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[Loser's Grand Finals] Venefica's Tier 7 Tourney: Cinner vs Leaf Girl

MintyBoi1 said:
The Demonic Energy used in the danmaku comes from Leaf Girl, right? If that’s the case Cinner’s Ki should burn it like it has other weaker Ki.
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How come it coming from leaf girl would be the deciding factor? What would the case be then for it to NOT count? Like an outside power source or something?
 
VeneficaAuthor said:
How come it coming from leaf girl would be the deciding factor? What would the case be then for it to NOT count? Like an outside power source or something?
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Yeah like the energy coming from a gun or something rather than Leaf Girl herself. If it’s not coming from her physically, it doesn’t count. Ki is energy everyone has inside their bodies naturally.
 
MintyBoi1 said:
Yeah like the energy coming from a gun or something rather than Leaf Girl herself. If it’s not coming from her physically, it doesn’t count. Ki is energy everyone has inside their bodies naturally.
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Yes, it is something that comes from her directly, but it shouldn't function the same as Ki.
 
LeoEpicGamer8910 said:
Yes, it is something that comes from her directly, but it shouldn't function the same as Ki.
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It’s the same principle so it might apply. Cinner’s stuff works specifically on Ki but that’s because there’s nothing else like it in verse.
 
I wonder what Rayfire thinks since I remember him saying something about comparing power systems before.
 
I think it would apply, lowering Leaf Girl’s chances of amping herself with Cinner’s life force. Devil’s Claw on top of that could still land though and the telekinesis will be the main issue here.
Similar supernatural aspects of verses get equalized in a reasonable fashion. So a supernatural energy that almost everyone in a Verse has, which is necessary to fight the characters of said Verse, will be assumed to be the equivalent energy that the opponents use in their techniques so that a proper fight can happen.

Furthermore, attacks that require a special type of energy to be effective, like anti-magic requiring magic, will be assumed to work against the energies of different Verses, as long as they are somehow similar and the mechanics are somehow compatible with the known mechanics behind the energies from different Verses. For example, mind control resistance by being a capable mind user would also work against other Verses, but mind control resistance through a strong will would not necessarily work against mind control from other Verses. It is also important to note that characters won't lose or gain any abilities or resistances which they do or do not inherently possess. However, if an ability has a weakness, condition, caveat, or limitation, consistently shown throughout its use (such as not working on characters under a specific condition, like energy gap) or stated by a valid and uncontradicted statement, then it should be applicable after the equalization.

Equalization works highly on a case-by-case basis, so many relevant cases should be discussed in the versus thread itself.
 
I guess it'd depend if leaf girls' demonic energy is like typical magic/ki or not

If it is, though, i don't think it'd be an automatic game over for leaf girl, since this is what cinners' profile says about how he uses Power null:

Power Nullification (His Ki overpowered and burned away High-Flyer’s Ki induced slowing field)

He has to physically overpower another persons Ki to do it, which isn't really possible for the TK given the LS difference, and i'm not sure if it'd be an immediate effect for her other attacks either, since it's not like Leaf girl is completely overwhelmed in AP for example.
 
^ Wait nvm, High-flyer is comparable in AP and still got his stuff nullified. I probably need an explanation as to how cinners' power null works lol
 
MintyBoi1 said:
I think it would apply, lowering Leaf Girl’s chances of amping herself with Cinner’s life force. Devil’s Claw on top of that could still land though and the telekinesis will be the main issue here.
Similar supernatural aspects of verses get equalized in a reasonable fashion. So a supernatural energy that almost everyone in a Verse has, which is necessary to fight the characters of said Verse, will be assumed to be the equivalent energy that the opponents use in their techniques so that a proper fight can happen.

Furthermore, attacks that require a special type of energy to be effective, like anti-magic requiring magic, will be assumed to work against the energies of different Verses, as long as they are somehow similar and the mechanics are somehow compatible with the known mechanics behind the energies from different Verses. For example, mind control resistance by being a capable mind user would also work against other Verses, but mind control resistance through a strong will would not necessarily work against mind control from other Verses. It is also important to note that characters won't lose or gain any abilities or resistances which they do or do not inherently possess. However, if an ability has a weakness, condition, caveat, or limitation, consistently shown throughout its use (such as not working on characters under a specific condition, like energy gap) or stated by a valid and uncontradicted statement, then it should be applicable after the equalization.

Equalization works highly on a case-by-case basis, so many relevant cases should be discussed in the versus thread itself.
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Oh, then Cinner could probably null Leaf Girl's DE then.
 
Would cinner be able to use it consistently tho? There's a lot of vagueness in it's description so i'm having a hard time gauging if that'd be a big factor or not lol. Although if he could, i don't think High-Flyer would have given him a run for his money, would he?
 
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Javenplayz253 said:
Idk why but I just start getting a lil' angry whenever someone mentions Power null
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It can get out of hand. Like Asta stands no chance against Natsu.
Rayfire said:
Would cinner be able to use it consistently tho? There's a lot of vagueness in its description so i'm having a hard time gauging if that'd be a big factor or not lol. Although if he could, i don't think High-Flyer would have given him a run for his money, would he?
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As long as his Ki is active for a while and can overpower the attacks yeah. It got High-Flyer in two goes, one with Cinner unintentionally letting his aura flare up diminishing the Slowing Field a little and the second where he actively tried to burn through the field and succeeded. It’s not like it immediately worked on High-Flyer because of how strong he was, but with Cinner’s advantage in AP here, it should be more effective. For clarification just in case, the reason he couldn’t do this on Risner was them being even more comparable than High-Flyer and his own water Ki countering with elemental matchup and energy sapping.
 
MintyBoi1 said:
As long as his Ki is active for a while and can overpower the attacks yeah. It got High-Flyer in two goes, one with Cinner unintentionally letting his aura flare up and the second where he actively tried to burn through his Ki field and succeeded. It’s not like it immediately worked on High-Flyer because of how strong he was, but with Cinner’s advantage in AP here, it should be more effective.
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I see. Only problem i see with that would be that if cinner misses his shot at burning leaf girl with the heat aura, or has no other option to defend from repeated danmaku other than flexing that power, leaf girl will know what it is and might strategise around it, and there's also the fact that cinner still couldn't just play defensive forever, but it does seem useful here nonetheless. I don't think it'll work on the TK cause of the immense LS difference, though. (Assuming that cinner does his power null with the heat aura according to the description, that is)
 
Rayfire said:
I see. Only problem i see with that would be that if cinner misses his shot at burning leaf girl with the heat aura, or has no other option to defend from repeated danmaku other than flexing that power, leaf girl will know what it is and might strategise around it, and there's also the fact that cinner still couldn't just play defensive forever, but it does seem useful here nonetheless. I don't think it'll work on the TK cause of the immense LS difference, though. (Assuming that cinner does his power null with the heat aura according to the description, that is)
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Yeah I wasn’t really betting on it beating telekinesis since you can’t interact with it anyway physically. I’m hard pressed to say what’s better odds between Cinner getting in and Leaf Girl keeping him away long enough to deal significant damage with her Demonic Attacks. There’s also her barriers which could hold off the aura at least for a bit with how many there are. And both can go for days so outlasting is iffy.
 
Same. Although i'm thinking right now that TK of leaf girl's will be really problematic if cinner wants to get in close to do his thing. Even if cinner can get away from it with self-momentum, Leaf girl can just use it on him again at any time she likes, and maybe seal him with barriers or something if she gets that idea, since they are specifically made to tank hits from way stronger people, and cinner isn't hundreds of times stronger in AP.

I’ll still be leaning leaf girl, but I won’t make a final vote until it’s time 👍
 
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Chances of this ending soon? We’re on page 3 and my reply here is the 100th, is there a TLDR/chance to hit voting time?
 
I suppose I’ll wait and see what everyone thinks. The main conclusion of this fight is that Cinner will be fighting against Leaf Girl’s telekinesis and Danmaku but has certain ways to get in and burn her with his aura. He can nullify some attacks with his heat and resist her empathetic manipulation lowering the amount she can heal. But at the same time both can predict moves and fight for days and Leaf Girl has fought others with great acrobatics so Cinner getting in close enough will be exceedingly difficult. There’s also her barriers though I think Cinner can get around having to destroy things tougher than him by just using his aura until he whittles them away one by one with the power null. This is a tight match but somebody has to win.
 
Well, to help people decide, maybe i'll do another point system again, just for the sake of it, Once again, not a game decider tho (y)

For each advantage one of them has, they will get 1 point. If they are both considered equal, then both will get a point.

AP: Cinner (About a 2-3x edge if i remember correctly)
Speed: Both (Speed is equalised)
Durability: Cinner (Scaling to AP)
LS: Leaf Girl (Class T > Class G)
IQ: Leaf Girl (More feats + Experience)
Battle IQ: Both, Although possibly cinner (Tiny bit Debatable. Aside from ratings, Leaf girl is much more strategical, whilst cinner is more deductive and analytical. The latter has more feats, however)
Experience: Leaf Girl (Both have been described as being trained since their youth, but leaf girl is older than cinner.)
Agility: Cinner (Better acrobatics feats)
Abilities: Both
Hax: Leaf Girl (Both have good hax, but leaf girl has more that will be helpful in terms of quantity, such as TK, impenetrable forcefields, and better healing)
Offense: Leaf Girl (More opportunities to go on the attack)
Defense: Cinner (Power null and heat aura can help defend for a while)
Stamina: Both (Both can fight for days on end)
Endurance: Both (Debatable)
Skill: Both (Leaf girl is extremely experienced, while cinner has more feats)
Range: Leaf girl (Kilometers >>> Tens of meters)
Prediction: Both (Both specialise in predicting things under a disadvantage of some sort in battle)

Leaf Girl: 14
Cinner: 12
 
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Rayfire said:
Well, to help people decide, maybe i'll do another point system again, just for the sake of it, Once again, not a game decider tho (y)

For each advantage one of them has, they will get 1 point. If they are both considered equal, then both will get a point.

AP: Cinner (About a 2-3x edge if i remember correctly)
Speed: Both (Speed is equalised)
Durability: Cinner (Scaling to AP)
LS: Leaf Girl (Class T > Class G)
IQ: Leaf Girl (More feats + Experience)
Battle IQ: Both, Although possibly cinner (Tiny bit Debatable. Aside from ratings, Leaf girl is much more strategical, whilst cinner is more deductive and analytical. The latter has more feats, however)
Experience: Leaf Girl (Both have been described as being trained since their youth, but leaf girl is older than cinner.)
Agility: Cinner (Better acrobatics feats)
Abilities: Both
Hax: Leaf Girl (Both have good hax, but leaf girl has more that will be helpful in terms of quantity, such as TK, impenetrable forcefields, and better healing)
Offense: Leaf Girl (More opportunities to go on the attack)
Defense: Cinner (Power null and heat aura can help defend for a while)
Stamina: Both (Both can fight for days on end)
Endurance: Both (Debatable)
Skill: Both (Leaf girl is extremely experienced, while cinner has more feats)
Range: Leaf girl (Kilometers >>> Tens of meters)
Prediction: Both (Both specialise in predicting things under a disadvantage of some sort in battle)
Less Weaknesses: Leaf Girl (None of leaf girls' weaknesses can be exploited under these conditions)
Leaf Girl: 15
Cinner: 12
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I do think Cinner can get endurance just due to having listed feats for his pain tolerance. Also not sure if Leaf Girl can really poke at any of his weaknesses since there’s no water and Lifeline seems to not be in much serious danger.
 
MintyBoi1 said:
I do think Cinner can get endurance just due to having listed feats for his pain tolerance. Also not sure if Leaf Girl can really poke at any of his weaknesses since there’s no water and Lifeline seems to not be in much serious danger.
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And Cinner doesn’t know about Leaf Man or Stick teddy so uhh I say it's a draw there
 
MintyBoi1 said:
I do think Cinner can get endurance just due to having listed feats for his pain tolerance.
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Well, Leaf girl is comparable to leaf man, who is compared to stickman hero, who could fight for an hour even while he was "Greatly wounded" which indicates some good pain tolerance, so i'll probably put it under debatable still
MintyBoi1 said:
Also not sure if Leaf Girl can really poke at any of his weaknesses since there’s no water and Lifeline seems to not be in much serious danger.
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Fair
 
Rayfire said:
Well, to help people decide, maybe i'll do another point system again, just for the sake of it, Once again, not a game decider tho (y)

For each advantage one of them has, they will get 1 point. If they are both considered equal, then both will get a point.

AP: Cinner (About a 2-3x edge if i remember correctly)
Speed: Both (Speed is equalised)
Durability: Cinner (Scaling to AP)
LS: Leaf Girl (Class T > Class G)
IQ: Leaf Girl (More feats + Experience)
Battle IQ: Both, Although possibly cinner (Tiny bit Debatable. Aside from ratings, Leaf girl is much more strategical, whilst cinner is more deductive and analytical. The latter has more feats, however)
Experience: Leaf Girl (Both have been described as being trained since their youth, but leaf girl is older than cinner.)
Agility: Cinner (Better acrobatics feats)
Abilities: Both
Hax: Leaf Girl (Both have good hax, but leaf girl has more that will be helpful in terms of quantity, such as TK, impenetrable forcefields, and better healing)
Offense: Leaf Girl (More opportunities to go on the attack)
Defense: Cinner (Power null and heat aura can help defend for a while)
Stamina: Both (Both can fight for days on end)
Endurance: Both (Debatable)
Skill: Both (Leaf girl is extremely experienced, while cinner has more feats)
Range: Leaf girl (Kilometers >>> Tens of meters)
Prediction: Both (Both specialise in predicting things under a disadvantage of some sort in battle)

Leaf Girl: 14
Cinner: 12
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MintyBoi1 said:
Exactly so it’s like 15-14
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Seems pretty accurate, with Leaf Girl potentially edging a tiny bit. Their winning % odds still seem very similar.
 
After a long time of thought, I will vote Leaf too. The telekinesis and constant bullet hells force Cinner into defending big amounts with heat aura for hours+, while he has a hard time getting close enough for a fatal burn, although it remains possible. It's still a very high difficulty. Stick Gang girl not to be underestimated FRA
 
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