
King Olly does enfold the very Fabric of Reality; which seems like a cut and dry universal feat. And we know he's effecting more than just the Mushroom Kingdom; he's effecting the stars above as well. And literally "All reality" implies the Universe they're in. This is another Universal feat. And it does scale to physical stats since Olly is physically folding the very fabric of the Universe like a sheet of origami paper.
  • This is a Low 2-C feat
So in conclusion, we have 7 Low 2-C feats here that would inherently scale to Mario. I'm going to be neutral on the Outlier debate. Also, Super Dimentio is clearly 2-B; he very much eats the entire multiverse. And his base form is Low 2-C because it's implied he was with Count Bleck when Bleck destroyed his first Universe and tanked it.
Click to expand...
bUt AlL sEvEn ArE oUtLiErS
 
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