Lord of the Rings general revision thread (continued)

[SheevShezarrine]

I think something that's being overlooked with Gandalf's statement of "this is a foe beyond any of you" is that aside from Maiar being pretty damn powerful, they also can't be killed in the way a man or even an elf can. So on top of Gandalf having (at very least) slightly better chances than Aragorn of taking on the Balrog, it's a more even trade of losses if it's a double KO (which it was).
Think of it this way: if you were to fight someone who was at least slightly physically superior to you, has considerably more versatility via magic, and considers their physical form as nothing more than clothes that they will inevitably just stitch back together no matter what you do to them, it would be quite accurate to describe them as "a foe beyond you", regardless of if you luck out and win that fight or not.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

One thing, though, we're not saying that you're scaling him to a Balrog, we're saying that Gandalf explicitly saying that he isn't comparable to a Balrog is an anti-feat for his current rating.

Feats and statements are different things. In general, feats are in an entirely different weight class of validity compared to statements, even from knowledgeable characters. For example, Joe Rogan could claim that a chimpanzee would handily defeat Mike Tyson, and it would be a believable statement; Joe Rogan is an experienced martial artist and combat sports commentator, as well as a learned and well-known respecter of chimpanzees. Ultimately, though, the statement isn't entirely verifiable because it hasn't happened, and if the opposite were to happen then the statement, reliable though it may have been prior, would be invalidated.

 

[Tyranno223]

Listen, I definitely agree that this has gone circular but just responding to arguments with "oh I addressed this before, clearly you didn't read that!" just makes you look like you're not listening. Yes, you obviously made your arguments. That doesn't mean that my own are immediately invalid, powerscaling is a subjective thing and I don't find most of your points very convincing.

Admittedly I have been wording this a bit too abrasively due to how circular this is getting, but I have done my best to answer ever single question. At this point however, I am genuinely repeating myself.

I'm fine with having a vote or something given that this clearly isn't going to end with one convincing the other.

This is fair.

Agree:
NaturalDestroyer
DDM
Me

Disagree:
Armorchompy
MrBambu

Compromise:
Hellbeast

One thing, though, we're not saying that you're scaling him to a Balrog, we're saying that Gandalf explicitly saying that he isn't comparable to a Balrog is an anti-feat for his current rating.

It's not that big of an issue. We have Glorfindel's two keys, and the gap between the first and second is massive. However, we lack the feats to scale him higher, so all we can do is vaguely shove them in the same key with an "at least" at the start of the Low 7-B (which I should also add to the Balrogs, Gandalf, Saruman, etc).

Also, this statement can't really be used as good evidence for a stats anti-feat. Why? Because Aragorn has Anduril already

 

[Ped2018]

HAS ANDUIL ALREADY (caps for emphasis)

Just bold it

 

[Tyranno223]

Just bold it

This is what happens when I'm tired...

 

[Hellbeast]

Wait a minute, what's the problem? can be explained?
I've recently been active on forums.

The issue is Aragorn’s scaling

 

[Armorchompy]

It's not that big of an issue. We have Glorfindel's two keys, and the gap between the first and second is massive. However, we lack the feats to scale him higher, so all we can do is vaguely shove them in the same key with an "at least" at the start of the Low 7-B (which I should also add to the Balrogs, Gandalf, Saruman, etc).

What? The scaling is coming from the Balrogs. Why would they get an at least?

Also, Ungoliant's profile should be fixed to accomodate the scaling, since right now it's Unknown | 4-A/3-B

Also, this statement can't really be used as good evidence for a stats anti-feat. Why? Because Aragorn has Anduril already

Wouldn't do him much good if he were to just get blitzed and one-shot the second he stepped near the Balrog.

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

I feel like a "possibly far higher" or "likely far higher" would be a good compromise, given the inconsistencies within Tolkien's scaling and the disagreements on this thread.

 

[Tyranno223]

What? The scaling is coming from the Balrogs. Why would they get an at least?

Glorfindel, though I got my memory a bit muddled since I was tired.

Glorfindel's second key gets an "at least", as does Galadriel. Gandalf the Grey probably should, but he's equal to a Balrog.

As this part of the scaling, the whole thing is a bit troublesome to scale due to conflicting possibilities.

Also, Ungoliant's profile should be fixed to accomodate the scaling, since right now it's Unknown | 4-A/3-B

It's going to be slow, but every profile will be changed.

Wouldn't do him much good if he were to just get blitzed and one-shot the second he stepped near the Balrog.

The Balrog was very much distracted, but that's a fair point.

Regardless, I don't think the Balrog is a deciding issue.

You can be in the same tier and still downscale by an unknown amount.

I feel like a "possibly far higher" or "likely far higher" would be a good compromise, given the inconsistencies within Tolkien's scaling and the disagreements on this thread.

Perhaps, although I already got DDM's support, which was one of the things Bambu was asking me to get.

At this point, I'm a quite a bit against leaving the issue just unresolved like that.

 

[Tyranno223]

The thing is, I haven't gotten a sufficient counter for the Witch-King point. Armor brings up the Ringbearer, which is true, but also ignores the fact that the statement outright says the Witch-King saw Aragorn as strong and feared him. Unlike Frodo, there's no additional commentary about this fear being the result of myriad factors, just him being a "great power".

This works well with Aragorn being able to repulse the Nine alongside the Dunedain in a hypothetical Sarn Ford battle.

Plus his already proven displays in the Fellowship.

The only real anti-feat is the Balrog, who would still be above Aragorn in this revision, just within the same tier. Heck, you literally can give the Balrogs an "at least" since the feat can go up to 6-C but that's besides the point.

 

[Armorchompy]

Glorfindel, though I got my memory a bit muddled since I was tired.
Glorfindel's second key gets an "at least", as does Galadriel. Gandalf the Grey probably should, but he's equal to a Balrog.
As this part of the scaling, the whole thing is a bit troublesome to scale due to conflicting possibilities.
It's going to be slow, but every profile will be changed.

fair

The Balrog was very much distracted, but that's a fair point.
Regardless, I don't think the Balrog is a deciding issue.
You can be in the same tier and still downscale by an unknown amount.

If he does scale, the scaling chain clearly doesn't put him that far below, not to the point of being completely useless. I think that he would get one-tapped like that, but that's because my argument is that Gandalf's statement does hold water, and that it's a showing against Aragorn's current rating.

The thing is, I haven't gotten a sufficient counter for the Witch-King point. Armor brings up the Ringbearer, which is true, but also ignores the fact that the statement outright says the Witch-King saw Aragorn as strong and feared him. Unlike Frodo, there's no additional commentary about this fear being the result of myriad factors, just him being a "great power".

The "great power" and the "he feared him" things are from different contexts. As far as we can tell, Aragorn used exclusively fire in that fight, he doesn't even have any reasons to assume Aragorn could even hurt him without it, and fire is something he's explicitly afraid of (not to mention, the Nazgul could afford to retreat, given that they had already dealt Frodo a mortal poisoning, so it makes sense that, faced with something that they hated so much as well as a weapon capable of killing them, they'd just turn tails). The "great power" bit is just him acknowledging that Strider is way better than he'd expected, but it doesn't imply scaling, the context is just him not understanding why he's not the Ringbearer of the group.

I recognize that interpreting the two together can lead to a (valid) interpretation of "he ran away because he was afraid of Aragorn's power", but I don't think that's the only viable one.

For the record, I wouldn't oppose scaling Aragorn to the Nazgul speed-wise personally, I don't think that's contrasted in the same ways and it's a "likely" tier to begin with.

 

[Tyranno223]

fair

If he does scale, the scaling chain clearly doesn't put him that far below. I think that he would get one-tapped like that, but that's because my argument is that Gandalf's statement does hold water, and that it's a showing against Aragorn's current rating.

Well, I have a solution to that below. That being said, the statement itself could mean "beyond your power to win" which would be true, even if Aragorn was somewhat comparable. Even Gandalf, an equal, had to fight for days on end and died from the process.

Aragorn can't replicate that.

The "great power" and the "he feared him" things are from different contexts. As far as we can tell, Aragorn used exclusively fire in that fight, he doesn't even have any reasons to assume Aragorn could even hurt him without it, and fire is something he's explicitly afraid of (not to mention, the Nazgul could afford to retreat, given that they had already dealt Frodo a mortal poisoning).

Perhaps, but fire is never even mentioned in the Witch-King's thoughts, and we know he is more resilient to such fears compared to the other Nazgul (the River for instance).

The "great power" bit is just him acknowledging that Strider is way better than he'd expected, but it doesn't imply scaling, the context is just him not understanding why he's not the Ringbearer of the group.

Again, the grammar doesn't agree. He says "great power" despite being a ranger. Not "great power" for a ranger, but despite.

He acknowledged Aragorn as a danger. That is plain and simple. He fears Aragorn too, which adds to it.

For the record, I wouldn't oppose scaling Aragorn to the Nazgul speed-wise personally, I don't think that's contrasted in the same ways.

Well on that we agree, but that damages the Balrog point for you. That being said, the Balrogs are dangerous in multiple ways.

Arien for instance, a fire-spirit (albeit far more potent) is too hot for the likes of Tilion to approach without injury.

Perhaps Aragron would just burn up if he got close, who knows. I still need to work on ability revisions after all this. I'll have a look and come back to this point

 

[Armorchompy]

Well, I have a solution to that below. That being said, the statement itself could mean "beyond your power to win" which would be true, even if Aragorn was somewhat comparable. Even Gandalf, an equal, had to fight for days on end and died from the process.

He doesn't need to fight him on his own, Gandalf would likely to the most of that, but he could help, especially with his sword.

Perhaps, but fire is never even mentioned in the Witch-King's thoughts, and we know he is more resilient to such fears compared to the other Nazgul (the River for instance).

He's still ultimately a being dominated by his fears, the only reason he obeys Sauron to begin with is that he's terrified of him. I think it'd make sense that with the mission seemingly completed he'd just rather not stick around and get fire waved in his face. It's not like Aragorn actually injured any of them, they're all fine in later scenes.

Again, the grammar doesn't agree. He says "great power" despite being a ranger. Not "great power" for a ranger, but despite.

He acknowledged Aragorn as a danger. That is plain and simple. He fears Aragorn too, which adds to it.

Nowhere does it compare that power to the WK's own in any way. It just says that he's very strong, in the context of "why isn't this guy carrying the ring when he's so much stronger than the halfling?".

Well on that we agree, but that damages the Balrog point for you.

It's still an anti-feat on that front too, it's just the only one and scaling in speed to the Nazgul isn't something as egregious as AP.

Arien for instance, a fire-spirit (albeit far more potent) is too hot for the likes of Tilion to approach without injury.

Perhaps Aragron would just burn up if he got close, who knows. I still need to work on ability revisions after all this. I'll have a look and come back to this point

Generally, although this is often inconsistent, resistance to heat stuff is tied to durability somewhat.

 

[Tyranno223]

He doesn't need to fight him on his own, Gandalf would likely to the most of that, but he could help, especially with his sword.

Then this is a speed anti-feat if anything.

He's still ultimately a being dominated by his fears, the only reason he obeys Sauron to begin with is that he's terrified of him. I think it'd make sense that with the mission seemingly completed he'd just rather not stick around and get fire waved in his face. It's not like Aragorn actually injured any of them, they're all fine in later scenes.

We don't really know their state, beyond them being able enough to continue fighting. The Nazgul can be taken to have some degree of healing factors, but that's for the ability revision, and this is a side-topic.

Nowhere does it compare that power to the WK's own in any way. It just says that he's very strong, in the context of "why isn't this guy carrying the ring when he's so much stronger than the halfling?".

It's the Witch-King's POV, if he is citing Aragorn as a "great power", with the entire scenario being a "peril to his life", then we can very readily assume Aragorn is comparable to the Witch-King

It's still an anti-feat on that front too, it's just the only one and scaling in speed to the Nazgul isn't something as egregious as AP.

It can't be seperated from AP, as Anduril makes it so that your stance doesn't work. If Aragorn is purely unable to fight the Balrog due to AP, then he has Anduril to easily kill it for him.

Generally, although this is often inconsistent, resistance to heat stuff is tied to durability somewhat.

I believe heat resistance is currently treated as a hax, just like electricity or cold.

Regardless, this is burning up from being in the presence of a fire spirit, not burning from an attack from a fire spirit. Gandalf is equal, if not stronger than a Balrog, but still ends up burned by his flames

"‘Long I fell, and he fell with me. His fire was about me. I was burned..."

 

[Armorchompy]

Then this is a speed anti-feat if anything.

I mean fair enough, I'll take back the speed stuff.

We don't really know their state, beyond them being able enough to continue fighting. The Nazgul can be taken to have some degree of healing factors, but that's for the ability revision, and this is a side-topic.

They're just invulnerable to most attacks, I don't know if they really ever show that. Not that it matters given that he just used fire, not weapons. Hell we don't even know if he properly fought them, they might just have left the second they actually met opposition.

It's the Witch-King's POV, if he is citing Aragorn as a "great power", with the entire scenario being a "peril to his life", then we can very readily assume Aragorn is comparable to the Witch-King

"[the Witch-King], the great captain, was actually dismayed. He had been shaken by the fire of Gandalf, and began to perceive that the mission on which Sauron had sent him was one of great peril to himself both by the way, and on his return to his Master (if unsuccessful); and he had been doing ill, so far achieving nothing save rousing the power of the Wise and directing them to the Ring. But above all the timid and terrified Bearer had resisted him, had dared to strike at him with an enchanted sword made by his own enemies long ago for his destruction. Narrowly it has missed him. [...] Escaping a wound that would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor-knife to Frodo (as was proved in the end) he withdrew and hid for a while, out of doubt and fear both of Aragorn and especially of Frodo. But fear of Sauron, and the forces of Sauron's will was the stronger."

Nowhere does it actually connect that the power is what he's afraid of. The "peril to himself" were Gandalf, and then Frodo. Aragorn is just someone he was afraid of, presumable because of the fire. Hell it makes it pretty clear that part of what scared him the most was that Frodo had managed to resist him.

 

[Tyranno223]

They're just invulnerable to most attacks, I don't know if they really ever show that. Not that it matters given that he just used fire, not weapons. Hell we don't even know if he properly fought them, they might just have left the second they actually met opposition.

I'll drop this topic from my end, as it is ultimately a side one.

"[the Witch-King], the great captain, was actually dismayed. He had been shaken by the fire of Gandalf, and began to perceive that the mission on which Sauron had sent him was one of great peril to himself both by the way, and on his return to his Master (if unsuccessful); and he had been doing ill, so far achieving nothing save rousing the power of the Wise and directing them to the Ring. But above all the timid and terrified Bearer had resisted him, had dared to strike at him with an enchanted sword made by his own enemies long ago for his destruction. Narrowly it has missed him. [...] Escaping a wound that would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor-knife to Frodo (as was proved in the end) he withdrew and hid for a while, out of doubt and fear both of Aragorn and especially of Frodo. But fear of Sauron, and the forces of Sauron's will was the stronger."

Nowhere does it actually connect that the power is what he's afraid of. The "peril to himself" were Gandalf, and then Frodo. Aragorn is just someone he was afraid of, presumable because of the fire. Hell it makes it pretty clear that part of what scared him the most was that Frodo had managed to resist him.

"The camp is attacked by night by five Riders; but they are driven off by Aragorn; and withdraw after wounding Frodo. The Witch-King now knows who is the Bearer, and is greatly puzzled that it should be a small creature, and not Aragorn, who seems to be a great power though apparently 'only a Ranger'. But the Bearer has been marked with the Knife and (he thinks) cannot last more than a day or two."

• Note: I admittedly misremembered the grammar here, but the use of "apparently" here still ends in the same result. A great power but apparently only a ranger is noting both Aragorn as powerful, but also seemingly of low rank. An especially notable thing, as the Witch-King had only recently destroyed an entire garrison of rangers

"It is a strange thing that the camp was not watched while darkness lasted of the night Oct. 6-7, and the crossing of the Road into the southward lands seems not to have been observed, so that the Witch-king again lost track of the Ring. For this there were probably several reasons, the least to be expected being the most important, namely that [the Witch-King], the great captain, was actually dismayed. He had been shaken by the fire of Gandalf, and began to perceive that the mission on which Sauron had sent him was one of great peril to himself both by the way, and on his return to his Master (if unsuccessful); and he had been doing ill, so far achieving nothing save rousing the power of the Wise and directing them to the Ring. But above all the timid and terrified Bearer had resisted him, had dared to strike at him with an enchanted sword made by his own enemies long ago for his destruction. Narrowly it has missed him. How he had come by it - save in the Barrows of Cardolan. Then he was in some way mightier than the Barrow-Wight; and he called on Elbereth, a name of terror to the Nazgûl. He was the in league with the High Elves of the Havens.

Escaping a wound that would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor-knife to Frodo (as was proved in the end) he withdrew and hid for a while, out of doubt and fear both of Aragorn and especially of Frodo. But fear of Sauron, and the forces of Sauron's will was the stronger."

It's the collective statement which allows this.

Aragorn is mentioned twice only. The first time is when he notes Aragorn as powerful. The second time is when he notes that he fears Aragorn. Thus we come to the logical conclusion of Aragorn being feared due to his power. Unlike with Frodo, there is no secondary reasoning present here In fact, it's much like with Gandalf, where the only thing noted is how dangerous Aragorn is.

 

[Antvasima]

So have you reached any compromise agreements here already?

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

I'll drop this topic from my end, as it is ultimately a side one.


"The camp is attacked by night by five Riders; but they are driven off by Aragorn; and withdraw after wounding Frodo. The Witch-King now knows who is the Bearer, and is greatly puzzled that it should be a small creature, and not Aragorn, who seems to be a great power though apparently 'only a Ranger'. But the Bearer has been marked with the Knife and (he thinks) cannot last more than a day or two."

• Note: I admittedly misremembered the grammar here, but the use of "apparently" here still ends in the same result. A great power but apparently only a ranger is noting both Aragorn as powerful, but also seemingly of low rank. An especially notable thing, as the Witch-King had only recently destroyed an entire garrison of rangers

"It is a strange thing that the camp was not watched while darkness lasted of the night Oct. 6-7, and the crossing of the Road into the southward lands seems not to have been observed, so that the Witch-king again lost track of the Ring. For this there were probably several reasons, the least to be expected being the most important, namely that [the Witch-King], the great captain, was actually dismayed. He had been shaken by the fire of Gandalf, and began to perceive that the mission on which Sauron had sent him was one of great peril to himself both by the way, and on his return to his Master (if unsuccessful); and he had been doing ill, so far achieving nothing save rousing the power of the Wise and directing them to the Ring. But above all the timid and terrified Bearer had resisted him, had dared to strike at him with an enchanted sword made by his own enemies long ago for his destruction. Narrowly it has missed him. How he had come by it - save in the Barrows of Cardolan. Then he was in some way mightier than the Barrow-Wight; and he called on Elbereth, a name of terror to the Nazgûl. He was the in league with the High Elves of the Havens.

Escaping a wound that would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor-knife to Frodo (as was proved in the end) he withdrew and hid for a while, out of doubt and fear both of Aragorn and especially of Frodo. But fear of Sauron, and the forces of Sauron's will was the stronger."

It's the collective statement which allows this.

Aragorn is mentioned twice only. The first time is when he notes Aragorn as powerful. The second time is when he notes that he fears Aragorn. Thus we come to the logical conclusion of Aragorn being feared due to his power. Unlike with Frodo, there is no secondary reasoning present here In fact, it's much like with Gandalf, where the only thing noted is how dangerous Aragorn is.

I'm willing to let this sway me to the side of high-tier Aragorn. That and it's consistent with his direct ancestor going toe-to-toe with Sauron.

 

[Tyranno223]

So have you reached any compromise agreements here already?

Not really. Armor and I are still on opposing sides regarding this Aragorn's scaling.

Armor and Bambu have disagreed, although Bambu hasn't been commenting as much recently.

DarkDragonMedeus agreed

Beyond the staff, NaturalDestroyer seems to have flipped to my side of the argument as well.

 

[Dinamic8000]

Hey, sorry for being late in the discussion (Like always), but i agree totaly with Aragorn AP using Andúril

I understand someone who just read The Lord of Rings being surprised by this scaling, but if you adventure yourself throught the Silmarillion you will notice this makes sense, like Tyranno said, Aragorn isn't even a pure man (Technically, he have 1/1000's maiar blood), he is narratively the link between the third age and the heroes from the legends

Of course, in the end he is still attached to human logic, he couldn't wiped out an orc army in one blow cause his range is the same of any other warrior

OFF TOPIC: One LOTR game that perfectly encapsulates that is "The Lord of the Rings: The Battle for Middle-earth II", it depiction of the Battle of Dale is canon in my heart

He without Andúril is A LOT more trickier not gonna lie, with statements being the main argument for it. I would like to wait Armor response to Tyranno before saying anything definite, but i'm inclined to agree with that too

The only thing in his profile i think is good to emphasize is his speed being the combat speed, because otherwise yeah, it would contradict an narrative where Tolkien wanted to show all characters moving like regular real life troops and soldiers

 

[Antvasima]

Not really. Armor and I are still on opposing sides regarding this Aragorn's scaling.

Armor and Bambu have disagreed, although Bambu hasn't been commenting as much recently.

DarkDragonMedeus agreed

Beyond the staff, NaturalDestroyer seems to have flipped to my side of the argument as well.

Well, Armorchompy and Bambu seemed to make sense to me, but maybe we can use "possibly higher" or "likely higher" as a compromise solution here, as I think was suggested earlier?

 

[Armorchompy]

Aragorn is mentioned twice only. The first time is when he notes Aragorn as powerful. The second time is when he notes that he fears Aragorn. Thus we come to the logical conclusion of Aragorn being feared due to his power. Unlike with Frodo, there is no secondary reasoning present here In fact, it's much like with Gandalf, where the only thing noted is how dangerous Aragorn is.

I get that, but also Aragorn literally only used fire as far as we can tell, so it'd make sense to think that's what they were afraid of.

Not to mention, Nazgul are immune to normal weapons so even if he were at their level he couldn't hurt them anyways: "'Look!' he cried; and stooping he lifted from the ground a black cloak that had lain there hidden by the darkness. A foot above the lower hem there was a slash. “This was the stroke of Frodo’s sword,” he said. “The only hurt that it did to his enemy I fear; for it is unharmed, but all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King."

This is Aragorn himself saying this, after his fight with the Nazgul. This basically confirms that he failed to hurt any of them. With that being set in stone then I think the simplest interpretation is that the fire is what they feared.

Nobody's questioning Anduril's scaling btw, I have no issues with it.

 

[Experiment12]

Bamboo and Armor's "Maybe" argument seemed logical enough.

What I got from some references, yes, when Isildur cut off Sauron's finger and released his ring, it didn't affect Sauron at all, because Sauron himself was reliable against his Ring, this would not make Aragorn equal to Sauron, as well as the Balrog.

As I remember about the Witch King, they can only be killed by Women, that's Eown. Maybe it's called danger, because Aragorn is descended from the previous King of Gondor who killed Sauron, so it's no wonder why he is afraid, in these words it's not about strength but the great name of a previous king.

 

[Hellbeast]

As I remember about the Witch King, they can only be killed by Women, that's Eown. Maybe it's called danger, because Aragorn is descended from the previous King of Gondor who killed Sauron, so it's no wonder why he is afraid, in these words it's not about strength but the great name of a previous king.

No, it's because Merry's sword from the Barrowdowns broke the enchantment around the WK

 

[Tyranno223]

I get that, but also Aragorn literally only used fire as far as we can tell, so it'd make sense to think that's what they were afraid of.

Again, fire is never mentioned in the POV of the Witch-King

Not to mention, Nazgul are immune to normal weapons so even if he were at their level he couldn't hurt them anyways: "'Look!' he cried; and stooping he lifted from the ground a black cloak that had lain there hidden by the darkness. A foot above the lower hem there was a slash. “This was the stroke of Frodo’s sword,” he said. “The only hurt that it did to his enemy I fear; for it is unharmed, but all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King."

This is Aragorn himself saying this, after his fight with the Nazgul. This basically confirms that he failed to hurt any of them. With that being set in stone then I think the simplest interpretation is that the fire is what they feared.

Yes, but this isn't relevant. Aragorn's power is being feared by the Witch-King. Fire is almost certainly a core reason why they were ultimately driven off, but fire alone isn't enough! Otherwise, the Dunedain at Sarn Ford would have beaten the Nazgul (unless skilled rangers don't carry torches at night) and Gandalf would have won at Weathertop!

 

[Tyranno223]

Well, Armorchompy and Bambu seemed to make sense to me, but maybe we can use "possibly higher" or "likely higher" as a compromise solution here, as I think was suggested earlier?

I'm still very much against it. Bambu hasn't commented in a while since my last rebuttal, and Armor and my disagreement's do seem to be gradually narrowing down to a few points.

Dinamic, another knowledgeable member, seems to also support my position as well. NaturalDestroyer too (although they haven't put themselves down in the list yet)

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

I'm still very much against it. Bambu hasn't commented in a while since my last rebuttal, and Armor and my disagreement's do seem to be gradually narrowing down to a few points.

Dinamic, another knowledgeable member, seems to also support my position as well. NaturalDestroyer too (although they haven't put themselves down in the list yet)

I would be in the list if I had the technical know-how haha

 

[Tyranno223]

I would be in the list if I had the technical know-how haha

You've been a tremendous help in the revisions! Both you and Merchant pushed the Dragon changes that I was originally against.

Plus there was the Silmaril stuff! I'd say you've been one of the biggest supporters lately.

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

You've been a tremendous help in the revisions! Both you and Merchant pushed the Dragon changes that I was originally against.

Plus there was the Silmaril stuff! I'd say you've been one of the biggest supporters lately.

Thanks! I appreciate that. I've been meaning to put myself on the Knowledgeable Members list after Ant's invitation, but I couldn't figure out how to do it.

 

[Armorchompy]

Again, fire is never mentioned in the POV of the Witch-King

That doesn't counter what I said.

Yes, but this isn't relevant. Aragorn's power is being feared by the Witch-King. Fire is almost certainly a core reason why they were ultimately driven off, but fire alone isn't enough! Otherwise, the Dunedain at Sarn Ford would have beaten the Nazgul (unless skilled rangers don't carry torches at night) and Gandalf would have won at Weathertop!

Aragorn just used it better than them then, idk what to tell you, but he thinks they can't be harmed with weapons so clearly he didn't use weapons to any effect and unless you're telling me he just started throwing hands there isn't anything else he could have done.

 

[Tyranno223]

That doesn't counter what I said.

It's the Witch-King's own POV, he would note fire if that was the main cause

Aragorn just used it better than them then, idk what to tell you, but he thinks they can't be harmed with weapons so clearly he didn't use weapons to any effect and unless you're telling me he just started throwing hands there isn't anything else he could have done.

There was an entire group of Dunedain, if fire was the deciding factor, there would not have been an issue, especially since Aragorn was just one guy

 

[Armorchompy]

It's the Witch-King's own POV, he would note fire if that was the main cause

Not necessarily. It's an assumption but so it "he's afraid of his power". And I've argued why I think it's preferable already.

There was an entire group of Dunedain, if fire was the deciding factor, there would not have been an issue, especially since Aragorn was just one guy

Ok, so what DID he do? Cause we know for sure that even if he did use weapons he could do no damage with it, so you tell me what he did.

There's also the fact that against Gandalf or the Dunedain, the Nazgul hadn't accomplished their task, while against Aragorn they did. For all we know they immediately ****** off.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Huh, I was under the impression this thread just went stagnant for these past couple days. I stopped receiving notifications.

I could slop together a rather large wall in response to the discussion so far, but...

A. Armor has been doing a better job than I would with going into the book to get proof of his claims.

B. As Tyrranno said, this has been circular for awhile. He's repeating himself and it's the same stuff that didn't convince me before.

I would like to note that people are stating "well if you read the Silmarillon it'd make sense", which is hardly an argument at all. Nobody here has been unaware that Aragorn isn't just a guy, the argument is that his scaling doesn't actually put him as high as maiar and balrogs and his feats are rather shady. It is likely to come to a vote soon, so I will say that I would agree with the compromise of scaling Aragorn to well above the Uruks and leaving a "possibly far higher", mentioning that he has a few other statements that may place him higher.

 

[Tyranno223]

Not necessarily. It's an assumption but so it "he's afraid of his power". And I've argued why I think it's preferable already.

It's quite literally the only reason Tolkien gives us as to why the Witch-King would be afraid from his own POV. Again, fire is not mentioned from his own POV

Ok, so what DID he do? Cause we know for sure that even if he did use weapons he could do no damage with it, so you tell me what he did.

I'm not denying fire was important! I'm saying it wasn't the sole reason! If a random Dunedain used fire against a Nazgul, it would be ineffective. Since Aragorn had the necessary might and speed, he was able to win.

Fire may be what enabled him to harm or at least drive them off, but he needs to be strong enough to do so! In comparison an entire group of Dunedain, warriors above most of humanity during this era, failed to delay them for long.

There's also the fact that against Gandalf or the Dunedain, the Nazgul hadn't accomplished their task

They blatantly did with the Dunedain, but both points are ultimately secondary

, while against Aragorn they did. For all we know they immediately ****** off.

They failed, stabbing the Ringbearer was not their goal. Their goal was to capture him, which they immediately tried to do, after regrouping as the collective Nine, not just five of the Nine.

If anything, that is further proof of Aragorn's strength, as they felt the need to regroup into their full number to capture the Ringbearer.

B. As Tyrranno said, this has been circular for awhile. He's repeating himself and it's the same stuff that didn't convince me before.

Well we were leaving it at a vote, but at this point it's just come down to the Witch-King point between me and Armor.

For the record:

Agree:
Me
Dinamic
DDM
NaturalDestroyer

Compromies:
Hellbeast
Ant

Disagree:
Armor
Bambu

If it comes down to votes, agree is currently winning.

 

[Ped2018]

If it comes down to votes, agree is currently winning

Brother, blue names votes don't matter much if we're being real.

 

[Tyranno223]

Brother, blue names votes don't matter much if we're being real.

It's knowledgeables, so they should.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

For the record:

Agree:
Me
Dinamic
DDM
NaturalDestroyer

Compromies:
Hellbeast
Ant

Disagree:
Armor
Bambu

If it comes down to votes, agree is currently winning.

Not so. Knowledgeable members are listened to but they do not decide the outcome of CRTs. If it comes down to a vote, Disagree is leading slightly over Compromise.

 

[Tyranno223]

Not so. Knowledgeable members are listened to but they do not decide the outcome of CRTs. If it comes down to a vote, Disagree is leading slightly over Compromise.

Really? I assumed the people who started the revision would at least have the right to have some sway. That's disillusioning.

That being said, three knowledgeable users disagreeing and none agreeing honestly should see some consideration.

 

[Tyranno223]

Regardless, it's only really come down to the point of whether Armor and I can agree on the Witch-King. Everything else has been resolved more or less.

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

Inb4 5-C Boromir for trying to help Gandalf fight the Balrog