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Lostbelt Revisions and new Profiles

Makenai said:
Those who have direct FTL speed should stay, but those who get it via stats scaling should be removed. You can't just take a massively boosted servant's feats and scale it to every servant under the sun. Also that's not Mash but Galahad and I'm pretty sure it's an outlier since it's multiple times stated no servant (bar grands) or humans can travel at FTL, even a divine spirit like Dioscuri took a toll for moving at such speed.
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There have actually been several instances where that's happened, there's a lot of talk in this thread about Dioscuri this and Dioscuri that. But in reality that's only like 10% the reason. Dioscuri's feats were more for the Rel+ to SOL stuff. Even then it has largely nothing to do with FTL because we simply speculated that based on those LS statements that if were to calc certain movements in those fights we'd get an FTL reaction in there.

There's Mash's calc, being able to react to Sherlocks Mystic codes, Emyia projecting things at FTL speeds, Demyia reacting to FTL Melt in Seraph and catching up to her, Karna's Mats, Avenger of Shinjuku and Microsecond timing, Assassin of Shinjuku's NP. The Melty Calc etc...

All of which I would remind you, scale to the dioscuri and are expressly noted on their profile.

Additionally the BB statement was already discussed in the original thread. And it was noted that there are several issues with the BB statement i.e basically everytime LS does actually hurt someone, it's never just the speed, but other things supplementary to going light speed. I.e using authority as a servant, time traveling when giga nerfed and out of energy and half dead, etc

So if the purpose is to change the justifications then there's really nothing to discuss here.
BreezeHM said:
I see, thank you.

Yeah, thats what I mean by parameter scaling being inconsistent but it's too much of a headache to care about it

I know a FTL character can blitz another one. My argument was that Dioscuri isn't FTL at all. Since he has multiple statements of being near light speed and Speed of light and only FTL with the use of his authority. He blitzed Mash without the use of his authority or he would've been coughing blood, meaning Castor was only moving at Lightspeed there. I mean in general, can a SOL even blitz a Rel+? I've seen calcs on the wiki that people were able to dodge light and only got Rel, but like you said there are a lot of factors that dictate a fight.

The point is that without the spell, Mash would've died and Musashi wouldn't have reached Mash in time before the Dioscuri. We can't prove the distance between Mash, The Dioscuri and Musashi but if you're surrounded by 3 gods, a divine spirit and two Immortal giants, you'd likely stick closer together than away. But it's all assumption. Which is why we should change the justification to another FTL Feat since Dioscuri's feats are unreliable or outliers.

It's also not just the speed feat but Olympus in general has some shaky stuff like how Caenis became a god and was defeated by Mash and Holmes? It was off screen but no one there is god level (tier 1) and black barrel isn't usable on Caenis. Only thing I can see is Holmes beating her because (SPOILER)
He's an apostle of the Foreign god and since we've seen Limbo capable of using magecraft on a tier 1 level Holmes should be able too as well.
Click to expand...
Insinuating that the whole of LB5.2 should not be used is pretty crazy ngl.

You never really get blitzes in Fate anyways so scaling them using AGI stats is slightly more accurate than you believe. I mean even as far back as stay night Rider was certainly faster than Salter but Salter could still keep up. Even now Cu and Emyia have the same rating even though Cu vs Emyia 2 in UBW was one of the clearest instances of a blitz we've ever seen in Fate. And that's because Emyia downscaled from Cu via fighting a nerfed version.

So with that said, once again, it really doesn't matter whether they were buffed by Nanomachines or not, or whether or not Dioscuri did this or that. They'd one, still end up downscaling anyways because that's a thing downscaling from a feat. And two, simply scale off the other FTL justifications which make up 90% of the reason for FTL in the first place.
 
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FallenMaou2234 said:
There have actually been several instances where that's happened, there's a lot of talk in this thread about Dioscuri this and Dioscuri that. But in reality that's only like 10% the reason. Dioscuri's feats were more for the Rel+ to SOL stuff. Even then it has largely nothing to do with FTL because we simply speculated that based on those LS statements that if were to calc certain movements in those fights we'd get an FTL reaction in there.

There's Mash's calc, being able to react to Sherlocks Mystic codes, Emyia projecting things at FTL speeds, Demyia reacting to FTL Melt in Seraph and catching up to her, Karna's Mats, Avenger of Shinjuku and Microsecond timing, Assassin of Shinjuku's NP. The Melty Calc etc...

All of which I would remind you, scale to the dioscuri and are expressly noted on their profile.
Click to expand...
My head hurts just thinking about Nasuverse speed feats and the scaling chain. I'm going to drop the speed stuff in this thread since previous revisions need to be applied still. (Don't think I'll come back since I'm working on Martial Peak profiles)
FallenMaou2234 said:
Additionally the BB statement was already discussed in the original thread. And it was noted that there are several issues with the BB statement i.e basically everytime LS does actually hurt someone, it's never just the speed, but other things supplementary to going light speed. I.e using authority as a servant, time traveling when giga nerfed and out of energy and half dead, etc

So if the purpose is to change the justifications then there's really nothing to discuss here.

Insinuating that the whole of LB5.2 should not be used is pretty crazy ngl.
Click to expand...
Oh thats not what I meant, I was just saying how LB 5.2 Is just iffy in general, obviously we can't declare it an outlier.
FallenMaou2234 said:
You never really get blitzes in Fate anyways so scaling them using AGI stats is slightly more accurate than you believe. I mean even as far back as stay night Rider was certainly faster than Salter but Salter could still keep up. Even back during the MHS days Cu and Emyia had the same rating even though Cu vs Emyia 2 in UBW was one of the clearest instances of a blitz we've ever seen in Fate. And that's because Emyia downscaled from Cu via fighting a slightly nerfed version.

So with that said, once again, it really doesn't matter whether they were buffed by Nanomachines or not, or whether or not Dioscuri did this or that. They'd one, still end up downscaling anyways because that's a thing downscaling from a feat. And two, simply scale off the other FTL justifications which make up 90% of the reason for FTL in the first place.
Click to expand...
I think it's just that there's no clear value for the FTL reactions and combat speed stuff and I was more thinking about a little above baseline. I'm dropping it for now. But do you have any opinions on the other contents of the thread?
 
BreezeHM said:
My head hurts just thinking about Nasuverse speed feats and the scaling chain. I'm going to drop the speed stuff in this thread since previous revisions need to be applied still. (Don't think I'll come back since I'm working on Martial Peak profiles)

I think it's just that there's no clear value for the FTL reactions and combat speed stuff and I was more thinking about a little above baseline. I'm dropping it for now. But do you have any opinions on the other contents of the thread?
Click to expand...
It's 3.15.c based on the Mash calc. And she's never been an extremely fast servant even having a D-Rank Agi to top it off even after her Ascension in Camelot. Those with higher AGI stats upscale from that value and those with lower downscale. There's your scaling chain simple.

Again, AGI stats are actually pretty consistent if you get rid of the notion that having a higher AGI stats means that you should absolutely blitzstomp or overwhelm those with a lower stat. Again I'll reference the Emyia and Cu fight, Cu is just outright the fastest servant of 5th GW in CQC so even among those with A-Rank Agi in that war he was exceptional and thats saying something considering Hercules is in there. Archer using minds eye with his C-Rank Agility still managed to avoid fatal blows despite this. So yeah it's not thaat much of a pain to deal with.

With regards to other stuff I'd refrain from making Heian-Kyo revisions for now. There's a revision in the works whenever Crimson decides to drop that. And I have brought up the sword master stuff and I think that's pretty much just clear High/Low-Godly regen so I see no problems there.
 
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Ok, I’ll throw in my two cents. Sorry if I say something stupid because I haven’t read the above:
  • To say that the slash Musashi used to banish Chaos needs some work would be a gross understatement. I get that its explanation is beyond most people (including me) but that doesn’t change the facts. At least immeasurable speed and BFR from the results?
  • Alter Ego Muramasa’s capabilities are very different from those of his Saber counterpart. I haven’t finished Avalon either so I don’t have any suggestions, just a couple statements, but the stuff about him slaughtering an army of Servants alongside Rasputin and one-shotting Atlas thanks to his anti-divine nature speaks for itself.
  • Limbo is… an unusual case. He was genuinely powerful but I‘m unsure if any of his statements were accurate. Especially his claim to Godhood, which may or may not be just like that fiasco with the Beast class. Is there any reason to think he’d have Authority besides the Olympians (who only ever met his shikigami) and his own claim? If so then Limbo’s loss to Pepe speaks for itself.
    • Also Limbo never loses his inferiority complex to Seimei (who didn’t even show to their fight) and there are many many possible ways he could have made it night, especially considering his tier.
  • While Ritsuka Fujimaru‘s profile needs a slew of feats and abilities/resistances… saving Nursery Rhyme is not one of them. She’s not a normal Servant and outright said it wasn’t just Ritsuka’s power involved, even if its vague what caused the miracle.
While I’m here I’ll leave a few of Fujimaru’s needed additions: more Social Influencing feats (especially Da Vanci claiming the Foreigner ambassador wouldn’t be a problem because of their charms), Edmund Dantes stuff (he resides in their soul or something and protects them from a bunch of stuff), resisting Aphrodite’s Authority (with help from Edmund), Muramasa’s statements about their temporary summons (they’re really draining and could defeat a Tam Lin), and a stamina feat called “Black Barrel’s ammunition”
 
Would this be the thread where we talk about Avalon Lostbelt feats? I’m pretty sure it’s got more for Mash and Ritsuka than the other Lostbelts combined, especially because we now have more info on the latter’s “Shadows”.
 
Wdinatx said:
Would this be the thread where we talk about Avalon Lostbelt feats? I’m pretty sure it’s got more for Mash and Ritsuka than the other Lostbelts combined, especially because we now have more info on the latter’s “Shadows”.
Click to expand...
No.
 
Wdinatx said:
Ok, I’ll throw in my two cents. Sorry if I say something stupid because I haven’t read the above:
  • To say that the slash Musashi used to banish Chaos needs some work would be a gross understatement. I get that its explanation is beyond most people (including me) but that doesn’t change the facts. At least immeasurable speed and BFR from the results?
Click to expand...
No. The distance between Musashi and Chaos was finite thanks to Romulus. Why would she get BFR from it? She just cut the portal she didn't actually banish him anywhere.
Wdinatx said:
  • Alter Ego Muramasa’s capabilities are very different from those of his Saber counterpart. I haven’t finished Avalon either so I don’t have any suggestions, just a couple statements, but the stuff about him slaughtering an army of Servants alongside Rasputin and one-shotting Atlas thanks to his anti-divine nature speaks for itself.
Click to expand...
I'll worry about him when I go back to college
Wdinatx said:
  • Limbo is… an unusual case. He was genuinely powerful but I‘m unsure if any of his statements were accurate. Especially his claim to Godhood, which may or may not be just like that fiasco with the Beast class. Is there any reason to think he’d have Authority besides the Olympians (who only ever met his shikigami) and his own claim? If so then Limbo’s loss to Pepe speaks for itself.
    • Also Limbo never loses his inferiority complex to Seimei (who didn’t even show to their fight) and there are many many possible ways he could have made it night, especially considering his tier.
Click to expand...
He's powerful alright, strong enough to use hax that can affect machine gods. His potency is high but maybe his resistance isn't or pepe just exploited a weakness I don't fully remember the scene right now.
Wdinatx said:
  • While Ritsuka Fujimaru‘s profile needs a slew of feats and abilities/resistances… saving Nursery Rhyme is not one of them. She’s not a normal Servant and outright said it wasn’t just Ritsuka’s power involved, even if its vague what caused the miracle.
While I’m here I’ll leave a few of Fujimaru’s needed additions: more Social Influencing feats (especially Da Vanci claiming the Foreigner ambassador wouldn’t be a problem because of their charms), Edmund Dantes stuff (he resides in their soul or something and protects them from a bunch of stuff), resisting Aphrodite’s Authority (with help from Edmund), Muramasa’s statements about their temporary summons (they’re really draining and could defeat a Tam Lin), and a stamina feat called “Black Barrel’s ammunition”
Click to expand...
He didn't save Nursery Rhyme thats why it's limited. He saved her temporarily to be able to walk around, talk and release her Noble Phantasm which not even Medea's age of gods level spells could do. As for the other Ritsuka stuff, he's missing a lot of things but I'll get into that in college hopefully.
 
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