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Let's go over MFTL+ Dragon Ball Z

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GodlyCharmander

GodlyCharmander

He/Him
5,744
4,996
New multiplier accepted, the SSJ Multiplier. 50x. Let's go over that.

There are multiple options here.

ten-fold statement [REJECTED]
Saiyan Saga Goku was >0.745c, and therefore >2.98c in his Kaioken 4x state. Fine.

Start of Namek Saga, his power and speed were stated to have increased ten-fold, this was stated in the volume summaries, and his PL was also increased over 10x, so it's not inconsistent.

Namek Saga Goku (Pré-Zenkai) was >7.45c, that's >29.8c in his KK4 state.

Post-Zenkai Base Goku was superior to said kaioken form in Power Level, so it's >>29.8c, that's >>298c with his Kaioken 10x, and >>596c with his Kaioken 20x, and now, with the newly accepted 50x multiplier, Goku is >>1490c with his SSJ form, that's MFTL+

Don't like the idea of a summary being used? No problemo


Kaioken wasn't even limited to 4x
Saiyan Saga Goku was >0.745c, and therefore >2.98c in his Kaioken 4x state. Fine.


Namek Saga Pre-Zenkai Goku was >2.98c in base. But you guys would actually use the 4x Kaioken to calculate this Goku's max speed. But that's not the case, Goku stated he would be able to use Kaioken up to 10x even before landing on Namek. He didn't get to use 10x Kaioken before fighting Freeza due to Ginyu's bullshit, so we can't say "well, why didn't he use it then", as he didn't have to.

"Ha, you ding-dong! You lost! He said "I bet", so it's not a fact"
First off, that's obviously exposition foreshadowing the Freeza fight? But aight fam, I gotchu

Here is the raw japanese statement. (It was ungodly difficult to find this for some reason)
Ahem,
"これなら きっと一
10倍ぐらいの
界王拳にだって
たえられるぞ‼"

Which roughly translates to "I'm sure of it. Now my body can withstand even Kaioken x10" from the translations I've seen.
So no, it's not a bet, that's adaptation, you hypothetical moron.

From now on, Kaioken x10 Pré-Zenkai Goku is >29.8c.

Post-Zenkai Base Goku was superior to said kaioken form in Power Level, so it's >>29.8c, that's >>298c with his Kaioken 10x, and >>596c with his Kaioken 20x, and now, with the newly accepted 50x multiplier, Goku is >>1490c with his SSJ form, that's MFTL+

EDIT:
It was also stated in the Daizenshuu.

"地球の100
倍もの重力で
修行し過去のサイヤ人の
限界を打破。界王拳も10
倍まで耐えられるように。"

"Train with 100 times the gravity of the earth and break through the limits of the Saiyans of the past. Kaiouken can withstand up to 10 times."

All of the above
Merging both options we have a SSJ Goku clocked at 3700c. It's still MFTL+



Freeza 100%, SSJ Goku, and those after them should be MFTL+, possibly Kaioken x20 Post-Zenkai Goku too, if you pick the last option.



Next time, on VSBW: "Why "Frieza" is the objectively wrong spelling of the Emperor of the Universe's name"
 
Last edited:
Pretty sure we rejected the 10x training for Namek thingy, even tho I personally have no issues with it. AKM and Damage do hold issues with the multipliers in general tho, but ultimately they were outvoted and MFTL was all that remained. So the KKx10 statement is prolly your best bet.
 
KLOL506 said:
Pretty sure we rejected the 10x training for Namek thingy, even tho I personally have no issues with it. AKM and Damage do hold issues with the multipliers in general tho, but ultimately they were outvoted and MFTL was all that remained. So the KKx10 statement is prolly your best bet.
Click to expand...
Power Levels did seem sort of linear after Kaioken was introduced, so I really don't know the reasoning behind the rejection in general. But yeah, I won't force the statement to go through. The Kaioken 10x statement is a whole other story, this is as solid as a statement as you can get.
 
Yeah, we had a lengthy discussion, and it was agreed that what we have now is the most middle ground compromise without resorting to golden egg fallacy. But the ten fold argument was rejected yeah.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Yeah, we had a lengthy discussion, and it was agreed that what we have now is the most middle ground compromise without resorting to golden egg fallacy. But the ten fold argument was rejected yeah.
Click to expand...
So even Goku saying he could use Kaioken x10, which is... considerably more than the four-limit assumed on the profile, doesn't change anything?
Welp, that sucks. Time to make the CRT about the correct way of spelling Freeza then 😈
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Yeah, we had a lengthy discussion, and it was agreed that what we have now is the most middle ground compromise without resorting to golden egg fallacy. But the ten fold argument was rejected yeah.
Click to expand...
I believe most of the contention was around the Namek stuff and not necessarily the KKx10 stuff.
 
AKM sama said:
Thanks for reminding me how ****** DB's speed ratings are due to heavy multiplier abuse and not a single feat to back it up. I should try to create a thread to address this situation.
Click to expand...
I got feats but apparently 26,292,957c is an outlier.
 
AKM sama said:
Thanks for reminding me how ****** DB's speed ratings are due to heavy multiplier abuse and not a single feat to back it up. I should try to create a thread to address this situation.
Click to expand...
Oh I will fight you-

But really though, having MFTL+ feats without heavy focus on inter-universal distances is very rough.
 
I may not agree with MFTL+ prior to DBS, but I do not agree with the extremism as of late. AKM has never really explained why he disagrees other than "He doesn't like Multipliers" which is fine, but the next thing is intentionally fabricating the math. Everything is literally done with mathematic accuracy with some lowballs in mind. But we either continue using it, or don't use multipliers at all an just make everyone "At least Relativistic+, likely far higher". Trying to lowball Frieza to FTL or FTL+ would just be a Golden Egg fallacy as there's no reason to consider Kaioken x4 a 2x speed multiplier. The statements outright make it an 2 to 10x for both AP and speed. Not to mention we had hundreds of discussions for why Kaioken multipliers are legit.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I may not agree with MFTL+ prior to DBS, but I do not agree with the extremism as of late. AKM has never really explained why he disagrees other than "He doesn't like Multipliers" which is fine, but the next thing is intentionally fabricating the math. Everything is literally done with mathematic accuracy with some lowballs in mind. But we either continue using it, or don't use multipliers at all an just make everyone "At least Relativistic+, likely far higher". Trying to lowball Frieza to FTL or FTL+ would just be a Golden Egg fallacy as there's no reason to consider Kaioken x4 a 2x speed multiplier. The statements outright make it an 2 to 10x for both AP and speed. Not to mention we had hundreds of discussions for why Kaioken multipliers are legit.
Click to expand...
I agree with DDM. Trying to downplay DB to FTL because "No feats faster than Relativistic to support MFTL via multipliers therefore multipliers = outliers" especially in the face of Kaio-Ken being repeatedly hammered down to be a linear multiplier would be nothing more than lying to ourselves and to be hypocritical. Either you accept all of it or you accept none of it, there's no in-between.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I may not agree with MFTL+ prior to DBS, but I do not agree with the extremism as of late. AKM has never really explained why he disagrees other than "He doesn't like Multipliers" which is fine, but the next thing is intentionally fabricating the math. Everything is literally done with mathematic accuracy with some lowballs in mind. But we either continue using it, or don't use multipliers at all an just make everyone "At least Relativistic+, likely far higher". Trying to lowball Frieza to FTL or FTL+ would just be a Golden Egg fallacy as there's no reason to consider Kaioken x4 a 2x speed multiplier. The statements outright make it an 2 to 10x for both AP and speed. Not to mention we had hundreds of discussions for why Kaioken multipliers are legit.
Click to expand...
I do agree with that notion. Between Dragon Ball Z and Dragon Ball Super, we went from a .7c feat to a 200 quadrillion c feats, and even more so when trans-universal distances were focused more on the show.


Using reasonable multipliers is far better than simply banging our heads against the wall with "likely far higher" statements, it's not even "abusive" use of said multipliers. If you think about it, when was the last time Toriyama gave us ANY feat to support even the Sub-Relativistic rating for DB after Namek? None. We had none prior to DBS. Speed feats were clearly meaningless at this point when the plot was mostly Earth-centered, so Multipliers and Transformations are the only way the original manga could translate progression in power.

Better than say "Well, DBZ when from Rel+ to Quadrillion times FTL, what happens in the middle is a complete mystery", we could very well use the more reasonable multipliers to give these featless characters any kind of speed rating that's not the ">>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Rel+"/"likely far higher"
 
KLOL506 said:
I agree with DDM. Trying to downplay DB to FTL because "No feats faster than Relativistic to support MFTL via multipliers therefore multipliers = outliers" especially in the face of Kaio-Ken being repeatedly hammered down to be a linear multiplier would be nothing more than lying to ourselves and to be hypocritical. Either you accept all of it or you accept none of it, there's no in-between.
Click to expand...
Agreed.
 
All and all, with the current accepted multipliers, DBZ should be MFTL and likely MFTL+, if you have a problem with what's currently accepted, then that's a whooole other story.
 
A lot of strawman there.

I never said to discard all the multipliers. I never said I didn't like multipliers. I never said to consider a kaioken x4 a x2 just for the hell of it. I never said kaioken multiplers are not legit.

And I have already explained why I disagree with the current state of profiles plenty of times. The higher the multiplier, the greater is the burden of proof. Going from 0.7c to 3c based on multipliers, sure. No big deal. Small jump, believable, doesn't require extraordinary evidence. From there to 30c, okay. A bit bigger jump but can be explained with the constant rise in power level. To 90c, also fine, no biggie.

But when you claim that your character is 500c or something from a 0.7c feat, that is a massive jump and your burden of proof increases with it proportionally. With no feat coming close to this level in the show, and the next best feat is 0.7c, you can't really claim that your character is 500c based on multiplier stacking alone. That's not enough backing.

Also, the mentality of "either use it or don't use it" is extremely flawed and leads to extreme ends. You're basically saying that we should either go for extreme wank or extreme downplay, when you can just... apply common sense and logic and know when to stop because your numbers don't have sufficient backing.

Several people, including staff, have expressed their disapproval of the state of DB's speed. And I plan to address the issue when I get time. Until then, that's all I'll speak on the topic.
 
AKM sama said:
A lot of strawman there.

I never said to discard all the multipliers. I never said I didn't like multipliers. I never said to consider a kaioken x4 a x2 just for the hell of it. I never said kaioken multiplers are not legit.

And I have already explained why I disagree with the current state of profiles plenty of times. The higher the multiplier, the greater is the burden of proof. Going from 0.7c to 3c based on multipliers, sure. No big deal. Small jump, believable, doesn't require extraordinary evidence. From there to 30c, okay. A bit bigger jump but can be explained with the constant rise in power level. To 90c, also fine, no biggie.

But when you claim that your character is 500c or something from a 0.7c feat, that is a massive jump and your burden of proof increases with it proportionally. With no feat coming close to this level in the show, and the next best feat is 0.7c, you can't really claim that your character is 500c based on multiplier stacking alone. That's not enough backing.

Also, the mentality of "either use it or don't use it" is extremely flawed and leads to extreme ends. You're basically saying that we should either go for extreme wank or extreme downplay, when you can just... apply common sense and logic and know when to stop because your numbers don't have sufficient backing.

Several people, including staff, have expressed their disapproval of the state of DB's speed. And I plan to address the issue when I get time. Until then, that's all I'll speak on the topic.
Click to expand...
Seems very arbitrary, all these subsequent jumps use the same feat, and the same multiplier, and the lack of anti-feats, considering how far the feats are on the beginning of Z to the beginning of Super, saying 500c is too much for a series which eventually hit a multiple digit MFTL+ rating out of nowhere is not fair whatsoever.
As proved by someone else, even if you say each character superior to said Rel+ feat is barely 1.1x faster, we would reach MFTL+ anyway.
 
AKM sama said:
A lot of strawman there.

I never said to discard all the multipliers. I never said I didn't like multipliers. I never said to consider a kaioken x4 a x2 just for the hell of it. I never said kaioken multiplers are not legit.

And I have already explained why I disagree with the current state of profiles plenty of times. The higher the multiplier, the greater is the burden of proof. Going from 0.7c to 3c based on multipliers, sure. No big deal. Small jump, believable, doesn't require extraordinary evidence. From there to 30c, okay. A bit bigger jump but can be explained with the constant rise in power level. To 90c, also fine, no biggie.

But when you claim that your character is 500c or something from a 0.7c feat, that is a massive jump and your burden of proof increases with it proportionally. With no feat coming close to this level in the show, and the next best feat is 0.7c, you can't really claim that your character is 500c based on multiplier stacking alone. That's not enough backing.

Also, the mentality of "either use it or don't use it" is extremely flawed and leads to extreme ends. You're basically saying that we should either go for extreme wank or extreme downplay, when you can just... apply common sense and logic and know when to stop because your numbers don't have sufficient backing.

Several people, including staff, have expressed their disapproval of the state of DB's speed. And I plan to address the issue when I get time. Until then, that's all I'll speak on the topic.
Click to expand...
So you just wanna cap off at FTL+ while completely ignoring why KKx20 and SSJ1's 50x multipliers are a thing. Can't tell if that's utter denial of the math being outright thrown in our faces thereby debunking the need of a burden of proof in the first place or if it's just being arbitrary for the sake of being arbitrary using "apply common sense and logic and know when to stop because your numbers don't have sufficient backing" as a poor veil.
 
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