Logic Manipulation should have its own page+Law Manipulation rewrite

[Eficiente]

I was going to express the opinion on this thread but I found it unneeded.

Logic Manip isn't necessarily Law Manip, resisting or ignoring one isn't necessarily the same as doing it with the other.

The description in the Law Manip page should at least be modified if Logic Manip isn't going to have its own page, including parts of what a Logic Manip page would have. No one would really know that a character with a power that is Logic Manip should have Law Manip based on the latter's page, you would need to have been in the wiki for a while to know that.

There are also some general changes I would like to propose in the Law Manip page.

• "Law Manipulation is the ability to control Laws" & "This power allows the user to control a specific law": Not really true, merely alter them randomly beyond one's control gives a character the power.
• "a system of rules imposed by an higher authority.": Completely false, laws don't need to be "imposed" by any "higher authority", any crazy law can exist since always in a universe. Also this fails to define what requirements the "higher authority" needs to meet, as one can have the power by just manipulating the laws in a pocket universe, calling the rules supernatural should be enough.
• Law and Laws are said in a capital L, for some reason, which is unnecessary.
• The image shows TLT being really powerful and having Fate Manip, maybe we should have an image that shows Law Manip? To keep things simple for new users?

 

[Antvasima]

Yould preferably ask several administrators to comment here. Probably Promestein and DontTalkDT as well.

 

[Antoniofer]

I though we considered Logic Manipulation to be Reality Warping, not Law Manipulation, not really related most of the time.

 

[Eficiente]

Btw there is already a Logic Users category, so there is that.

 

[Andytrenom]

Logic can refer to both reasoning made by people or fundamental principles that exist, such as "X=X", "A bachelor can't be married", etc. The later kind is what would give law manipulation

As for rewriting the page, I agree. Apart from your suggestions, it should also be clarified what "law" means in this context, since agreements made by a society as to what is allowed is very different from laws built into reality

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[Antvasima]

Should I place a link to this in the highlights thread?

 

[Andytrenom]

Don't think that's necessary

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Eficiente]

How would this look like?

Law Manip


Da Rules from The Fairly OddParents! is a book with supernatural laws that forcibly apply what they state across different universes and points in time.

Summary
The ability to manipulate supernatural laws that automatically apply themselves upon reality. This includes laws, rules, mandates and even notions that are the way in which a reality may function. The laws may or may not have been previously imposed by a higher authority within the setting of a verse.

Basic users of the power may only disturb one or more laws without control over them. Regular and more advanced users may be able to destroy, nullify, modify and/or create new laws, potentially to keep an order or to benefit themselves.

Possible Uses

• Reality Warping: Users of this ability may be able to manipulate the rules of reality, and high-level users may be able to even negate the current laws and enforce their own upon reality.
• Logic Manipulation: Users may be able to manipulate logical notions.
• Physics Manipulation: The user may be able to alter the fundamental laws of physics.
• Power Nullification: High-level users may be able to "prohibit" the use of certain power or abilities in a universe, rendering the users of said power powerless.
• Mathematics Manipulation: A mathematical result can be a fundamental truth, which a user may be able to alter.
• Causality Manipulation: By controlling the laws of cause and effect.

Users

• The Living Tribunal (Marvel Comics)
• Odi (Fortissimo)
• Hadou and Gudou Gods (Masadaverse)
• Zeus & Themis (Greek Mythology)
• Jorgen von Strangle and the Fairy Council via Da Rules (The Fairly OddParents!)
• The Player (Minecraft)

Logic Manip


Bugs Bunny's Toon Force allows him to do illogical things in a comedic fashion.

Summary
The ability to manipulate logic, referring to the fundamental principles/truths/facts that exist in reality. Users may be able to alter, modify and create new logic to themselves or in general.

Users who only do illogical things may only have Toon Force, especially when done in a cartoonish way. Although there are rare cases in which a logic manipulator is actually using its powers to imitate traits of Toon Force.

This is sub-power from Reality Warping, but resisting one doesn't necessarily mean resisting the other. Law Manipulation is also an extremely similar power, any logic can be considered "law", but this may or may not be achieved by overanalyzing the intent of an ability.

Possible Uses

• Reality Warping
• Toon Force
• Magic
• Causality Manipulation
• Physics Manipulation
• Chaos Manipulation
• Subjective Reality and/or Immersion

Limitations

• Could backfire on the user if it lacks the intellect needed to exploit the power, should this one be attached to its modified logic.
• Characters with type 5 and possibly type 4 should be Acausality may be unaffected.

Users

• Discord (My Little Pony)
• Mister Mxyzptlk (DC Comics)
• Cosmo, Wanda and other Fairies (The Fairly OddParents!)
• Bugs Bunny (Looney Tunes)

 

[Andytrenom]

Slight nitpick, a law isn't normally supernatural; quite the opposite as supernatural means being outside the current understanding of scientific laws. Otherwise that example is fine

Logic manipulation also still feels unnecessary to separate from law manipulation, especially in the way you've defined it. A principle is a law and truth/fact in this context refers to how everything functions/what things are possible, not just what happens to be true as in "earth is 71% water", "humans are made out of cells", etc.

Logic at the end of the day, is a fundamental law, at least the kind we are dealing with, it can do without having its own page

 

[Eficiente]

You're right.

I can agree with Logic Manip not being its own page but I feel like maybe the name of the latter power should redirect to the Law Manip page.

How about this summary?

"The ability to manipulate "laws" that automatically apply themselves upon reality, referring to rules, mandates and even fundamental logic/principles/truths/facts that are the way in which a reality may function. The laws may or may not have been previously imposed by a higher authority within the setting of a verse."

This kinda makes me wonder if Math Manip and Chaos Manip will still be powers in the future, but that's out of topic.

 

[Andytrenom]

Having it be a redirect is probably fine

 

[Antvasima]

I think that your conclusions seem fine.

 

[Andytrenom]

"fundamental logic/principles/truths/facts"

Maybe change this bit to "fundamental logic principles"? I feel what you currently have doesn't flow that well.

 

[Antvasima]

That is probably a good idea.

 

[Eficiente]

Very well, this seems almost finished. I could make the changes with the Law Manipulation page unlocked but I am not be able to redirect "Logic Manipulation" into it.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I can unlock the Law Manipulation page for you. Tell me here when you are done.

 

[Eficiente]

Done, all it's left is to redirect Logic Manipulation into the Law Manip page.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you.

 

[Antvasima]

I have locked the page, and redirected Logic Manipulation.

 

[Eficiente]

Perfect. Before closing this thread

@Andy I could be wrong, but do you think that Johnny Joestar should have Law Manip via his infinite rotation? His seemingly out of place resistance to time stop is justified by his ability to control gravity and it can force targets to obey the laws of physics. What Valentine seems to be referring by that is the 'inevitability' of the attack, which pursues him between universes (which is done due to its own Dimensional Travel, not taking advantage of Valantine's "portals")

Edit: Also "gravity" having this particular properties, assuming it's not the same gravity Pucci and DIO talk about too.