Gilad_Hyperstar
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Frieza Saga Goku > Vegeta > Third Form Frieza >>>> Namek Saga KK10 Goku = 10 * Namek Saga Base Goku
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Let's go over MFTL+ Dragon Ball Z
- Thread starter GodlyCharmander
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We do not know if Goku is actually capable of going Kaioken x10 or how he'd fair against 1st form Frieza. I would agree that saying he'd be superior and speed but weaker in raw power is a definite no. He has to either be superior in both or inferior in both given Dragon Ball tradition. Frieza's 1st form being superior to a Ginyu saga Kaioken x2 is a definite yes given 530,000 > 180,000. And Goku is capable of going Kaioken x4 at least; either he's slower and weaker or stronger and faster. The former would mean 1st form Frieza is legit over 4x faster than base Ginyu Goku and thus at least 16x faster than Piccolo's feat as a result. And either way, 3rd form Frieza is absolutely superior to a Kx4 Goku. It kind of has to be one or the other, a speed upgrade for 1st form Frieza or an AP upgrade for base Goku. But I think the latter is a lot more assumptive. Assuming Goku is right about himself capable of the 10x Kaioken, he'd still be inferior to 3rd form Frieza. But the skeptical part is just him being capable of that to begin with.
Also, if we're going to assume Goku is capable of Kaioken x10, that could just lead to more loopholes such as Base Goku compared to 1st form Frieza. Since that makes the either 1st form Frieza has to be faster than that, or base Goku downscales from Frieza anyway. And using the between Kaioken x5 and Kaioken x6 is also relies on hypothetical PL ratings abuse.
Honestly, I'd still prefer to stick to what I have on my blog. 1st form Frieza being above Kaioken x4 Goku, it would leave the 3rd form statement uncontradicted and would also ensure Ginyu Goku's hypothetical downscale isn't assumed.
Also, if we're going to assume Goku is capable of Kaioken x10, that could just lead to more loopholes such as Base Goku compared to 1st form Frieza. Since that makes the either 1st form Frieza has to be faster than that, or base Goku downscales from Frieza anyway. And using the between Kaioken x5 and Kaioken x6 is also relies on hypothetical PL ratings abuse.
Honestly, I'd still prefer to stick to what I have on my blog. 1st form Frieza being above Kaioken x4 Goku, it would leave the 3rd form statement uncontradicted and would also ensure Ginyu Goku's hypothetical downscale isn't assumed.
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@Gilad_Hyperstar then yeah Goku wouldn’t scale to third form Frieza, heck this would make post Zenkai faster since a weaker frieza is superior to KK X10 Goku.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Yeah, the time 10 boost will only scale to Third Form Frieza and above that, since going by power level, Kaioken times 10 Goku would be stronger than First Form Frieza
So basically:
Second Form Frieza = Piccolo (Fused with Nail) >> First Form > Namek Saga KK4 Goku >>>>>>> 11.928c (according to DDM's blog)
Frieza Saga Base Goku ~ Held Back Frieza >> Vegeta > Third Form Frieza >>>> Namek Saga KK10 Goku >>>>>>> 29.82c
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Why are we talking about "goku going to kk10" like it's a baseless assumption when it's supported by goku, aka the person who mastered the kk more than it's curator, kept training for a long time with himself, plus he can sense his own ki to know if his body would be able to handle it, plus it's a foreshadowing [non zenkai goku can go to kk10, zenkai boosted goky can go to kk20] plus the data book already states he is able to go to the kk10
GodlyCharmander
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Well... That's wrong. The whole point of this thread is proving he is capable of doing so. He said he could, the official databook and info said he could. Which means he could.
Going to get this in a moment.
GodlyCharmander
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The reasoning for "possibly" instead of "likely" or a flat-out upgrade being?
"I am not sure I could beat him when he is like this"
The uncertainty only appeared for 3rd Form Freeza, which would mean Goku was not uncertain about fighting the previous two forms. 3rd Form Freeza and Kaioken x10 Pre-Zenkai Goku are relative to each other.
GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 5,744
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Don't think that's the case.
My point isn't to say Kaioken x10 Goku = 3rd Form Freeza, my point is the fact Goku didn't flat out say he'd lose, he said he wasn't sure. This would mean both of them are relative to each other, and thus, making Kaioken x10 Goku (Pre-Zenkai), far above 1st Form Freeza
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That’s not what I said, if Goku said he wasn’t sure if he could take on Frieza in his third form then him scaling to that form wouldn’t make sense when he himself said he doesn’t know if he could do anything.
ProudLearner
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Using that Goku for scaling when he is still healing in a pod makes no sense to me.
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Goku was still being healed, and it's not like he said he stood no chance, he said he MIGHT not be able to win.
GodlyCharmander
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He said even if I'm FULLY HEALED I might not be able to win
GodlyCharmander
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Yeah, so you're strawmaning because I'm just saying his uncertainty about fighting 3rd form freeza should put him above 1st form freeza.
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He also said he gives up. This statement is too unreliable to use in any scaling.
Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,379
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That means that Third Form Frieza >>> Namek Saga KK10 Goku (Since even that wouldn't be enough to handle Frieza, and he said Frieza is too much for him to handle)
Stefano4444
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*Pre-Zenkai KK10 Goku.
Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,379
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GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 5,744
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- #538
While I disagree, I won't push further.
Either way, I'd still like to know why MFTL+ is just "possibly", when Goku being able to go Kaioken 10x is almost as solid as it can get.
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It would have been as solid as it can get if he actually went kaioken x10. He didn't, so all we have is his statement about himself when he seemed super hyped up.
GodlyCharmander
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Ignoring the word "almost" in my statement.
And, I don't know if you know this, but there's something callled "plot" which is more important than just showing something just for the sake of it.
He had no opportunity to use it in the story, therefore there's a possibility he couldn't??
That's argument from ignorance.
That's a blantant lie.
We have the official guide straight up saying he is capable of doing so, which you acknowledged already.
So let me see here,
You're giving me no reason to believe he is exaggerating other than him being hyped,
You're ignoring official sources backing his own statement up,
And yet, you're giving a "possibly" rating when it's at the very least a "likely"?
Nope. I'm using Hitchen's Razor against you, I gave you more than enough evidence for his capabilities, yet you're not proving any reasoning or counter-evidence for Goku being unable of going Kaioken x10.
And let me add an extra evidence here,
Tien stated Goku should be able to go Kaioken x10 with his level of TRAINING
Yes, Goku was already post-zenkai, but not only Tien doesn't know about that, but he said Level of TRAINING, not strength, which the literal creator of the technique didn't correct at all
GodlyCharmander
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This is getting beyond ridiculous, and rather unreasonable. You can close this, I give up on the matter entirely.
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Woah calm down wtf? This was accepted.
GodlyCharmander
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It wasn't.
If you want, you can make another thread. I won't stand having to wait nearly 1 month to have the evidence acknowledged in the first place, and then start debating about it pretending it wasn't even there.
I won't stand a matter being reasonable for multiple people, incluing some staff, be stopped by one person with no actual arguments just because of their authority
This kind of treatment is ONLY with Dragon Ball, things not shown on-screen but stated by other reliable sources multiple times are not treated with this pointless resistance with nothing to back it up.
I. give. up.
Again, I'm asking this to be closed.
GodlyCharmander
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@DarkDragonMedeus
Close this, please.
Close this, please.
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Wow did you know that patience is a virtue? Probably not because you let your anger take control despite nothing going wrong. You are just making yourself look stupid doing this, giving up on an upgrade that is clearly true. I am disappointed in you.
GodlyCharmander
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Which I do not have.
Again, nothing is stopping people to take this matter at their own hands.
"Nothing going wrong" is a very bold statement considering nothing is going on at all.
If being clearly true was enough for this one Staff, we wouldn't be here for a month
You know, I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody.
I think Bill Cosby said this.
GodlyCharmander
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He doesn't look stupid, his anger is justified.
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I will close this then
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I'm sorry but I'll have to reopen the thread. If you don't want to participate, you can unfollow the thread, but we aren't closing something mid-discussion just because you decided to get angry.
I already said Goku is not someone who will boast about himself. He knows his capabilities and if he says his body can handle it, then he should be able to use it. But you're not getting that simply because a character makes a statement when he is hyped, it doesn't mean it's 100% true.
Furthermore, adding a possibly was my opinion. Instead of losing it over something so minor, you should just ask for more staff input and see what they think about it.
The guide only reiterates stuff said in manga. Goku said he can use it, so it's included in the guide. I am not even dismissing it.
Goku was post-zenkai and Tien does know about that. He was constantly getting news about the events from King Kai. Why wouldn't he be factoring that in?
I already said Goku is not someone who will boast about himself. He knows his capabilities and if he says his body can handle it, then he should be able to use it. But you're not getting that simply because a character makes a statement when he is hyped, it doesn't mean it's 100% true.
Furthermore, adding a possibly was my opinion. Instead of losing it over something so minor, you should just ask for more staff input and see what they think about it.
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In my opinion, they should get the full tier because like you said, Goku is not one to over estimate himself or be over confident at all.
GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 5,744
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- #552
Oh yeah, do two things for me real quick,
1- Actually address my arguments when I question your decisions or conclusions
2- Give me an actual reasoning for your decisions, preferably without "non-sequitur"
Don't pretend this is a proper discussion, it is not.
Which confirms the information as being true.
"only reiterates stuff said in manga."
Does that make the information any less reliable?
Does that make the information any less important for the discussion?
No. It does add to my point, doesn't it?
He didn't know a thing about Zenkai, he said Level of Training because he got that information.
Which is actually a nod to Goku's very own statement, to remind the viewer, "Hey, remember! Goku said he could use Kaioken x10".
Goku is a reliable source with authority on the matter.
His statement was confirmed as 100% true by an official source.
Stop pretending this is an actual human being talking, this is a line written for exposition and for the writer to speak for the character, it foreshadowed his use of the technique in the Freeza fight, which is the reason why Tien says "remember the Kaioken technique", so the viewers would remember this line going "Oh yeah, he said he could! We never got to see him use it!!"
Also, you totally ignored how he said level of training, not power, which is a nod to Goku saying he was capable of doing so just basing on his training alone. Akira clearly intended this to be true, and you're giving me no alternative.
Possibly assumes there's a 50% chance he can't do so.
I ask again, stop treating Goku like a living person
In what scenario him being wrong helps the plot?
In what scenario he is unable to go Kaioken x10?
When did the writting or the story contradict this statement?
Why would Toriyama make him say that if it were false?
How can you argue for a possibly, when there's actual evidence to believe it's true, and no scenario or evidence provided to believe otherwise othan than you saying... "Y'know, maybe it's hyyyype"
"Possibly" assumes there's an equal amount of evidence for both sides. There is not.
This is at least a "Likely", and there's already Staff input here, they agreed with the full-on upgrade. DDM is coming from a place of fear, so he didn't give an input based on the evidence itself.
I already messaged Staff, but it seems I only have you here. (EDITED)
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please no.
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I agree with charmander whole-heartedly. This shit is way too common, but lets cool down.
GodlyCharmander
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- #557
Terribly sorry for my temper. I shouldn't let my frustration for something I found unfair be part of my argument. I hope this didn't devalue any of the points I made
GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 5,744
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- #558
Also, let's not ignore all the other 15 people, including two-three staffs, who agreed with the upgrade on all these 5 pages earlier. Their input matter, right?
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