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Low 2-C Base Archie Sonic
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My opinion
It's a true fact the Chaos Emeralds are the greatest power within Archie! Sonic and it is perfectly possible to scale them with other machines like The Ultimate Annihilator. BUT It is still a very variable power and it is not correct to scale characters like Chaos and Naugus to their full power as their users have not shown that much power.
It's rather weird since half of an emerald hitting the ground was enough to create another universe, but it's still the most established in the last storylines before the reboot.
The feats from Low 2-C and above from the Chaos Emeralds was always "too much" for the base characters. There's in fact some scaling from characters like Horizont-Al, Verti-Cal and Feist (Who is maybe equal to Naugus inside "his" dimension), but I think that it's less legit than both Sonic and Naugus Tier 4 feats
- Knuckles having the power of a chaos emerald is a reference to his occult power that he only actually used when he became Chaos Knuckles. Does not scale to characters in base form.
- Naugus Low 2-C/2-C feats (controlling a infinite space-time continuum and fused two infinite space-time continuum) are legit, but they only work with him inside that dimension, outside of that he is weaker. But the Tier 4 stuff (Remotely was responsible for filling it with stars and planets in what was once just an empty space-time) is legit.
- Chaos and other characters with Chaos Emerald could also be a legit feat, BUT
It's a true fact the Chaos Emeralds are the greatest power within Archie! Sonic and it is perfectly possible to scale them with other machines like The Ultimate Annihilator. BUT It is still a very variable power and it is not correct to scale characters like Chaos and Naugus to their full power as their users have not shown that much power.
It's rather weird since half of an emerald hitting the ground was enough to create another universe, but it's still the most established in the last storylines before the reboot.
The feats from Low 2-C and above from the Chaos Emeralds was always "too much" for the base characters. There's in fact some scaling from characters like Horizont-Al, Verti-Cal and Feist (Who is maybe equal to Naugus inside "his" dimension), but I think that it's less legit than both Sonic and Naugus Tier 4 feats
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I wonder how much Archie Sonic's FateHax had a hand with these feats, tbh.
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I'll get back to this later.
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So, what? Does Sonic's Fatehax, which is explained to warp reality in Sonic favor, warped Sonic's power when the need arises? Like the black hole feat?
Sorry, I'm new. I have been reading the threads for awhile, and made an account today because I came across a blog trying to debunked the FateHax. Trying, because his reasoning for his "debunk" is because Mogul was talking about himself. That isn't a good reason to debunk the FateHax.
Somehow, Archie turned plot armor, the plot armor to always win, into an actual skill set. I'm impressed and intimidated at the same time.
Sorry, I'm new. I have been reading the threads for awhile, and made an account today because I came across a blog trying to debunked the FateHax. Trying, because his reasoning for his "debunk" is because Mogul was talking about himself. That isn't a good reason to debunk the FateHax.
Somehow, Archie turned plot armor, the plot armor to always win, into an actual skill set. I'm impressed and intimidated at the same time.
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Who would win?
A massive group of users
or
Literally 1 staff member
A massive group of users
or
Literally 1 staff member
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This has no prevalence to the topic at hand,it's just derailment.ElixirBlue said:
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If half an emerald can passively create a zone than even a fraction of turning thoughts in power should be far superior. Yes mastery is a thing,but a degree infinity is the baseline regardless otherwise no one would seek them.
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Alright, let me respond to Executor's points.
"It's pretty straightforward that Naugus was responsible for the Silent Zone content, although without a certain time frame I believe the most that can be given about the feat is Tier 4."
The Zone of Silence was stated by both Sonic and Rotor to be a universe so him creating it would be a Low 2-C feat. A tier 4 character wouldn't be capable of creating an entire universe. It was a tiny bubble of space-time before Naugus created it.
In any case, full control of the zone is exclusive when it is within its territory, which makes it very "dependent" on it. Within the limits of the Zone where we could say that he is Low 2-C no other character was a threat to him. I think it's possible for us to leave Naugus as Tier 4 out of the Silence Zone, since it is said that he did it remotely, which I interpret to be outside of it, but inside the Silence Zone it would be Low 2-C or even 2-C (Since he fused the Silence Zone with the Void, both non-finite space-time pocket dimensions)
This is true, Naugus is more powerful within the zone, but he would have needed to be tier 2 to have created it in the first place. You do bring up a good point about him fusing the Zone of Silence with the Void being 2-C. What I would propose is Low 2-C in base, 2-C within the Zone of Silence.
"Yes, Knuckles has the power of a chaos emerald, but it's not something he really uses. The whole story of Knuckles being so powerful is what led to Chaos Knuckles. He has this power and he even manifested this "energy", but it was never something he controlled or used until he became Chaos Knuckles, where he actually demonstrated such power to its fullest."
Fair point.
"This is indeed legitimate, but I believe that with Chaos having never demonstrated great feats with Chaos Emeralds could indicate that he does not use them "correctly". But this is my nitpicking"
I think a being made of pure liquid Chaos energy would know how to use the Chaos Emeralds' power but that's just me.
"I think by now we've come to something a little ridiculous. The big point of Chaos Emeralds is "they have infinite power, but you have to control their power". In the first Genesis Wave we saw Eggman affecting only one universe using a chaos emerald, but in the second Genesis Wave we saw him affecting all Sonic-verse universes (With the Megaman-verse) using a single chaos emerald as well.
The explanation for this is simple "It's the same source of power, but you need to know how to use it." Just a character having a chaos emerald and firing some burst of energy using that power doesn't mean that it's a low 2-C or higher energy blast.
But yes, Chaos Emeralds does have these Low 2-C to 2-A feats (Anyway, I have my problems with the whole "Great Harmony" thing). But except when Chaos used her (or when DeathEgg with Power Rings was able to match the power of one), they were always placed above most other characters as long as the user knew how to use their power."
Fair, although as others have mentioned a single Chaos Emerald should still be above the Ultimate Annihilator even at their weakest. Naugus and especially Mogul have mastery in Ixis Magicks which include being able to manipulate Power Rings, natural by-products of the Chaos Emeralds. So them being able to draw Low 2-C amounts of power from a Chaos Emerald I do think is a given for them.
"But, they in fact survived a blast from Low 2-C characters and Omega did damage in Feist, with these feats not really having anything to say "they are false" (Unless we count "They aren't using their Low 2-C power" or "They got caught off guard"... or "Every moment later they are god-like against Sonic and the others")"
Al & Cal were bloodlusted and their battle was threatening the existence of other zones while Sonic and Tails got hit by their blast, so it wasn't like they were holding back if that's what anyone is concerned about.
"It's pretty straightforward that Naugus was responsible for the Silent Zone content, although without a certain time frame I believe the most that can be given about the feat is Tier 4."
The Zone of Silence was stated by both Sonic and Rotor to be a universe so him creating it would be a Low 2-C feat. A tier 4 character wouldn't be capable of creating an entire universe. It was a tiny bubble of space-time before Naugus created it.
In any case, full control of the zone is exclusive when it is within its territory, which makes it very "dependent" on it. Within the limits of the Zone where we could say that he is Low 2-C no other character was a threat to him. I think it's possible for us to leave Naugus as Tier 4 out of the Silence Zone, since it is said that he did it remotely, which I interpret to be outside of it, but inside the Silence Zone it would be Low 2-C or even 2-C (Since he fused the Silence Zone with the Void, both non-finite space-time pocket dimensions)
This is true, Naugus is more powerful within the zone, but he would have needed to be tier 2 to have created it in the first place. You do bring up a good point about him fusing the Zone of Silence with the Void being 2-C. What I would propose is Low 2-C in base, 2-C within the Zone of Silence.
"Yes, Knuckles has the power of a chaos emerald, but it's not something he really uses. The whole story of Knuckles being so powerful is what led to Chaos Knuckles. He has this power and he even manifested this "energy", but it was never something he controlled or used until he became Chaos Knuckles, where he actually demonstrated such power to its fullest."
Fair point.
"This is indeed legitimate, but I believe that with Chaos having never demonstrated great feats with Chaos Emeralds could indicate that he does not use them "correctly". But this is my nitpicking"
I think a being made of pure liquid Chaos energy would know how to use the Chaos Emeralds' power but that's just me.
"I think by now we've come to something a little ridiculous. The big point of Chaos Emeralds is "they have infinite power, but you have to control their power". In the first Genesis Wave we saw Eggman affecting only one universe using a chaos emerald, but in the second Genesis Wave we saw him affecting all Sonic-verse universes (With the Megaman-verse) using a single chaos emerald as well.
The explanation for this is simple "It's the same source of power, but you need to know how to use it." Just a character having a chaos emerald and firing some burst of energy using that power doesn't mean that it's a low 2-C or higher energy blast.
But yes, Chaos Emeralds does have these Low 2-C to 2-A feats (Anyway, I have my problems with the whole "Great Harmony" thing). But except when Chaos used her (or when DeathEgg with Power Rings was able to match the power of one), they were always placed above most other characters as long as the user knew how to use their power."
Fair, although as others have mentioned a single Chaos Emerald should still be above the Ultimate Annihilator even at their weakest. Naugus and especially Mogul have mastery in Ixis Magicks which include being able to manipulate Power Rings, natural by-products of the Chaos Emeralds. So them being able to draw Low 2-C amounts of power from a Chaos Emerald I do think is a given for them.
"But, they in fact survived a blast from Low 2-C characters and Omega did damage in Feist, with these feats not really having anything to say "they are false" (Unless we count "They aren't using their Low 2-C power" or "They got caught off guard"... or "Every moment later they are god-like against Sonic and the others")"
Al & Cal were bloodlusted and their battle was threatening the existence of other zones while Sonic and Tails got hit by their blast, so it wasn't like they were holding back if that's what anyone is concerned about.
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Sorry, I was just wondering if FateHax was noticeably used during those feats. Cause I can't buy base Sonic being 2C, despite the explanations. Sure, he has faced very powerful opponents at base but with FateHax being a thing, I'm not sure how legitimate some feats are.
If FateHax had no influence during those feats, i'm sorry for bring up haxes.
If FateHax had no influence during those feats, i'm sorry for bring up haxes.
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Dude, stop talking about Sonic's fate hax. It has nothing to do with this thread.
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I'm only bring up FateHax (I just heard a lot of groaning) is being I'm seeing people bring up Naugus as a scale to Sonic. If that's the case, Ultra Sonic is weaker than Ugly Naugus because he couldn't last as long as Naugus and Nate Morgan is also stronger than Naugus and Sonic with the use of his eye piece.
I claim it was FateHax that enable Nate to have the unknown technology to overcome 2A beings.
Well, in all fairness, the low 2C are mostly likely legitimate, i'm just concern on how they happened.
And now, an unfriendly reply. I just wanted to share thoughts and see what others think of them.
I claim it was FateHax that enable Nate to have the unknown technology to overcome 2A beings.
Well, in all fairness, the low 2C are mostly likely legitimate, i'm just concern on how they happened.
And now, an unfriendly reply. I just wanted to share thoughts and see what others think of them.
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I'm just saying, I saw the Doctor Strange vs Archie Sonic thread. Archie Sonic was winning because of FateHax. If it can work with Doctor Strange, what's there to say those times when he fought Mogul, Naugus, and Knuckles (who were using the power of a single Emerald that was more power than the Ultimate annihilator), that Archie Sonic's FateHax was at play.
If it works on Strange, could those opponents also being held back and not using the full power of the emerald against base Sonic?
What i've been getting at is, are those feats accurate, and where the opponents holding back (or forgotten, or was unable to.. etc)?
If it works on Strange, could those opponents also being held back and not using the full power of the emerald against base Sonic?
What i've been getting at is, are those feats accurate, and where the opponents holding back (or forgotten, or was unable to.. etc)?
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Sonic's fatehax dosn't buff his AP. And even if it did, that's still a reason to give him an AP buff.
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I'm wondering if Mogul, Naugus, and Knuckles were debuffed, due to them suddenly becoming incompetent when it comes to Sonic. It happened to Snivley in Endgame, when he didn't remember to put Sonic's name into the ultimate annihilator along with Robotnik.
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Sonic probably has plenty of Pre-Millionth-Ring-Aura Low 2-C feats.
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Yeah, but then we'd have to acknowledge the fact that Sonic isn't fast without his shoes.
That's why i'm hesitant to look at feats from the "Toon" era. Only the feats that are recalled after the "Toon" era I'd like to acknowledge.
Like Evil Sonic. Evil Sonic came from the "Toon" era but was brought back after, so he is considered in feats.
The "Bug Bomb" was sadly not brought back after the Toon era. Nor the comic books Spawn came from.
That's why i'm hesitant to look at feats from the "Toon" era. Only the feats that are recalled after the "Toon" era I'd like to acknowledge.
Like Evil Sonic. Evil Sonic came from the "Toon" era but was brought back after, so he is considered in feats.
The "Bug Bomb" was sadly not brought back after the Toon era. Nor the comic books Spawn came from.
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Sonic never needed his shoes for speed AFAIK, and fate hax doesn't make the impossible, please, and I mean it, stop derailing
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Archie Sonic issue 5, coming right after Super Sonic first appearance. Dr. Robotnik stole Sonic's shoes while he was "Swimming!?", and then Robotnik held the Robotnik Olympics and Sonic couldn't build any speed and has no stamina. Until Tails found Sonic's shoes and suddenly, Sonic regain all his abilities again.
This event is easily forgotten and for good reason. But it's still an issue in the comics and the story didn't happen in a spin off.
I'm not trying to derail the tread. This thread is trying to figure out if Base Sonic is Low 2C. I'm just trying to challenge that. I'm allowed to, right?
This event is easily forgotten and for good reason. But it's still an issue in the comics and the story didn't happen in a spin off.
I'm not trying to derail the tread. This thread is trying to figure out if Base Sonic is Low 2C. I'm just trying to challenge that. I'm allowed to, right?
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I mean, Eggman said during the first Genesis Wave that Sonic turning super from cable that should have fired him to be impossible, but Sonic did it anyway, so there that.
Same man that alter reality using a single Chaos Emerald by using his own intelligence said Sonic turning Super Sonic in that situation was impossible.
Same man that alter reality using a single Chaos Emerald by using his own intelligence said Sonic turning Super Sonic in that situation was impossible.
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Just make a separate thread
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Well, don't renember it, pretty sure like in Labyrinth Eggman putted new shoes that slower him down, he wasn't shoeless, anyways we use older Archie here, Sonic has alot of abilities
You would need to prove that Sonic's fate hax made the enemy either weaker or Sonic stronger, without proof it's just baseless headcanon, Strange was still 4-B and Sonic had the Sword of Acorns which drains 2-A power in the thread you mentioned, so again you need to prove that Sonic fate hax buffed him or weakened his enemies
You would need to prove that Sonic's fate hax made the enemy either weaker or Sonic stronger, without proof it's just baseless headcanon, Strange was still 4-B and Sonic had the Sword of Acorns which drains 2-A power in the thread you mentioned, so again you need to prove that Sonic fate hax buffed him or weakened his enemies
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1. Snivley, for some strange reason, had the power to write names into the Ultimate Annihilator and choose, instead of letting his uncle erase their enemies (Dr. Robotnik and Snivley shared the same enemies and it was clear after the fact Snivley wasn't doing it out of the kindness of his heart as Snivley wanted to rule the world), wrote only Robotnik's name. Snivley betray Robotnik, and made it so the weapon could only effect his uncle. Did he have a grand plan to fight Sonic and the Freedom Fighters after he erase the smartest man on the planet and choose not to erase Sonic? Nope! A issue or two later, he was thrown in jail like a chump.
And Snivley is smarter than this. Why didn't he erase Sonic and all his enemies when he had the chance if he had no way to defeat them? FateHax. It made him stupid and not thinking straight when he had a clear solution right in front of him!
2. Naugus. Naugus had power and cunning before he met Sonic. The flash back of the Great War showed how cunning Naugus is. As wormed his way into becoming the royal wizard of the Kingdom of Acorn and work to build everyone's trust. He partnered with Kudos to start the Great War. He convince Max to exile Nate, the creator of the Power Rings and who was family to Max. He anticipated Kudos betrayal and created a projection of himself to talk to Kudos right before Kudos back stabbed him and isolated himself in the Zone of Silence to build up power. In the Zone of Silence, Max was exiled and Naugus took advantage of the fact his magic makes people immune to the Zone's harmful effects and made Max swore his kingdom over to Naugus. Naugus won and he is about to gain a Kingdom and receive to order of Ixis.
Now, what does Naugus do as soon as he encounters Sonic?!?! He get very volient, has none of his charisma to convince others that he is the one for the job, and runs from Sonic when his plans fail. Sure, there was a bit of planning when he possessed Crystal Max, but strategy and tactics went out the window when Sonic came back from Angel Island.
Do you see why I'm making a big issue with Sonic's FateHax?! His FateHax makes people stupid!!
And Snivley is smarter than this. Why didn't he erase Sonic and all his enemies when he had the chance if he had no way to defeat them? FateHax. It made him stupid and not thinking straight when he had a clear solution right in front of him!
2. Naugus. Naugus had power and cunning before he met Sonic. The flash back of the Great War showed how cunning Naugus is. As wormed his way into becoming the royal wizard of the Kingdom of Acorn and work to build everyone's trust. He partnered with Kudos to start the Great War. He convince Max to exile Nate, the creator of the Power Rings and who was family to Max. He anticipated Kudos betrayal and created a projection of himself to talk to Kudos right before Kudos back stabbed him and isolated himself in the Zone of Silence to build up power. In the Zone of Silence, Max was exiled and Naugus took advantage of the fact his magic makes people immune to the Zone's harmful effects and made Max swore his kingdom over to Naugus. Naugus won and he is about to gain a Kingdom and receive to order of Ixis.
Now, what does Naugus do as soon as he encounters Sonic?!?! He get very volient, has none of his charisma to convince others that he is the one for the job, and runs from Sonic when his plans fail. Sure, there was a bit of planning when he possessed Crystal Max, but strategy and tactics went out the window when Sonic came back from Angel Island.
Do you see why I'm making a big issue with Sonic's FateHax?! His FateHax makes people stupid!!
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And Mogul seems to get distracted a lot around Sonic... -_-
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So, i have a problem if the possibility of Sonic's Fatehax effecting combat skill exists.
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Stupid =/= weak
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There's no proof Sonic's Fate hax infinitely strengthens himself or weakens his enemies.
Now, can you please stop derailing?
Now, can you please stop derailing?
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All i'm saying is, Dimitri's Enerjak (Knuckles miniseries) showed a lot more power than Knuckles's Enerjak. Only one of them had Sonic around.
Oh, and Naugus only fought Sonic in the series. Everyone else, Naugus had superiority over, even those who Sonic has a tough time against, like Kudos. Heck, Naugus had superiority with Fiest while Sonic was shaking in his shoes.
Oh, and Naugus only fought Sonic in the series. Everyone else, Naugus had superiority over, even those who Sonic has a tough time against, like Kudos. Heck, Naugus had superiority with Fiest while Sonic was shaking in his shoes.
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Yet, Naugus lost in a fight with Sonic. -_-
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Yes, just checked issue 53. Sonic destroys a scepter of Naugus and Naugus runs. And i've seen Naugus do more powerful things than that without a Chaos Emerald (like when he used freezing and taking the oxygen out of the air against Eggman's robot daughter.)
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Before the spiders handed the Sword of Acorns to Naugus, Naugus used freezing and vacuumed the oxygen out of the air with no equipment. So he could have and should have used against Sonic in issue 53. But he didn't.
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So… how does this relate to the upgrades in any way?
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Stop spaming and fate hax doesn't make Sonic stronger or his opponents weaker, giving PIS=/= making someone weaker, you need to prove so, plus other characters don't have fate hax yet they still scale to the low 2-C feat
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- Thread starter
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Stop,if you keep derailing your gonna get reported so knock it off.
Make a thread about his Fatehax if you really have gripes with it and tbh it's not gonna go well.
Make a thread about his Fatehax if you really have gripes with it and tbh it's not gonna go well.
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Enough with the irrelevant spam.
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Sigh, fine. I'll stop. Just... even if Cal and Al are high dimensional beings, a blast from their attack on Sonic and Tails doesn't mean it was a high dimensional attack. Example, Saitama one punches the most powerful monster but knocks out humans? Do humans have high multi-Continental durability in his world?
No, Saitama holds back. What i have been going with this is, when it comes to feats of durability for Archie Sonic, how certain are we that the attacks he takes aren't from people holding back?
And i'm done. I'll be watching this thread though but i've said all I want to say on power scaling Sonic to Low 2C. If I'm wrong, I'm dumb and so on and so forth. I'll accept that.
No, Saitama holds back. What i have been going with this is, when it comes to feats of durability for Archie Sonic, how certain are we that the attacks he takes aren't from people holding back?
And i'm done. I'll be watching this thread though but i've said all I want to say on power scaling Sonic to Low 2C. If I'm wrong, I'm dumb and so on and so forth. I'll accept that.
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You need to prove they holding back or not, Saitama's case is obvious that he holds back, you need to prove the same to Al and Cal
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