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Lord of the Rings Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Tyranno223
- Start date
- 3,461
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- #562
Probably not, although they do make stars and planets.
Pre-Eä, their singing quite literally made new ones arise according to their imagination and lessons under Eru. These could oppose or destroy Concepts if opposing ones exist as did occur in the struggle between Melkor's discourse and the faithful music. The second an Ainu begins singing, their desired concepts would become extant and the Song would destroy/overpower opposing or undesired ones.
Alternatively, if the opposing ones clash and are not overpowered, new ones can form (like frost from Ulmo's Water and Melkor's Fire).
Presumably they can also manipulate Concepts with an exertion of will (as they do later), although whether they can destroy them with this method is unknown.
Post-Eä it's more ambiguous but also more underwhelming as they seemingly can't destroy Concepts due to their diminishing. Ainur can manipulate theirs to a certain effect, for example Manwë manipulating the Winds to blow by exerting his influence over his domain (for example, to blow winds that contain his spirit to subdue enemies). Alternatively Ulmo uses his command over water to hear all news from events that take place near or in waters. They essentially just have a great command over concepts, with Ainur having no known limit in regards to their own Concept (although NLF don't assume they can do everything) and being able to even control other ones (although this requires an investment of power).
Songs of Power are also rather ambiguous. Effects take place according to what is sung, but nothing too dramatic is ever really done, although Luthien (and Galadriel is implied) do use it do deconstruct fortifications and fortresses. The Song duel between Sauron and Finrod for instance saw Sauron sing about the disguises of Finrod's party to come undone while Finrod sang about them remaining in place and there was an exchange of power as the two exerted their will onto the other(s). It has ambiguous limits, but likely the limit is the user's own power (hence Sauron winning due to his immense power despite Finrod being powerful himself).
Words of Command we know barely anything about. Gandalf speaks a commanding sentence and the desired effect happens. For instance, cold and wet wood becomes alight when Gandalf commands them to become alight. That being said, it has limits as he can not command fire to appear out of thin-air for example.
Hsharpe
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Well explained. But now I have another question (there are so many I have but I'll be slow with em
). Do the Valar have Resistance to their own BFR and Sealing? Or at least BFR and Sealing in general?
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- #564
For BFR, I plan to add Dimensional Travelling to the Pre-Eä (which'll be High 1-A+ anyway if all goes well). They can also manipulate and open dimensional walls currently in Post-Eä. There's many types of BFR anyway (something like knocking them into space is meaningless). The BFR of the Valar is done by literally pushing someone out through the Doors of Night and slamming the door on them. They can't really resist their own. Manwë might get his own BFR which he does by blowing them out of the universe (likely through the Doors) and it's done his own wind.Well explained. But now I have another question (there are so many I have but I'll be slow with em
Sealing, not really unless it can be overcome by Dimensional travel or incorporeality. If Goku does a Mafuba on Tulkas for example, he might get out by abandoning his body or something.
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Hsharpe
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I have cooked a Death Battle, and I shall give it to you all for your viewing
deathbattlefanon.fandom.com
Morgoth VS. Cyn (Tolkien VS Murder Drones)
Melkor/Morgoth - The Silmarillion Cyn - Murder Drones Boomstick: Morgoth, the First Dark Lord and Master of Sauron! Wiz: And Cyn, the First Host of the Absolute Solver! Boomstick: Where there is good, there is evil! Where there is light, there is darkness! Where there is order, there is chaos...
deathbattlefanon.fandom.com
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I dig it! I will say that when Morgoth's stats were lowest (aka when he's weak enough that Cyn might be able to hurt him) he was no longer capable of shedding his physical form and reconstituting it at all because he'd invested too much of himself into Middle Earth. But this was a great fight, good calcs, and even in his weakest form Morgoth does brutally outspeed.I have cooked a Death Battle, and I shall give it to you all for your viewing
Morgoth VS. Cyn (Tolkien VS Murder Drones)
Melkor/Morgoth - The Silmarillion Cyn - Murder Drones Boomstick: Morgoth, the First Dark Lord and Master of Sauron! Wiz: And Cyn, the First Host of the Absolute Solver! Boomstick: Where there is good, there is evil! Where there is light, there is darkness! Where there is order, there is chaos...
Hsharpe
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Nice hearing your review and takeaway. I will admit, I feel like I was a little too generous to Morgoth on that part, but I do feel like I didn’t do enough for both characters, and I did actually plan on making the fight much longer than it currently is, but I was burnt out and kinda gave up a bit. Though overall, if you were to rate it 1 to 10, what would it be?
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It was a solid 9 for me overall. It was well written, which is already leaps and bounds above most other fights on the DB fanon wiki!
Hsharpe
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Glad to hear. I also threw a little Wizard of Oz reference in there if you didn’t notice it yet.
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Hsharpe
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- #573
Talk about relationship goals.BROOOO
Hsharpe
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Speaking of which, do you think we can try using the 1 Valian Year = 144 Solar Years to measure Fingolfin and Fëanor’s ages so we can then apply those to their profiles?
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- #575
Probably, but I'm not really too worried about ages right now.
Hsharpe
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Decided to quickly calculate Fingolfin and Fëanor's ages
Fëanor
Fëanor was first born in YT 1169, and died in YT 1497. So that makes a total of 328 Valian Years lived. Math for it provided…
1497 - 1169 = 328.
One Valian Year is 144 Solar Years. So multiply 328 by that…
328 x 144 = 47,232
Therefore, Fëanor is around 47,232 Solar Years old.
Fingolfin
Fingolfin was born in YT 1190, and the Year of the Trees ended at 1500. This’ll be excluding the Years of the Sun for now, but we’ll get to that. So…
1500 - 1190 = 310
With that, we can then multiply it by 144, which gives us...
310 x 144 = 44,640
With that done, we can move on. Fingolfin died in the Year of the Sun F.A 456, so…
44,640 + 456 = 45,096
Therefore, Fingolfin is 45,096 Solar Years old.
Fëanor
Fëanor was first born in YT 1169, and died in YT 1497. So that makes a total of 328 Valian Years lived. Math for it provided…
1497 - 1169 = 328.
One Valian Year is 144 Solar Years. So multiply 328 by that…
328 x 144 = 47,232
Therefore, Fëanor is around 47,232 Solar Years old.
Fingolfin
Fingolfin was born in YT 1190, and the Year of the Trees ended at 1500. This’ll be excluding the Years of the Sun for now, but we’ll get to that. So…
1500 - 1190 = 310
With that, we can then multiply it by 144, which gives us...
310 x 144 = 44,640
With that done, we can move on. Fingolfin died in the Year of the Sun F.A 456, so…
44,640 + 456 = 45,096
Therefore, Fingolfin is 45,096 Solar Years old.
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- #577
Huh... this implies they'd be in the "Mature" life stage from NoME. That doesn't quite makes sense since they were meant to be in their prime. Although the Silmarillion does alternatively imply the waning starts after a million years but that has its own issues.
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- #578
Lord of the Rings general revision thread: Return of the Thread
Do you think Fingolfin will ever get Rage Power? (cuz of his Rage Aura and whatnot) He doesn't seem to get any actual power from his rage if memory serves me correctly, but he'd probably get some Fear Manipulation considering everything that saw him was terrified.
Ok, it's done. That was tiresome.
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- #579
While stuff brews in the background, what would people prefer me to focus on next?
The Istari or The Nazgûl?
The Istari or The Nazgûl?
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The Istari would be higher priority from a website traffic perspective, I wager
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My understanding is that temptation is very different from wresting away the agency of a sapient being. The Ring influenced people, certainly, but it never actively took away their ability to choose
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- #583
It bypasses it by getting their consent. The barrier of unwill is precisely that, a barrier if you are unwilling. But the One Ring is so seductive that you voluntarily surrender.
A lot of LotR mind hax is actually more dangerous than one might expect as it's often in conjunction with genuine convincing.
I really should look into Social Influencing more once I get to Sauron. Actually Saruman as well.
Makes sense. It probably won't be too interesting unfortunately. Probably not that different from the High Elves (minus Gandalf the White).
I'll need to consider whether Saruman gets Gandalf’s abilities or not.
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- #585
Entry into the mind. Anything that involves that.
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I expect they'd be broadly similar, although they did have different specialties. Saruman might not get Fire Manip to the same degree, for example, and he was certainly more skilled with machinery and production of magical artifacts.
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- #587
Yeah, he'd get some measure of construction and social influencing (really good social influencing). Not sure what else.
Gandalf the Grey explicitly knows a lot of spells, but I'd need to check if Saruman is compared to him.
He'd probably at least get stuff like Words of Command.
Hsharpe
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I remembered a statement that the One Ring could govern the thoughts of the wearers of the other Rings. Could it bypass the barrier of unwill through the same exact way you stated? And also, were the Dwarves resistant to the One Ring because of the barrier or also because of something else?
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- #589
The One Ring can govern the thoughts of those who wear the Ring because they consensually wear the other Rings, at least that's how I view it. The Elven ones didn't work for this purpose since:
- They're not made by his hand and were a bit more independent
- The Elves realised Sauron's intent the second he made the One Ring and took theirs off.
Dwarves aren't specially resistant to the One Ring, they're resistant to all Rings. This is because of their natural resistance to Corruption and their stubborn nature. But Rings still do affect them. Usually amplifying their negative traits like greed.
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- #591
For the Pre-Eä key, as I noted above, yes.
For Post-Eä entry, probably not. They can make use of concepts and influence them, but there's no recorded instance of them creating or destroying concepts anymore. Although I might need to check that to be sure.
Hsharpe
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Also I feel like the Ainur could theoretically get Resistance to Immortality and Regen Negation since only Eru can destroy them. More detailed below.
It is stated that none save Eru only can destroy any of the race of the Valar:
"Melkor was led captive, bound hand and foot and blindfold; and he was brought to the Ring of Doom. There he lay upon his face before the feet of Manwe, and he sued for pardon and freedom, recalling his kinship with Manwe. But his prayer was denied, and it is said that in that hour the Valar would fain have put him to death. But death none can deal to any of the race of the Valar, neither can any, save Eru only, remove them from Ea, the World that is, be they willing or unwilling. Therefore Manwe cast Melkor into prison, and he was shut in the fastness of Mandos, whence none can escape." - Morgoth's Ring: PART TWO. Third section of the Annals of Aman, 1100. The Chaining of Melkor
Melian, a Maia, was stated as being of the race of the Valar
"Melian was a Maia, of the race of the Valar. She dwelt in the gardens of Lorien, and among all his people there were none more beautiful than Melian, nor more wise, nor more skilled in songs of enchantment. It is told that the Valar would leave their works, and the birds of Valinor their mirth, that the bells of Valmar were silent and the fountains ceased to flow, when at the mingling of the lights Melian sang in Lorien." - The Silmarillion: Chapter 4, OF THINGOL AND MELIAN
"In those days Elves and Men were of like stature and strength of body, but the Elves had greater wisdom, and skill, and beauty; and those who had dwelt in Valinor and looked upon the Powers as much surpassed the Dark Elves in these things as they in turn surpassed the people of mortal race. Only in the realm of Doriath, whose queen Melian was of the kindred of Valar, did the Sindar come near to match the Calaquendi of the Blessed Realm." - The Silmarillion: Chapter 12, OF MEN
"For Melian was of the divine race of the Valar, and she was a Maia of great power and wisdom; but for love of Elwë Singollo she took upon herself the form of the Elder Children of Iluvatar, and in that union she became bound by the chain and trammels of the flesh of Arda. In that form she bore to him Lúthien Tinúviel; and in that form she gained a power over the substance of Arda, and by the Girdle of Melian was Doriath defended through long ages from the evils without." - The Silmarillion: Chapter 22, OF THE RUIN OF DORIATH
Therefore, the statement of none being able to kill the Valar, save Eru only, would apply to all Ainur, including Maiar.
It is stated that none save Eru only can destroy any of the race of the Valar:
"Melkor was led captive, bound hand and foot and blindfold; and he was brought to the Ring of Doom. There he lay upon his face before the feet of Manwe, and he sued for pardon and freedom, recalling his kinship with Manwe. But his prayer was denied, and it is said that in that hour the Valar would fain have put him to death. But death none can deal to any of the race of the Valar, neither can any, save Eru only, remove them from Ea, the World that is, be they willing or unwilling. Therefore Manwe cast Melkor into prison, and he was shut in the fastness of Mandos, whence none can escape." - Morgoth's Ring: PART TWO. Third section of the Annals of Aman, 1100. The Chaining of Melkor
Melian, a Maia, was stated as being of the race of the Valar
"Melian was a Maia, of the race of the Valar. She dwelt in the gardens of Lorien, and among all his people there were none more beautiful than Melian, nor more wise, nor more skilled in songs of enchantment. It is told that the Valar would leave their works, and the birds of Valinor their mirth, that the bells of Valmar were silent and the fountains ceased to flow, when at the mingling of the lights Melian sang in Lorien." - The Silmarillion: Chapter 4, OF THINGOL AND MELIAN
"In those days Elves and Men were of like stature and strength of body, but the Elves had greater wisdom, and skill, and beauty; and those who had dwelt in Valinor and looked upon the Powers as much surpassed the Dark Elves in these things as they in turn surpassed the people of mortal race. Only in the realm of Doriath, whose queen Melian was of the kindred of Valar, did the Sindar come near to match the Calaquendi of the Blessed Realm." - The Silmarillion: Chapter 12, OF MEN
"For Melian was of the divine race of the Valar, and she was a Maia of great power and wisdom; but for love of Elwë Singollo she took upon herself the form of the Elder Children of Iluvatar, and in that union she became bound by the chain and trammels of the flesh of Arda. In that form she bore to him Lúthien Tinúviel; and in that form she gained a power over the substance of Arda, and by the Girdle of Melian was Doriath defended through long ages from the evils without." - The Silmarillion: Chapter 22, OF THE RUIN OF DORIATH
Therefore, the statement of none being able to kill the Valar, save Eru only, would apply to all Ainur, including Maiar.
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- #593
This is already implicit with the verse-wide Resistance to Soul Manip, Immortality type 5, and the Notes on the Ainur page, but kinda, yeah. Tot regen negation though. That depends on their own reserves of strength.
But I'm waiting for the Tier 0 queue to move up to be our turn since that'll make them unkillable by anything due to being sustained by a tier 0. Only options being BFR, sealing, or just beating them to the point they're unable to do anything.
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- #595
I haven't given much thought to that since it kinda all becomes pointless when you're Tier 0.
BDE (Type 2) and AE (Type 1) I believe.
He doesn't possess Nonexistent Physiology, if anything He's the most extant thing possible. I don't know what Transduality Eru would have if He has any. Everything is what He is not and He is outside everything while at the same time being its source.
Hsharpe
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That sounds kinda like Type 3 Transduality. Definition for it is here:
"3. Plurality: Characters existing in a nondual state regarding all dual systems within an entire level of reality in a way that makes them exist beyond the classical states of contradiction-allowing logic, instead operating on a many-valued logic system with at least five truth values. Such characters occupy a state where they are neither A, nor not A, nor both A and not A, nor neither A nor not A, instead existing in a state one can't describe using simple combinations of A and not A. This type of nonduality immunizes the user against all attacks and haxes that scale to fewer logical states than the user." - Source
Not sure either though.
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What's the status on this? Has it been evaluated yet?
Hsharpe
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Not sure actually. Should I submit it in the revision thread and have the mods look it over?
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I think you could probably ask Ant about that, not sure if the screenshot itself would be evaluated.
Hsharpe
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Should I ping him?
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