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Lord of the Rings revisions

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Antvasima said:
@Tyranno223 @TheMerchant66

So what should currently be done here?
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I agree with Merchant's stance on Abstract Existence.

Regarding Higher-Dimensional Existence, I think it should apply to Eru and the Ainur (in their origin), as the language implies Eru's "reality" to be higher than the Legendarium ("Primary Reality" vs "Secondary Reality" as well as language saying that the movement of the Ainur into the LOTR univerese was a "descent/descension").

Plus we already have Eru as 5-D for having the Legendarium be fiction to him.
 
Tyranno223 said:
I agree with Merchant's stance on Abstract Existence.

Regarding Higher-Dimensional Existence, I think it should apply to Eru and the Ainur (in their origin), as the language implies Eru's "reality" to be higher than the Legendarium ("Primary Reality" vs "Secondary Reality" as well as language saying that the movement of the Ainur into the LOTR univerese was a "descent/descension").

Plus we already have Eru as 5-D for having the Legendarium be fiction to him.
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I agree with Higher Dimensional Existence, but it must be applicable even though it is limited.
 
Tyranno223 said:
Saya setuju dengan sikap Merchant tentang Keberadaan Abstrak.

Mengenai Keberadaan Dimensi Tinggi , saya pikir itu harus berlaku untuk Eru dan Ainur (dalam asalnya), karena bahasanya menyiratkan "realitas" Eru lebih tinggi daripada Legendarium ("Realitas Primer" vs "Realitas Sekunder" serta bahasa mengatakan bahwa pergerakan Ainur ke alam semesta LOTR adalah "keturunan/keturunan").

Plus kita sudah memiliki Eru sebagai 5-D karena Legendarium menjadi fiksi baginya.
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I just read Tolkien letter 213, it says "guardian angel and God knows the author" where Eru Ilúvatar knows about the author, so it's simple and in essence, the Ainur also got a Higher Dimensional Existence, because they were in the same position as Eru Ilúvatar.

Letter 213

Letter 213 is a letter written by J.R.R. Tolkien and published in The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien.
tolkiengateway.net tolkiengateway.net
 
There's a lot of things. Unfortunately I am in a busy stage of my life, so it'll be a while before I propose any revisions myself.

The currently accepted things will need to be applied.

Higher-Dimensional and Abstract Existence will need some staff approval as well.
 
Yeah, I'm not sure what type of immortality this would be, but while the Ainur are the "blood" of Eä, they don't need it. If someone somehow blew up Eä the Ainur would still exist since spirits are indestructible. I'm guessing they'll just be extremely diminished like how Sauron and Saruman were.

That 213 letter pretty convincing for higher dimensional existence for Eru and the Ainur, I suppose to just be pedantic we could require something that proves Ainur=Angels but Tolkien does compare them in letters 212, don't have the relevant quote atm.


As for other stuff I really want Ossës feat to be reevaluated, one of the best and most direct showings in the lore for Ainu on Arda, there has to be a way to get something from it! Nature says the Island is 180,000 square miles to start things off.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I am fine if this was applied if it wasn't already.
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Yes, me as well.
TheMerchant66 said:
As for other stuff I really want Ossës feat to be reevaluated, one of the best and most direct showings in the lore for Ainu on Arda, there has to be a way to get something from it! Nature says the Island is 180,000 square miles to start things off.
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Please elaborate/explain further.
 
Tyranno223 said:
Is that enough staff support?
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Probably, yes.
Tyranno223 said:
In Nature of Middle-Earth, Tolkien's notes show that the island of Númenor is 180,000 square miles. Ossë was the Maia who raised the island, although I believe this would only be a lifting feat.
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Okay. Would you or somebody else here be willing and able to properly calculate it, or should I ask for help from our calc group members?
 
Sadly we dunno how he did it, I imagine him using water ro raise it from the bottom of the ocean. Iirc the text says it was raised from great depths as well.

I also wanna add it was probably done very fast since the Edain were being transported there.
 
I was thinking something about Melkor during the Ainulindalë that I don't see anyone really discuss is how Melkor countered Erus first 2 themes and made Eru so mad he stopped the Music all together.

To clarify for those who don't know the Ainulindalë aka the Music first started normally till Morgoth began his Discord. Eru then initially countsred the Discord till Morgoth did his own counters as mentioned.

I feel that pretty much proves that, at leasr, Morgoth and Eru + the Ainur all exist on the same dimensionality level. and ofc Morgoth can potentially scale so high to the point one could wank super hard lol. Made an Omnipotent being legitimately mad!
 
The Themes were all performed by members of the Ainur, Eru merely directed them. While Eru was displeased at the discord, he also firmly stated that even Melkor's discord was part of his design. Eru even ends the entire conflict in an instant when he wanted to.

(All following quotes are from the Silmarillion, AINULINDALË).

"In the midst of this strife, whereat the halls of Ilúvatar shook and a tremor ran out into the silences yet unmoved, Ilúvatar arose a third time, and his face was terrible to behold. Then he raised up both his hands, and in one chord, deeper than the Abyss, higher than the Firmament, piercing as the light of the eye of Ilúvatar, the Music ceased. "

That being said, Eru also stated that

"Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor" which we currently have as evidence for them likely scaling to Eru, at least in dimensionality.

Of course, I personally still believe they should fully scale due to being
  1. Referred to as "mighty" by Eru, whereas the entire 4-D structure is but "thought" to him
  2. They resided in the same space/dimension as Eru. With this space being referred to as the "primary reality" compared to LOTR's "secondary reality"
  3. They can genuinely interact with Eru and converse with him, showing comparability in existence (even humanity, in some of the tales were Eru spoke to them, only vaguely perceived his voice, and they're specifically attuned to Eru in a unique way).
  4. The entirety of time and space were utterly beneath them, with their entry into it being seen as a "descent" where they had to restrain themselves to properly enter.
However, I'm undertaking my finals, so I have no time to push new revisions.

(There's also the Imgur thing and accepted revisions to change).

Edit: Actually, it's noted that the "the halls of Ilúvatar shook and a tremor ran out into the silences yet unmoved". As the Halls of Ilúvatar refer to Eru's realm, that means the 5-D realm of Eru was shook by the conflict. That seems to be solid scaling proof.
 
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Tyranno seems to make sense to me.

Also, can somebody provide easy to understand explanations for Medeus please?
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I am kinda lost where the debate went.
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This is just a general revision thread.

The thing Merchant proposed was scaling Melkor (and thus the other Ainur) to Eru directly, making them solidly 5-D.

I disagree, as Eru ended the entire conflict with one note, and due to the fact he is firmly described as being above the entire verse to the extent he is "omnipotent".

However, I believe they should still scale solidly, as they are:

  1. Referred to as "mighty" by Eru, whereas the entire 4-D structure is but "thought" to him
  2. They resided in the same space/dimension as Eru. With this space being referred to as the "primary reality" compared to LOTR's "secondary reality"
  3. They can genuinely interact with Eru and converse with him, showing comparability in existence (even humanity, in some of the tales were Eru spoke to them, only vaguely perceived his voice, and they're specifically attuned to Eru in a unique way).
  4. The entirety of time and space were utterly beneath them, with their entry into it being seen as a "descent" where they had to restrain themselves to properly enter.
  5. It's noted that the "the halls of Ilúvatar shook and a tremor ran out into the silences yet unmoved". As the Halls of Ilúvatar refer to Eru's realm, that means the 5-D realm of Eru was shook by the conflict between Melkor's faction, and the faithful Ainur. That seems to be solid scaling proof.
 
Tyranno223 said:
The Themes were all performed by members of the Ainur, Eru merely directed them. While Eru was displeased at the discord, he also firmly stated that even Melkor's discord was part of his design. Eru even ends the entire conflict in an instant when he wanted to.

(All following quotes are from the Silmarillion, AINULINDALË).

"In the midst of this strife, whereat the halls of Ilúvatar shook and a tremor ran out into the silences yet unmoved, Ilúvatar arose a third time, and his face was terrible to behold. Then he raised up both his hands, and in one chord, deeper than the Abyss, higher than the Firmament, piercing as the light of the eye of Ilúvatar, the Music ceased. "

That being said, Eru also stated that

"Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor" which we currently have as evidence for them likely scaling to Eru, at least in dimensionality.

Of course, I personally still believe they should fully scale due to being
  1. Referred to as "mighty" by Eru, whereas the entire 4-D structure is but "thought" to him
  2. They resided in the same space/dimension as Eru. With this space being referred to as the "primary reality" compared to LOTR's "secondary reality"
  3. They can genuinely interact with Eru and converse with him, showing comparability in existence (even humanity, in some of the tales were Eru spoke to them, only vaguely perceived his voice, and they're specifically attuned to Eru in a unique way).
  4. The entirety of time and space were utterly beneath them, with their entry into it being seen as a "descent" where they had to restrain themselves to properly enter.
However, I'm undertaking my finals, so I have no time to push new revisions.

(There's also the Imgur thing and accepted revisions to change).

Edit: Actually, it's noted that the "the halls of Ilúvatar shook and a tremor ran out into the silences yet unmoved". As the Halls of Ilúvatar refer to Eru's realm, that means the 5-D realm of Eru was shook by the conflict. That seems to be solid scaling proof.
Click to expand...


Yah I kinda worded myself off, I came off as saying Melkor actually physically countered an action from Eru, rather I was more trying to say Eru does acknowledge him + the Ainur since it did make him mad, further backing him seeing them as legitimate beings.

I think the Wiki needs to change the wording about Ainur seeing Eä as a tale, I feel that's a bit too vague to ascertain + Tolkien was referring to the Great Vision, mot Eä itself

As for Ossës feat:


"A land was made for the Edain to dwell in, neither part of Middle-earth nor of Valinor, for it was sundered from either by a wide sea; yet it was nearer to Valinor. It was raised by Ossë out of the depths of the Great Water, and it was established by Aulë and enriched by Yavanna; and the Eldar brought thither flowers and fountains out of Tol Eressëa. That land the Valar called Andor, the Land of Gift; and the Star of Eärendil shone bright in the West as a token that all was made ready, and as a guide over the sea; and Men marvelled to see that silver flame in the paths of the Sun."


The "Great Water" refers to a part of the Ocean from when the Earth was Flat and was the widest Ocean within the Inner seas part of it, reaching all the way to Aman.
 
Thank you very much to both of you for helping out so much with this, Tyranno223 and TheMerchant66.
 
TheMerchant66 said:
Yah I kinda worded myself off, I came off as saying Melkor actually physically countered an action from Eru, rather I was more trying to say Eru does acknowledge him + the Ainur since it did make him mad, further backing him seeing them as legitimate beings.
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That's fair. It's definitely good support, and coupled with the other stuff, we have a stronger case than the last attempt to put them at a solid Low 1-C.

TheMerchant66 said:
I think the Wiki needs to change the wording about Ainur seeing Eä as a tale, I feel that's a bit too vague to ascertain + Tolkien was referring to the Great Vision, mot Eä itself
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Oh? Is there still a line that says that?

If you're referring to this part of the justification - "who views the space-time continuum depicted in The Lord of the Rings as being on par with a work of fiction." That is in reference to Eru viewing/holding the universe of the Legendarium as thought.

TheMerchant66 said:
As for Ossës feat:


"A land was made for the Edain to dwell in, neither part of Middle-earth nor of Valinor, for it was sundered from either by a wide sea; yet it was nearer to Valinor. It was raised by Ossë out of the depths of the Great Water, and it was established by Aulë and enriched by Yavanna; and the Eldar brought thither flowers and fountains out of Tol Eressëa. That land the Valar called Andor, the Land of Gift; and the Star of Eärendil shone bright in the West as a token that all was made ready, and as a guide over the sea; and Men marvelled to see that silver flame in the paths of the Sun."


The "Great Water" refers to a part of the Ocean from when the Earth was Flat and was the widest Ocean within the Inner seas part of it, reaching all the way to Aman.
Click to expand...
Thanks. I'm finishing up my finals, so I can't really look into stuff that isn't already noted down
 
I just wanted to check, but is two staff support enough for the change from a "At least Low 2-C, likely Low 1-C" rating to a solid "Low 1-C" rating, or is further staff input required?
 
I agree with the Ainur being low 1-C, shakong the Timeless Halls is a solid feat + all the other reasons back it up more.

I think that should be taken away or rearranged, maybe say "The Ainur are perceived by Eru as legitimate beings, with Eru transcending Eä to the point it is just a story within his mind. They also can shake the Timeless Halls, a dimension which transcends Space-Time Dimensionality"

It doesn't really matter that much anyways, it reads somewhat clear but I can see there being some confusion but if edits aren't needed that's fine.

I wanma add that the Ainur existed before everything else was made, this could extend to even the Timeless Halls afaik that doesn't contradict.

So in a nutshell: Eru is at least low 1-C, the Ainur during the Ainulindalë are low 1-C, when they descended into Eä during the cosmic ages the Ainu that became a Vala were Universal, the Maia I'm unsure where to rank them during this age.

Once the Valar we know of descended into Arda, would they becone continental? Or still Universal.
 
Wording changes could definitely be worth looking into. The age of each Ainur page should already mention they existed before the universe at least.

The Maiar should just be Low 1-C as well. The Ainur all existed on the same level, they just varied in power.

In Arda, they should still be Tier 3 (There isn't a significant change in power here, at least for the faithful Ainur). An upcoming revision of mine will suggest putting them at either 3-B (with some at most 3-A) or possibly High 3-A (depending on if the universe is accepted at infinite).

The mightiest Maiar downscale from the Valar, so they keep their "at most" part. Further texts in NOME and elsewhere keep coupling the "Greater Maiar/Mayar" with the Valar when talking about their abilities.
 
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I think that what has been accepted here can probably be applied, yes.
 
Finished the imgur pages for the upcoming changes (with an Imgur profile so they don't get auto-deleted).

For infinite and immeasurable speed


For Low 1-C Ainur (Alongside the pre-existing links that proposed scaling to Eru)


For Higher-Dimensional, I believe the old Primary and Secondary reality distinction should suffice. I did add Letter 213 to add another case however.
 
Tyranno223 said:
Thank you. Could Eru Ilúvatar's page please be unlocked? I need to replace his imgur links with new ones. I've remade them with an imgur profile. I also need to give him immeasurable speed by upscaling from the Ainur.
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I unlocked Eru's page. Please tell me here when you are done. 🙏
 
Tyranno223 said:
Finished the imgur pages for the upcoming changes (with an Imgur profile so they don't get auto-deleted).

For infinite and immeasurable speed


For Low 1-C Ainur (Alongside the pre-existing links that proposed scaling to Eru)


For Higher-Dimensional, I believe the old Primary and Secondary reality distinction should suffice. I did add Letter 213 to add another case however.
Click to expand...

Also, thank you very much for helping out. 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
I unlocked Eru's page. Please tell me here when you are done. 🙏
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I've added Higher-Dimensional Existence, changed the links, and added a new line of justification, noting Eru is superior to the combined might of the Ainur because they will be upgraded to the same tier.

For references, I've made multiple alongside one another instead of grouping a bunch of different texts under one reference. Is one or the other more preferable?
 
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