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Great. Also added immeasurable speed before I could forget again.
I believe the page can be locked now then.
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Lord of the Rings revisions
- Thread starter Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan
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I believe the page can be locked now then.
Experiment12
Username Only- 263
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Excuse me, do we have to discuss Abstract Existence type 1 Ainur which I proposed at that time?
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Finished all the currently agreed changes.
For example, in the Silmarillion: VALAQUENTA
Manwë is the "Lord of the Breath of Arda", Ulmo is the "Lord of Waters", and Aulë is the Lord of the Earth
Across the texts, examples of their domain do not suggest that they so much as embody their concepts, so much as control them. The Valar are specifically said to have "a command, great individually, almost complete as a united council, over the physical material of Eä (the material universe)." in The Nature of Middle-Earth (NOME) and other texts, and this seems to be specifically the case.
Regarding NOME, it says this under the "Powers of the Valar".
"The Valar, however, had of course far greater power over their material. Not only had they enormously greater force of will, scope of mind, and subtlety of skill, but they had complete understanding of the erma and of the structure of its variations, since they had themselves (under Eru) designed and brought about these variations, and their combinations. Or rather, among them all such knowledge was to be found; for individually they had possessed from their own creation, and had shown in their assistance in the designing of Eä, different talents, and each of them possessed some skill or knowledge of his or her own."
"The Eldar believed that “spirits”, and the more so as they had greater inherent native powers, could “emit” their influence to make contact with or act upon things exterior to themselves: primarily and most easily upon other spirits, or upon the fëar of Incarnates; but also in the case of the greater Máyar (of whom the Valar were the chief) directly upon physical things without the mediacy of corporeal instruments. [fn2] [6] This direct action upon things was held to be quite different from direct calling of attention from other spirits. The latter was a natural operation within one mode of being, it being of the nature of spirits to be aware of one another. The former was an exhalation of dominance of one mode over another; and according to the Eldar all exertions of dominance make demands upon those who exert the power – something of their “spirit” is expelled, and transferred to the thing in a lower mode. Hence all tyrants slowly consume themselves, or transfer their power to things, and can only control it so long as they can [?possess or control the thing with its?] but power is dissipated. So Morgoth had become in fact less powerful than the other Valar, and much of his native power had passed into things [?? diminished?] Hence his malice could live on after his extrusion. The words used to describe this action or emission of “power” were derived (apparently) by analogy from emission of breath, and such physical phenomena as breathing upon frost (which melts). In addition Manwë, who was held to be Lord of Air and Winds, was the most powerful of the Valar in this respect, and the most powerful spirit in Arda. "
Other stuff exists like with the Silmarillion: VALAQUENTA saying that the
"the spirit of Ulmo runs in all the veins of the world."
or
"Uinen, the Lady of the Seas, whose hair lies spread through all waters under sky..." (this could do with a calc).
But these could either reflect their conceptual existence, or just suggest that they spirit or some physical form of theirs is literally inhabiting the waters (Yavanna in the same chapter is sometimes said to have been seen "standing like a tree under heaven, crowned with the Sun; and from all its branches there spilled a golden dew upon the barren earth, and it grew green with corn..." Meaning their physical forms need not be animals or humanoids).
Abstract Existence is something I've had a brief look at. It would only apply to their keys "Within the confines of Eä" but its possibilities are actually quite... iffy, but still there. A lot of the current examples I have found regarding the Ainur seem to suggest that they don't so much as embody concepts, but rather rule over them.
For example, in the Silmarillion: VALAQUENTA
Manwë is the "Lord of the Breath of Arda", Ulmo is the "Lord of Waters", and Aulë is the Lord of the Earth
Across the texts, examples of their domain do not suggest that they so much as embody their concepts, so much as control them. The Valar are specifically said to have "a command, great individually, almost complete as a united council, over the physical material of Eä (the material universe)." in The Nature of Middle-Earth (NOME) and other texts, and this seems to be specifically the case.
Regarding NOME, it says this under the "Powers of the Valar".
"The Valar, however, had of course far greater power over their material. Not only had they enormously greater force of will, scope of mind, and subtlety of skill, but they had complete understanding of the erma and of the structure of its variations, since they had themselves (under Eru) designed and brought about these variations, and their combinations. Or rather, among them all such knowledge was to be found; for individually they had possessed from their own creation, and had shown in their assistance in the designing of Eä, different talents, and each of them possessed some skill or knowledge of his or her own."
This case suggests nothing of them embodying concepts, so much as designing and dominating the concepts they are seen as lords/ladies of (further support for concept manipulation for the future abilities revision I suppose).
However, there are some contrary examples. This long passage below from NOME under "XIII: Spirit" notes the Ainur as influencing things in a potential. I highlighted the important stuff again."The Eldar believed that “spirits”, and the more so as they had greater inherent native powers, could “emit” their influence to make contact with or act upon things exterior to themselves: primarily and most easily upon other spirits, or upon the fëar of Incarnates; but also in the case of the greater Máyar (of whom the Valar were the chief) directly upon physical things without the mediacy of corporeal instruments. [fn2] [6] This direct action upon things was held to be quite different from direct calling of attention from other spirits. The latter was a natural operation within one mode of being, it being of the nature of spirits to be aware of one another. The former was an exhalation of dominance of one mode over another; and according to the Eldar all exertions of dominance make demands upon those who exert the power – something of their “spirit” is expelled, and transferred to the thing in a lower mode. Hence all tyrants slowly consume themselves, or transfer their power to things, and can only control it so long as they can [?possess or control the thing with its?] but power is dissipated. So Morgoth had become in fact less powerful than the other Valar, and much of his native power had passed into things [?? diminished?] Hence his malice could live on after his extrusion. The words used to describe this action or emission of “power” were derived (apparently) by analogy from emission of breath, and such physical phenomena as breathing upon frost (which melts). In addition Manwë, who was held to be Lord of Air and Winds, was the most powerful of the Valar in this respect, and the most powerful spirit in Arda. "
I posted the long paragraph as the whole thing is honestly rather informative. For instance, the cause of weakness of Melkor partly came from the fact he intruded and attempted to dominate concepts that were not naturally under his control.
But the important thing is that for Manwë and the other Ainur, the manipulation of their domain is more akin to a bodily function. The employment of the concepts they hold dominion over are seen as akin to breathing. This kinda suggests they might be conceptual? Idk.
Other stuff exists like with the Silmarillion: VALAQUENTA saying that the
"the spirit of Ulmo runs in all the veins of the world."
or
"Uinen, the Lady of the Seas, whose hair lies spread through all waters under sky..." (this could do with a calc).
But these could either reflect their conceptual existence, or just suggest that they spirit or some physical form of theirs is literally inhabiting the waters (Yavanna in the same chapter is sometimes said to have been seen "standing like a tree under heaven, crowned with the Sun; and from all its branches there spilled a golden dew upon the barren earth, and it grew green with corn..." Meaning their physical forms need not be animals or humanoids).
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I am finishing up the last of my Finals soon, so I can't provide much of an answer beyond this ambiguous response right now.
Hellbeast
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I remember collecting lore for that so I'd be happy to network with you on that (much simpler scaling too)
Damn Low 1-C Sauron is a thing
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It would be worth looking into at least. I have a bunch of the pdfs so I could give them a look after I'm no longer busy.
It's kinda funny since I was originally arguing against even Low 1-C Eru. Bigger numbers are fun though.
Hellbeast
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Like I said last time, MERP is based off a pre-existing magic system, so there's some hax and stuff you'd have to look through seperately. We can probably continue discussing this in the discussion thread.
Experiment12
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Is it time to discuss Type Conceptual Manipulation for Ainur?
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It's a general revision thread, so I'm just preparing my next revision. Not sure about the others.
No current changes necessary.
I plan on addressing those kinds of abilities in one go. The Ainur and Eru have a fair bit.
The discussion thread is a good place for me to share my opinions on abilities.
Ped2018
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Isn't better to open another crt then?
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No need. It's a general revision thread, meaning you can just input new ideas as it goes along. Although it will need to be closed once it gets too long I suppose.
There's also not really a dedicated united effort to necessitate a new thread.
Ped2018
He/Him- 4,609
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It's already too long.
There aren't many supporters, yes, but this long thread kills any interest in people to participate.
Also, there's users who probably aren't aware of the discussion thread, but i'm not sure if you already gave the link in this thread.
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I did suggest making a new thread a while back, but the consensus was to keep this one. That was a page or two back.
Other revision threads of this kind already exist.
I did indeed. You can also pretty easily find it by clicking or pressing the tab. There isn't much interest overall though.
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Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan began the thread. He has had some further input in the last few pages.
Hellbeast has had repeated inputs. He seems to be interested in revising the Shadow of Mordor/War series in particular.
TheMerchant66 as well, I believe he was recently proposing a re-calc which Experiment was going to look into.
Experiment12 has had repeated inputs. His proposals have helped out with the abilities in particular. Timing and communication difficulties aside.
There's me as well.
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Thank you. How would I let you know? Do I send a message on your profile or here?
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Also, since Ped2018 pointed it out, I'll post the discussion link again.
Experiment12
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So this thread is closed and where will it go? One more question why will it be closed?
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This can be closed now.
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