Let's go over MFTL+ Dragon Ball Z

[Stefano4444]

Guys can be focus on the main topic or do we have to keep derail until the staff get sick tired and decide to block it?

The discussion was about if to apply the KK10 statement for Goku or keep using only the KK4, the validity of the KK or the SSj1 its out of question.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

This is simply

VSBW assumes Pre-Freeza Goku can only go up to KKx4.

But Goku himself and the Daizenshuu states he can go up to KKx10

That's just it. It's going to affect the speed mostly because it's accepted, but that's a whole other topic you can discuss elsewhere.

The thing I'm asking is, are the statements going to be accepted? if not, why not? Why would we discard it?

By the way, this would affect Pre-Zenkai Goku's AP, as he would have a Power Level of 900.000, surpassing First Form Freeza, and thus, Dwarf Star Level.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

You calc a speed feat, make that their base speed, then you apply a multiplier making that multiplied speed their base speed, then apply multiplier again to the new base speed that was achieved by multipliers and then make the newest speed their base speed again, and you repeat.
This is just absurd multiplier stacking, if you don't have feats that put characters on such absurdly high levels, then don't put them there, maybe it's not their level.

If the show treats it this way, should we ignore it for the sake of argument?

Again, how can 1500c be absurd to a series currently being 200 quadrillion c? How? Explain.

You think

Saiyan Saga ----------- Namek Saga ---------------- Cell Saga --------------Buu Saga ------------- BoG Saga
0.74c -------------------------------------------- VOID -------------------------------------------- 200,000,000,000,000,000c


Is more reasonable than multipliers actually giving a solid number to said characters?

">>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>0.74c is better than an actual low-balled number guys, sorry."

 

[KLOL506]

-snip-

BTW, shouldn't your KKx10 multiplier also account for the AP increases?

Granted it does nothing to actually change the tiers all that much but still.

 

[SuperKamiNappa]

So if we're excepting multiplyers for SSJ1 where do we stand on SSJ2 and 3 (and also golden great ape)

 

[KLOL506]

So if we're excepting multiplyers for SSJ1 where do we stand on SSJ2 and 3 (and also golden great ape)

Anything beyond SSJ1 was deemed to be a no-no because the multipliers for those are nowhere near as consistent as something like, say, Kaio-Ken or even SSJ1.

 

[Theglassman12]

They also bring up massive plot holes in the series if we’re supposed to accept SSJ2 and 3 multipliers as legit

 

[Orange]

Anything beyond SSJ1 was deemed to be a no-no because the multipliers for those are nowhere near as consistent as something like, say, Kaio-Ken or even SSJ1.

Could you point out the inconsistency?[ they just say 'inconsistency' without providing any evidence]

 

[Orange]

They also bring up massive plot holes in the series if we’re supposed to accept SSJ2 and 3 multipliers as legit

Such as?

 

[KLOL506]

Such as?

The obvious Cell 4-B thing for starters.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Saiyan Saga ----------- Namek Saga ---------------- Cell Saga --------------Buu Saga ------------- BoG Saga
0.74c -------------------------------------------- VOID -------------------------------------------- 200,000,000,000,000,000c

Super Saiyan God.

Also, we do currently use multipliers, hence why everyone after the Frieza Saga is Massively FTL, so ion even get the argument here? It's more like 300c → 200Qc.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Such as?

Injured SSJ2 Gohan > Super Perfect Cell >> Powerweighted Cell >>> 100% Cell >>> Suppressed Cell >>> SSJ Gohan.
Either Super Saiyan 2 isn't actually 2x Super Saiyan, or a 2x gap in Dragon Ball is ******* massive (wrong).

 

[Theglassman12]

@Orange if SSJ2 is only a 2X amp of SSJ1 then Goku would not need Gohan to beat Cell if he can reach that level by stacking his mastered SSJ state on top of Kaioken X2, both of which he’s trained to the point he won’t lose any stamina or break his body in the process as shown and stated in the series. Cell would not be scared of SSJ2 whatsoever since he has Saiyan saga Goku’s DNA, who knows the Kaioken up to times 2 without breaking his body.

If SSJ3 is only a 4X amp of SSJ2, meaning it’s an 8X amp of SSJ1, then he’d just need to stack kaioken X8 with normal super Saiyan to achieve the same level of power without worrying about stamina or energy issues.

The only multiplier in any of the SSJ forms that makes any form of sense is SSJ1 since it’s far beyond Kaioken X20, something Goku tried to do on Frieza and it failed on. The others do not make any sense no matter how you look at it as it contradicts the story if we’re to accept the Daizenshuu’s multipliers.

 

[KLOL506]

@Orange if SSJ2 is only a 2X amp of SSJ1 then Goku would not need Gohan to beat Cell if he can reach that level by stacking his mastered SSJ state on top of Kaioken X2, both of which he’s trained to the point he won’t lose any stamina or break his body in the process as shown and stated in the series. Cell would not be scared of SSJ2 whatsoever since he has Saiyan saga Goku’s DNA, who knows the Kaioken up to times 2 without breaking his body.

If SSJ3 is only a 4X amp of SSJ2, meaning it’s an 8X amp of SSJ1, then he’d just need to stack kaioken X8 with normal super Saiyan to achieve the same level of power without worrying about stamina or energy issues.

The only multiplier in any of the SSJ forms that makes any form of sense is SSJ1 since it’s far beyond Kaioken X20, something Goku tried to do on Frieza and it failed on. The others do not make any sense no matter how you look at it as it contradicts the story if we’re to accept the Daizenshuu’s multipliers.

Pretty much this.

 

[ProudLearner]

Base Goku has a PL of 90,000 (At Least Planet Level) with KKx10 would get him to 900,000 (Dwarf Star level).

At least Planet level (Easily defeated Recoome, Burter, and Jeice. Surpassed Ginyu in power using Kaioken x2, leading to him stealing his body), Likely Dwarf Star level with Kaio-ken x10 (Stated by the Manga, Synopsis, and Daizenshuu to be able to use KKx10 before the Final Form Frieza fight)

 

[KLOL506]

Base Goku has a PL of 90,000 (At Least Planet Level) with KKx10 would get him to 900,000 (Dwarf Star level).

At least Planet level (Easily defeated Recoome, Burter, and Jeice. Surpassed Ginyu in power using Kaioken x2, leading to him stealing his body), Likely Dwarf Star level with Kaio-ken x10 (Stated by the Manga, Synopsis, and Daizenshuu to be able to use KKx10 before the Final Form Frieza fight)

I don't think we use Power Levels like that at all.

 

[SuperKamiNappa]

@Orange if SSJ2 is only a 2X amp of SSJ1 then Goku would not need Gohan to beat Cell if he can reach that level by stacking his mastered SSJ state on top of Kaioken X2, both of which he’s trained to the point he won’t lose any stamina or break his body in the process as shown and stated in the series. Cell would not be scared of SSJ2 whatsoever since he has Saiyan saga Goku’s DNA, who knows the Kaioken up to times 2 without breaking his body.

To be fair Goku was much weaker than Gohan even in the same form, Kaioken probably just wasn't able to make up for the difference. Also I think Toriyama just kinda forgot about Kaioken

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

To be fair Goku was much weaker than Gohan even in the same form, Kaioken probably just wasn't able to make up for the difference. Also I think Toriyama just kinda forgot about Kaioken

Makes sense. If he could forget Launch, and about Super Saiyan 2 when making Gotenks (he said he thought SSJ3 was SSJ2 when he illustrated the character), then I could totally see that happening.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

(he said he thought SSJ3 was SSJ2 when he illustrated the character)

I ******* love this.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

I ******* love this.

Bro, it's legit. I'll try to find the scans.

 

[Theglassman12]

@SuperKamiNappa hes not THAT weaker. Especially when kaioken can even the gap easily. Toriyama forgetting doesn’t change the fact that it’s a massive plot hole if we take the daizenshuu multipliers for those forms as legit.

 

[Orange]

Tbh, the cell vs gohan is a wierd fight
Gohan in ssj1 could potentially be stronger than goku but he didn't have the will to fight, when he transformed to ssj2 you'll have to count for : ssj1 full power [possibly stronger than goku'] + ssj2 boost+ gohan serious anger issues

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

I sent it to Null in his DMs to not derail, but if you guys genuinely want the scan, I'll send it on my message wall.

 

[SuperKamiNappa]

Tbh, the cell vs gohan is a wierd fight
Gohan in ssj1 could potentially be stronger than goku but he didn't have the will to fight, when he transformed to ssj2 you'll have to count for : ssj1 full power [possibly stronger than goku'] + ssj2 boost+ gohan serious anger issues

It's not possibly stronger than Goku literally everyone says he absolutely is. Gohan was mistakenly convinced Goku was holding back for a reason. Even Cell flat out said that Gohan was stronger than Goku

 

[Nullflowerblush]

@SuperKamiNappa hes not THAT weaker.

The Daizenshuu confirms that Goku inflicted no real damage onto Cell during their fight; however Gohan's power managed to surprise Cell initially. Gohan was also in disbelief after Goku powered up for Korin, assuming he was holding back massively, and during the Cell Games, he perceived Goku as though he was not even trying.

Tbh, the cell vs gohan is a wierd fight

Not really.

Super Saiyan Gohan is weaker than a suppressed Cell; yes, he did not want to fight back, but he was not holding back either.
Gohan unleashes Super Saiyan 2 and is stronger than Cell.
The fight and the scale is as simple as that.

ssj1 full power [possibly stronger than goku'] + ssj2 boost+ gohan serious anger issues

The Super Saiyan multipliers are not added together.

Also, are you suggesting that Gohan was as powerful as he was because of an anger boost? Because, that is not the case.
Gohan was dicking around with Cell the entire time. He was not angry—he was full of himself. Anger was simply the catalyst for his power.

 

[Theglassman12]

He did do damage, the warp kamehameha blew up his torso. The thing is his regeneration just brought him back, and the fact that Goku said Cell was exhausted from their fight, leading to him giving cell the senzu bean basically confirmed he did do some lasting damage on the guy.

 

[BlastX]

@Orange if SSJ2 is only a 2X amp of SSJ1 then Goku would not need Gohan to beat Cell if he can reach that level by stacking his mastered SSJ state on top of Kaioken X2, both of which he’s trained to the point he won’t lose any stamina or break his body in the process as shown and stated in the series. Cell would not be scared of SSJ2 whatsoever since he has Saiyan saga Goku’s DNA, who knows the Kaioken up to times 2 without breaking his body.

If SSJ3 is only a 4X amp of SSJ2, meaning it’s an 8X amp of SSJ1, then he’d just need to stack kaioken X8 with normal super Saiyan to achieve the same level of power without worrying about stamina or energy issues.

The only multiplier in any of the SSJ forms that makes any form of sense is SSJ1 since it’s far beyond Kaioken X20, something Goku tried to do on Frieza and it failed on. The others do not make any sense no matter how you look at it as it contradicts the story if we’re to accept the Daizenshuu’s multipliers.

Kaioken can't be stacked with SSJ unless it's god ki

It's never even brought up that he can, this seems more like headcanon

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Kaioken can't be stacked with SSJ unless it's god ki

Actually, God Ki is not a requirement. Elder Kai (in the anime, but that's considered the main canon here so whatever the ****) stated that he couldn't combine Super Saiyan and Kaio-ken because of the strain that the form put on Goku's body which is funny, because Full Power Super Saiyan was designed specifically to erase the strain.

 

[KLOL506]

Actually, God Ki is not a requirement. Elder Kai (in the anime, but that's considered the main canon here so whatever the ****) stated that he couldn't combine Super Saiyan and Kaio-ken because of the strain that the form put on Goku's body which is funny, because Full Power Super Saiyan was designed specifically to erase the strain.

Pretty sure that Elder Kai also outright stated that Goku would end up killing himself if he combined normal Super Saiyan with Kaio-Ken.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Actually, God Ki is not a requirement. Elder Kai (in the anime, but that's considered the main canon here so whatever the ****) stated that he couldn't combine Super Saiyan and Kaio-ken because of the strain that the form put on Goku's body which is funny, because Full Power Super Saiyan was designed specifically to erase the strain.

Well that alongside the fact that he was already dead in the anime would explain how he was able to combine them against Paikon.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

@Orange if SSJ2 is only a 2X amp of SSJ1 then Goku would not need Gohan to beat Cell if he can reach that level by stacking his mastered SSJ state on top of Kaioken X2, both of which he’s trained to the point he won’t lose any stamina or break his body in the process as shown and stated in the series. Cell would not be scared of SSJ2 whatsoever since he has Saiyan saga Goku’s DNA, who knows the Kaioken up to times 2 without breaking his body.

If SSJ3 is only a 4X amp of SSJ2, meaning it’s an 8X amp of SSJ1, then he’d just need to stack kaioken X8 with normal super Saiyan to achieve the same level of power without worrying about stamina or energy issues.

The only multiplier in any of the SSJ forms that makes any form of sense is SSJ1 since it’s far beyond Kaioken X20, something Goku tried to do on Frieza and it failed on. The others do not make any sense no matter how you look at it as it contradicts the story if we’re to accept the Daizenshuu’s multipliers.

Goku can't atack Kaioken on top of Super Saiyan. If he'd try to do that this will kill him, ot at the very least injure him very badly

Goku was only able to use Kaioken with Super Saiyan Blue due to the ki control of the form

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I don't think we use Power Levels like that at all.

What? So Goku, with a higher power level than a Dwarf Star Level character, can't be dwarf star?

Whatever, that's a whole other topic.

Regardless of what you think of the multiplier being used


Do you agree with the notion that Pre-Zenkai Goku could use the Kaioken x10 based on the evidence provided?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Btw, what the f are you all talking about?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Super Saiyan God.

Also, we do currently use multipliers, hence why everyone after the Frieza Saga is Massively FTL, so ion even get the argument here? It's more like 300c → 200Qc.

I was arguing with the person who didn't want Multipliers to be used.

Did you even--

Okay, again, what are your thoughts on Pre-Zenkai Goku being able to use Kaioken x10?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

He did do damage, the warp kamehameha blew up his torso. The thing is his regeneration just brought him back, and the fact that Goku said Cell was exhausted from their fight, leading to him giving cell the senzu bean basically confirmed he did do some lasting damage on the guy.

Cell was: 1) Heavily suppressed during his fight with SSJ Goku, and 2) Was caught off guard just before Goku blasted him.

And Cell was tired because like Namekians, regeneration takes a lot of stamina to do

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

Cell was: 1) Heavily suppressed during his fight with SSJ Goku, and 2) Was caught off guard just before Goku blasted him.

And Cell was tired because like Namekians, regeneration takes a lot of stamina to do

I mean, he has Namekian cells, so his ability to regenerate is just that on crack.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Okay, again, what are your thoughts on Pre-Zenkai Goku being able to use Kaioken x10?

Yea.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I mean, he has Namekian cells, so his ability to regenerate is just that on crack.

Yes, but he still got their flaw of wasting a lot of energy to do it, unlike Buu or Zamasu that can do it instantly

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I think this have enough support right? It's like, 3 or 4 staffs+15 people agreeing vs 2 disagreeing.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

Yes, but he still got their flaw of wasting a lot of energy to do it, unlike Buu or Zamasu that can do it instantly

It is the regeneration on crack. And much like crack, there are side effects for using it.