[R2M4] Venefica's Tier 7 Tourney: Haruka vs Cinner

[MintyBoi1]

I should also note Cinner’s pain tolerance to better counteract Haruka’s AP advantage. He took Captain Saw cutting through the bone in one of his arms, even using the cut arm after it got a bit of time to heal though not entirely. He also caught Kaint’s chakram, cutting his hand, and then got his stomach sliced open and just winced before blocking an attack and getting one over on Kaint, all while his blood was spilling. He also got shot in the chest by Kernel’s rifle which while it couldn’t entirely pass through him due to his heat resistance, it did likely puncture his ribs. He then cauterizes the wound with Lifeline and presses on, blocking all Kernel’s shots and destroying his gun. He took falling beyond the clouds after Dice hit him with the flail’s shockwave, internal damage from Dice using the scythe, and being thrown by the lollipop after Dice grabbed him with it. He also took hits from High-Flyer who could out speed and slow him which should’ve cut him up or damaged his bones though I’ve not written that encounter out yet. And there’s the Rinser stuff where he’s taking many bludgeon attacks and piercing.

Point being, Cinner can keep pushing even if Haruka gets organ damage and attempt to stop her all the same. Unless something is damaged that would make him physically unable to move, he’ll fight.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

I’m taking my vote off until rayfire’s response

 

[Rayfire]

Yes but that gap is smaller given Cinner has beat hordes of warriors with centuries of combat experience and people with Haruka’s powerset, neither of which apply to that example. Even if Haruka can match Cinner’s skill, I don’t think it’ll be that quick like you’re framing it to be. Learning to ride a bike and entering NASCAR are two different things even if it’s the same basic principle. And Cinner has plenty of attacks and strategies he could try like backing off with his extension before letting the staff pull him back in to attack or launching projectiles to distract Haruka. He can also try setting up an attack which Haruka will predict before changing direction mid attack and catching her unawares. Haruka can’t exactly move out of Cinner’s sight given he can feel the air in the area. And why doesn’t Haruka need to get in range? Cinner can block attacks from a distance from people with enhanced precision like what Haruka has and will be getting a warning each time she sends something his way. I think she’ll eventually have to try using her scythe in which Cinner outranges it and gets some hits in and perhaps a combo which deals great damage. You can’t just tell me Haruka is not afraid to get into close range and then say she’ll never feel the need to try close range even when long range isn’t working for her.

What do you mean ‘It won’t be as quick as you think’? I literally showed you 5 seconds ago that it’s a thing that takes a couple minutes. It’s not a varied thing. All those strategies require Haruka to be INSIDE his range, which, once Haruka realizes Cinner has extremely limited range, won’t allow that. And if Cinner is seen predicting Haruka’s attack, well, then Cinner isn’t the only one who can switch strategies. As soon as Haruka switches movement patterns or strategies, that’s not something Cinner can just predict or see coming. He doesn’t have outright prediction, after all. Cinner has experience with long range and has air sense, sure, but if I’m not wrong, he has to block with the staff itself, which is in massive danger of breaking, which will be an instant L for Cinner my guy. :/ That might be something nullify could work on, too, disabling air sense to prevent no sensing shenanigans at all. Like you said at the beginning of the thread, as well, haruka putting Cinner in the void of despair would disorient him, which could not only hinder his prediction abilities, but his air sensing, too. And also, air sense won’t really matter in the first place, since haruka can control all her magic with her mind, AKA, homing attacks. So It’s not going to be as simple as ‘RUH ROH RAGGY!!!! DODGE THIS!!!!’ Cinner will have to dodge alot of attacks constantly following him, which is going to overwhelm him regardless of prediction abilities. Just because you can see it coming, doesn’t mean you can always dodge it in time.

^ If that’s not how it works (Blocking with staff), then what’s not to say that Haruka can’t target the staff, AKA, the bonded item, either? Cinner can’t be in two places at the same time. It’s either he gets hit, or his staff, which he has out his life force into, does. Both are bad news for Cinner, considering that he struggles heavily to regenerate organ damage and other severe damage, unlike Haruka, who is also going to always have the AP edge no matter what. (Will get it up to 5.06x minimum in her favor, AKA, 1.7 Gigatons as per estimations cause there is no canon value of how much physically stronger RE makes you whoops)

^ To do this, haruka simply needs to switch her scythe to a multi-blades form, where she can unleash multiple dark shockwaves straight at him from a distance, which could, in fact, target BOTH Him and lifeline at the same time here, meaning it’s double bad for Cinner, especially since haruka has the option of making her attacks homing one’s, so it won’t be as simple as dodging it once and then forgetting about it, as mentioned above ^. Once again, he can’t be in two places at once. One of them has to take a hit, and both options are bad news for good ol’ stickman. JUST BECAUSE IT’S MADE OUT OF METAL, DOESN’T MEAN HARUKA CAN’T DESTROY IT!

You have to keep in mind Rinser could do two attacks in one, pierce with earth bullets, and was sucking Cinner’s energy at the same frequency he was absorbing Rinser’s. All the while the two were hitting each other, blow for blow. I’m sure Asuna is impressive, but stalemating someone under those conditions is also in of itself a great feat. I do see how Asuna’s AP growing could net her a win, but Cinner can also avoid attacks like Haruka can avoid his. Difference is Cinner can make himself faster with rapid movement and fall rate manipulation plus drag her into his range. He rushes Rinser while simultaneously pulling him in to make it seem like he’d attack only for him to shift direction and hit him from above with Metal Crush. On that note, he doesn’t need a huge jump to activate Metal Crush, as long as he’s above Haruka he can use it and tag her with lethal force. You think he’s gonna make everything choreographed for her but he’s very crafty even if his range is more limited. And I’d like some clarification how Haruka does the organ damage to wear Cinner down. Is it just the scythe or can she pierce people in some other way? If it is the scythe then one of her winning strategies revolves around getting into Cinner’s range so she can’t just hang back forever.

Still didn’t beat ‘em though, did he? And if cinner really can make himself faster, like you say (though I haven’t seen that at all) Haruka just needs to stay out of his range, and it’s also something she can also easily adapt to via reactive evolution, for the millionth time. I’m not sure if cinners’ range section is unfinished or sumthin, but in order for his air manipulation to be usable, the target also has to be… in his range… (Tens of meters at best, as listed) And if he’s already above Haruka when he tries to get in range, wouldn’t haruka still just immediately think to dodge or block the second she see’s that? Metal crusher still beforehand movements, which gives haruka an opportunity to counter it. This is ALSO assuming haruka is still in his range when she discovers his extremely limited range, which she won’t be, since haruka is one to exploit all her enemies’ weaknesses without ANY hesitation.

Mostly, it’ll be good ol slicin and dicin with her magic, which, I don’t know if you noticed, is exactly how you destroy flesh and, y’know, organs…

 

[Rayfire]

I should also note Cinner’s pain tolerance to better counteract Haruka’s AP advantage. He took Captain Saw cutting through the bone in one of his arms, even using the cut arm after it got a bit of time to heal though not entirely. He also caught Kaint’s chakram, cutting his hand, and then got his stomach sliced open and just winced before blocking an attack and getting one over on Kaint, all while his blood was spilling. He also got shot in the chest by Kernel’s rifle which while it couldn’t entirely pass through him due to his heat resistance, it did likely puncture his ribs. He then cauterizes the wound with Lifeline and presses on, blocking all Kernel’s shots and destroying his gun. He took falling beyond the clouds after Dice hit him with the flail’s shockwave, internal damage from Dice using the scythe, and being thrown by the lollipop after Dice grabbed him with it. He also took hits from High-Flyer who could out speed and slow him which should’ve cut him up or damaged his bones though I’ve not written that encounter out yet. And there’s the Rinser stuff where he’s taking many bludgeon attacks and piercing.

Point being, Cinner can keep pushing even if Haruka gets organ damage and attempt to stop her all the same. Unless something is damaged that would make him physically unable to move, he’ll fight.

Just because you can’t feel pain does not mean you still aren’t damaged :/ This is the problem people with CIP in real life have. They might not realize it, but they could be severely injured at some point, which will be exactly cinners’ problem. Like you said before in this thread, supernatural willpower can’t save you from physical damage forever, so if cinner loses all his blood or something, he’s done for. Additionally, he hasn’t been shown to have resisted having his frickin heart or brain destroyed, which will DEFINITELY make him physically unable to move even if he has proof that he can survive something like that. Meanwhile, if the same happens to haruka, some quick healing magic is all she needs to fix that right up.

 

[Froggytron]

I don't believe the skill thing either. Again, this is a very(Very) high diff match and nobody here thinks that Cinner is jobbing or anything, plus you said you didn't want to write another big reply, which is understandable, but unless there's another vote you still have the 24 hour period to try to change everyone's mind which I'm also open to given just how close it feels

The point is that Rayfire seems to possess endless energy and time to read opposite arguments with one eye closed, then recycle his past arguments and exaggerate them some more to find other ways to show his character has an upper hand. As it is now, this turns into an endless cycle of arguments until the other side simply cannot argue anymore due to exhaustion, and votes arise for Rayfire's characters. I have true difficulty calling this a fair result that should be written to the profiles.

 

[Rayfire]

The point is that Rayfire seems to possess endless energy and time to read opposite arguments with one eye closed, then recycle his past arguments and exaggerate them some more to find other ways to show his character has an upper hand. As it is now, this turns into an endless cycle of arguments until the other side simply cannot argue anymore due to exhaustion, and votes arise for Rayfire's characters. I have true difficulty calling this a fair result then.

If I was exaggerating, then I wonder why it’s all in the novels and on her profile… I also find it strange how you’re all against Bakuhatsu after Asuna beat Spagmatron Besides that, you’re still entitled to your vote, but you are more than capable of exaggerating yourself too if you think this is case. (Which I’m very sure it isn’t)

 

[Rayfire]

Point is, I can’t imagine how it’s exaggerated. It might seem that way, sure, but I can’t remember all of my characters’ stats’s, powers, everything the can do all at once bruh. New stuff is going to come up inevitably, which, while a surprise, I don’t think is much of an exaggeration.

 

[Rayfire]

Anyways, time to see what venefica says about this

 

[Froggytron]

I also find it strange how you’re all against Bakuhatsu after Asuna beat Spagmatron

That is an incomplete information. I started to oppose it after nearly every single Spagm's argument got storned by "Asuna dodges everything" and "Asuna speeds ups against anything" played on a loop. If Bakuhatsu allows such a thing for characters at their journey start in its beginning, the verse is far from being balanced.

 

[Javenplayz253]

That is an incomplete information. I started to oppose it after nearly every single Spagm's argument got storned by "Asuna dodges everything" and "Asuna speeds ups against anything" played on a loop. If Bakuhatsu allows such a thing for characters at its beginning, the verse is far from being balanced.

CAN YOU ALL SHUT UP SO WE CAN GET THIS MOVING ON?

 

[Rayfire]

That is an incomplete information. I started to oppose it after nearly every single Spagm's argument got storned by "Asuna dodges everything" and "Asuna speeds ups against anything" played on a loop. If Bakuhatsu allows such a thing for characters at its beginning, the verse is far from being balanced.

Aaaaand that’s exactly why you have the XP system and Skill drawbacks

 

[Rayfire]

I understand if you think it’s a lot of broken stuff at the start, but when you think about it, there’s a bajillion characters in Bakuhatsu that can stomp current Asuna for example. If Chidori didn’t hold back in their fight in Chapter 4, Asuna would have been turned to cheddar cheese, put through a grinder TWICE, and then thrown in the trashbin that is every dead character of the series. :/ I really don’t see how it’d be unfair for some characters and others it will be. If you think it’s that bad, then why did you read it to begin with?

 

[Rayfire]

Anyways, before an argument breaks out over something as small as this, I shall be waiting for Venefica’s well-awaited response

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Meanwhile, if the same happens to haruka, some quick healing magic is all she needs to fix that right up.

This wouldn't be possible if her brain was destroyed (as far as I know), that part goes both ways. Otherwsie seems like a massive reach to assume that Haruka can do anything without a brain

The point is that Rayfire seems to possess endless energy and time to read opposite arguments with one eye closed, then recycle his past arguments and exaggerate them some more to find other ways to show his character has an upper hand. As it is now, this turns into an endless cycle of arguments until the other side simply cannot argue anymore due to exhaustion, and votes arise for Rayfire's characters. I have true difficulty calling this a fair result.

I'm trying to be as impartial as possible, as I've gone to bat for both sides so far, and I did remove my vote for now so grace is gone. At the very least, when this does end regardless of result, I'm hoping to be able to call this match fair

If I was exaggerating, then I wonder why it’s all in the novels and on her profile… I also find it strange how you’re all against Bakuhatsu after Asuna beat Spagmatron Besides that, you’re still entitled to your vote, but you are more than capable of exaggerating yourself too if you think this is case. (Which I’m very sure it isn’t)

Isn't it also true that there were pretty decent missing pieces from Haruka's profile before this match and after the first match? Not everything seems to be on the profile if that's the case

Point is, I can’t imagine how it’s exaggerated. It might seem that way, sure, but I can’t remember all of my characters’ stats’s, powers, everything the can do all at once bruh. New stuff is going to come up inevitably, which, while a surprise, I don’t think is much of an exaggeration.

New stuff isn't allowed to come up mid fight, you can't just assume that your side is able to handle everything the other side can, and vice versa. I think this in particular has been a huge problem throughout this tourney. We had this same type of endless match in the very beginning with Kryn and Finn which resulted in ExSENNA leaving the tourney as whole, and clearly this match is also taking a toll too. When it comes to exaggeration itself, however, what Froggy means to say is that he believes that you are taking what Haruka CAN actually do, and reaching up to its highest possible potential, even though she hasn't shown that capability. In vs threads, you can only go off proven, factual feats of strength and what abilities are generally shown to do, and you can't assume that they can reach outside of that realm, unless it's very likely and even then you need that caveat.

That is an incomplete information. I started to oppose it after nearly every single Spagm's argument got storned by "Asuna dodges everything" and "Asuna speeds ups against anything" played on a loop. If Bakuhatsu allows such a thing for characters at its beginning, the verse is far from being balanced.

This, too, is important. It can't be assumed that ones character dodges everything every time. Neither Haruka or Asuna are perfect, but you seem unwilling to admit when one of them could be in trouble, recycling all the same points for why they dodge even though the other person always provides a brand new thing. Neither have precog or extreme intellect, so while they are very skilled and have reactive evolution, this doesn't lead to a perfect match, and assuming so is, once again, a fallacy. It's certainly believable that they can dodge 'most' of the attacks, but even in very hax shows, they don't just dodge all the hax and fight perfectly the other way on offense while doing so

Aaaaand that’s exactly why you have the XP system and Skill drawbacks

This doesn't seem to have come up very often. These drawbacks, if good, should have a place in the battle, especially if they do in Bakuhatsu, which seems to be the case given that they are prominent. How do the affect this match vs Cinner, then? it can't be that they just don't apply for some reason. I know I've only really skimmed the thread but I don't remember them ever being brought up for Haruka's limitations in this match or even the last match vs Rotten Sewage, where I believe you said that she could defiantly get to High 7-A via reactive. The tourney needs clarification or all the future matches are just going to be this again.

I understand if you think it’s a lot of broken stuff at the start, but when you think about it, there’s a bajillion characters in Bakuhatsu that can stomp current Asuna for example. If Chidori didn’t hold back in their fight in Chapter 4, Asuna would have been turned to cheddar cheese, put through a grinder, and then thrown in the trash. :/ I really don’t see how it’d be unfair for some characters and others it will be.

This doesn't mean anything for either this match or the Spagmatron match, it doesn't matter for this tourney whether or not Asuna can get stomped by some character outside of it, like how it doesn't matter that Aerneia wouold stomp every tourney fighter with one move It should only be brought up to clarify scaling, and even then, if the gap is that big, does it really matter even for that?

 

[MintyBoi1]

What do you mean ‘It won’t be as quick as you think’? I literally showed you 5 seconds ago that it’s a thing that takes a couple minutes. It’s not a varied thing. All those strategies require Haruka to be INSIDE his range, which, once Haruka realizes Cinner has extremely limited range, won’t allow that. And if Cinner is seen predicting Haruka’s attack, well, then Cinner isn’t the only one who can switch strategies. As soon as Haruka switches movement patterns or strategies, that’s not something Cinner can just predict or see coming. He doesn’t have outright prediction, after all. Cinner has experience with long range and has air sense, sure, but if I’m not wrong, he has to block with the staff itself, which is in massive danger of breaking, which will be an instant L for Cinner my guy. :/ That might be something nullify could work on, too, disabling air sense to prevent no sensing shenanigans at all. Like you said at the beginning of the thread, as well, haruka putting Cinner in the void of despair would disorient him, which could not only hinder his prediction abilities, but his air sensing, too. And also, air sense won’t really matter in the first place, since haruka can control all her magic with her mind, AKA, homing attacks. So It’s not going to be as simple as ‘RUH ROH RAGGY!!!! DODGE THIS!!!!’ Cinner will have to dodge alot of attacks constantly following him, which is going to overwhelm him regardless of prediction abilities. Just because you can see it coming, doesn’t mean you can always dodge it in time.

^ If that’s not how it works (Blocking with staff), then what’s not to say that Haruka can’t target the staff, AKA, the bonded item, either? Cinner can’t be in two places at the same time. It’s either he gets hit, or his staff, which he has out his life force into, does. Both are bad news for Cinner, considering that he struggles heavily to regenerate organ damage and other severe damage, unlike Haruka, who is also going to always have the AP edge no matter what. (Will get it up to 5.06x minimum in her favor, AKA, 1.7 Gigatons as per estimations cause there is no canon value of how much physically stronger RE makes you whoops)

^ To do this, haruka simply needs to switch her scythe to a multi-blades form, where she can unleash multiple dark shockwaves straight at him from a distance, which could, in fact, target BOTH Him and lifeline at the same time here, meaning it’s double bad for Cinner, especially since haruka has the option of making her attacks homing one’s, so it won’t be as simple as dodging it once and then forgetting about it, as mentioned above ^. Once again, he can’t be in two places at once. One of them has to take a hit, and both options are bad news for good ol’ stickman. JUST BECAUSE IT’S MADE OUT OF METAL, DOESN’T MEAN HARUKA CAN’T DESTROY IT!

Still didn’t beat ‘em though, did he? And if cinner really can make himself faster, like you say (though I haven’t seen that at all) Haruka just needs to stay out of his range, and it’s also something she can also easily adapt to via reactive evolution, for the millionth time. I’m not sure if cinners’ range section is unfinished or sumthin, but in order for his air manipulation to be usable, the target also has to be… in his range… (Tens of meters at best, as listed) And if he’s already above Haruka when he tries to get in range, wouldn’t haruka still just immediately think to dodge or block the second she see’s that? Metal crusher still beforehand movements, which gives haruka an opportunity to counter it. This is ALSO assuming haruka is still in his range when she discovers his extremely limited range, which she won’t be, since haruka is one to exploit all her enemies’ weaknesses without ANY hesitation.

Mostly, it’ll be good ol slicin and dicin with her magic, which, I don’t know if you noticed, is exactly how you destroy flesh and, y’know, organs…

With the change in gap size, it should take longer for Haruka to equal Cinner than Asuna to equal Kedron. We’re reaching NLF territory if Haruka can just instantly match anyone regardless of skill level. And if Haruka can see what Cinner does coming, I think the same thing should apply the other way regardless of Haruka changing strategies. I feel the staff would have to take heavy abuse at least a few times over Cinner’s durability to be broken. Like said it scales above him and hasn’t shown to be so much as chipped even against someone equal to him with repeated clashing and blocking including piercing and cutting attacks. Cinner lives off dodging AND blocking, so if Lifeline is in bad shape he can switch up. I don’t think the void would disorient his senses unless it’s been shown to do so. And this is the first time you mentioned Haruka will be using homing attacks or controlling projectiles with her mind so I forgot, but since this is in an endless city, Cinner can make the attacks crash into something or block them. Also what happens if they just scratch him, will they stay or go?

Cinner doesn’t really struggle to regenerate anything other than organs, like I said he regenerated a cut up arm mid fight. And like said he can make the homing attacks hit something else or mitigate the amount of him they hit.

It sounds like Cinner needs to race against the clock before Haruka fully powers up and uses her AOE, assuming those scythe things are AOE. It’s a good thing his kit is built for rushing you down and biding time by dodging and defending until he can personally break you down. And I’m not saying the material is the most important factor, just metal is very resilient. Haruka has to shatter Lifeline to itty bits before Cinner lets it go.

Just because he didn’t win doesn’t mean it’s not impressive; lasting days in a ring with Mike Tyson on steroids would be a pretty big feat. Cinner scales above Haruka who scales above Asuna who got equal to Kedron. And you still refuse to answer why Haruka never gets into range with her scythe, even on a first attempt. It’s not like she can instantly pin down Cinner’s powers especially when he has longer range options like aura and projectiles. If Haruka is such a good close range fighter like you say, she shouldn’t be afraid to just try melee when Cinner starts blocking her long range stuff. He can still pursue her when she goes for portals, whether in front of or below Haruka. And Haruka’s brain better be a super computer for her to think to dodge and do it as Cinner is crashing down while lowering his fall time, basically dropping himself like a 150 pound weight. Even someone like Batman can be caught off guard. When Jonathan saw DIO fire his stingy eyes from a distance away, he could just move his hand to block it even though he should be FTL like the attack is. She’s not invincible, you make it sound like she’ll never be hit which I think is genuinely unfair.

So her darkness attacks cut you? This would’ve been useful specification a while ago.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

She’s not invincible, you make it sound like she’ll never be hit which I think is genuinely unfair.

I feel I ought to point out that rotten Sewage didn't land any attack at all, but I don't want to seem like I'm biased because I lost, but I'll say so anyway since it seems to be relevant to this

 

[Javenplayz253]

With the change in gap size, it should take longer for Haruka to equal Cinner than Asuna to equal Kedron. We’re reaching NLF territory if Haruka can just instantly match anyone regardless of skill level. And if Haruka can see what Cinner does coming, I think the same thing should apply the other way regardless of Haruka changing strategies. I feel the staff would have to take heavy abuse at least a few times over Cinner’s durability to be broken. Like said it scales above him and hasn’t shown to be so much as chipped even against someone equal to him with repeated clashing and blocking including piercing and cutting attacks. Cinner lives off dodging AND blocking, so if Lifeline is in bad shape he can switch up. I don’t think the void would disorient his senses unless it’s been shown to do so. And this is the first time you mentioned Haruka will be using homing attacks or controlling projectiles with her mind so I forgot, but since this is in an endless city, Cinner can make the attacks crash into something or block them. Also what happens if they just scratch him, will they stay or go?

Cinner doesn’t really struggle to regenerate anything other than organs, like I said he regenerated a cut up arm mid fight. And like said he can make the homing attacks hit something else or mitigate the amount of him they hit.

It sounds like Cinner needs to race against the clock before Haruka fully powers up and uses her AOE, assuming those scythe things are AOE. It’s a good thing his kit is built for rushing you down and biding time by dodging and defending until he can personally break you down. And I’m not saying the material is the most important factor, just metal is very resilient. Haruka has to shatter Lifeline to itty bits before Cinner lets it go.

Just because he didn’t win doesn’t mean it’s not impressive; lasting days in a ring with Mike Tyson on steroids would be a pretty big feat. Cinner scales above Haruka who scales above Asuna who got equal to Kedron. And you still refuse to answer why Haruka never gets into range with her scythe, even on a first attempt. It’s not like she can instantly pin down Cinner’s powers especially when he has longer range options like aura and projectiles. If Haruka is such a good close range fighter like you say, she shouldn’t be afraid to just try melee when Cinner starts blocking her long range stuff. He can still pursue her when she goes for portals, whether in front of or below Haruka. And Haruka’s brain better be a super computer for her to think to dodge and do it as Cinner is crashing down while lowering his fall time, basically dropping himself like a 150 pound weight. Even someone like Batman can be caught off guard. When Jonathan saw DIO fire his stingy eyes from a distance away, he could just move his hand to block it even though he should be FTL like the attack is. She’s not invincible, you make it sound like she’ll never be hit which I think is genuinely unfair.

So her darkness attacks cut you? This would’ve been useful specification a while ago.

This wouldn't be possible if her brain was destroyed (as far as I know), that part goes both ways. Otherwsie seems like a massive reach to assume that Haruka can do anything without a brain

I'm trying to be as impartial as possible, as I've gone to bat for both sides so far, and I did remove my vote for now so grace is gone. At the very least, when this does end regardless of result, I'm hoping to be able to call this match fair

Isn't it also true that there were pretty decent missing pieces from Haruka's profile before this match and after the first match? Not everything seems to be on the profile if that's the case

New stuff isn't allowed to come up mid fight, you can't just assume that your side is able to handle everything the other side can, and vice versa. I think this in particular has been a huge problem throughout this tourney. We had this same type of endless match in the very beginning with Kryn and Finn which resulted in ExSENNA leaving the tourney as whole, and clearly this match is also taking a toll too. When it comes to exaggeration itself, however, what Froggy means to say is that he believes that you are taking what Haruka CAN actually do, and reaching up to its highest possible potential, even though she hasn't shown that capability. In vs threads, you can only go off proven, factual feats of strength and what abilities are generally shown to do, and you can't assume that they can reach outside of that realm, unless it's very likely and even then you need that caveat.

This, too, is important. It can't be assumed that ones character dodges everything every time. Neither Haruka or Asuna are perfect, but you seem unwilling to admit when one of them could be in trouble, recycling all the same points for why they dodge even though the other person always provides a brand new thing. Neither have precog or extreme intellect, so while they are very skilled and have reactive evolution, this doesn't lead to a perfect match, and assuming so is, once again, a fallacy. It's certainly believable that they can dodge 'most' of the attacks, but even in very hax shows, they don't just dodge all the hax and fight perfectly the other way on offense while doing so

This doesn't seem to have come up very often. These drawbacks, if good, should have a place in the battle, especially if they do in Bakuhatsu, which seems to be the case given that they are prominent. How do the affect this match vs Cinner, then? it can't be that they just don't apply for some reason. I know I've only really skimmed the thread but I don't remember them ever being brought up for Haruka's limitations in this match or even the last match vs Rotten Sewage, where I believe you said that she could defiantly get to High 7-A via reactive. The tourney needs clarification or all the future matches are just going to be this again.

This doesn't mean anything for either this match or the Spagmatron match, it doesn't matter for this tourney whether or not Asuna can get stomped by some character outside of it, like how it doesn't matter that Aerneia wouold stomp every tourney fighter with one move It should only be brought up to clarify scaling, and even then, if the gap is that big, does it really matter even for that?

CAN ALL OF YOU BE QUIET FOR 1 SECOND AND STOP THIS DEBATE? I'VE HAD ENOUGH OF THIS BACK AND FORTH ARGUMENT!

 

[MintyBoi1]

Just because you can’t feel pain does not mean you still aren’t damaged :/ This is the problem people with CIP in real life have. They might not realize it, but they could be severely injured at some point, which will be exactly cinners’ problem. Like you said before in this thread, supernatural willpower can’t save you from physical damage forever, so if cinner loses all his blood or something, he’s done for. Additionally, he hasn’t been shown to have resisted having his frickin heart or brain destroyed, which will DEFINITELY make him physically unable to move even if he has proof that he can survive something like that. Meanwhile, if the same happens to haruka, some quick healing magic is all she needs to fix that right up.

Yeah he’ll be damaged, but Haruka will struggle heavily to wear him down like she needs to to win. You made a big deal off Asuna shrugging off a hole in her, Cinner can too. She can disable him, but she’ll have to get really good hits in and decently frequently with his healing/endurance/will. And you never mentioned Haruka targeting his organs either, so that could work. But like I said, Cinner would also be trying to pin Haruka to destroy her throat/spine and/or skull so it’s a two way street. Quick healing magic won’t work if you can’t survive long enough to cast it and given only low-mid regen, we’re Gucci.

 

[Froggytron]

Aaaaand that’s exactly why you have the XP system and Skill drawbacks

I don't remember any of them (besides cooldowns, which I repeatedly see you overlooking as the threats get more pages)

I really don’t see how it’d be unfair for some characters and others it will be. If you think it’s that bad, then why did you read it to begin with?

I didn't, I planned though

When it comes to exaggeration itself, however, what Froggy means to say is that he believes that you are taking what Haruka CAN actually do, and reaching up to its highest possible potential, even though she hasn't shown that capability. In vs threads, you can only go off proven, factual feats of strength and what abilities are generally shown to do, and you can't assume that they can reach outside of that realm, unless it's very likely and even then you need that caveat.

This, too, is important. It can't be assumed that ones character dodges everything every time. Neither Haruka or Asuna are perfect, but you seem unwilling to admit when one of them could be in trouble, recycling all the same points for why they dodge even though the other person always provides a brand new thing. Neither have precog or extreme intellect, so while they are very skilled and have reactive evolution, this doesn't lead to a perfect match, and assuming so is, once again, a fallacy. It's certainly believable that they can dodge 'most' of the attacks, but even in very hax shows, they don't just dodge all the hax and fight perfectly the other way on offense while doing so

This doesn't mean anything for either this match or the Spagmatron match, it doesn't matter for this tourney whether or not Asuna can get stomped by some character outside of it, like how it doesn't matter that Aerneia wouold stomp every tourney fighter with one move It should only be brought up to clarify scaling, and even then, if the gap is that big, does it really matter even for that?

Vene did a good job at explaining all my claims in an more understandable way

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Also Rayfire I don't want you to feel like everybody is all against you at once, I'm just trying my best to be a mediator here

 

[Javenplayz253]

Vene did a good job at explaining all my claims in an more understandable way

I have a better claim!
STOPPING THIS ARGUMENT.

 

[Froggytron]

CAN ALL OF YOU BE QUIET FOR 1 SECOND AND STOP THIS DEBATE? I'VE HAD ENOUGH OF THIS BACK AND FORTH ARGUMENT!

I am not sure if you get why we have this debate Javen. Perhaps after arguing in 'Javen vs Asuna' you would get it tho

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Vene did a good job at explaining all my claims in an more understandable way

I realize I didn't say that 'I believed' you were thinking that, instead I spoke like it was absolute, so I apologize for speaking for you in that way, but I'm glad that I was correct about your thought process

 

[Javenplayz253]

I am not sure if you get why we have this debate Javen. Perhaps after arguing in 'Javen vs Asuna' you would get it tho

Nah I'm canceling it

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Nah I'm canceling it

 

[Javenplayz253]

 

[Rayfire]

This wouldn't be possible if her brain was destroyed (as far as I know), that part goes both ways. Otherwsie seems like a massive reach to assume that Haruka can do anything without a brain

Ye, mb that makes no sense lol

New stuff isn't allowed to come up mid fight, you can't just assume that your side is able to handle everything the other side can, and vice versa. I think this in particular has been a huge problem throughout this tourney. We had this same type of endless match in the very beginning with Kryn and Finn which resulted in ExSENNA leaving the tourney as whole, and clearly this match is also taking a toll too. When it comes to exaggeration itself, however, what Froggy means to say is that he believes that you are taking what Haruka CAN actually do, and reaching up to its highest possible potential, even though she hasn't shown that capability. In vs threads, you can only go off proven, factual feats of strength and what abilities are generally shown to do, and you can't assume that they can reach outside of that realm, unless it's very likely and even then you need that caveat.

I’m not trying to assume anything. Haruka risks getting hit, obviously, I’m just explaining her options for dodging or overall defending which I think is plentiful. If it came off that way, I apologise. I don’t see how I’m stretching anything at all, I’ve already explained this. Haruka doesn’t have much screen time outside of her fight with Shizu, obviously, but she’s generally comparable (or superior depending on your interpretation) to both Asuna and Shizu, so outside of shown magical types and unique abilities, like danger sense, I don’t see how I’m stretching anything.

This, too, is important. It can't be assumed that ones character dodges everything every time. Neither Haruka or Asuna are perfect, but you seem unwilling to admit when one of them could be in trouble, recycling all the same points for why they dodge even though the other person always provides a brand new thing. Neither have precog or extreme intellect, so while they are very skilled and have reactive evolution, this doesn't lead to a perfect match, and assuming so is, once again, a fallacy. It's certainly believable that they can dodge 'most' of the attacks, but even in very hax shows, they don't just dodge all the hax and fight perfectly the other way on offense while doing so

If I was unwilling to admit haruka won’t take any hits AT ALL, then I would have been like ‘Nuh uh, the void of despair can do this and that, so cinner cant escape’ but I didn’t. Cinner had some pretty fair arguments to escape from it. I’m not trying to say haruka dodges everything. Once again, I’m just explaining that haruka has plenty of options to do so.

This doesn't seem to have come up very often. These drawbacks, if good, should have a place in the battle, especially if they do in Bakuhatsu, which seems to be the case given that they are prominent. How do the affect this match vs Cinner, then? it can't be that they just don't apply for some reason. I know I've only really skimmed the thread but I don't remember them ever being brought up for Haruka's limitations in this match or even the last match vs Rotten Sewage, where I believe you said that she could defiantly get to High 7-A via reactive. The tourney needs clarification or all the future matches are just going to be this again.

Well, for starters, the void of despair is escapable, reactive evolution isn’t eternal AP increase in a fight (Cause XP System), and a bunch of stuff like that. I’m very sure I said haruka can help close the AP gap, but not surpass Rotten sewages’ AP with her own RE there as well. If I was exaggerating things, then I wouldn’t have brought that up to begin with.

I feel I ought to point out that rotten Sewage didn't land any attack at all, but I don't want to seem like I'm biased because I lost, but I'll say so anyway since it seems to be relevant to this

I never say it was outright impossible for rotten sewage to land hits, again, I just said that haruka’s options were plentiful, like it is here

Also Rayfire I don't want you to feel like everybody is all against you at once, I'm just trying my best to be a mediator here

It definitely feels that way tho. Thanks for the clarification, but whatever I’m doing wrong, I’m not doing it intentionally. I thought all of this was explained before or just understandable through logic, but apparently it isn’t

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

It definitely feels that way tho. Thanks for the clarification, but whatever I’m doing wrong, I’m not doing it intentionally. I thought all of this was explained before or just understandable through logic, but apparently it isn’t

I suppose Minty and Froggy both feel as if Cinner is being underestimated here, possibly substantially so

 

[MintyBoi1]

I suppose Minty and Froggy both feel as if Cinner is being underestimated here, possibly substantially so

I was about to say that because that’s exactly how I’ve been feeling. Froggy and I are a bit frustrated because I can’t recall it ever being mentioned Cinner would be able to hit Haruka outside of explanations of why her healing and portals would let her escape right after. And Froggy’s match had a lot of Asuna dodging and never being hit.

 

[Rayfire]

With the change in gap size, it should take longer for Haruka to equal Cinner than Asuna to equal Kedron. We’re reaching NLF territory if Haruka can just instantly match anyone regardless of skill level. And if Haruka can see what Cinner does coming, I think the same thing should apply the other way regardless of Haruka changing strategies. I feel the staff would have to take heavy abuse at least a few times over Cinner’s durability to be broken. Like said it scales above him and hasn’t shown to be so much as chipped even against someone equal to him with repeated clashing and blocking including piercing and cutting attacks. Cinner lives off dodging AND blocking, so if Lifeline is in bad shape he can switch up. I don’t think the void would disorient his senses unless it’s been shown to do so. And this is the first time you mentioned Haruka will be using homing attacks or controlling projectiles with her mind so I forgot, but since this is in an endless city, Cinner can make the attacks crash into something or block them. Also what happens if they just scratch him, will they stay or go?

Obviously, if it’s someone with infinite skill, like a god, the RE won’t help much. I think that should be obvious, since it would take literally forever for RE to do that. I don’t see how it’s NLF, especially with the XP System limiting AP Gain within it. And yeah, it’s the first time I mentioned it, but only because I remembered it, lol. It’s on haruka’s profile right in front of you, in case you want to question me again. Just because he switches up, doesn’t mean haruka still can’t target it once she knows what it is (Already explained, but her Info-analysis is entirely intelligence-based, hence, Genius intelligence, so I really don’t find it far-fetched someone as smart as haruka wouldn’t figure this out. I really don’t think it’s much of an exaggeration at all if she can know what your greatest fears are just by looking at you.) Unless it can disappear or sumthin, obviously. But I don’t think it can heal, can it? Depends on how serious haruka is, I guess. If her attacks miss or scratch him, since she doesn’t need to create another one, I guess it’ll just keep going after him if haruka so chooses. Haruka can also destroy the entire area around them to prevent any ‘Oh, if I run here the magic will hit that building!’ Shenanigans.

Just because he didn’t win doesn’t mean it’s not impressive; lasting days in a ring with Mike Tyson on steroids would be a pretty big feat. Cinner scales above Haruka who scales above Asuna who got equal to Kedron. And you still refuse to answer why Haruka never gets into range with her scythe, even on a first attempt. It’s not like she can instantly pin down Cinner’s powers especially when he has longer range options like aura and projectiles. If Haruka is such a good close range fighter like you say, she shouldn’t be afraid to just try melee when Cinner starts blocking her long range stuff. He can still pursue her when she goes for portals, whether in front of or below Haruka. And Haruka’s brain better be a super computer for her to think to dodge and do it as Cinner is crashing down while lowering his fall time, basically dropping himself like a 150 pound weight. Even someone like Batman can be caught off guard. When Jonathan saw DIO fire his stingy eyes from a distance away, he could just move his hand to block it even though he should be FTL like the attack is. She’s not invincible, you make it sound like she’ll never be hit which I think is genuinely unfair.

I wasn’t saying it wasn’t impressive, obviously, I just thought it was strange he couldn’t beat him, meanwhile, since you’re comparing rinser to Kedron in terms of danmaku, Asuna (With a bit of help) could defeat him despite being at a disadvantage in, well, basically everything at the start. Cinners’ range isn’t longer at all, I’m pretty sure (Hundreds of kilometres >>> Tens of meters) You’re assuming that ‘Oh, if she has a scythe, she has to get in close!’ When she doesn’t even really need to at all. It’s not impossible for haruka to try outright melee, obviously, but once haruka adapts through RE, I didn’t think it needed to be discussed, since it would hardly be a difference from long-range combat.

So her darkness attacks cut you? This would’ve been useful specification a while ago.

I thought it was pretty obvious…

 

[Rayfire]

I was about to say that because that’s exactly how I’ve been feeling. Froggy and I are a bit frustrated because I can’t recall it ever being mentioned Cinner would be able to hit Haruka outside of explanations of why her healing and portals would let her escape right after. And Froggy’s match had a lot of Asuna dodging and never being hit.

I, once again, never said haruka would NEVER be hit, I’m just saying she has plenty of options to do so. If it came off that way, I’m sorry. In their respective matches, both had plentiful options to dodge or defend (In Asuna’s case, it was speed amps, danger sense detecting everything except the red circles, RE, time magic to hinder spag’s adaptation so she’d always be able to stay faster, etc.) but I never stated ‘Oh, it’s impossible for so-and-so to hit Asuna!!!’ I just meant that Asuna had a lot of options to defend against attacks

 

[Rayfire]

I suppose Minty and Froggy both feel as if Cinner is being underestimated here, possibly substantially so

I don’t mean to say cinner is completely fodder (I literally said he was a goat earlier ) if it came off like that, then once again I apologise, but I’m very sure that he can escape from the void of despair, for example. If I was underestimating/downplaying him, I’d be ‘NOOO!!!!! HE CAN’T ESCAPE THE VOID OF DESPAIR BECAUSE HE’D BE TRAPPED IN WATER WHICH IS HIS WORST NOGHTMARE!!!!” Or something like that earlier. I also literally said haruka would need RE to aid her in landing a hit, that cinner as an initial skill advantage, etc. If I was underestimating him and purely just trying to win VS threads, I wouldn’t have said none of that, but I did

 

[MintyBoi1]

Obviously, if it’s someone with infinite skill, like a god, the RE won’t help much. I think that should be obvious, since it would take literally forever for RE to do that. I don’t see how it’s NLF, especially with the XP System limiting AP Gain within it. And yeah, it’s the first time I mentioned it, but only because I remembered it, lol. It’s on haruka’s profile right in front of you, in case you want to question me again. Just because he switches up, doesn’t mean haruka still can’t target it once she knows what it is (Already explained, but her Info-analysis is entirely intelligence-based, hence, Genius intelligence, so I really don’t find it far-fetched someone as smart as haruka wouldn’t figure this out. I really don’t think it’s much of an exaggeration at all if she can know what your greatest fears are just by looking at you.) Unless it can disappear or sumthin, obviously. But I don’t think it can heal, can it? Depends on how serious haruka is, I guess. If her attacks miss or scratch him, since she doesn’t need to create another one, I guess it’ll just keep going after him if haruka so chooses. Haruka can also destroy the entire area around them to prevent any ‘Oh, if I run here the magic will hit that building!’ Shenanigans.

I wasn’t saying it wasn’t impressive, obviously, I just thought it was strange he couldn’t beat him, meanwhile, since you’re comparing rinser to Kedron in terms of danmaku, Asuna (With a bit of help) could defeat him despite being at a disadvantage in, well, basically everything at the start. Cinners’ range isn’t longer at all, I’m pretty sure (Hundreds of kilometres >>> Tens of meters) You’re assuming that ‘Oh, if she has a scythe, she has to get in close!’ When she doesn’t even really need to at all. It’s not impossible for haruka to try outright melee, obviously, but once haruka adapts through RE, I didn’t think it needed to be discussed, since it would hardly be a difference from long-range combat.

I thought it was pretty obvious…

I don’t know Bakuhatsu very well so I feel I needed that explanation on XP since the profile is brief. And Cinner has admitted skill upscaling from Haruka which should be pretty vast with the high tier feats I mentioned. It should take more than a few minutes to match him imo. I feel the fear thing making her smart enough to immediately formulate an out of verse concept is a bit much. It’s like Goku seeing Naruto’s stuff and immediately figuring it out, I think it’d take a bit. And yeah Lifeline can be damaged but I have reasons to think it wouldn’t be easy. So there’s no way for Haruka’s attacks to be dissipated besides hitting Cinner included mitigated contact?

Your wording made it sound like that. I was more going for his overall skill while mentioning the projectiles to show added difficulty in fighting him. And if Haruka ever gets in close which it sounds like she should at some point or Cinner successfully catches up to her, his several meters will beat out her extended melee range. I think it would be pretty different from her long range.

I just assumed it would blast you like pressurized water for example.

I, once again, never said haruka would NEVER be hit, I’m just saying she has plenty of options to do so. If it came off that way, I’m sorry. In their respective matches, both had plentiful options to dodge or defend (In Asuna’s case, it was speed amps, danger sense detecting everything except the red circles, RE, time magic to hinder spag’s adaptation so she’d always be able to stay faster, etc.) but I never stated ‘Oh, it’s impossible for so-and-so to hit Asuna!!!’ I just meant that Asuna had a lot of options to defend against attacks

You’ve been telling me that she can use the very limited time between Cinner using Metal Crush and it hitting her to surely react. I don’t doubt she can somewhat keep up with Cinner, but his techniques should manage to catch her a few times. And I didn’t see the full thread there, I just know of Asuna’s amps and frogs laser Danmaku. Just something I thought was relevant.

I don’t mean to say cinner is completely fodder (I literally said he was a goat earlier ) if it came off like that, then once again I apologise, but I’m very sure that he can escape from the void of despair, for example. If I was underestimating/downplaying him, I’d be ‘NOOO!!!!! HE CAN’T ESCAPE THE VOID OF DESPAIR BECAUSE HE’D BE TRAPPED IN WATER WHICH IS HIS WORST NOGHTMARE!!!!” Or something like that earlier. I also literally said haruka would need RE to aid her in landing a hit, that cinner as an initial skill advantage, etc. If I was underestimating him and purely just trying to win VS threads, I wouldn’t have said none of that, but I did

I appreciate that. It does just feel iffy with Haruka dodging Lightning Breaker and Metal Crush just like that even when they could have a melee confrontation before Haruka’s RE completely kicks in.

 

[Rayfire]

I don’t know Bakuhatsu very well so I feel I needed that explanation on XP since the profile is brief. And Cinner has admitted skill upscaling from Haruka which should be pretty vast with the high tier feats I mentioned. It should take more than a few minutes to match him imo. I feel the fear thing making her smart enough to immediately formulate an out of verse concept is a bit much. It’s like Goku seeing Naruto’s stuff and immediately figuring it out, I think it’d take a bit. And yeah Lifeline can be damaged but I have reasons to think it wouldn’t be easy. So there’s no way for Haruka’s attacks to be dissipated besides hitting Cinner included mitigated contact?

If someone like Asuna at the very start of the series can match something as experienced and skilled as kedron, I really, once again, don’t think it’ll take much for haruka, who is already extremely skilled in her own right, to match cinner. Basically, XP in Bakuhatsu is a definition for power they have salvaged from killing other beings, which is absorbed by their soul, therefore making them more powerful and capable. Adventurers, with a strong enough will, can push their soul to the limits to get an AP increase, but it won’t extend endlessly, otherwise Asuna would be able to solo her own verse by now. This is what I mean by RE doesn’t work for AP forever, but it does work as rapid adaptation to the current situation, provided the user has a strong enough will, which, since haruka is implied to be very experienced, on her own, no less, and has basically become super hardened, is, once again, pretty good justification to do all of that.

Yeah, that’s what I meant with the intelligence thing. It’s not like haruka knows EVERYTHING about someone instantly, otherwise she’d know that Asuna was an otherworlder straight away, so saying she could figure it out straight away is absolutely not what I meant, as I’ve already said before I think, But I think it’s obvious that she’ll figure it out with even the slightest hint, even if it’s not immediate.

Haruka can use multiple skills at the same time, but I think more basic attacks like the dark shockwaves from her scythe should be no problem for her to control constantly, so she’ll have no problem using them to keep attacking cinner, which would also help her with bypassing his air sense with AoE attacks to hit both him and lifeline, like ultimate darkness strike, since cinner is being forced to dodge, which haruka can keep up with via shadow portals to constantly pressure him from outside his tens of meters range.

Your wording made it sound like that. I was more going for his overall skill while mentioning the projectiles to show added difficulty in fighting him. And if Haruka ever gets in close which it sounds like she should at some point or Cinner successfully catches up to her, his several meters will beat out her extended melee range. I think it would be pretty different from her long range.

Nullify can disable extension to avoid any of those shenanigans, and it’s not like Haruka has to go absolutely melee if it comes down to it. She can still her skills whilst inside cinners’ range.

You’ve been telling me that she can use the very limited time between Cinner using Metal Crush and it hitting her to surely react. I don’t doubt she can somewhat keep up with Cinner, but his techniques should manage to catch her a few times. And I didn’t see the full thread there, I just know of Asuna’s amps and frogs laser Danmaku. Just something I thought was relevant.

Bakuhatsu characters frequently fight in close quarters and with quick timing (For example haruka dodging Shizu’s million streaks skill right after it was fired) which is part of the reasoning why I thought haruka could dodge metal crusher, since haruka is experienced with thinking quickly like that, regardless of how little of a timeframe it takes for cinner to leap/somersault. This is also assuming it’s within cinners’ range. If I sound like I’m ‘exaggerating’ again, then just in case, I already showed my reasoning for why, even if haruka got hit, she’d be unlikely to get brain damage. It’s not a guarantee, cinner has inferior AP, and even more so when haruka’s RE kicks in, etc. once again, I was never saying it’s impossible for metal crusher to land, otherwise, I wouldn’t have said this earlier.

I appreciate that. It does just feel iffy with Haruka dodging Lightning Breaker and Metal Crush just like that even when they could have a melee confrontation before Haruka’s RE completely kicks in.

Explained above with slightly better reasoning than before in case you still don’t understand ^

 

[Rayfire]

I think the difference between what will happen when either of them gets hit should also be established, since both me and minty think their character can dodge the other quite well, so I’ll do this from both perspectives with this in mind.

WHAT HAPPENS IF EITHER OF THEM GETS HIT IN THIS FIGHT?!?!

1. If haruka gets hit, no big deal. She has a 1.7x durability edge scaling to her AP, and she can heal any damage she takes really quickly. She also has a 5.06x durability edge in the same case once adapted, so she might not even notice any attacks cinner does land, and it would presumably make giving her brain damage with metal crusher super difficult with this in mind, too. She had a dura edge as is in base to help with that, so an even bigger increase in that will probably make it not very feasible even if cinner can land it consistently.

2. If cinner gets hit, if it’s base haruka, he can probably shrug it off shortly afterwards, BUT if it’s RE adapted haruka, she has a 5.06x AP advantage. Still not enough to oneshot, obviously, but any hit cinner does take is going to be devastating, regardless of whether himself or lifeline is struck (Which, haruka can target both as explained before with multi-bladed scythe) And it will likely cause organ damage for cinner, considering he’s dealing with mostly piercing damage, which he will struggle to heal from.

…Yeah.

 

[MintyBoi1]

If someone like Asuna at the very start of the series can match something as experienced and skilled as kedron, I really, once again, don’t think it’ll take much for haruka, who is already extremely skilled in her own right, to match cinner. Basically, XP in Bakuhatsu is a definition for power they have salvaged from killing other beings, which is absorbed by their soul, therefore making them more powerful and capable. Adventurers, with a strong enough will, can push their soul to the limits to get an AP increase, but it won’t extend endlessly, otherwise Asuna would be able to solo her own verse by now. This is what I mean by RE doesn’t work for AP forever, but it does work as rapid adaptation to the current situation, provided the user has a strong enough will, which, since haruka is implied to be very experienced, on her own, no less, and has basically become super hardened, is, once again, pretty good justification to do all of that.

Yeah, that’s what I meant with the intelligence thing. It’s not like haruka knows EVERYTHING about someone instantly, otherwise she’d know that Asuna was an otherworlder straight away, so saying she could figure it out straight away is absolutely not what I meant, as I’ve already said before I think, But I think it’s obvious that she’ll figure it out with even the slightest hint, even if it’s not immediate.

Haruka can use multiple skills at the same time, but I think more basic attacks like the dark shockwaves from her scythe should be no problem for her to control constantly, so she’ll have no problem using them to keep attacking cinner, which would also help her with bypassing his air sense with AoE attacks to hit both him and lifeline, like ultimate darkness strike, since cinner is being forced to dodge, which haruka can keep up with via shadow portals to constantly pressure him from outside his tens of meters range.

Nullify can disable extension to avoid any of those shenanigans, and it’s not like Haruka has to go absolutely melee if it comes down to it. She can still her skills whilst inside cinners’ range.

Bakuhatsu characters frequently fight in close quarters and with quick timing (For example haruka dodging Shizu’s million streaks skill right after it was fired) which is part of the reasoning why I thought haruka could dodge metal crusher, since haruka is experienced with thinking quickly like that, regardless of how little of a timeframe it takes for cinner to leap/somersault. This is also assuming it’s within cinners’ range. If I sound like I’m ‘exaggerating’ again, then just in case, I already showed my reasoning for why, even if haruka got hit, she’d be unlikely to get brain damage. It’s not a guarantee, cinner has inferior AP, and even more so when haruka’s RE kicks in, etc. once again, I was never saying it’s impossible for metal crusher to land, otherwise, I wouldn’t have said this earlier.

Explained above with slightly better reasoning than before in case you still don’t understand ^

Agree to disagree then. But that clarification on XP does make it easier to know how they do it with pushing their limits.

Ok so she could possibly figure out Object Bond, though I lean for not being able to nullify since it’s iffy to really call it a skill and it isn’t as similar to magic compared to Ki.

Then I suppose Cinner will have to keep blocking/dodging and burning at them with his aura until they’re all gone. I also wonder if air pulling could force Haruka’s concentration on controlling the attacks to be broken, making them fall away from him.

That is true, though nullify has a cooldown to consider and like how Haruka is super precise on firing, Cinner is super precise on blocking projectiles. And Cinner’s air pulling would be more effective at a closer range.

Ok that does make it make more sense she could dodge, though I think Cinner’s creativity and feinting could let him hit one even if it alone isn’t enough for the brain damage.

WHAT HAPPENS IF EITHER OF THEM GETS HIT IN THIS FIGHT?!?!

1. If haruka gets hit, no big deal. She has a 1.7x durability edge scaling to her AP, and she can heal any damage she takes really quickly. She also has a 5.06x durability edge in the same case once adapted, so she might not even notice any attacks cinner does land, and it would presumably make giving her brain damage with metal crusher super difficult with this in mind, too. She had a dura edge as is in base to help with that, so an even bigger increase in that will probably make it not very feasible even if cinner can land it consistently.

2. If cinner gets hit, if it’s base haruka, he can probably shrug it off shortly afterwards, BUT if it’s RE adapted haruka, she has a 5.06x AP advantage. Still not enough to oneshot, obviously, but any hit cinner does take is going to be devastating, regardless of whether himself or lifeline is struck (Which, haruka can target both as explained before with multi-bladed scythe) And it will likely cause organ damage for cinner, considering he’s dealing with mostly piercing damage, which he will struggle to heal from.

…Yeah.

I don’t think Haruka’s initial durability edge is really enough to stop her being damaged by a hit, especially if she gets crushed down upon or comboed. But she can heal which is part of why this fight is so hard for Cinner. 5x is still outside of one shot range, so it’s not like she’s so much stronger she won’t be hurt. It’ll just take more attacks than before. Though Cinner can use momentum to give himself a bit of a hand. I think he can still potentially execute his win con, especially with more fragile parts like the throat. There’s also him making her brain touch her skull which can knock out someone regardless of durability. It’s how Rei beat Saw Paing in Kengan Ashura despite the latter’s superior power and durability.

Right, like I said Cinner will have to hurry to get the cleanest victory possible here or risk being knocked out or cut apart. He will have to use his acrobatics, experience, sensing, and air pulling in tandem here to not only catch Haruka but also avoid being beaten himself.

 

[MintyBoi1]

I think we’ve cleared things up here and Haruka’s abilities being fully clarified makes it easier to visualize her getting the upper hand though I still believe Cinner’s advantages will let him win more times than not. Suppose now it’s really time for voting.

 

[Javenplayz253]

I think we’ve cleared things up here and Haruka’s abilities being fully clarified makes it easier to visualize her getting the upper hand though I still believe Cinner’s advantages will let him win more times than not. Suppose now it’s really time for voting.

Every single f*cking time we come to this we get hit with:
"BUTTT WAIITTT!"
Screw it
Incon fra
Both have really good arguments but I really can't see why both combatants can win here.

 

[Rayfire]

Then I suppose Cinner will have to keep blocking/dodging and burning at them with his aura until they’re all gone. I also wonder if air pulling could force Haruka’s concentration on controlling the attacks to be broken, making them fall away from him.

If Haruka and other adventurers can fight continuously whilst using multiple skills, I don’t think air pull will make that happen. If heat aura is being a problem for landing hits (Although I don’t think it should be) Haruka can always nullify that when she gets a sure fire opportunity to land a hit.

That is true, though nullify has a cooldown to consider and like how Haruka is super precise on firing, Cinner is super precise on blocking projectiles. And Cinner’s air pulling would be more effective at a closer range.

How does cinner block? Does he do it with his hands or with his staff? Haruka would also be targeting lifeline once she figures out what it is later on, and she could also transform her scythe into it’s multi-bladed form to target both of them at the same, and as I’ve said before, cinner can’t be in multiple spots at once. In this case, He has to either block it and take (partial) damage, or let lifeline get hit, and most likely be destroyed, especially if haruka is adapted by this point.

Ok that does make it more sense she could dodge, though I think Cinner’s creativity and feinting could let him hit one even if it alone isn’t enough for the brain damage.

Haruka can also feint, which is what I meant by her switching strategies or movement mid-fight to throw off cinners’ prediction

 

[MintyBoi1]

Every single f*cking time we come to this we get hit with:
"BUTTT WAIITTT!"
Screw it
Incon fra
Both have really good arguments but I really can't see why both combatants can win here.

I know but I seriously don’t know what could change now. All cards have been played