Let's go over MFTL+ Dragon Ball Z

[Theglassman12]

I’m ok with the 10X amp for Goku given he’s shown to go to 20X without destroying his body as opposed to saiyan saga when he used times 4. On top of the fact he didn’t do any training when he arrived on Namek, it should be reasonable that pre-Frieza Goku would scale.

 

[Promestein]

Since when were we using multipliers...?

 

[sanicspood]

Since when were we using multipliers...?

for a while?

 

[Promestein]

Why're we applying the multiplier to speed just like that?

 

[sanicspood]

whats the problem

 

[KLOL506]

Why're we applying the multiplier to speed just like that?

Uh, did you just miss the revisions for Kaio-Ken and SSJ1?

We've been using Kaio-Ken multipliers since like, forever, including the Frieza Saga SSJ1 50x multiplier. Even had a freakin' rule made for it in the Dragon Ball page.

 

[Promestein]

Did you see me on the thread? If not, yes, clearly I missed them. I'm not part of every revision thread on the wiki, I don't know how you expect me to instantly intuit this information and why it's now accepted, nor why you expect me to instantly agree just because other people did.

 

[KLOL506]

Did you see me on the thread? If not, yes, clearly I missed them. I'm not part of every revision thread on the wiki, I don't know how you expect me to instantly intuit this information and why it's now accepted, nor why you expect me to instantly agree just because other people did.

And? What does it matter? It's a rule now that was accepted, if you want it changed, make a CRT for it, though at this point I doubt it'd go through, given Kaio-Ken's blatant consistency.

 

[sanicspood]

Did you see me on the thread? If not, yes, clearly I missed them. I'm not part of every revision thread on the wiki, I don't know how you expect me to instantly intuit this information and why it's now accepted, nor why you expect me to instantly agree just because other people did.

um, noones saying or expecting u to

 

[Promestein]

I'm asking why now, more on the SSJ front than the Kaio-ken front. Kaio-ken's been accepted more or less for a while; I'm curious as to why SSJ is being accepted now and why we're applying multipliers directly to speed feats.

 

[sanicspood]

go on this thread

and this technically

 

[KLOL506]

I'm asking why now, more on the SSJ front than the Kaio-ken front. Kaio-ken's been accepted more or less for a while; I'm curious as to why SSJ is being accepted now and why we're applying multipliers directly to speed feats.

Because SSJ1's multiplier comes from official sources, and because the Kaio-Ken multipliers are explicitly stated to increase both strength and speed in a linear fashion.

 

[Promestein]

Toriyama himself contradicts the SSJ multiplier, doesn't he? Not that it matters or makes any sense when he does it. I don't like stacking and using multipliers like this at all, but okay, whatever.

 

[sanicspood]

Toriyama himself contradicts the SSJ multiplier, doesn't he? Not that it matters or makes any sense when he does it. I don't like stacking and using multipliers like this at all, but okay, whatever.

ok cool doesnt matter what u think at this point unless u make a revision, multiple staff already accepted this so

 

[KLOL506]

Toriyama himself contradicts the SSJ multiplier, doesn't he? Not that it matters or makes any sense when he does it. I don't like stacking and using multipliers like this at all, but okay, whatever.

Eh, there are two official sources for the 50x multiplier of the SSJ1, the Daizenshuu and the Super Exciting Guide.

And it really only applies to SSJ1 and SSB (Due to SSB being the SSJ form of SSG).

 

[Promestein]

As I said, "okay, whatever".

The SSJ section in the Daizenshuu just says it multiplies battle power. I don't think we can treat that as linear to stats as presented here every time. What's the Super Exciting Guide say? Oh, just the same thing.

 

[KLOL506]

As I said, "okay, whatever".

Aight then.

 

[KLOL506]

The SSJ section in the Daizenshuu just says it multiplies battle power. I don't think we can treat that as linear to stats as presented here every time. What's the Super Exciting Guide say? Oh, just the same thing.

Bro, I literally gave you the scans.

Super Exciting Guide outright just blurts out the 50x multiplier for SSJ1.

 

[Promestein]

I know, I read it. It just says 'multiplies battle power by 50x' both times, I wouldn't say that's necessarily the most substantiated multiplier to apply linearly just like that - sure, it's stronger than Kaio-ken x20, and this isn't the worst multiplier to apply, but I don't necessarily see these scans as a smoking bullet or anything.

 

[KLOL506]

I know, I read it. It just says 'multiplies battle power by 50x' both times, I wouldn't say that's necessarily the most substantiated multiplier to apply linearly just like that - sure, it's stronger than Kaio-ken x20, and this isn't the worst multiplier to apply, but I don't necessarily see these scans as a smoking bullet or anything.

Final Form Frieza had to increase his power level from 50% to 100% to just land solid hits on SSJ1 Goku and yet Goku still smacked him around right before Frieza ran out of his stamina to do anything meaningful. At the very least SSJ1 would be a 40x multiplier over Goku's base via being superior to 100% Frieza.

Granted it only makes Goku about 1.25x stronger than 100% Final Form Frieza using the canonically-stated 50x multiplier but whatever.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

I know, I read it. It just says 'multiplies battle power by 50x' both times, I wouldn't say that's necessarily the most substantiated multiplier to apply linearly just like that - sure, it's stronger than Kaio-ken x20, and this isn't the worst multiplier to apply, but I don't necessarily see these scans as a smoking bullet or anything.

With all due respect, why aren't multipliers (in Dragon Ball Z, since those are far more linear) treated linearly? The only real anti-feat for that I can think of is Oozaru forms. Other than that, it seems like a lot of the other stuff is actually very consistent with being scaled linearly.

 

[Promestein]

That's true! But I have another question! Why are we applying these boosts linearly to speed but not linearly to AP? They're grouped in by the 'battle power' statement and by the Kaio-ken statement; why apply it linearly to one but not the other?

It's just a general rule, so long as it's substantiated and consistent it's fine, even if I have a personal distaste for the use of multipliers. I'm not exactly arguing for throwing them all out here; I was asked to comment, so I'm commenting, and my commenting is bickering with the foundation of this multiplier use.

 

[Slacjow]

Anyways the fact this has been counted as an outlier is pretty astounding to me. We take calcs from when they were moon level, go to Small Star Level which is at least a 17,315,790,902.2 boost in power (don't care to actually check so it's more.) And it's an outlier to progress from .745C to 1,490c? a literal only 2000x boost? (Only 40 in base.) I understand on this wiki, power boost / = / speed boost when it comes to Ki but really?

Moon Level and dwarf level feats actually happened.
This thread tries to boost a Rel+ speed rating to MFTL solely on multipliers, without feats to back it up.
So, is it hard to believe that some people might find this kind of scaling, idk, iffy?

 

[KLOL506]

That's true! But I have another question! Why are we applying these boosts linearly to speed but not linearly to AP? They're grouped in by the 'battle power' statement and by the Kaio-ken statement; why apply it linearly to one but not the other?

It's just a general rule, so long as it's substantiated and consistent it's fine, even if I have a personal distaste for the use of multipliers. I'm not exactly arguing for throwing them all out here; I was asked to comment, so I'm commenting, and my commenting is bickering with the foundation of this multiplier use.

Wait, the OP doesn't do this? As in, account for an AP boost? That's strange. They should've done that.

Though I doubt Pre-Zenkai Namek Saga Goku's getting out of 5-B even with that (Since Saiyan Saga KKx3 Goku is like, baseline 5-B and Pre-Zenkai Namek Saga base Goku is comparable to his Saiyan Saga KKx4 self).

*Saiyan Saga KKx3 Goku is baseline 5-B or 2.49E+32 J (Actual GBE of Earth). Divide by 3 and base Saiyan Saga Goku is Low 5-B or 8.29e+31 J. So KKx4 being slapped on it puts Goku at 3.316e+32 J.

*Pre-Zenkai Namek Saga Base Goku is stronger than his Saiyan Saga KKx4 self. So 3.316e+32 J. KKx10 on this gets him, 3.316e+33 J. Still Planet level.

 

[KLOL506]

Moon Level and dwarf level feats actually happened.
This thread tries to boost a Rel+ speed rating to MFTL solely on multipliers, without feats to back it up.
So, is it hard to believe that some people might find this kind of scaling, idk, iffy?

This shit again? Really?

 

[Slacjow]

This shit again? Really?

Is something wrong with it? I can't doubt ratings that were generated solely on multipliers?

 

[Promestein]

The OP is focusing entirely on speed.

 

[KLOL506]

Is something wrong with it? I can't doubt ratings that were generated solely on multipliers?

Why would you doubt multipliers that are explicitly confirmed by the story and main source materials and are shown to be blatantly linear? How many times would we need to say that explicit, blatant multipliers repeatedly hammered down by the story shown with massive power boosts are just as legit and that you don't need supporting feats for that?

 

[Orange]

Is something wrong with it? I can't doubt ratings that were generated solely on multipliers?

Ssj and kk stated to be linear multiplier, have confirmed numbers with feats to back them up. All the stomping that gets created when someone uses them.
Seems like you don't want to accept it because

 

[KLOL506]

The OP is focusing entirely on speed.

Well in any case it wouldn't affect the AP of Pre-Zenkai Namek Saga Goku as much (As in, he won't be leaving AP tiers anytime soon).

 

[Promestein]

I mean, you'd have to pop him near the top of High 5-A in base at the least.

 

[KLOL506]

I mean, you'd have to pop him near the top of High 5-A in base at the least.

Pretty sure only Post-Zenkai Namek Base Goku would be High 5-A (Which he already is).

Again, here's the scaling with KKx10 in play-

*Saiyan Saga KKx3 Goku is baseline 5-B or 2.49E+32 J (Actual GBE of Earth). Divide by 3 and base Saiyan Saga Goku is Low 5-B or 8.29e+31 J. So KKx4 being slapped on it puts Goku at 3.316e+32 J.

*Pre-Zenkai Namek Saga Base Goku is stronger than his Saiyan Saga KKx4 self. So 3.316e+32 J. KKx10 on this gets him, 3.316e+33 J. Still Planet level. THIS IS PRE-ZENKAI.

*Post-Zenkai Namek Saga base Goku scales above First Form Frieza, who is 7.3069286e+39 J, High 5-A. Goku already used Kaio-Ken x10 and x20, both of which are 7.3069286e+40 J and 1.46138572e+41 J respectively, both values being Small Star level. Small Star level+ happens when SSJ1 kicks in, which is a 50x multiplier over base, 3.6534643e+41 J (Small Star level+ starts at 3.00345E+41 J).

 

[Promestein]

Rather than "At least High 5-A" he'd have to be High 5-A+, given the 20x jump broaching Low 4-C.

 

[Slacjow]

Why would you doubt multipliers that are explicitly confirmed by the story and main source materials? How many times would we need to say that explicit, blatant multipliers repeatedly hammered down by the story shown with massive power boosts are just as legit and that you don't need supporting feats for that?

Because you are trying to give Goku a 1000x FTL while nor he, nor anyone he scales from, ever showed to move at such speeds.
You just calculated a single feat and applying multipliers to it over and over.

You calc a speed feat, make that their base speed, then you apply a multiplier making that multiplied speed their base speed, then apply multiplier again to the new base speed that was achieved by multipliers and then make the newest speed their base speed again, and you repeat.
This is just absurd multiplier stacking, if you don't have feats that put characters on such absurdly high levels, then don't put them there, maybe it's not their level.

Ssj and kk stated to be linear multiplier, have confirmed numbers with feats to back them up. All the stomping that gets created when someone uses them.
Seems like you don't want to accept it because

There are no speed feats, only scaling.

 

[KLOL506]

Because you are trying to give Goku a 1000x FTL while nor he, nor anyone he scales from, ever showed to move at such speeds.
You just calculated a single feat and applying multipliers to it over and over.

You calc a speed feat, make that their base speed, then you apply a multiplier making that multiplied speed their base speed, then apply multiplier again to the new base speed that was achieved by multipliers and then make the newest speed their base speed again, and you repeat.
This is just absurd multiplier stacking, if you don't have feats that put characters on such absurdly high levels, then don't put them there, maybe it's not their level.

There are no speed feats, only scaling.

FOR THE LAST TIME SLACJOW

When the story itself hammers down the multipliers hard and in a linear fashion, you do not need feats to support them.

 

[Promestein]

I don't think the story really does hammer them down that hard, especially not the SSJ multiplier.

 

[KLOL506]

Rather than "At least High 5-A" he'd have to be High 5-A+, given the 20x jump broaching Low 4-C.

High 5-A+ starts at 1.572953e+40 J.

Though considering Goku went toe-to-toe against a held-back 50% Final Form Frieza who is undeniably superior to his First, Second and Third Forms, I wouldn't say it's out of the realm of possibility.

 

[KLOL506]

I don't think the story really does hammer them down that hard, especially not the SSJ multiplier.

Kaio-Ken says otherwise (Kaio-Ken itself in the story has been repeatedly shown in a linear fashion with blatant number multipliers being stated for it as well). As for SSJ1, Goku vs Frieza should be more than enough to explain it.

The Kaio-Ken multipliers are literally not up for discussion anymore.

 

[Orange]

Ohhh I see, so using canonical information, multipliers backed up by several feats, numbers and statements, multiple instances of people blitzing each other when getting such multipliers is absurd!
but intentionally ignoring multiple canon pieces of evidence, authors intent, characters abilities, multipliers that are one of the cores of the franchise, transformations that changes and reshapes the plot is totally justifiable with "numbers too high because using canon statements, feats, multipliers and plot relevance is against logical thinking because "

 

[Orange]

Kaio-Ken says otherwise (Kaio-Ken itself in the story has been repeatedly shown in a linear fashion with blatant number multipliers being stated for it as well). As for SSJ1, Goku vs Frieza should be more than enough to explain it.

I mean goku bitch slapping frieza after transforming into ssj, or the linear multiplier of kk is totally the writer didn't intend to show I guess
silly us dbz supporters, how dare we use feats and statements!