Lord of the Rings revisions

[Antvasima]

It seems fine for now, at least that's my take on it.

Okay. That is good then.

Because this is a general revision thread, new things just come in when people find the time or evidence.

Okay. No problem.

I'm planning on a speed (for their "Prior to entering Eä" key, aka their At least Low 2-C, likely Low 1-C key) and key revision for the Ainur (regarding their "Within the confines of Eä" key, aka within space-time key).

Okay. That also seems fine.

Merchant brought up a potential new calc in his last post.

If somebody posts the related evidence, I can ask for calculation help.

Hagane_no_Saiyajin's Smaug revision still needs to be implemented (from the Smaug calc thread).

Okay. Would you be willing to handle it please?

 

[Tyranno223]

Okay. Would you be willing to handle it please?

Sure I'll work on that when I get time.

 

[Antvasima]

Thanks a lot for helping out.

 

[Dinamic8000]

So, i dunno if i should post this here or there, but i took a look at the movies profiles of the LOTR characters here, here, here, here and here. And in my opinion theses are really, really bad.

The only AP justification is a common calc in Gandalf's fight against Dunir's Bane, no LS classification and the Smaug speed calc is just the same one from the book version (Although we can make a discussion if the world map is the same between canons)

So yeah, IMO theses are up for deletion

Other thing is that part of the book profiles on the verse page just utilize the movie portrayal, would be cool to change it to book interpretations to separate more the verses and avoid confusion





Oh, Shadow of Mordor pages on other hand are very solid stuff, might begin working on a verse page soon

 

[Tyranno223]

So, i dunno if i should post this here or there, but i took a look at the movies profiles of the LOTR characters here, here, here, here and here. And in my opinion theses are really, really bad.

The only AP justification is a common calc in Gandalf's fight against Dunir's Bane, no LS classification and the Smaug speed calc is just the same one from the book version (Although we can make a discussion if the world map is the same between canons)

So yeah, IMO theses are up for deletion

Other thing is that part of the book profiles on the verse page just utilize the movie portrayal, would be cool to change it to book interpretations to separate more the verses and avoid confusion





Oh, Shadow of Mordor pages on other hand are very solid stuff, might begin working on a verse page soon

No real opinion on the movie deletion stuff, but I do agree with changing the book profiles away from the movies.

Shadow of Mordor is cool, would be great to see some stuff on that. I might work on a few Middle Earth Role Playing (MERP) profiles, but that would be after book revisions... that's a while off to say the least.

 

[Antvasima]

So, i dunno if i should post this here or there, but i took a look at the movies profiles of the LOTR characters here, here, here, here and here. And in my opinion theses are really, really bad.

The only AP justification is a common calc in Gandalf's fight against Dunir's Bane, no LS classification and the Smaug speed calc is just the same one from the book version (Although we can make a discussion if the world map is the same between canons)

So yeah, IMO theses are up for deletion

Other thing is that part of the book profiles on the verse page just utilize the movie portrayal, would be cool to change it to book interpretations to separate more the verses and avoid confusion

Oh, Shadow of Mordor pages on other hand are very solid stuff, might begin working on a verse page soon

You should preferably mention all of the pages that should be deleted in the thread with this purpose in our wiki management forum.

 

[Experiment12]

You should preferably mention all of the pages that should be deleted in the thread with this purpose in our wiki management forum.

Hi Antvasima, can you visit my thread, which is called Plot Manipulation Ilúvatar.

 

[Antvasima]

You can link to it here if you wish, but I will go on vacation after a little more than two days.

 

[Experiment12]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/plot-manipulation-for-eru-iluvatar.150475/

 

[Tyranno223]

Morgoth's Ring: Book V. Text XI
Just putting this note first as I am using Morgoth's Ring as my source for speed revisions. As noted earlier in the thread, Morgoth's Ring largely consists of old drafts of the Silmarillion, however, it does contain some of Tolkien's final notes. Text XI is one of these final notes. Christoper Tolkien wrote in the publication

"This concluding text, entitled Aman, is a clear manuscript written with little hesitation or correction. I had regarded it as an independent essay, and in doubt where best to place it had left it to the end; but when this book had been fully completed and prepared for publication..."

Ainur infinite speed support:
We currently have an infinite speed rating for the Ainur from the NOME (with the line showing up in other texts) line "They could go where they willed, that is could be present at once at any point in Eä where they desired to be."

Text XI adds support by adding

"...they could live at any speed of thought or motion which they chose or desired."
and
"They could move backward or forward in thought, and return again so swiftly that to those who were in their presence they did not appear to have moved."

It's just added support.

"Prior to entering Eä" likely Immeasurable speed

"They could move backward or forward in thought, and return again so swiftly that to those who were in their presence they did not appear to have moved. All that was past they could fully perceive; but being now in Time the future they could only perceive or explore in so far as its design was made clear to them in the Music, or as each one of them was specially concerned with this or that part of Eru's design, being His agent or Subcreator."

Tolkien's full look into the speed of the Ainur adds another dimension to their speed. It implies that, prior to their descent into time and reality, the Ainur (and Eru by proxy) could move (and see) into the future without restraint. The specifics of "moved" is important, as it is not just perception, but physical movement as well.

This would of course, only apply to their final key. There is a possibility of them moving back in time for the main Legendarium, but there is a lot of PIS and stuff that arises from making that claim, so I'll investigate that possibility further.

 

[Tyranno223]

Text is here.

Page 369.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that seems uncontroversial to apply.

What do the rest of you think?

@DarkDragonMedeus @TheMerchant66

 

[Experiment12]

Morgoth's Ring: Book V. Text XI
Just putting this note first as I am using Morgoth's Ring as my source for speed revisions. As noted earlier in the thread, Morgoth's Ring largely consists of old drafts of the Silmarillion, however, it does contain some of Tolkien's final notes. Text XI is one of these final notes. Christoper Tolkien wrote in the publication

"This concluding text, entitled Aman, is a clear manuscript written with little hesitation or correction. I had regarded it as an independent essay, and in doubt where best to place it had left it to the end; but when this book had been fully completed and prepared for publication..."

Ainur infinite speed support:
We currently have an infinite speed rating for the Ainur from the NOME (with the line showing up in other texts) line "They could go where they willed, that is could be present at once at any point in Eä where they desired to be."

Text XI adds support by adding

"...they could live at any speed of thought or motion which they chose or desired."
and
"They could move backward or forward in thought, and return again so swiftly that to those who were in their presence they did not appear to have moved."

It's just added support.

"Prior to entering Eä" likely Immeasurable speed

"They could move backward or forward in thought, and return again so swiftly that to those who were in their presence they did not appear to have moved. All that was past they could fully perceive; but being now in Time the future they could only perceive or explore in so far as its design was made clear to them in the Music, or as each one of them was specially concerned with this or that part of Eru's design, being His agent or Subcreator."

Tolkien's full look into the speed of the Ainur adds another dimension to their speed. It implies that, prior to their descent into time and reality, the Ainur (and Eru by proxy) could move (and see) into the future without restraint. The specifics of "moved" is important, as it is not just perception, but physical movement as well.

This would of course, only apply to their final key. There is a possibility of them moving back in time for the main Legendarium, but there is a lot of PIS and stuff that arises from making that claim, so I'll investigate that possibility further.

I seem to agree with Speed Immeasurable, but it's better to make a new key, so it doesn't interfere with the previous key.

 

[Experiment12]

Higher-Dimensional Existence for Ainur. I will be scaling from Eru Ilúvatar. I will provide some evidence below. So I accidentally read Tolkien's article about Ainur, so this could be a reference for me to try.

1> The concept of offspring from One suggests a sort of Pythagorean divisibility of a unity into component parts without disminution of the whole. The Ainur are powers or principalities emanating directly from the godhead and are developed in the text as aspects of his nature.[4]

Ainur said is: "Are powers or principalities emanating directly from the godhead and are developed in the text as aspects of his nature."

By involving the text "without reducing the whole" where Ainur himself is the thought of Eru Ilúvatar, which manifested into a spirit form and changed Eru Ilúvatar's mind, to the new one we call "Ainur". Likewise in the text "as aspect of his nature" It's very clear, that Eru Ilúvatar's strength ≠ Ainur, is only for Higher-Dimensional Existence. Speaking of "aspects", the aspects that Eru Ilúvatar's mind manifested, were the same as Ainur's, because of its "nature".

2> As descendants of his thoughts, at first each only "understood that part of the Ilúvatar mind from which he had come".

This is very clear, because they (Ainur) only "understood the part of Ilúvatar's mind where he came from", so Ilúvatar's thoughts, are still Ilúvatar's thoughts, which (Ainur) are only creations, so this can be scaling, moreover it is reinforced by the text "where did he come from", because it only understands Ilúvatar's thoughts, so they will think (Ainur) that we are creators, and in my opinion this is valid.

Evidence: https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Creation_of_the_Ainur

What is your opinion @Antvasima @DarkDragonMedeus @Tyranno223, Sorry if my English is messy, because I'm not fluent.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Seems fine yeah.

 

[Tyranno223]

I seem to agree with Speed Immeasurable, but it's better to make a new key, so it doesn't interfere with the previous key.

"Prior to entering Eä" is already a key that does not interfere with any other. It's quite literally the Ainur in their origin.

Higher-Dimensional Existence for Ainur. I will be scaling from Eru Ilúvatar. I will provide some evidence below. So I accidentally read Tolkien's article about Ainur, so this could be a reference for me to try.

I suppose? I'm not too sure on how Higher-Dimensional Existence exactly works, but we do consider Eru as 5-D and the Ainur as likely 5-D.

1> The concept of offspring from One suggests a sort of Pythagorean divisibility of a unity into component parts without disminution of the whole. The Ainur are powers or principalities emanating directly from the godhead and are developed in the text as aspects of his nature.[4]

This is from Splintered Light. It's a fine bit of scholarly work, but it's neither a direct writing from J.R.R Tolkien, or a piece of compiled writing/notes from J.R.R overseen by Christopher or approved editors. It should not be usable, but the idea is interesting. Unfortunately I currently lack time to look into it deeper

Ainur said is: "Are powers or principalities emanating directly from the godhead and are developed in the text as aspects of his nature."

By involving the text "without reducing the whole" where Ainur himself is the thought of Eru Ilúvatar, which manifested into a spirit form and changed Eru Ilúvatar's mind, to the new one we call "Ainur". Likewise in the text "as aspect of his nature" It's very clear, that Eru Ilúvatar's strength ≠ Ainur, is only for Higher-Dimensional Existence. Speaking of "aspects", the aspects that Eru Ilúvatar's mind manifested, were the same as Ainur's, because of its "nature".

Well Eru's mind was never changed, all is as according to his design. They are indeed emanations of the Godhead, but that doesn't matter too much, given that such alone was rejected as supporting proof for them scaling to Eru's dimensionality (other bits of evidence had to be used).

2> As descendants of his thoughts, at first each only "understood that part of the Ilúvatar mind from which he had come".

This is very clear, because they (Ainur) only "understood the part of Ilúvatar's mind where he came from", so Ilúvatar's thoughts, are still Ilúvatar's thoughts, which (Ainur) are only creations, so this can be scaling, moreover it is reinforced by the text "where did he come from", because it only understands Ilúvatar's thoughts, so they will think (Ainur) that we are creators, and in my opinion this is valid.

There is little evidence that they remained intwined with Eru's thoughts in that manner after being born from his thoughts. For instance, Nature of Middle-Earth has this from a footnote of the Chapter: "Knowledge of the Valar"

"At this time there was no way for the Incarnate direct to Eru, and though the Eldar knew well that the power of the Valar to counsel or assist them was only delegated, it was through them that they sought for enlightenment or aid from Eru."

Although it is noted that.

"[The Valar] remained in direct contact with Eru, though they, as far as the legends go, usually “addressed” Him through Manwë the Elder King"

But again, that's through Manwë, who is the only one to directly converse to Eru.

Mind you, this is all regarding the Valar (and thus Ainur) following their entry into creation, but even prior to entry (in the Silmarillion), Eru "spoke to them..." and when 'they sang before him, and he was glad...". Essentially meaning that the Ainur were separate enough to be appraised and judged by Eru as seperate things. Heck, he even says to Melkor in the AINULINDALË chapter.

"Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."

Essentially affirming the separation of being, even as the Ainur were born from his thoughts.

Evidence: https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Creation_of_the_Ainur

Wikis alone are poor sources of evidence on their own. It's a good wiki, but it's better to chase up the evidence. Ultra made a good compilation of links in his prep for the Death Battle video between Sauron and the Lich King.

What is your opinion @Antvasima @DarkDragonMedeus @Tyranno223, Sorry if my English is messy, because I'm not fluent.

No worries, it's a bit difficult for me, but it's discernable. Your English is fairly solid.

 

[Experiment12]

"Prior to entering Eä" is already a key that does not interfere with any other. It's quite literally the Ainur in their origin.

I suppose? I'm not too sure on how Higher-Dimensional Existence exactly works, but we do consider Eru as 5-D and the Ainur as likely 5-D.


This is from Splintered Light. It's a fine bit of scholarly work, but it's neither a direct writing from J.R.R Tolkien, or a piece of compiled writing/notes from J.R.R overseen by Christopher or approved editors. It should not be usable, but the idea is interesting. Unfortunately I currently lack time to look into it deeper


Well Eru's mind was never changed, all is as according to his design. They are indeed emanations of the Godhead, but that doesn't matter too much, given that such alone was rejected as supporting proof for them scaling to Eru's dimensionality (other bits of evidence had to be used).


There is little evidence that they remained intwined with Eru's thoughts in that manner after being born from his thoughts. For instance, Nature of Middle-Earth has this from a footnote of the Chapter: "Knowledge of the Valar"

"At this time there was no way for the Incarnate direct to Eru, and though the Eldar knew well that the power of the Valar to counsel or assist them was only delegated, it was through them that they sought for enlightenment or aid from Eru."

Although it is noted that.

"[The Valar] remained in direct contact with Eru, though they, as far as the legends go, usually “addressed” Him through Manwë the Elder King"

But again, that's through Manwë, who is the only one to directly converse to Eru.

Mind you, this is all regarding the Valar (and thus Ainur) following their entry into creation, but even prior to entry (in the Silmarillion), Eru "spoke to them..." and when 'they sang before him, and he was glad...". Essentially meaning that the Ainur were separate enough to be appraised and judged by Eru as seperate things. Heck, he even says to Melkor in the AINULINDALË chapter.

"Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."

Essentially affirming the separation of being, even as the Ainur were born from his thoughts.


Wikis alone are poor sources of evidence on their own. It's a good wiki, but it's better to chase up the evidence. Ultra made a good compilation of links in his prep for the Death Battle video between Sauron and the Lich King.


No worries, it's a bit difficult for me, but it's discernable. Your English is fairly solid.

Oh okay, thanks for responding, sorry if you're busy.

 

[Tyranno223]

Is this fairly uncontroversial to apply? More staff opinions are always welcome.

 

[Experiment12]

Limited Non-existent physiology (Maybe Type 1 and Aspect Type 1). Limited Resistance To Conceptual Manipulation (Unknown Type). Please correct if there are complaints.

Non-existent physiology:
Fëa (Quenya) is the word for "soul, the spirit that inhabits incarnated beings". It says Fëar doesn't need (Hröa) or his words "Astral Body". They don't have an "Astral Body" at all, but they only have a Soul, and even what we know Ainur himself, is Ilúvatar's mind and is manifested into a spirit. And the Ainur, who want to enter Eä, must have a "body" (if I'm not mistaken), so they make their own body, because they don't have "Body Aspect" Even though they made the Body, the original base didn't have a body.

Limited Resistance To Conceptual Manipulation:
Saying "Fëar is indestructible and cannot be dominated by any power within Eä", they can resist this because they cannot be destroyed by the underlying concepts in Eä, moreover they are in direct Eä scope, because indirectly they are like in the opponent's place "A is in the opponent's place, and the opponent is terrible, but A thinks the opponent cannot dominate to make his soul tremble".

Immaterial Being's & Non-physical interaction to Soul

Generally, all Angel/Ainur classes are included in the "Psychic Beings" classification - Why is that?

They are "Primodial Spirits Beings" and exist in the Immaterial Place, is something that proves/supports that he does live as an Immaterial Being, and obviously these (Feats) are different from Incorporeality because Incorporeality requires a body to survive, whereas Ainur doesn't need it, In Feats Immortality Type 1 (later) can already support Feats and this explanation, that they exist as Immaterial Beings. They are also not just one, they exist in relatively large numbers and interact with the interior of the Timeless Hall's itself which is said to be an object that has no physical form.

^

^

^

https://i.gyazo.com/8aacf4e7e1056ef9f9b1e71ec344c957 ^

Reality Creation & Subjective Reality

As explained in several previous Paragraphs, which are related to the Psychic side of the Angel/Ainur group. As we should know, that Ainur was created from Imperishable Flame (Flame here does not have to refer to something that describes Elements, because it has been explained that Imperishable Flame is the realization of something deeper than that, namely the Soul) - created based on by Flame Imperishable, and having the authority to use it, befits the power of the Rhythm being played, they decorate the theme with Flame Imperishable as its basic power [ https://gyazo.com/f209b93001018c85c8a93553a2c09af2 ] - The Rhythm they play is not an ordinary Rhythm, scaling from the base power Iluvatar himself too – Iluvatar created the Universe and its concepts with the Rhythm too, Iluvatar says "Eä" and the Universe is realized from the Divine Thought and the Rhythm he plays [ https://gyazo.com/b2d7d9d3d1161d3e2ad87bb7dd066db1 ] - reported by Valaquenta , according to him Flame Imperishable is able to realize every vision into a real configuration [ ] - The realization of this ability forms a lot of impossibility into a true Being.

That's all from me, if I use the wrong language, please understand, if there are feats that you don't understand, I'm sorry.

@Tyranno223 @DarkDragonMedeus @Antvasima @TheMerchant66. What do you think, regarding the evidence that I showed? Please respond.

 

[Ped2018]

@Tyranno223 @DarkDragonMedeus @Antvasima @TheMerchant66. What do you think, regarding the evidence that I showed? Please respond

Non-staff members can't tag other members

 

[Tyranno223]

What do you think, regarding the evidence that I showed? Please respond.

Experiment12, I am currently putting forth a speed revision already. Could you please wait until this is resolved before pushing a new revision? Regardless, we have discussion thread you can use in the meantime.

Non-existent physiology:
Fëa (Quenya) is the word for "soul, the spirit that inhabits incarnated beings". It says Fëar doesn't need (Hröa) or his words "Astral Body". They don't have an "Astral Body" at all, but they only have a Soul, and even what we know Ainur himself, is Ilúvatar's mind and is manifested into a spirit. And the Ainur, who want to enter Eä, must have a "body" (if I'm not mistaken), so they make their own body, because they don't have "Body Aspect" Even though they made the Body, the original base didn't have a body.

They are spiritual and non-physical beings in their origin, but their fashioned bodies are still physical things (albeit akin to raiment). This does not mean Nonexistent Physiology, as their physical forms do indeed exist, albeit as malleable things.

See Chapter XIV of The Nature of Middle-Earth, in particular, the line.

"The fanar of the Valar were not “phantoms”, but “physical”: that is, they were not “visions” arising to the mind, or implanted there by the will of a superior mind or spirit, and then projected, [fn3] [7] but received through the bodily eyes."

With the index stating

"fanar (and singular fana) Visible ‘raiment’ of the Valar and Maiar. 198, 233, 241–45" aka their physical bodies.

Also Chapter XIII: Spirit, which states

"The Valar and greater Máyar were held to have made for themselves real bodies – ascertainable by Incarnates by all their senses, and occupying space; though since maintained by their true selves indestructible – in the sense that garments may be removed or repaired."

Limited Resistance To Conceptual Manipulation:
Saying "Fëar is indestructible and cannot be dominated by any power within Eä", they can resist this because they cannot be destroyed by the underlying concepts in Eä, moreover they are in direct Eä scope, because indirectly they are like in the opponent's place "A is in the opponent's place, and the opponent is terrible, but A thinks the opponent cannot dominate to make his soul tremble".

Well this is something I wished to cover in a future revision. The soul is indestructible to anyone (including Eru, although the combined evidence points to this being more so because he is the one to maintain them).

However, I am unsure whether this would reach resistance to conceptual manipulation. The AINULINDALË/Song of the Ainur may prove this to a certain extent, as the Ainur were contesting each other in a clash of concepts.

Immaterial Being's & Non-physical interaction to Soul

This is just a given, as they are quite literally immaterial in their normal state/origin. Also, please acquire screenshots and links from the sources themselves, I have already provided a link to several of them.

Reality Creation & Subjective Reality

Well this may apply to Eru, but I am unsure.

Reality warping is already in the profiles of Eru and the Ainur, although I am investigating this for the latter, as I am unsure whether they do much else beyond creating concepts, rather than realities.

While I have responded to this post, please wait until the current revision is completed before introducing further ones.

 

[Tyranno223]

Morgoth's Ring: Book V. Text XI
Just putting this note first as I am using Morgoth's Ring as my source for speed revisions. As noted earlier in the thread, Morgoth's Ring largely consists of old drafts of the Silmarillion, however, it does contain some of Tolkien's final notes. Text XI is one of these final notes. Christoper Tolkien wrote in the publication

"This concluding text, entitled Aman, is a clear manuscript written with little hesitation or correction. I had regarded it as an independent essay, and in doubt where best to place it had left it to the end; but when this book had been fully completed and prepared for publication..."

Ainur infinite speed support:
We currently have an infinite speed rating for the Ainur from the NOME (with the line showing up in other texts) line "They could go where they willed, that is could be present at once at any point in Eä where they desired to be."

Text XI adds support by adding

"...they could live at any speed of thought or motion which they chose or desired."
and
"They could move backward or forward in thought, and return again so swiftly that to those who were in their presence they did not appear to have moved."

It's just added support.

"Prior to entering Eä" likely Immeasurable speed

"They could move backward or forward in thought, and return again so swiftly that to those who were in their presence they did not appear to have moved. All that was past they could fully perceive; but being now in Time the future they could only perceive or explore in so far as its design was made clear to them in the Music, or as each one of them was specially concerned with this or that part of Eru's design, being His agent or Subcreator."

Tolkien's full look into the speed of the Ainur adds another dimension to their speed. It implies that, prior to their descent into time and reality, the Ainur (and Eru by proxy) could move (and see) into the future without restraint. The specifics of "moved" is important, as it is not just perception, but physical movement as well.

This would of course, only apply to their final key. There is a possibility of them moving back in time for the main Legendarium, but there is a lot of PIS and stuff that arises from making that claim, so I'll investigate that possibility further.

Text is here.

Page 369.

Antvasima and DarkDragonMedeus have given their approval, further staff input would be welcome.

 

[Experiment12]

Experiment12, I am currently putting forth a speed revision already. Could you please wait until this is resolved before pushing a new revision? Regardless, we have discussion thread you can use in the meantime.


They are spiritual and non-physical beings in their origin, but their fashioned bodies are still physical things (albeit akin to raiment). This does not mean Nonexistent Physiology, as their physical forms do indeed exist, albeit as malleable things.

See Chapter XIV of The Nature of Middle-Earth, in particular, the line.

"The fanar of the Valar were not “phantoms”, but “physical”: that is, they were not “visions” arising to the mind, or implanted there by the will of a superior mind or spirit, and then projected, [fn3] [7] but received through the bodily eyes."

With the index stating

"fanar (and singular fana) Visible ‘raiment’ of the Valar and Maiar. 198, 233, 241–45" aka their physical bodies.

Also Chapter XIII: Spirit, which states

"The Valar and greater Máyar were held to have made for themselves real bodies – ascertainable by Incarnates by all their senses, and occupying space; though since maintained by their true selves indestructible – in the sense that garments may be removed or repaired."

Well this is something I wished to cover in a future revision. The soul is indestructible to anyone (including Eru, although the combined evidence points to this being more so because he is the one to maintain them).

However, I am unsure whether this would reach resistance to conceptual manipulation. The AINULINDALË/Song of the Ainur may prove this to a certain extent, as the Ainur were contesting each other in a clash of concepts.

This is just a given, as they are quite literally immaterial in their normal state/origin. Also, please acquire screenshots and links from the sources themselves, I have already provided a link to several of them.


Well this may apply to Eru, but I am unsure.

Reality warping is already in the profiles of Eru and the Ainur, although I am investigating this for the latter, as I am unsure whether they do much else beyond creating concepts, rather than realities.

While I have responded to this post, please wait until the current revision is completed before introducing further ones.

Okay, I'm very sorry Tyranno, for disturbing .

 

[Experiment12]

Antvasima and DarkDragonMedeus have given their approval, further staff input would be welcome.

Hi Tyranno, can you provide proof that Eru Ilúvatar has conceptual manipulation type 1, because I want to use these feats to conduct a private debate character.

 

[Tyranno223]

Hi Tyranno, can you provide proof that Eru Ilúvatar has conceptual manipulation type 1, because I want to use these feats to conduct a private debate character.

These sorts of messages should be sent to my profile. You can quite literally look at the first chapter of the Silmarillion. The Song of the Ainur gave birth to concepts.

 

[Tyranno223]

Antvasima and DarkDragonMedeus have given their approval, further staff input would be welcome.

Bump.

 

[Antvasima]

What @Tyranno223 has suggested here can probably be applied.

 

[Tyranno223]

Thank you. Is the change uncontroversial enough to just add then?

 

[Ped2018]

Thank you. Is the change uncontroversial enough to just add then?

Yes, he just said so

 

[Antvasima]

I think so, yes.

 

[Experiment12]

Sorry for bothering you.

Beyond-Dimensional Existence (?)

"That should mean that he was put outside Time and Space, outside Eä altogether;" said Morgoth was thrown into the Void and is said to be outside of time and space, outside Eä at all. We can take this benchmark with The Timeless Halls, as the proof above says "outside Eä" which literally means those who live in the timeless halls are already in a different hierarchy. What we also know is that space and time are fundamental concepts, while those in the timeless halls think they are just fiction, because they have different hierarchies and everything has transcended.

Abstract Existence Type 1.

The Valar it is a direct representation of the concepts in the world. They are the direct power of the world. So representations, they die, then the aspects they represent also die. That straight forward concept. And they were also present before the world was formed. There seems to be multiple interpretations. They did rule over parts of Ea. But the narrator also emphasized "but this condition illuvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should then be contained and bounded in the world, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are it's life and it is theirs"

In this context, the character's strength lies within the world, and they cannot transcend that boundary. They are tied to the world, and conversely, the world is also tied to their existence. This makes them the "life" of the world, and conversely, the world also becomes life for them.

After that, it was specified again that these Valars represented a fundamental part of the universe and the place they lived in.




@Tyranno223 @Antvasima @DarkDragonMedeus What is your opinion?

 

[Antvasima]

I think that it is best if @TheMerchant66 , @Tyranno223 , and @Moonshadow137 evaluate it.

 

[TheMerchant66]

Higher-Dimensional Existence for Ainur. I will be scaling from Eru Ilúvatar. I will provide some evidence below. So I accidentally read Tolkien's article about Ainur, so this could be a reference for me to try.

1> The concept of offspring from One suggests a sort of Pythagorean divisibility of a unity into component parts without disminution of the whole. The Ainur are powers or principalities emanating directly from the godhead and are developed in the text as aspects of his nature.[4]

Ainur said is: "Are powers or principalities emanating directly from the godhead and are developed in the text as aspects of his nature."

By involving the text "without reducing the whole" where Ainur himself is the thought of Eru Ilúvatar, which manifested into a spirit form and changed Eru Ilúvatar's mind, to the new one we call "Ainur". Likewise in the text "as aspect of his nature" It's very clear, that Eru Ilúvatar's strength ≠ Ainur, is only for Higher-Dimensional Existence. Speaking of "aspects", the aspects that Eru Ilúvatar's mind manifested, were the same as Ainur's, because of its "nature".

2> As descendants of his thoughts, at first each only "understood that part of the Ilúvatar mind from which he had come".

This is very clear, because they (Ainur) only "understood the part of Ilúvatar's mind where he came from", so Ilúvatar's thoughts, are still Ilúvatar's thoughts, which (Ainur) are only creations, so this can be scaling, moreover it is reinforced by the text "where did he come from", because it only understands Ilúvatar's thoughts, so they will think (Ainur) that we are creators, and in my opinion this is valid.

Evidence: https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Creation_of_the_Ainur

What is your opinion @Antvasima @DarkDragonMedeus @Tyranno223, Sorry if my English is messy, because I'm not fluent.

As Tyrano mentioned this is from a scholarly work, not from Tolkien himself. I also thought this was from Tolkien but was mistaken, I referenced but did not cite this a page or 2 back so understandable if one thinks is is from a Tolkien source.


In general, I'm unsure about Ainur being higher dimensional. I was reading the letters not too long ago and I found this Letter 212


The Ainur took part in the making of the world as ‘sub-creators’: in various degrees, after this fashion. They interpreted according to their powers, and completed in detail, the Design propounded to them by the One. This was propounded first in musical or abstract form, and then in an ‘historical vision’. In the first interpretation, the vast Music of the Ainur, Melkor introduced alterations, not interpretations of the mind of the One, and great discord arose. The One then presented this ‘Music’, including the apparent discords, as a visible ‘history’. At this stage it had still only a validity, to which the validity of a ‘story’ among ourselves may be compared: it ‘exists’ in the mind of the teller, and derivatively in the minds of hearers, but not on the same plane as teller or hearers. When the One (the Teller) said “Let it Be,” then the Tale became History, on the same plane as the hearers; and these could, if they desired, enter into it.


The Ainur were "on the same plane" as The Universe when it came into existence. As mentioned before, The "viewing Eä as a fictional work" is when the Ainur made the Great Vision, which was, for lack of a better word, a film for for the Ainur. When it was finished Eru brought it into existence and letter 212 makes it pretty clear that Eä "existed" just as much as the Ainur did.

Sorry for bothering you.

Beyond-Dimensional Existence (?)

"That should mean that he was put outside Time and Space, outside Eä altogether;" said Morgoth was thrown into the Void and is said to be outside of time and space, outside Eä at all. We can take this benchmark with The Timeless Halls, as the proof above says "outside Eä" which literally means those who live in the timeless halls are already in a different hierarchy. What we also know is that space and time are fundamental concepts, while those in the timeless halls think they are just fiction, because they have different hierarchies and everything has transcended.

Abstract Existence Type 1.

The Valar it is a direct representation of the concepts in the world. They are the direct power of the world. So representations, they die, then the aspects they represent also die. That straight forward concept. And they were also present before the world was formed. There seems to be multiple interpretations. They did rule over parts of Ea. But the narrator also emphasized "but this condition illuvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should then be contained and bounded in the world, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are it's life and it is theirs"

In this context, the character's strength lies within the world, and they cannot transcend that boundary. They are tied to the world, and conversely, the world is also tied to their existence. This makes them the "life" of the world, and conversely, the world also becomes life for them.

After that, it was specified again that these Valars represented a fundamental part of the universe and the place they lived in.




@Tyranno223 @Antvasima @DarkDragonMedeus What is your opinion?

Yeah, I agree that the Ainur are essentially abstract beings once they're in Eä. They're said to be the blood of the world and nature of Middle-Earth has a similar statement that when they landed on Arda essentially "fused" with it as well.

If Ulmo (Vala of water) somehow disappeared from Eä, water in general would disappear. Ulmo is the best representative of this in general, he is literally all the water on Arda and potentially Eä.

 

[Experiment12]

As Tyrano mentioned this is from a scholarly work, not from Tolkien himself. I also thought this was from Tolkien but was mistaken, I referenced but did not cite this a page or 2 back so understandable if one thinks is is from a Tolkien source.


In general, I'm unsure about Ainur being higher dimensional. I was reading the letters not too long ago and I found this Letter 212


The Ainur took part in the making of the world as ‘sub-creators’: in various degrees, after this fashion. They interpreted according to their powers, and completed in detail, the Design propounded to them by the One. This was propounded first in musical or abstract form, and then in an ‘historical vision’. In the first interpretation, the vast Music of the Ainur, Melkor introduced alterations, not interpretations of the mind of the One, and great discord arose. The One then presented this ‘Music’, including the apparent discords, as a visible ‘history’. At this stage it had still only a validity, to which the validity of a ‘story’ among ourselves may be compared: it ‘exists’ in the mind of the teller, and derivatively in the minds of hearers, but not on the same plane as teller or hearers. When the One (the Teller) said “Let it Be,” then the Tale became History, on the same plane as the hearers; and these could, if they desired, enter into it.


The Ainur were "on the same plane" as The Universe when it came into existence. As mentioned before, The "viewing Eä as a fictional work" is when the Ainur made the Great Vision, which was, for lack of a better word, a film for for the Ainur. When it was finished Eru brought it into existence and letter 212 makes it pretty clear that Eä "existed" just as much as the Ainur did.




Yeah, I agree that the Ainur are essentially abstract beings once they're in Eä. They're said to be the blood of the world and nature of Middle-Earth has a similar statement that when they landed on Arda essentially "fused" with it as well.

If Ulmo (Vala of water) somehow disappeared from Eä, water in general would disappear. Ulmo is the best representative of this in general, he is literally all the water on Arda and potentially Eä.

Yes, we need staff feedback.

 

[Tyranno223]

Regarding Higher-Dimensional Existence, if it does exist, it would only apply to Eru and the Ainur in their origin.

Letter 200 does seem to somewhat agree with the notion, stating

"I note your remarks about Sauron. He was always de-bodied when vanquished. The theory, if one can dignify the modes of the story with such a term, is that he was a spirit, a minor one but still an 'angelic' spirit. According to the mythology of these things that means that, though of course a creature, he belonged to the race of intelligent beings that were made before the physical world, and were permitted to assist in their measure in the making of it. Those who became most involved in this work of An, as it was in the first instance, became so engrossed with it, that when the Creator made it real (that is, gave it the secondary reality, subordinate to his own, which we call primary reality, and so in that hierarchy on the same plane with themselves) they desired to enter into it, from the beginning of its 'realization'."

The realm Eru exists in is the "primary reality" with the Legendarium being a "secondary reality", which the Ainur descend into.

Yeah, I agree that the Ainur are essentially abstract beings once they're in Eä. They're said to be the blood of the world and nature of Middle-Earth has a similar statement that when they landed on Arda essentially "fused" with it as well.

If Ulmo (Vala of water) somehow disappeared from Eä, water in general would disappear. Ulmo is the best representative of this in general, he is literally all the water on Arda and potentially Eä.

I pretty much agree with this view, although I lack the time to go verify myself.

 

[Experiment12]

As Tyrano mentioned this is from a scholarly work, not from Tolkien himself. I also thought this was from Tolkien but was mistaken, I referenced but did not cite this a page or 2 back so understandable if one thinks is is from a Tolkien source.


In general, I'm unsure about Ainur being higher dimensional. I was reading the letters not too long ago and I found this Letter 212


The Ainur took part in the making of the world as ‘sub-creators’: in various degrees, after this fashion. They interpreted according to their powers, and completed in detail, the Design propounded to them by the One. This was propounded first in musical or abstract form, and then in an ‘historical vision’. In the first interpretation, the vast Music of the Ainur, Melkor introduced alterations, not interpretations of the mind of the One, and great discord arose. The One then presented this ‘Music’, including the apparent discords, as a visible ‘history’. At this stage it had still only a validity, to which the validity of a ‘story’ among ourselves may be compared: it ‘exists’ in the mind of the teller, and derivatively in the minds of hearers, but not on the same plane as teller or hearers. When the One (the Teller) said “Let it Be,” then the Tale became History, on the same plane as the hearers; and these could, if they desired, enter into it.


The Ainur were "on the same plane" as The Universe when it came into existence. As mentioned before, The "viewing Eä as a fictional work" is when the Ainur made the Great Vision, which was, for lack of a better word, a film for for the Ainur. When it was finished Eru brought it into existence and letter 212 makes it pretty clear that Eä "existed" just as much as the Ainur did.




Yeah, I agree that the Ainur are essentially abstract beings once they're in Eä. They're said to be the blood of the world and nature of Middle-Earth has a similar statement that when they landed on Arda essentially "fused" with it as well.

If Ulmo (Vala of water) somehow disappeared from Eä, water in general would disappear. Ulmo is the best representative of this in general, he is literally all the water on Arda and potentially Eä.

Btw if it's like that then you will get Immortality Type 8, because the concepts of the world are bound to each other, The Valar is bound to the world, so is the world, bound to the Valar.

 

[Tyranno223]

The immortality of the Ainur is intrinsic, they are bound to Eä for the duration, but they will not die with it.

The descriptions make it very clear that the souls are (in verse) indestructible beyond question (minus possible exceptions, but stuff like Dagor Dagorath was abandoned, minus allusions).

 

[Experiment12]

Keabadian Ainur bersifat intrinsik, mereka terikat pada Eä selama itu, tetapi mereka tidak akan mati bersamanya.

Deskripsi membuatnya sangat jelas bahwa jiwa (dalam ayat) tidak dapat dihancurkan tanpa pertanyaan (minus kemungkinan pengecualian, tetapi hal-hal seperti Dagor Dagorath ditinggalkan, dikurangi kiasan).

But it looks like it could be Limited

 

[Tyranno223]

No, it quite simply isn't. They will exist beyond the world, they are attached to it while it exists, no more no less.

The type of immortality you propose (from my understanding) implies their immortality is dependent on the world's existence, which is simply not true.

 

[Antvasima]

@Tyranno223 @TheMerchant66

So what should currently be done here?