Lord of the Rings general revision thread (continued)

[Tyranno223]

Inb4 5-C Boromir for trying to help Gandalf fight the Balrog

Would be wild lol.

But yeah, he has a massive anti-feat from the whole cave troll bit.

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

Would be wild lol.

But yeah, he has a massive anti-feat from the whole cave troll bit.

Yep that was definitely a joke

 

[Tyranno223]

Yep that was definitely a joke

I know, I'm just clarifying in case we accidentally start up the orc and uruk anti-feat part of the debate again (that was a doozy).

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

I know, I'm just clarifying in case we accidentally start up the orc and uruk anti-feat part of the debate again (that was a doozy).

You know, I think I'm going to start a campaign so we can all recognize Farmer Maggot's dogs as 5-C for intimidating the Nazgûl. And once that's undoubtedly accepted I'll upgrade Treebeard to 4-A for having comparable stats in Magic: the Gathering to the Eldrazi Titans

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Really? I assumed the people who started the revision would at least have the right to have some sway. That's disillusioning.

That being said, three knowledgeable users disagreeing and none agreeing honestly should see some consideration.

I'm knowledgeable enough as far as I'm concerned. Read the damn thing twice. Armor also seems knowledgeable.

 

[TheMerchant66]

I think with LOTR scaling we have to keep in mind weapons are very powerful in this universe. Aragorn is wielding a sword that can kill a Maia. As for Aragorn himself, he has hints of Maia heritage himself, it's probably why the Nazgûl can't affect Aragorn with their fear aura and why he held off against the Nazgûl.

Scaling in LOTR will always not be very clean since weaker people can beat stronger ones.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

There are many verses like that, yeah. I don't feel that gives a pass to this, where I consider the actual scaling justifications for Aragorn to be fairly weak.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Lord of the Rings does have very outlandish scaling that tends to be very Devolution heavy (The older a generation, the stronger it is typically speaking) And while I don't doubt Anduril being strong enough to cut off Sauron's hand, the part I question is where does the Tier 7 scaling start? He does seem to be considered "Stronger than the Witch King" but the more skeptical part is that Tier 7 stuff comes from downscaling from Balrog?

More importantly, there were a few points brought up about Aragorn using fire to fend of Nazgul which is what the Nazgul feat. And Nazgul being afraid of Aragorn could be similar to how even the likes of Superman fears Batman due to being "Unpredictable" or could surprise him with Kryptonite. But Tyranno also brought up how the books mention the Nazgul overcoming their fears. I know the Tier 7 to 6 stuff starts with Balrog, and I will note I do not particularly like it when various characters get their tiers via multiple steps of downscaling. But it can still happen so as long as the reasons make sense.

But looking at the profiles, 5 out of 9 of them are consistently a threat to Gandalf the White, who is in turn much stronger than Gandalf the Grey, who solo'd a Balrog. And Gandalf only doubted that Aragorn nor Glorfindel was unable to take on all nine of them; which implied Aragorn would at least be able to take on one or two of them. And there was a statement about Aragorn being stronger than Witch King, who is the strongest of the Nazgul brought up above.

 

[Armorchompy]

It's quite literally the only reason Tolkien gives us as to why the Witch-King would be afraid from his own POV. Again, fire is not mentioned from his own POV

Ok, and? I've ******* explained why that's the only reasonable deduction, counter that reasoning instead of going back to "but the pov tho"

I'm not denying fire was important! I'm saying it wasn't the sole reason! If a random Dunedain used fire against a Nazgul, it would be ineffective. Since Aragorn had the necessary might and speed, he was able to win.

Fire may be what enabled him to harm or at least drive them off, but he needs to be strong enough to do so!

How? It's what they're scared of, why does physical strength play a role into this if we know that he couldn't hurt them! You're claiming that Aragorn's strength mattered while we have significant evidence to the contrary, and you aren't providing any reason as to how it could have! The only ******* logic is "well other people tried and failed so clearly strength was the dividing factor!" And that's a completely arbitrary assumption that I'm no longer going to entertain.

implied Aragorn would at least be able to take on one or two of them. And there was a statement about Aragorn being stronger than Witch King, who is the strongest of the Nazgul brought up above.

I've literally been arguing against the validity of that for like 30 posts.

 

[Armorchompy]

For the record, I have also not conceded regarding the "Tolkien basically outright said that the Nazgul can't exercise their full power against Aragorn because he doesn't fear them at all" argument, literally the only point against it that's been made is that it doesn't fit in the greater canon, which doesn't really matter.

 

[Tyranno223]

Ok, and? I've ******* explained why that's the only reasonable deduction, counter that reasoning instead of going back to "but the pov tho"

Okay, let me organise my exact reasoning below

How? It's what they're scared of, why does physical strength play a role into this if we know that he couldn't hurt them! You're claiming that Aragorn's strength mattered while we have significant evidence to the contrary, and you aren't providing any reason as to how it could have! The only ******* logic is "well other people tried and failed so clearly strength was the dividing factor!" And that's a completely arbitrary assumption that I'm no longer going to entertain.

Okay, let's break it down

The Nazgul were able to overcome an entire group of Dunedain rangers, who must have been armed with torches since it was night (or at the very least, they would have been able to procure torches, since Aragorn, who is comparable in skills as a ranger to his own peers, was able to make a fire in a matter of moments)

The Nazgul are also able to overcome their weaknesses frequently, crossing rivers (even magical ones), which allows us to assume that the Dunedain were simply too weak to capitalise on it. We also know Gandalf is unable to capitalise on this particular weakness despite being stronger than them as individuals.

Now, what does this show? It shows that the weakness of the Nazgul is not so immense that vastly inferior beings, or even comparable beings, can easily overcome them even when wielding it (with Gandalf's chief magics being related to fire or lightning).

So, Aragorn was able to fend off 5 Nazgul, with the Witch-King feeling the need to regroup as the collective Nine

Thus, quite plainly, Aragorn must be comparable to them, otherwise he would end up like his fellow Dunedain, or be driven off like Gandalf was when he was faced with 6 or more Nazgul.

Thus, the Witch-King's POV focus on Aragorn simply as a great power, and not his usage of fire makes sense! Sure he had fire, but he also had the might necessary to capitalise on it! If he was too weak, he would have simply been overpowered!

 

[Tyranno223]

I'm knowledgeable enough as far as I'm concerned. Read the damn thing twice. Armor also seems knowledgeable.

I'm still quite put off by the fact you both entered with several major inaccuracies to the books, but fair enough. I'm admittedly a bit of snob in that regard.

 

[Armorchompy]

The Nazgul were able to overcome an entire group of Dunedain rangers, who must have been armed with torches since it was night (or at the very least, they would have been able to procure torches, since Aragorn, who is comparable in skills as a ranger to his own peers, was able to make a fire in a matter of moments)

The Nazgul are also able to overcome their weaknesses frequently, crossing rivers (even magical ones), which allows us to assume that the Dunedain were simply too weak to capitalise on it. We also know Gandalf is unable to capitalise on this particular weakness despite being stronger than them as individuals.

Now, what does this show? It shows that the weakness of the Nazgul is not so immense that vastly inferior beings, or even comparable beings, can easily overcome them even when wielding it (with Gandalf's chief magics being related to fire or lightning).

So, Aragorn was able to fend off 5 Nazgul, with the Witch-King feeling the need to regroup as the collective Nine

Thus, quite plainly, Aragorn must be comparable to them, otherwise he would end up like his fellow Dunedain, or be driven off like Gandalf was when he was faced with 6 or more Nazgul.

Thus, the Witch-King's POV focus on Aragorn simply as a great power, and not his usage of fire makes sense! Sure he had fire, but he also had the might necessary to capitalise on it! If he was too weak, he would have simply been overpowered!

You fail to explain any actual way that he could have capitalized on it in any way, given that we know for a fact that he couldn't hurt them with weapons. Your argument, that is based on assumptions, I will remind you, completely falls apart there, because you cannot provide an actual explanation as to how he could have done that.

 

[Armorchompy]

Regardless, it's only really come down to the point of whether Armor and I can agree on the Witch-King. Everything else has been resolved more or less.

It hasn't been "resolved", it's just fallen by the wayside. Aragorn being considered to be completely unable to threaten the Balrog at all is still an anti-feat, though admittedly explanations do lessen its worth somewhat they don't negate it. The Nazgul being weakened by courage according to Tolkien is still a valid thing to bring up pertaining the Aragorn fight, even if it doesn't fit in other scenes.

 

[Tyranno223]

You fail to explain any actual way that he could have capitalized on it in any way,

Fire, they aren't incorporeal afterall

Although after rereading some stuff, I'm beginning to believe that the Nazgul aren't actually immune to conventional weaponry. Sure Merry's blade broke on striking the Witch-King, but that blade was specifically made to undo the spell around the Nazgul

Moreover, the Witch-King is unique even for a Nazgul, and during the RotK he had been massively amped by Sauron. But this is an aside for now.

given that we know for a fact that he couldn't hurt them with weapons. Your argument, that is based on assumptions, I will remind you, completely falls apart there, because you cannot provide an actual explanation as to how he could have done that.

He used fire (as we both agreed). Fire is what enables him to drive them off, yes. But at the same time, he needs to be strong enough to capitalise on it!

• How does Aragorn harm the Nazgul
  • Fire
• Is fire alone enough?
  • No, both the Dunedain and Gandalf prove this
• Conclusion?
  • He used fire to harm them, and was strong enough to capitalise on it

What is your explanation then? It cannot be fire alone as otherwise the Dunedain and Gandalf would have easily driven them off (and Saruman would have no fear of them).

It cannot be Frodo's (seemingly bizarre) nature alone, as the Witch-King had already neutralised him.

Offer an alternative that is viable, as it literally cannot be fire alone.

It hasn't been "resolved", it's just fallen by the wayside. Aragorn being considered to be completely unable to threaten the Balrog at all is still an anti-feat, though admittedly explanations do lessen its worth somewhat they don't negate it.

The Balrog would likely just burn him to death by being in his mere presence, not to mention that Aragorn at minimum must scale to the Nazgul in speed. At that point, he would have Anduril, which with his speed means he can one-shot the Balrog.

The statistic argument cannot work in a scenario where Aragorn's statistics are already enough to kill the Balrog in your scenario.

The more clear answer would be that the Balrog's abilities would simply be enough to kill Aragorn. Something Gandalf cannot afford. And yes, abilities need to be changed, but beyond heat manipulation, there will be other stuff like concept manipulation, matter manipulation, etc.

• Fire spirits in LotR burn people who merely enter their vicinity
  • See Arien, or even Gandalf's battle with the Balrog
• Even Gandalf was burned by the Balrog's fire, and he was capable of holding his own fire in the Hobbit
• Gandalf has superior power and feats of heat resistance
• Aragorn would be burned in moments

The Nazgul being weakened by courage according to Tolkien is still a valid thing to bring up pertaining the Aragorn fight, even if it doesn't fit in other scenes.

This makes no sense to use, as neither Gandalf nor Glorfindel fear the Nazgul, but are endangered by them. It's utterly contradictory. If we begin to use contradictory notes, we get High 3-A Galadriel and thus High 3-A Gandalf the Grey

And no, Eowyn isn't a sufficient counter. She was stomped until Merry stabbed the Witch-King with an "anti-Nazgul" dagger in a surprise attack.

And don't bring up intent again. Intent is fine as part of a supportive argument, but you previously posited it as a major point in and of itself. Intent on its own has no weight, especially on this wiki.

 

[Tyranno223]

Aragorn is also described as this

"But those who saw the things that were done in that time, deeds of valour and wonder, have elsewhere told the tale of the War of the Ring, and how it ended both in victory unlooked for and in sorrow long foreseen. Here let it be said that in those days the Heir of Isildur arose in the North, and he took the shards of the sword of Elendil, and in Imladris they were reforged; and he went then to war, a great captain of Men. He was Aragorn son of Arathorn, the nine and thirtieth heir in the right line from Isildur, and yet more like to Elendil than any before him."

In the Silmarillion. Elendil helped kill/mortally wound Sauron in the LA during an extended melee. There are other descriptions of him as the "last of the Numenoreans" etc. This is more of a supportive line than anything, but Tolkien repeatedly hammers Aragorn's exceptionalism into his reader's heads. There's of course the mention of his Ainur and Eldar blood within him.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Wasn't it explained in the books that the only reason Witch King died was because Merry's sword that was magically enhanced by Tom Bombadil depowered him thus leaving him vulnerable for Eowyn to finish him?

 

[TheMerchant66]

What makes the Nazgûl dangerous is a combination of things, not just raw power.

 

[Armorchompy]

Fire, they aren't incorporeal afterall

Although after rereading some stuff, I'm beginning to believe that the Nazgul aren't actually immune to conventional weaponry. Sure Merry's blade broke on striking the Witch-King, but that blade was specifically made to undo the spell around the Nazgul

It doesn't really matter if they are or aren't, Aragorn thinks they're impossible to harm with weapons, which means that he couldn't hurt them.

Moreover, the Witch-King is unique even for a Nazgul, and during the RotK he had been massively amped by Sauron. But this is an aside for now.


He used fire (as we both agreed). Fire is what enables him to drive them off, yes. But at the same time, he needs to be strong enough to capitalise on it!

• How does Aragorn harm the Nazgul
  • Fire
• Is fire alone enough?
  • No, both the Dunedain and Gandalf prove this
• Conclusion?
  • He used fire to harm them, and was strong enough to capitalise on it

HE CAPITALIZED ON IT HOW??? Make an actual ******* argument! Did he punch them with the fire? Did he hit them with the sticks really hard? Did he flex so hard that they were intimidated and walked off???? HOW DOES "POWER" PLAY ANY ROLE IN THIS EQUATION WHEN WE KNOW FOR SURE THAT HE COULDN'T HARM THEM??????

What is your explanation then? It cannot be fire alone as otherwise the Dunedain and Gandalf would have easily driven them off (and Saruman would have no fear of them).

I think it genuinely just is fire alone, though. Tolkien isn't a battleboarder, he doesn't write every fight with perfect consistency. We know Aragorn had access to it, we know it's something you can exploit to drive them off, the rest is off-screen. Maybe he just used it really cleverly, maybe they were already still nervous because of Frodo and decided to not push their luck and leave, maybe Gandalf could have beaten them and he just chose to retreat because it'd be very dangerous, while Aragorn had absolutely no choice., I don't need to make up a headcanon as long as there's enough leeway to make some assumption.

Offer an alternative that is viable, as it literally cannot be fire alone.

No it definitely can be fire alone, what it can't be is anything ******* else, because we know for sure that he didn't actually hurt them in any way.

The Balrog would likely just burn him to death by being in his mere presence, not to mention that Aragorn at minimum must scale to the Nazgul in speed. At that point, he would have Anduril, which with his speed means he can one-shot the Balrog.

No he mustn't. The Nazgul barely ever use their speed anyways, we see them from POV of completely normal people several times and they're almost always moving very slowly.

This makes no sense to use, as neither Gandalf nor Glorfindel fear the Nazgul, but are endangered by them. It's utterly contradictory. If we begin to use contradictory notes, we get High 3-A Galadriel and thus High 3-A Gandalf the Grey And don't bring up intent again. Intent is fine as part of a supportive argument, but you previously posited it as a major point in and of itself. Intent on its own has no weight, especially on this wiki.

"even if it doesn't fit in other scenes"

You are still ignoring the actual argument here. It's not "intent", it's literally just Word of God stating that Aragorn could beat the Nazgul because he could exploit a weakness of theirs. It doesn't matter that it's not consistent, it's clearly WHY Aragorn won that fight in Tolkien's mind.

(though Gandalf clearly feared them a bit given that he ******* ran away)

"But those who saw the things that were done in that time, deeds of valour and wonder, have elsewhere told the tale of the War of the Ring, and how it ended both in victory unlooked for and in sorrow long foreseen. Here let it be said that in those days the Heir of Isildur arose in the North, and he took the shards of the sword of Elendil, and in Imladris they were reforged; and he went then to war, a great captain of Men. He was Aragorn son of Arathorn, the nine and thirtieth heir in the right line from Isildur, and yet more like to Elendil than any before him."

This literally means nothing. It's just an indication of virtue and wisdom.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

I really feel like Armorchompy is making more sense here, this is way to vague of a feat to scale Aragon to Nazgul because he somehow protected Frodo and the Crew without context. Gandalf not being confident in fighting them together and thus Aragon scaring them with fire means he scales?. Bringing up that Gandalf wasn't confident fighting 6 Nazgul is basically irrelevant here.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Armor makes sense

 

[Hellbeast]

Again I think my option is the best way to move forward. Furthermore, could we give the Nazgul an "at most" rating to display their status as heavily downscaling?

the Witch King would obviously get an outright rating for scaling directly to the White Wizard

 

[Tyranno223]

I'll probably need to concede here as I can't really keep up with the argument due to my limited time.

Still rather frustrated since the Witch-King outright calls Aragorn a great power, but I lack the time to keep this up. I might come back to this in a future revision.

That being said, 9-B is based on a movie feat, so Aragorn would need to be "unknown" for now. If later calcs come by, he'd upscale from the likes of Elladan, Legolas, or Boromir.

Again I think my option is the best way to move forward. Furthermore, could we give the Nazgul an "at most" rating to display their status as heavily downscaling?

That seems reasonable I suppose. It takes 5 plus the Witch-King to endanger Gandalf to the point of feeling outmatched

the Witch King would obviously get an outright rating for scaling directly to the White Wizard

Not really, Saruman was specifically endangered as all 9 Nazgul were present. The Unfinished Tales were specific in saying that it would take the combined might of all 9 Nazgul to overcome Isengard, which was just Saruman and the fortress (with maybe some dunlendings and orcs, but they're non factors)

Of course, we don't know how a 1v1 would go without external circumstances, but even with it being night, the Witch-King needed 5 other Nazgul to outmatch Gandalf the Grey. He'd just upscale from an individual Nazgul and be "at most" as well.

 

[Tyranno223]

No he mustn't. The Nazgul barely ever use their speed anyways, we see them from POV of completely normal people several times and they're almost always moving very slowly.

While I'm dropping the tier argument, this is a movement speed thing. We don't get many descriptions of their combat speed with comparable foes, and Aragorn was fending off 5 at once. It would be ridiculous to think they wouldn't be somewhat comparable.

Sure we don't have exact descriptions, but I find it hard to imagine that they would be using their slow intimidation speeds in a fight against an entity of some power. Especially in a panicked state.

I think it genuinely just is fire alone, though. Tolkien isn't a battleboarder, he doesn't write every fight with perfect consistency.

Yes, but this is true of 99% of the wiki.

We know Aragorn had access to it, we know it's something you can exploit to drive them off, the rest is off-screen. Maybe he just used it really cleverly, maybe they were already still nervous because of Frodo and decided to not push their luck and leave, maybe Gandalf could have beaten them and he just chose to retreat because it'd be very dangerous, while Aragorn had absolutely no choice., I don't need to make up a headcanon as long as there's enough leeway to make some assumption.

Honestly, after rereading some of the material, I actually agree with this point. Not the part of fire alone, as otherwise Gandalf would have won with ease (he's one of the most prolific users of fire based "magic" in the book, but the other stuff.

"even if it doesn't fit in other scenes"

You are still ignoring the actual argument here. It's not "intent", it's literally just Word of God stating that Aragorn could beat the Nazgul because he could exploit a weakness of theirs. It doesn't matter that it's not consistent, it's clearly WHY Aragorn won that fight in Tolkien's mind.

Again, intent is worthless on its own! I'm not arguing the tiers anymore, but we don't use intent in this way otherwise MCU Adam Warlock would scale to Thor, and that's just one example!

Heck, using LotR itself again, Galadriel would also scale above the likes of Fingolfin if we used certain WoG statements! Then we get High 3-A Gandalf the Grey, etc. I can't stress how dangerous this specific argument is.

(though Gandalf clearly feared them a bit given that he ******* ran away)

He was outmatched. He knew it and they knew it. You don't need to be scared to run away

 

[Tyranno223]

For alternative feats to the unusable movie one, we do have

"“O! are they?” said Thorin, and he jumped forward to the fire, before they could leap on him. He caught up a big branch all on fire at one end; and Bert got that end in his eye before he could step aside. That put him out of the battle for a bit. Bilbo did his best. He caught hold of Tom’s leg—as well as he could, it was thick as a young tree-trunk—but he was sent spinning up into the top of some bushes, when Tom kicked the sparks up in Thorin’s face Tom got the branch in his teeth for that, and lost one of the front ones. It made him howl, I can tell you." - The Hobbit

• Thorin knocks the teeth from a troll using a branch.
• In comparison, Boromir fails to injure a troll using a sword.
  • "Boromir leaped forward and hewed at the arm with all his might; but his sword rang, glanced aside, and fell from his shaken hand. The blade was notched." - Fellowship of the Ring: The Bridge of Khazad-Dum
  • Trolls are also noted to be as hard or harder than stone.
• Scaling-wise, Thorin isn't exceptionally strong for a dwarf of this age, and the likes of Gimli should be roughly comparable. Though Boromir likely scales above Gimli in strength, so this might be iffy. Presumably the sword's failure is a quality issue, as Gondor has been fighting and killing trolls for decades (and it would explain why Boromir tried that move), but this delves into headcanon.
  • Alternatively the stonelike skin of a troll is probably just really good against slashes.
  • Frodo manages to harm the troll with a stab instead, albeit with sting

"‘Then let us force a path thither, you and I!’ said Aragorn. Aragorn was the tallest of the Company, but Boromir, little less in height, was broader and heavier in build. He led the way, and Aragorn followed him. Slowly they moved off, and were soon toiling heavily. In places the snow was breast-high, and often Boromir seemed to be swimming or burrowing with his great arms rather than walking. Legolas watched them for a while with a smile upon his lips, and then he turned to the others. ‘The strongest must seek a way, say you?"

• Boromir and Aragorn push a path through chest-high thick snow... not too sure here, but might as well
• Notably, Legolas call Aragorn and Boromir stronger than the rest of the company (though naturally, Gandalf is concealing his might)

"Through the throat of one huge leader Aragorn passed his sword with a thrust; with a great sweep Boromir hewed the head off another. Beside them Gimli stood with his stout legs apart, wielding his dwarfaxe. The bow of Legolas was singing." - Fellowship of the Ring: A Journey in the Dark

• Boromir cuts the head off a warg in a single swing, which the glossary and unpublished drafts in the "History of the Hobbit" describe as comparable to a wolf in size

"A mile, maybe, from Parth Galen in a little glade not far from the lake he found Boromir. He was sitting with his back to a great tree, as if he was resting. But Aragorn saw that he was pierced with many black-feathered arrows; his sword was still in his hand, but it was broken near the hilt; his horn cloven in two was at his side." - Two Towers: The Departure of Boromir

• Boromir's sword was broken in the fighting, though we lack context. It was likely either by an Uruk, or from the duress of combat at least.
• "His helm they set beside him, and across his lap they laid the cloven horn and the hilt and shards of his sword; beneath his feet" - same chapter - further context. The sword was fragmented.

"But through them there came striding up, roaring like beasts, a great company of hilltrolls out of Gorgoroth. Taller and broader than Men they were, and they were clad only in close-fitting mesh of horny scales, or maybe that was their hideous hide; but they bore round bucklers huge and black and wielded heavy hammers in their knotted hands. Reckless they sprang into the pools and waded across, bellowing as they came. Like a storm they broke upon the line of the men of Gondor, and beat upon helm and head, and arm and shield, as smiths hewing the hot bending iron. At Pippin’s side Beregond was stunned and overborne, and he fell; and the great troll-chief that smote him down bent over him, reaching out a clutching claw; for these fell creatures would bite the throats of those that they threw down." - Return of the King: The Black Gate Opens

• Beregond tanks a hit from a troll, albeit he is still knocked to the ground and stunned. The troll was notably described as wielding a "heavy hammer"
  • Beregond should not be superior to Boromir, who is considered the greatest warrior in Gondor, whereas Beregond was just a member of the Company of the Guard.
    • "I am no captain. Neither office nor rank nor lordship have I, being but a plain man of arms of the Third Company of the Citadel."- Return of the King: Minas Tirith
  • Trolls are described as having skin as hard or harder than stone
    • "But harder than stone is the flesh and bone
      Of a troll that sits in the hills alone." - Fellowship of the Ring: Hunt for the Ring
  • "Two Great trolls appeared; they bore great slabs of stone..." -Fellowship: Bridge of Khazad Dum
    • More of a lifting feat, but another showing of how strong they are
  • Treebeard is described as having a "troll-like" figure, so we can make a rough estimate based on him
    • "They found that they were looking at a most extraordinary face. It belonged to a large Man-like, almost Troll-like, figure, at least fourteen foot high, very sturdy, with a tall head, and hardly any neck. Whether it was clad in stuff like green and grey bark, or whether that was its hide, was difficult to say. At any rate the arms, at a short distance from the trunk, were not wrinkled, but covered with a brown smooth skin. The large feet had seven toes each." - Two Towers: Treebeard
      • "‘Ho, hm, well, we could, you know! You do not know, perhaps, how strong we are. Maybe you have heard of Trolls? They are mighty strong. But Trolls are only counterfeits, made by the Enemy in the Great Darkness, in mockery of Ents, as Orcs were of Elves. We are stronger than Trolls. We are made of the bones of the earth. We can split stone like the roots of trees, only quicker, far quicker, if our minds are roused!"
        • Ents are stronger than Trolls by an unknown margin, but Treebeard at least considers them "mighty strong". Ents can break stone apart - Two Towers: Treebeard
        • Letter 153 also pits some of Treebeards lines to possible doubt - "As for other points. I think I agree about the 'creation by evil'. But you are more free with the word 'creation' than I am.* Treebeard does not say that the Dark Lord 'created' Trolls and Ores. He says he 'made' them in counterfeit of certain creatures pre-existing. There is, to me, a wide gulf between the two statements, so wide that Treebeard's statement could (in my world) have possibly been true."
      • "It takes a very heavy axe-stroke to wound them seriously. They don’t like axes. But there would have to be a great many axe-men to one Ent: a man that hacks once at an Ent never gets a chance of a second blow. A punch from an Ent-fist crumples up iron like thin tin. ‘When Treebeard had got a few arrows in him, he began to warm up, to get positively ‘‘hasty’’, as he would say. He let out a great hoom-hom, and a dozen more Ents came striding up. An angry Ent is terrifying. Their fingers, and their toes, just freeze on to rock; and they tear it up like bread-crust. It was like watching the work of great tree-roots in a hundred years, all packed into a few moments. ‘They pushed, pulled, tore, shook, and hammered; and clang-bang, crash-crack, in five minutes they had these huge gates just lying in ruin; and some were already beginning to eat into the walls, like rabbits in a sand-pit. I don’t know what Saruman thought was happening; but anyway he did not know how to deal with it." - Two Towers: Flotsam and Jetsam
        • Ents can do this. Trolls may or may not downscale somewhat, as they were made to be their counterpart and are considered strong, but inferior, by Treebeard.
  • Other ents are also described as akin to trolls in figure
    • "Even as he spoke, there came forward out of the trees three strange shapes. As tall as trolls they were, twelve feet or more in height; their strong bodies, stout as young trees, seemed to be clad with raiment or with hide of close-fitting grey and brown." - Two Towers: The Road to Isengard

The Nature of Middle-Earth: Of the Land and Beasts of Numenor

• "The Númenórean men, being tall and powerful, could shoot with speed and accuracy upon foot from great long bows, whose shafts would carry to great distance (some 600 yards or more), and at lesser range were of great penetration."
  • ""The Men of the Sea," it was said, "send before them a great cloud, as a rain turned to serpents, or a black hail tipped with steel;" and in those days the great cohorts of the King's Archers used bows made of hollow steel, with black-feathered arrows a full ell long from point to notch" - Unfinished Tales
  • Helps clarify the make of the bows

Just posting these here for calcs.

 

[Experiment12]

That being said, 9-B is based on a movie feat, so Aragorn would need to be "unknown" for now. If later calcs come by, he'd upscale from the likes of Elladan, Legolas, or Boromir.

Oh yeah, I want to ask about Aragon's speed, have we identified his reaction speed, if I'm not mistaken, in the film, Aragorn avoided some arrows, and I might discuss that.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Dunno if I'd use the Treebeard statement as that seems to imply shape or stature rather than size, given the "man-like" bit.

 

[Experiment12]

the Witch King would obviously get an outright rating for scaling directly to the White Wizard

The White Witch you mean is Saruman?

They don't have enough strength to attack Saruman, and they are also wary of Saruman, which means they (Witch king and 9 Witches) are still under Saruman or you can say that their strength is far below Saruman.

"The Witch-king was determined to search north and west until Gollum was found, or the Shire. But plans were halted when Sauron received word of the events in Gondor and the doings of the turncoat Saruman, and concluded that the Wise did not yet have possession of the Ring. He sent the Ringwraiths to Isengard in the form of Black Riders, and as they passed through Rohan their terror was so great that many fled the land, believing the Riders heralded an invasion."

"They arrived at Isengard too late to prevent the escape of the captured wizard Gandalf; Saruman realized he had been revealed as a traitor to both sides due to his transparent lust for the Ring, and having no chance of deceiving Sauron any further, fortified himself in Isengard. The Witch-king did not have enough power with him to assault Saruman in his great fortress. He demanded the Wizard come forth, but received only the voice of Saruman. Nonetheless cunning and wary, Saruman convinced the Witch-king that Gandalf alone knew where the Shire and the Ring were, and so the Nine went out in search of him.[22]"

 

[Armorchompy]

Dunno if I'd use the Treebeard statement as that seems to imply shape or stature rather than size, given the "man-like" bit.

I think it's fine given the "As tall as trolls they were, twelve feet or more in height" bit. I think if downscaling Trolls from Ents is acceptable the best feat here is the "Their fingers, and their toes, just freeze on to rock; and they tear it up like bread-crust" one, I think it'd be pretty reasonable to calculate the volume of an Ent handful of rock, and then calc frag of it.

 

[Tyranno223]

I think it's fine given the "As tall as trolls they were, twelve feet or more in height" bit. I think if downscaling Trolls from Ents is acceptable the best feat here is the "Their fingers, and their toes, just freeze on to rock; and they tear it up like bread-crust" one, I think it'd be pretty reasonable to calculate the volume of an Ent handful of rock, and then calc frag of it.

I'll leave that to others then. I'm avout as good with calcs as Pippin is with common sense.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I think it's fine given the "As tall as trolls they were, twelve feet or more in height" bit. I think if downscaling Trolls from Ents is acceptable the best feat here is the "Their fingers, and their toes, just freeze on to rock; and they tear it up like bread-crust" one, I think it'd be pretty reasonable to calculate the volume of an Ent handful of rock, and then calc frag of it.

Yeah that's fair. You wanna do it and have me eval or vice versa?

 

[Armorchompy]

latter sounds good

 

[Tyranno223]

Thanks for helping out with calcs.

 

[Tyranno223]

Basic Scaling Chain:

This is just so the calcs can be applied smoothly.

Thorin:

• As noted above, Thorin explicitly damages a troll with a branch, knocking several teeth out in one strike
• Thorin is never noted as being particularly strong for a Dwarf in the Hobbit or extended material. We can assume all the Dwarves in the Hobbit are roughly comparable to one another, and presumably Gimli to Gloin.
• Gimli should be inferior to Boromir and Aragorn, as Legolas notes both are the strongest in the party (Legolas being unaware of Gandalf's true nature, as he is not "in the know"
• Thorin also notably dies from his wounds caused by orc/goblin (the difference is semantics) spears.
  • "“Hail! Thorin,” he said as he entered. “I have brought him.” There indeed lay Thorin Oakenshield, wounded with many wounds, and his rent armour and notched axe were cast upon the floor. He looked up as Bilbo came beside him... The roar of his voice was like drums and guns; and he tossed wolves and goblins from his path like straws and feathers. He fell upon their rear, and broke like a clap of thunder through the ring. The dwarves were making a stand still about their lords upon a low rounded hill. Then Beorn stooped and lifted Thorin, who had fallen pierced with spears, and bore him out of the fray. " - The Hobbit: Return Journey
  • As I noted above, Aragorn slaughters orcs and uruks without ever being endangered in comparison. He even jumps into the breach and overturns entire groups of them on his own.

Beregond:

• As noted above, Beregond tanks an attack from a warhammer wielding troll. He is knocked to the ground and stunned, but still conscious and alive.
  • A notably strong troll as well, being called "the great troll-chief"
• Beregond is noted to be a mere "man-at-arms", albeit presumably above average as a member of the "Company of the Guard" which defends Minas Tirith
• Beregond should thus be below Faramir and Boromir. Presumably he was also killable by fellow Gondorians, orcs, etc, as otherwise he would have been far more renowned.
  • "...the voice of Denethor crying: ‘Haste, haste! Do as I have bidden! Slay me this renegade! Or must I do so myself?’ Thereupon the door which Beregond held shut with his left hand was wrenched open, and there behind him stood the Lord of the City, tall and fell; a light like flame was in his eyes, and he held a drawn sword." - Return of the King: The Pyre of Denethor
  • Unless Denethor was utterly unaware of an insanely durable warrior amidst his ranks, despite his high intelligence, insight, and cunning in the books unlike the movies, he should be right in assuming Beregond to be slayable
• Notably Boromir fails to slash a troll, again, this could be a weapon quality issue, or something else. Perhaps the troll in Moria was just more durable than usual, as Boromir must have encountered trolls before during his decades warring with Mordor... but who knows.
  • "‘Believe not that in the land of Gondor the blood of Nu´menor is spent, nor all its pride and dignity forgotten. By our valour the wild folk of the East are still restrained, and the terror of Morgul kept at bay; and thus alone are peace and freedom maintained in the lands behind us, bulwark of the West. But if the passages of the River should be won, what then?" - Fellowship of the Ring: The Council of Elrond
    • "2475 Attack on Gondor renewed. Osgiliath finally ruined, and its stonebridge broken... 3018 April 12 Gandalf reaches Hobbiton" - Appendix B
  • "‘So near to Mordor?’ said Beregond quietly. ‘Yes, there it lies. We seldom name it; but we have dwelt ever in sight of that shadow: sometimes it seems fainter and more distant; sometimes nearer and darker. It is growing and darkening now; and therefore our fear and disquiet grow too. And the Fell Riders, less than a year ago they won back the crossings, and many of our best men were slain. Boromir it was that drove the enemy at last back from this western shore, and we hold still the near half of Osgiliath." Return of the King: Minas Tirith
  • Interestingly, trolls are only harmed with either blunt force, or stabbing attacks in the book. Much like real armour, it could be that troll skin is simply better against certain forms of damage
    • "Suddenly, and to his own surprise, Frodo felt a hot wrath blaze up in his heart. ‘The Shire!’ he cried, and springing beside Boromir, he stooped, and stabbed with Sting at the hideous foot. There was a bellow, and the foot jerked back, nearly wrenching Sting from Frodo’s arm. Black drops dripped from the blade and smoked on the floor." - Fellowship of the Ring: The Bridge of Khazad-Dum
    • "Then Pippin stabbed upwards, and the written blade of Westernesse pierced through the hide and went deep into the vitals of the troll, and his black blood came gushing out." - Return of the King: The Black Gate Opens
    • Note: Sting and Pippin's swords are simultaneously not ordinary blades however. Sting being forged in Gondolin, and the blade of Westernesse being a special anti-Wraith weapon made in Arnor.
      • Notably, the latter weapon, while noteworthy, was not so special in quality that Denethor gave it more than some degree of interest that passes quickly. It presumably isn't exceptional beyond its niche ability
      • "A pale smile, like a gleam of cold sun on a winter’s evening, passed over the old man’s face; but he bent his head and held out his hand, laying the shards of the horn aside. ‘Give me the weapon!’ he said. Pippin lifted it and presented the hilt to him. ‘Whence came this?’ said Denethor. ‘Many, many years lie on it. Surely this is a blade wrought by our own kindred in the North in the deep past? ‘It came out of the mounds that lie on the borders of my country,’ said Pippin. ‘But only evil wights dwell there now, and I will not willingly tell more of them.’ ‘I see that strange tales are woven about you,’ said Denethor, ‘and once again it is shown that looks may belie the man – or the halfling. I accept your service. For you are not daunted by words; and you have courteous speech, strange though the sound of it may be to us in the South. And we shall have need of all folk of courtesy, be they great or small, in the days to come. Swear to me now!’ ’" - Return of the King: Gondor
  • Trolls were also present at the Pelennor Fields (including Olog-Hai) but were killed by unknown means. Must have been either bow, sword, or lance however. Trebuchets were a movie addition
    • "Grond they named it, in memory of the Hammer of the Underworld of old. Great beasts drew it, orcs surrounded it, and behind walked mountain-trolls to wield it. But about the Gate resistance still was stout..." - Return of the King: Siege of Minas Tirith

So Gimli is roughly comparable to Thorin, and he is < Boromir and Aragorn

Beregond is < Boromir, Faramir, Imrahil.

Boromir should be < Aragorn, as the Numenorean dwindling is far more pronounced in him

• "...before the War of the Ring, during which the dwindling of the Númenóreans had shown itself in stature as well as in life-span" - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Descriptions of Characters
  • "The Númenóreans before the Downfall were a people of great stature and strength...Elendil the Tall, leader of the Faithful who survived the Downfall, was said to have surpassed 7 ft., though his sons were not quite so tall. Aragorn, his direct descendant, in spite of the many intervening generations, must still have been a very tall and strong man with a great stride; he was probably at least 6 ft. 6. Boromir, of high Númenórean lineage, would not be much shorter: say 6 ft. 4." - same chapter. Notably shows how the blessings also attribute strength as part of it, not just height and lifespan
    • Explains this ridiculous bow distance - "The Númenórean men, being tall and powerful, could shoot with speed and accuracy upon foot from great long bows, whose shafts would carry to great distance (some 600 yards or more), and at lesser range were of great penetration." OF THE LAND AND BEASTS OF NÚMENOR
    • In comparison, longbows are effective from 450 to 1000 feet. The Numenorean bow would be 1800 feet or more
  • "Now Aragorn was born in TA 2931, but lived until 4A 100, and was then of full age, but not yet becoming senile. His years were then 190. [10] He was the “last of the Númenóreans”, and his span was equal to the Kings of Men of old (as is said): thrice that of ordinary Men. Actually, his rate was probably rather 5 : 2 than 3 : 1: so that he was at his wedding in TA 3019 in years 88, in age 35; and at death in years 190, in age 75. (The full Númenórean rate would make him 29 at his wedding and 63 at death.)" - Time-Scales and Rate of Growth
    • "(For those who joined Men a special rate of growth was established, approximately 3 : 1, though this diminished, but was in Aragorn almost restored: he was 5 : 2)"
    • Note, the actually lifespan is inaccurate to the final edition of LOTR - "In the first edition (1955) of RotK App. B, Aragorn (born March 1, 2931) was said to have died on March 1, 1521, thus aged (exactly) 190 years, as here. In the second edition (1966) the year was altered to 1541, with Aragorn thus departing precisely at the age of 210 (which, it may be noted, is precisely three times 70; cf. Psalm 89 [90] verse 10: “The days of our life are seventy years, or perhaps eighty, if we are strong”). "
    • Another addendum, but Tolkien's idea of Numenorean lifespans changed from this point. Aragorn's lifespan remains at 210, but the Numenorean ones reach around or over 400, with Elros reaching 500. Not too important though, as the point remains that Aragorn should have more of the blessings than the likes of Boromir
      • "The royal family or “Line of Elros” was in general longeval, and often lived for 400 years or a little more. In other families 400 years was less often achieved" Live of the Numenoreans
  • In compraison, Faramir, who is more Numenorean than Boromir, dies at 120
    • "Faramir. born 2983 lived 120 years died 3103. = Fourth Age 82." - The Peoples of Middle-Earth: The Heirs of Elendil
    • "‘He is not as other men of this time, Pippin, and whatever be his descent from father to son, by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir, and yet did not in Boromir whom he loved best." - Return of the King: Minas Tirith
    • However, Faramir doesn't appear to be superior to Boromir. This can be attributed to the former being less martially inclined and the latter still possessing much of the Numenorean gift, even if less than Faramir. Or simply that Faramir's heritage was simply not too potent, despite his blood running nearly "true".
      • "We are become Middle Men, of the Twilight, but with memory of other things. For as the Rohirrim do, we now love war and valour as things good in themselves, both a sport and an end; and though we still hold that a warrior should have more skills and knowledge than only the craft of weapons and slaying, we esteem a warrior, nonetheless, above men of other crafts. Such is the need of our days. So even was my brother, Boromir: a man of prowess, and for that he was accounted the best man in Gondor. And very valiant indeed he was: no heir of Minas Tirith has for long years been so hardy in toil, so onward into battle, or blown a mightier note on the Great Horn.’" - Two Towers: The Window on the West

Imrahil doesn't have a profile yet, but he's definetly above Beregond at least.

• "Aragorn and Eomer ´ and Imrahil rode back towards the Gate of the City, and they were now weary beyond joy or sorrow. These three were unscathed, for such was their fortune and the skill and might of their arms" - Return of the King: The Battle of Pelennor Fields
  • Trivia, but he also has elf blood... that might be something "At length they came to the Prince Imrahil, and Legolas looked at him and bowed low; for he saw that here indeed was one who had elven-blood in his veins." Return of the King: The Last Debate
  • Also potent Numenorean heritage "I replied that I myself imagined Aragorn, Denethor, Imrahil, Boromir, Faramir as beardless. This, I said, I supposed not to be due to any custom of shaving, but a racial characteristic... The tribes of Men from whom the Númenóreans were descended were normal, and hence the majority of them would have beards. But the royal house was half-elven, having two strains of Elvish race in their ancestry through Lúthien of Doriath (royal Sindarin) and Idril of Gondolin (royal Noldorin). The effects were long-lasting: e.g. in a tendency to a stature a little above the average, to a greater (though steadily decreasing) longevity, and probably most lastingly in beardlessness.... This “chance”, I said, was to be seen in the fact that Húrin the First Steward (from whom Denethor was directly descended) must have been a kinsman of King Minardil... The people of Belfalas (Dol Amroth) were mainly Númenórean in origin, descendants of settlers before the division of the people or the armada of Ar-Pharazôn... The legend of the prince’s line was that one of their earliest fathers had wedded an Elf-maiden: in some legends it was indeed (evidently improbable) to have been Nimrodel herself; more probably in other tales it was one of Nimrodel’s companions who was lost in the upper mountain glens.... In any case I do not imagine Imrahil as bearded" - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Beards

Conclusion

Scaling 1: Thorin roughly = Gimli < Boromir < Aragorn
Scaling 2: Beregond < Faramir < Boromir < Aragorn (Imrahil should be either here, or somewhere below Boromir)

Trolls are of course < Ents, but are still strong enough to be noted as quite strong by Treebeard, which makes sense as Morgoth likely made them in the likeness of Ents. Plus Treebeard's claim comes from a naturally biased source. Tolkien even notes Treebeard's POV is not 100% reliable

• "As for other points. I think I agree about the 'creation by evil'. But you are more free with the word 'creation' than I am.* Treebeard does not say that the Dark Lord 'created' Trolls and Ores. He says he 'made' them in counterfeit of certain creatures pre-existing. There is, to me, a wide gulf between the two statements, so wide that Treebeard's statement could (in my world) have possibly been true. It is not true actually of the Orcs –" - Letter 153

Addendum:

"But at the end of the Third Age a troll-race not before seen appeared in southern Mirkwood and in the mountain borders of Mordor. Olog-hai they were called in the Black Speech. That Sauron bred them none doubted, though from what stock was not known. Some held that they were not Trolls but giant Orcs; but the Olog-hai were in fashion of body and mind quite unlike even the largest of Orc-kind, whom they far surpassed in size and power."

The trolls that harmed Beregond may have been Olog-Hai. Gorgoroth, where the trolls emerged from, is described as bordering the mountain regions, which is where Olog-Hai emerge from. This was also Sauron's attempt to crush the forces of the West once and for all, so he may have used these trolls. But this is getting into headcanon territory

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

Basic Scaling Chain:

This is just so the calcs can be applied smoothly.

Thorin:

• As noted above, Thorin explicitly damages a troll with a branch, knocking several teeth out in one strike
• Thorin is never noted as being particularly strong for a Dwarf in the Hobbit or extended material. We can assume all the Dwarves in the Hobbit are roughly comparable to one another, and presumably Gimli to Gloin.
• Gimli should be inferior to Boromir and Aragorn, as Legolas notes both are the strongest in the party (Legolas being unaware of Gandalf's true nature, as he is not "in the know"
• Thorin also notably dies from his wounds caused by orc/goblin (the difference is semantics) spears.
  • "“Hail! Thorin,” he said as he entered. “I have brought him.” There indeed lay Thorin Oakenshield, wounded with many wounds, and his rent armour and notched axe were cast upon the floor. He looked up as Bilbo came beside him... The roar of his voice was like drums and guns; and he tossed wolves and goblins from his path like straws and feathers. He fell upon their rear, and broke like a clap of thunder through the ring. The dwarves were making a stand still about their lords upon a low rounded hill. Then Beorn stooped and lifted Thorin, who had fallen pierced with spears, and bore him out of the fray. " - The Hobbit: Return Journey
  • As I noted above, Aragorn slaughters orcs and uruks without ever being endangered in comparison. He even jumps into the breach and overturns entire groups of them on his own.

Beregond:

• As noted above, Beregond tanks an attack from a warhammer wielding troll. He is knocked to the ground and stunned, but still conscious and alive.
• Beregond is noted to be a mere "man-at-arms", albeit presumably above average as a member of the "Company of the Guard" which defends Minas Tirith
• Beregond should thus be below Faramir and Boromir. Presumably he was also killable by fellow Gondorians, orcs, etc, as otherwise he would have been far more renowned.
  • "...the voice of Denethor crying: ‘Haste, haste! Do as I have bidden! Slay me this renegade! Or must I do so myself?’ Thereupon the door which Beregond held shut with his left hand was wrenched open, and there behind him stood the Lord of the City, tall and fell; a light like flame was in his eyes, and he held a drawn sword." - Return of the King: The Pyre of Denethor
  • Unless Denethor was utterly unaware of an insanely durable warrior amidst his ranks, despite his high intelligence, insight, and cunning in the books unlike the movies, he should be right in assuming Beregond to be slayable
• Notably Boromir fails to slash a troll, again, this could be a weapon quality issue, or something else. Perhaps the troll in Moria was just more durable than usual, as Boromir must have encountered trolls before during his decades warring with Mordor... but who knows.
  • "‘Believe not that in the land of Gondor the blood of Nu´menor is spent, nor all its pride and dignity forgotten. By our valour the wild folk of the East are still restrained, and the terror of Morgul kept at bay; and thus alone are peace and freedom maintained in the lands behind us, bulwark of the West. But if the passages of the River should be won, what then?" - Fellowship of the Ring: The Council of Elrond
    • "2475 Attack on Gondor renewed. Osgiliath finally ruined, and its stonebridge broken... 3018 April 12 Gandalf reaches Hobbiton" - Appendix B
  • "‘So near to Mordor?’ said Beregond quietly. ‘Yes, there it lies. We seldom name it; but we have dwelt ever in sight of that shadow: sometimes it seems fainter and more distant; sometimes nearer and darker. It is growing and darkening now; and therefore our fear and disquiet grow too. And the Fell Riders, less than a year ago they won back the crossings, and many of our best men were slain. Boromir it was that drove the enemy at last back from this western shore, and we hold still the near half of Osgiliath." Return of the King: Minas Tirith
  • Interestingly, trolls are only harmed with either blunt force, or stabbing attacks in the book. Much like real armour, it could be that troll skin is simply better against certain forms of damage
    • "Suddenly, and to his own surprise, Frodo felt a hot wrath blaze up in his heart. ‘The Shire!’ he cried, and springing beside Boromir, he stooped, and stabbed with Sting at the hideous foot. There was a bellow, and the foot jerked back, nearly wrenching Sting from Frodo’s arm. Black drops dripped from the blade and smoked on the floor." - Fellowship of the Ring: The Bridge of Khazad-Dum
    • "Then Pippin stabbed upwards, and the written blade of Westernesse pierced through the hide and went deep into the vitals of the troll, and his black blood came gushing out." - Return of the King: The Black Gate Opens
    • Note: Sting and Pippin's swords are simultaneously not ordinary blades however. Sting being forged in Gondolin, and the blade of Westernesse being a special anti-Wraith weapon made in Arnor.
      • Notably, the latter weapon, while noteworthy, was not so special in piercing quality that Denethor gave it more than some degree of interest that passes quickly. It presumably isn't exceptional beyond its niche ability
      • "A pale smile, like a gleam of cold sun on a winter’s evening, passed over the old man’s face; but he bent his head and held out his hand, laying the shards of the horn aside. ‘Give me the weapon!’ he said. Pippin lifted it and presented the hilt to him. ‘Whence came this?’ said Denethor. ‘Many, many years lie on it. Surely this is a blade wrought by our own kindred in the North in the deep past? ‘It came out of the mounds that lie on the borders of my country,’ said Pippin. ‘But only evil wights dwell there now, and I will not willingly tell more of them.’ ‘I see that strange tales are woven about you,’ said Denethor, ‘and once again it is shown that looks may belie the man – or the halfling. I accept your service. For you are not daunted by words; and you have courteous speech, strange though the sound of it may be to us in the South. And we shall have need of all folk of courtesy, be they great or small, in the days to come. Swear to me now!’ ’" - Return of the King: Gondor
  • Trolls were also present at the Pelennor Fields (including Olog-Hai) but were killed by unknown means. Must have been either bow, sword, or lance however. Trebuchets were a movie addition
    • "Grond they named it, in memory of the Hammer of the Underworld of old. Great beasts drew it, orcs surrounded it, and behind walked mountain-trolls to wield it. But about the Gate resistance still was stout..." - Return of the King: Siege of Minas Tirith

So Gimli is roughly comparable to Thorin, and he is < Boromir and Aragorn

Beregond is < Boromir, Faramir, Imrahil.

Boromir should be < Aragorn, as the Numenorean dwindling is far more pronounced in him

• "...before the War of the Ring, during which the dwindling of the Númenóreans had shown itself in stature as well as in life-span" - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Descriptions of Characters
  • "The Númenóreans before the Downfall were a people of great stature and strength...Elendil the Tall, leader of the Faithful who survived the Downfall, was said to have surpassed 7 ft., though his sons were not quite so tall. Aragorn, his direct descendant, in spite of the many intervening generations, must still have been a very tall and strong man with a great stride; he was probably at least 6 ft. 6. Boromir, of high Númenórean lineage, would not be much shorter: say 6 ft. 4." - same chapter. Notably shows how the blessings also attribute strength as part of it, not just height and lifespan
    • Explains this ridiculous bow distance - "The Númenórean men, being tall and powerful, could shoot with speed and accuracy upon foot from great long bows, whose shafts would carry to great distance (some 600 yards or more), and at lesser range were of great penetration." OF THE LAND AND BEASTS OF NÚMENOR
    • In comparison, longbows are effective from 450 to 1000 feet. The Numenorean bow would be 1800 feet or more
  • "Now Aragorn was born in TA 2931, but lived until 4A 100, and was then of full age, but not yet becoming senile. His years were then 190. [10] He was the “last of the Númenóreans”, and his span was equal to the Kings of Men of old (as is said): thrice that of ordinary Men. Actually, his rate was probably rather 5 : 2 than 3 : 1: so that he was at his wedding in TA 3019 in years 88, in age 35; and at death in years 190, in age 75. (The full Númenórean rate would make him 29 at his wedding and 63 at death.)" - Time-Scales and Rate of Growth
    • "(For those who joined Men a special rate of growth was established, approximately 3 : 1, though this diminished, but was in Aragorn almost restored: he was 5 : 2)"
    • Note, the actually lifespan is inaccurate to the final edition of LOTR - "In the first edition (1955) of RotK App. B, Aragorn (born March 1, 2931) was said to have died on March 1, 1521, thus aged (exactly) 190 years, as here. In the second edition (1966) the year was altered to 1541, with Aragorn thus departing precisely at the age of 210 (which, it may be noted, is precisely three times 70; cf. Psalm 89 [90] verse 10: “The days of our life are seventy years, or perhaps eighty, if we are strong”). "
    • Another addendum, but Tolkien's idea of Numenorean lifespans changed from this point. Aragorn's lifespan remains at 210, but the Numenorean ones reach around or over 400, with Elros reaching 500. Not too important though, as the point remains that Aragorn should have more of the blessings than the likes of Boromir
      • "The royal family or “Line of Elros” was in general longeval, and often lived for 400 years or a little more. In other families 400 years was less often achieved" Live of the Numenoreans
  • In compraison, Faramir, who is more Numenorean than Boromir, dies at 120
    • "Faramir. born 2983 lived 120 years died 3103. = Fourth Age 82." - The Peoples of Middle-Earth: The Heirs of Elendil
    • "‘He is not as other men of this time, Pippin, and whatever be his descent from father to son, by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir, and yet did not in Boromir whom he loved best." - Return of the King: Minas Tirith
    • However, Faramir doesn't appear to be superior to Boromir. This can be attributed to the former being less martially inclined and the latter still possessing much of the Numenorean gift, even if less than Faramir. Or simply that Faramir's heritage was simply not too potent, despite his blood running nearly "true".
      • "We are become Middle Men, of the Twilight, but with memory of other things. For as the Rohirrim do, we now love war and valour as things good in themselves, both a sport and an end; and though we still hold that a warrior should have more skills and knowledge than only the craft of weapons and slaying, we esteem a warrior, nonetheless, above men of other crafts. Such is the need of our days. So even was my brother, Boromir: a man of prowess, and for that he was accounted the best man in Gondor. And very valiant indeed he was: no heir of Minas Tirith has for long years been so hardy in toil, so onward into battle, or blown a mightier note on the Great Horn.’" - Two Towers: The Window on the West

Imrahil doesn't have a profile yet, but he's definetly above Beregond at least.

• "Aragorn and Eomer ´ and Imrahil rode back towards the Gate of the City, and they were now weary beyond joy or sorrow. These three were unscathed, for such was their fortune and the skill and might of their arms" - Return of the King: The Battle of Pelennor Fields
  • Trivia, but he also has elf blood... that might be something "At length they came to the Prince Imrahil, and Legolas looked at him and bowed low; for he saw that here indeed was one who had elven-blood in his veins." Return of the King: The Last Debate
  • Also potent Numenorean heritage "I replied that I myself imagined Aragorn, Denethor, Imrahil, Boromir, Faramir as beardless. This, I said, I supposed not to be due to any custom of shaving, but a racial characteristic... The tribes of Men from whom the Númenóreans were descended were normal, and hence the majority of them would have beards. But the royal house was half-elven, having two strains of Elvish race in their ancestry through Lúthien of Doriath (royal Sindarin) and Idril of Gondolin (royal Noldorin). The effects were long-lasting: e.g. in a tendency to a stature a little above the average, to a greater (though steadily decreasing) longevity, and probably most lastingly in beardlessness.... This “chance”, I said, was to be seen in the fact that Húrin the First Steward (from whom Denethor was directly descended) must have been a kinsman of King Minardil... The people of Belfalas (Dol Amroth) were mainly Númenórean in origin, descendants of settlers before the division of the people or the armada of Ar-Pharazôn... The legend of the prince’s line was that one of their earliest fathers had wedded an Elf-maiden: in some legends it was indeed (evidently improbable) to have been Nimrodel herself; more probably in other tales it was one of Nimrodel’s companions who was lost in the upper mountain glens.... In any case I do not imagine Imrahil as bearded" - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Beards

Conclusion

Scaling 1: Thorin roughly = Gimli < Boromir < Aragorn
Scaling 2: Beregond < Faramir < Boromir < Aragorn (Imrahil should be either here, or somewhere below Boromir)

Trolls are of course > Ents, but are still strong enough to be noted as quite strong by Treebeard. Plus his claim comes from a naturally biased source.

This looks good to me. Very well thought-out

 

[Armorchompy]

Same thoughts here. One thing though, could you post the bit regarding Trolls being compared to Ents?

 

[Tyranno223]

Same thoughts here. One thing though, could you post the bit regarding Trolls being compared to Ents?

"‘Ho, hm, well, we could, you know! You do not know, perhaps, how strong we are. Maybe you have heard of Trolls? They are mighty strong. But Trolls are only counterfeits, made by the Enemy in the Great Darkness, in mockery of Ents, as Orcs were of Elves. We are stronger than Trolls. We are made of the bones of the earth. We can split stone like the roots of trees, only quicker, far quicker, if our minds are roused!" - Fellowship of the Ring: Treebeard

Notably Treebeard claims Ents are stronger, but that Trolls are "mighty strong". His claim is also tinged with bias, and we know Tolkien has outright stated that Treebeard has made incorrect statements (as noted in the edited above text). They are presumably comparable, with Trolls being weaker.

 

[Tyranno223]

Alternatively a calc could be done for a 12-14 foot equivalent to a human (at minimum) swinging a warhammer at a chainmail wearing human sized... human. Roughly around 6 foot, as Beregond is a Gondorian.

Trolls are also repeatedly described as harder than stone or stone-like.

• "But harder than stone is the flesh and bone
  Of a troll that sits in the hills alone." - Fellowship of the Ring: Hunt for the Ring
• "Olog-hai were in fashion of body and mind quite unlike even the largest of Orc-kind, whom they far surpassed in size and power. Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race, strong, agile, fierce and cunning, but harder than stone." - LotR: Appendix F
• "They searched about, and soon found the marks of trolls’ stony boots going away through the trees." - The Hobbit
• "“Dawn take you all, and be stone to you!” said a voice that sounded like William’s. But it wasn’t. For just at that moment the light came over the hill, and there was a mighty twitter in the branches. William never spoke for he stood turned to stone as he stooped; and Bert and Tom were stuck like rocks as they looked at him." - The Hobbit

Thorin knocking out the teeth of one Troll

 

[Tyranno223]

Oh yeah, I want to ask about Aragon's speed, have we identified his reaction speed, if I'm not mistaken, in the film, Aragorn avoided some arrows, and I might discuss that.

I still believe Aragorn should scale to the Nazgul in speed, as he fended off five of them, even if "at most"

But beyond that, Legolas should be subsonic combat speed, as Elves can move their limbs at FTE speeds when motivated

"To a Man Elves appear to speak rapidly (but with clarity and precision) unless they a little delay their speech for Men’s sake; to move quickly and featly, unless in urgency, or much moved, or eager in their work, when the movement of their hands, for instance, become too swift for human eyes to follow closely." - The Nature of Middle-Earth: CONCERNING THE QUENDI IN THEIR MODE OF LIFE AND GROWTH

I still need to check which characters scale to him though.

"Aragorn and Eomer ´ and Imrahil rode back towards the Gate of the City, and they were now weary beyond joy or sorrow. These three were unscathed, for such was their fortune and the skill and might of their arms, and few indeed had dared to abide them or look on their faces in the hour of their wrath." - The Return of the King: The Battle of Pelennor Fields

• At the very least, the fact that Legolas came out of the battle wounded, whereas Eomer, Aragorn, and Imrahil did not may allow them to "possibly" scale. Not solidly though, as there were several factors to their untouched status. This furthered by the fact that Elladan and Elrohir were also implied to be harmed during the battle, with both beings sons of Elrond.
  • Note, Eomer, Aragorn, and Imrahil all have special lineage, and all share a Numenorean heritage. The limits of "normal men" do not apply to them.
• You could also claim that most of the fellowship is comparable to him, as he is never stated to be exceptionally fast, even in combat. Although he usually only fights with bow
  • Helm's Deep see him maintaining a long knife, implying he had entered melee due to lack of arrows - "The elf was whetting his long knife. There was for a while a lull in the assault, since the attempt to break in through the culvert had been foiled" - Two Towers: Helm's Deep

Edit: The quote had a word that is considered a slur in the modern context, but was used as a "verb"

 

[Hellbeast]

The White Witch you mean is Saruman?

Whuite Wizard is Gandalf at this time, I'd also argue the Amped Witch King could give Saruman trouble

Alternatively a calc could be done for a 12-14 foot equivalent to a human (at minimum) swinging a warhammer at a chainmail wearing human sized... human. Roughly around 6 foot, as Beregond is a Gondorian.

Trolls are also repeatedly described as harder than stone or stone-like.

• "But harder than stone is the flesh and bone
  Of a troll that sits in the hills alone." - Fellowship of the Ring: Hunt for the Ring
• "Olog-hai were in fashion of body and mind quite unlike even the largest of Orc-kind, whom they far surpassed in size and power. Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race, strong, agile, fierce and cunning, but harder than stone." - LotR: Appendix F
• "They searched about, and soon found the marks of trolls’ stony boots going away through the trees." - The Hobbit
• "“Dawn take you all, and be stone to you!” said a voice that sounded like William’s. But it wasn’t. For just at that moment the light came over the hill, and there was a mighty twitter in the branches. William never spoke for he stood turned to stone as he stooped; and Bert and Tom were stuck like rocks as they looked at him." - The Hobbit

Thorin knocking out the teeth of one Troll

This applies to Tuor as well right