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Let's go over MFTL+ Dragon Ball Z

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Really though, should we close this one and make another treating the Kaioken as the main and only subject?
 
Theglassman12 said:
He did do damage, the warp kamehameha blew up his torso. The thing is his regeneration just brought him back, and the fact that Goku said Cell was exhausted from their fight, leading to him giving cell the senzu bean basically confirmed he did do some lasting damage on the guy.
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Ok but Gohan could have just gotten a rage boost.
 
@Gilad_Hyperstar his full powered super Saiyan has ki control given he can utilize that form with little to no issue for long periods of time. So he could easily use kaioken.
 
This is for the manga canon continuity, Toei is a different topic. Though, on topic, DBS has Goku mentioning he's unable to merge Kaioken with SSJ due to taking too much Ki Control. But SSB and SSG forms also cause Control over Ki to be more advanced to the point where he can merge it.
 
Nullflowerblush said:
Actually, God Ki is not a requirement. Elder Kai (in the anime, but that's considered the main canon here so whatever the ****) stated that he couldn't combine Super Saiyan and Kaio-ken because of the strain that the form put on Goku's body which is funny, because Full Power Super Saiyan was designed specifically to erase the strain.
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But even if we discard the Super Kaio-ken argument, Super Saiyan 2 Gohan scales above Super Perfect Cell, who scales far above a Powerweighted Cell, who scales far above a 100% Cell, who scales far above a "Tournament Level" Cell, who scales above Super Saiyan Gohan with less than half of his power.

Even the gap between 100% Cell and "Tournament Level" Cell would be around 2x, but then you stack on the Powerweighted form, which according to the El Manga Legendario is ten-times as powerful as Second Grade which itself is many times stronger than ordinary Super Saiyan.

The only way for Super Saiyan 2 to be only 2x Super Saiyan is if all of Cell's powerups and all the higher Super Saiyan grades only equated to fraction-multipliers (i.e. 1.25x, 1.5x, 1.75x, etc.), and if every other databook (i.e., Daizenshuu, El Manga Legendario, etc.) just did not matter.
 
Can we make a small edit to show people that are against, with, or neutral [we need to list thier reasonings so they don't need to repeat themselves]
 
You assumed Ginyu Saga Goku can't even go Kaioken 4x, which he has literally been able to do so in a weaker state. That is nonsensical.
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This is not what I am assuming. He can go kk x4. But do we have any official power level listed for this hypothetical Goku? No. Hence, we should not include him in the scaling chain.

A BP of 900,000. Inferior to Post-Zenkai Goku.
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Please show me the source of this BP of 900,000. I don't think that's listed anywhere. We absolutely don't do that here. We don't multiply BP based on hypothetical kaioken numbers unless it is shown or officially listed. Hence we have no official proof that post-Zenkai Goku was stronger than a hypothetical kk x10 Goku.

Again, I am not saying that your argument is senseless. It's not. But we do be conservative with multipliers and only go with hard evidence that is listed and that require zero assumptions, otherwise you'd have the problem of multiplier stacking using similar logic that will bump the speed up to a much greater level and hence we would need to discard the multipliers altogether.
 
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AKM sama said:
This is not what I am assuming. He can go kk x4. But do we have any official power level listed for this hypothetical Goku? No. Hence, we should not include him in the scaling chain.


Please show me the source of this BP of 900,000. I don't think that's listed anywhere. We absolutely don't do that here. We don't multiply BP based on hypothetical kaioken numbers unless it is not shown or not officially listed. Hence we have no official proof that post-Zenkai Goku was stronger than a hypothetical kk x10 Goku.

Again, I am not saying that your argument is senseless. It's not. But we do be conservative with multipliers and only go with hard evidence that is listed and that require zero assumptions, otherwise you'd have the problem of multiplier stacking using similar logic that will bump the speed up to a much greater level and hence we would need to discard the multipliers altogether.
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Actually I think it was Promestein who brought up the High 5-A+ argument by arguing for Post-Zenkai Goku to be High 5-A+ instead of "At least High 5-A" even though I repeatedly told her that KKx10 on Pre-Zenkai Goku wouldn't budge him from Planet level AP (It'd only put Goku higher into the 5-B spectrum) when he argued that Kaio-Ken should be applied to AP as well and not just speed.

That being said, I am also absolutely not sold on using power levels to upgrade Goku to High 5-A like this. Power levels are not at all linear to begin with.
 
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Prom is female (how do you not know that KLOL?).
But yeah, her point is correct. If we are using the accepted kaioken multipliers, it should apply to the AP too. But I haven't looked at the AP numbers (I thought we already do that to his AP).
 
AKM sama said:
But yeah, her point is correct. If we are using the accepted kaioken multipliers, it should apply to the AP too. But I haven't looked at the AP numbers (I thought we already do that to his AP).
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As for this, we already do it.

But here's the new proposed KKx10 scaling chart.

*Saiyan Saga KKx3 Goku is baseline 5-B or 2.49E+32 J (Actual GBE of Earth). Divide by 3 and base Saiyan Saga Goku is Low 5-B or 8.29e+31 J. So KKx4 being slapped on it puts Goku at 3.316e+32 J.

*Pre-Zenkai Namek Saga Base Goku is stronger than his Saiyan Saga KKx4 self. So 3.316e+32 J. KKx10 on this gets him, 3.316e+33 J. Still Planet level. THIS IS PRE-ZENKAI. I ABSOLUTELY DO NOT AGREE WITH GOKU'S 90K POWER LEVEL UPPING ITSELF TO 900K TO BE USED AS A JUSTIFICATION FOR HIM TO BE "LIKELY HIGH 5-A" though.

*Post-Zenkai Namek Saga base Goku scales waaaaaaaay above First Form Frieza, who is 7.3069286e+39 J, High 5-A. Goku already used Kaio-Ken x10 and x20, both of which are 7.3069286e+40 J and 1.46138572e+41 J respectively, both values being Small Star level. Small Star level+ happens when SSJ1 kicks in, which is a 50x multiplier over base, 3.6534643e+41 J (Small Star level+ starts at 3.00345E+41 J). (This is already a thing BTW, so Post-Zenkai gets no change in the AP department, only Pre-Zenkai Goku does and even then it's minimal at best)

So yeah, while. speed gets the biggest boosts due to this, AP actually doesn't.
 
AKM sama said:
This is not what I am assuming. He can go kk x4. But do we have any official power level listed for this hypothetical Goku? No. Hence, we should not include him in the scaling chain.


Please show me the source of this BP of 900,000. I don't think that's listed anywhere. We absolutely don't do that here. We don't multiply BP based on hypothetical kaioken numbers unless it is shown or officially listed. Hence we have no official proof that post-Zenkai Goku was stronger than a hypothetical kk x10 Goku.

Again, I am not saying that your argument is senseless. It's not. But we do be conservative with multipliers and only go with hard evidence that is listed and that require zero assumptions, otherwise you'd have the problem of multiplier stacking using similar logic that will bump the speed up to a much greater level and hence we would need to discard the multipliers altogether.
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I agree, if only the kk10 was stated by a reliable character or a reliable data book that we used multiple times
but sadly only goku, just the protagonist and who mastred the KK more than it's creator, and the daizenshu that we used multiple times stated that he could go to KK10, nothing too reliable ofcourse
 
KLOL506 said:
As for this, we already do it.

But here's the new proposed KKx10 scaling chart.

*Saiyan Saga KKx3 Goku is baseline 5-B or 2.49E+32 J (Actual GBE of Earth). Divide by 3 and base Saiyan Saga Goku is Low 5-B or 8.29e+31 J. So KKx4 being slapped on it puts Goku at 3.316e+32 J.

*Pre-Zenkai Namek Saga Base Goku is stronger than his Saiyan Saga KKx4 self. So 3.316e+32 J. KKx10 on this gets him, 3.316e+33 J. Still Planet level. THIS IS PRE-ZENKAI. I ABSOLUTELY DO NOT AGREE WITH GOKU'S 90K POWER LEVEL UPPING ITSELF TO 900K TO BE USED AS A JUSTIFICATION FOR HIM TO BE "LIKELY HIGH 5-A" though.

*Post-Zenkai Namek Saga base Goku scales waaaaaaaay above First Form Frieza, who is 7.3069286e+39 J, High 5-A. Goku already used Kaio-Ken x10 and x20, both of which are 7.3069286e+40 J and 1.46138572e+41 J respectively, both values being Small Star level. Small Star level+ happens when SSJ1 kicks in, which is a 50x multiplier over base, 3.6534643e+41 J (Small Star level+ starts at 3.00345E+41 J). (This is already a thing BTW, so Post-Zenkai gets no change in the AP department, only Pre-Zenkai Goku does and even then it's minimal at best)

So yeah, while. speed gets the biggest boosts due to this, AP actually doesn't.
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Uh, guys?
 
What I said was that Post-Zenkai Goku would have to be Dwarf Star level+ to reach Low 4-C with a 10x buff. I was saying nothing about Pre-Zenkai Goku.
 
Promestein said:
What I said was that Post-Zenkai Goku would have to be Dwarf Star level+ to reach Low 4-C with a 10x buff. I was saying nothing about Pre-Zenkai Goku.
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I mean, First Form Frieza is already 7.3069286e+39 J (Which is high-end Dwarf Star level but not + territory), and Post-Zenkai Base Goku is already waaaaaay above that by scaling above even Third Form Frieza. With Kaio-Ken x10, 7.3069286e+39 times 10 is 7.3069286e+40 J, which is Small Star level, there is no need to change Goku to Dwarf Star level+.

And yeah, this is the only time Goku actually uses Kaio-Ken x10 and x20 but still loses to 50% Final Form Frieza.
 
I... Really do not care about AP at all. Even though it's clear as crystal that BP was being treated linearly when Kaioken was used, is the entire argument for rejecting "Kaioken x10 Pre-Zenkai Goku" being used in the chain not knowing if Post-Zenkai Goku was stronger than it or not?
 
Is AKM really considering that "Pre-Zenkai Kaioken x10 might be stronger than Base Post-Zenkai Goku, i dunno" is a point to be made?
 
GodlyCharmander said:
Is AKM really considering that "Pre-Zenkai Kaioken x10 might be stronger than Base Post-Zenkai Goku, i dunno" is a point to be made?
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Uh, no? No one is considering that.

Heck, Power Levels should not even be a factor here.
 
GodlyCharmander said:
Is AKM really considering that "Pre-Zenkai Kaioken x10 might be stronger than Base Post-Zenkai Goku, i dunno" is a point to be made?
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Careful, you're tongue seems to be hot. Basically AKM is saying "This is an objective wiki, we do not work off of maybes". Remember a lot of people use this for casual viewing and their own scaling not just people on site. If we use non confirmed ways to justify stuff, people are gonna be rubbed the wrong way. Also imagine if every verse was basically, "This is mostly true so it's used." We'd be a wiki of trust and this wiki would become 10x worse because people are arguing whether or not a character should scale over something others don't think work due to subjective shit.
 
I genuinely doubt power levels were ever brought up as a legitimate reason to discard Kaio-Ken x10 Pre-Zenkai Goku. So let's not derail on the power levels fluff.
 
KLOL506 said:
I genuinely doubt power levels were ever brought up as a legitimate reason to discard Kaio-Ken x10 Pre-Zenkai Goku. So let's not derail on the power levels fluff.
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Charm is using scaling for Post-Zenkai Goku > Pre Zenkai KKX10 Goku. And AKM is saying we have no proof that the hypothetical PL would be lower. Or atleast I think so.
 
KLOL506 said:
Uh, no? No one is considering that.

Heck, Power Levels should not even be a factor here.
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The whole point of not using the Kaioken x10 is not knowing how strong this "hypothetical Goku" would be, which implies AKM believes that Post-Zenkai Base Goku might not be stronger than Kaioken x10 Pre-Zenkai Goku. Power Levels are not the point in my complaint
 
That's not what a "+" sign means. If you have a "+" sign, it means all it takes is a 2x multiplier to reach the next tier. Baseline Low 4-C only starts at 7.505 Tenatons. Frieza in his 1st form is 1.75 Tenatons and thus even 5x is more than enough to jump to Low 4-C.

Also, we are not using the 900,000 PL one way or the other. We aren't assuming 1st form Frieza is faster than a Ginyu saga Goku, nor are we downscaling his AP from 1st form Frieza and thus Captain Ginyu to be 291.67 Ninatons via being 1/6th of 1st form Frieza's power or what not. We did see Goku go Kaioken x2 against Ginyu which is still inferior to 1st form Frieza. And is logically capable of going Kaioken x4. I'm okay with using the 4x multiplier in that instance, but no further than what I already put in my blog.

Now, last I checked, I think AKM is fine with Massively FTL now that the math was checked. I think the only thing he's skeptical about was just comparing 1st form Frieza to Kaioken x4 Pre-Zenkai Goku but is fine with using Kaioken x2 since he unleashes it with an official PL read caught on scouter.
 
DivineAura44 said:
Careful, you're tongue seems to be hot. Basically AKM is saying "This is an objective wiki, we do not work off of maybes". Remember a lot of people use this for casual viewing and their own scaling not just people on site. If we use non confirmed ways to justify stuff, people are gonna be rubbed the wrong way. Also imagine if every verse was basically, "This is mostly true so it's used." We'd be a wiki of trust and this wiki would become 10x worse because people are arguing whether or not a character should scale over something others don't think work due to subjective shit.
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For the record, from my experience, this wiki doesn't 100% work off objective fact. There's a reason, that possibly/likely, tiers exist. Plus several verses like OPM have had scaling switched around via things being likely.
 
AKM sama said:
Hence we have no official proof that post-Zenkai Goku was stronger than a hypothetical kk x10 Goku.
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Goku states the following as he was sensing Freeza's Third Form while he was healing.

"even once I'm healed, I'm not sure I can beat him when he's like this..." (keep in mind that Goku had no knowledge that he'd get stronger, as he knew little to nothing about the Zenkai, and he was even surprised by getting stronger)

The statements implies 3rd Form Freeza ~ Pre-Zenkai Goku at his best, which would be Kaioken x10.

For your reference, here is the Japanese Raw statement for Goku saying 3rd Form Freeza might be too much to handle. And him getting surprised.


"これじゃオラのカラダが完全に一なおっても勝てねえかも。"

"With this, even if my body is restored, it may not be possible to win."

Can Post-Zenkai Goku be stronger than him now?
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
That's not what a "+" sign means. If you have a "+" sign, it means all it takes is a 2x multiplier to reach the next tier. Baseline Low 4-C only starts at 7.505 Tenatons. Frieza in his 1st form is 1.75 Tenatons and thus even 5x is more than enough to jump to Low 4-C.

Also, we are not using the 900,000 PL one way or the other. We aren't assuming 1st form Frieza is faster than a Ginyu saga Goku, nor are we downscaling his AP from 1st form Frieza and thus Captain Ginyu to be 291.67 Ninatons via being 1/6th of 1st form Frieza's power or what not. We did see Goku go Kaioken x2 against Ginyu which is still inferior to 1st form Frieza. And is logically capable of going Kaioken x4. I'm okay with using the 4x multiplier in that instance, but no further than what I already put in my blog.

Now, last I checked, I think AKM is fine with Massively FTL now that the math was checked. I think the only thing he's skeptical about was just comparing 1st form Frieza to Kaioken x4 Pre-Zenkai Goku but is fine with using Kaioken x2 since he unleashes it with an official PL read caught on scouter.
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AP is not the point of this, it's accepting that Goku can use Kaioken x10 before he fought Freeza. That's it, nothing more.

Can you give me a good reason not to use both statements which tells us that he can go up to x10?
 
The AP point was a response to what Promestein said above. No one else.
 
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