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Let's go over MFTL+ Dragon Ball Z

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Tyranno223 said:
For the record, from my experience, this wiki doesn't 100% work off objective fact. There's a reason, that possibly/likely, tiers exist. Plus several verses like OPM have had scaling switched around via things being likely.
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A possibly is literally how to stay objective.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Now, last I checked, I think AKM is fine with Massively FTL now that the math was checked. I think the only thing he's skeptical about was just comparing 1st form Frieza to Kaioken x4 Pre-Zenkai Goku but is fine with using Kaioken x2 since he unleashes it with an official PL read caught on scouter.
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Basically this, yes.

GodlyCharmander said:
"even once I'm healed, I'm not sure I can beat him when he's like this..." (keep in mind that Goku had no knowledge that he'd get stronger, as he knew little to nothing about the Zenkai, and he was even surprised by getting stronger)
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This statement at least resolves my problem with considering kaioken x4 in the scaling chain since it at least establishes that Goku in kk x4 should be a bit weaker than third form Freeza.

As for the kaioken x10 thing. I'd like to see the source for the translation you used in the OP, as I can't just take your word for it when every other English translation I have read makes it sound like Goku was just super pumped up and hyped after completing the training and experiencing the normal gravity where he felt weightless and strong. While I am not saying it has to be dead wrong or makes no sense, I am not too big on the reliability of the statement delivered in this sense, and would not include it to keep the scaling conservative and to the hard facts with no assumptions. (I have also asked my friend for the translation btw.)
 
AKM sama said:
Basically this, yes.


This statement at least resolves my problem with considering kaioken x4 in the scaling chain since it at least establishes that Goku in kk x4 should be a bit weaker than third form Freeza.

As for the kaioken x10 thing. I'd like to see the source for the translation you used in the OP, as I can't just take your word for it when every other English translation I have read makes it sound like Goku was just super pumped up and hyped after completing the training and experiencing the normal gravity where he felt weightless and strong. While I am not saying it has to be dead wrong or makes no sense, I am not too big on the reliability of the statement delivered in this sense, and would not include it to keep the scaling conservative and to the hard facts with no assumptions. (I have also asked my friend for the translation btw.)
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Valid concerns, valid concerns.

giphy.gif
 
AKM sama said:
As for the kaioken x10 thing. I'd like to see the source for the translation you used in the OP, as I can't just take your word for it when every other English translation I have read makes it sound like Goku was just super pumped up and hyped after completing the training and experiencing the normal gravity where he felt weightless and strong. While I am not saying it has to be dead wrong or makes no sense, I am not too big on the reliability of the statement delivered in this sense, and would not include it to keep the scaling conservative and to the hard facts with no assumptions. (I have also asked my friend for the translation btw.)
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I mean, first and foremost, I gave you the transcript for his words, you can check with friends, as you did, or put it in a translator. You can also just compare the transcript to the actual quote in japanese to see if it's 1-to-1. Goku said he was sure of it, and he has the authority to know the limits to his own body, so I think it's pretty solid.

Also, I went out of my way to ask Japanese Speakers on Reddit r/translators too, here. (It has no reply as of now, but it'll probably have by tomorrow)

And secondly, it was also stated in the Daizenshuu, basically negating the possibility of being an overestimation, I posted it in the OP as an EDIT, also gave the transcript, but here is a translated french version too.

"Il fut alors capable de décupler un Kaioken."
"He was then able to multiply tenfold the Kaioken"

décupler = multiply something by 10.

Oh, btw.
AKM sama said:
This statement at least resolves my problem with considering kaioken x4 in the scaling chain since it at least establishes that Goku in kk x4 should be a bit weaker than third form Freeza.
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Why isn't Pre-Zenkai Goku High 5-A+ with Kaioken x4 then?
 
GodlyCharmander said:
Oh, btw.

Why isn't Pre-Zenkai Goku High 5-A+ with Kaioken x4 then?
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Why would he be High 5-A+ in Pre-Zenkai form in the first place? At best he would only be deeper into Planet level via his base being stronger than his Saiyan Saga KKx4 self (Saiyan Saga KKx3 Goku is baseline Planet level or 2.49e+32 J, divide by 3 and Saiyan Saga base Goku is 8.3e+31 J, KKx4 on this is 3.32e+32 J), Kaio-Ken times 4 on Pre-Zenkai Namek Saga Base Goku is 1.328e+33 J, still Planet level.

Only Post-Zenkai Goku should be High 5-A, full stop.
 
KLOL506 said:
Why would he be High 5-A+ in Pre-Zenkai form in the first place? At best he would only be deeper into Planet level via his base being stronger than his Saiyan Saga KKx4 self (Saiyan Saga KKx3 Goku is baseline Planet level or 2.49e+32 J, divide by 3 and Saiyan Saga base Goku is 8.3e+31 J, KKx4 on this is 3.32e+32 J), Kaio-Ken times 4 on Pre-Zenkai Namek Saga Base Goku is 1.328e+33 J, still Planet level.

Only Post-Zenkai Goku should be High 5-A, full stop.
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Stop with the joules and stuff, we're talking about Dragon Ball Z with it's stupid scaling.

The statement that Goku was unsure that he would win against 3rd Form Freeza implies that Pre-Zenkai Goku at full power and 3rd Form Freeza were relative to each other.


Pre-Zenkai Goku (Kaioken x4-10) ~ 3rd Form Freeza >> Piccolo-Nail => 2nd Form Freeza > 1st Form Freeza = High 5-A > Pre-Zenkai Goku (Kaioken x2) > Ginyu > Pre-Zenkai Goku (base) >>> Saiyan Saga Goku (Kaioken x4) => Vegeta = 5-B
 
GodlyCharmander said:
Also, I went out of my way to ask Japanese Speakers on Reddit r/translators too, here. (It has no reply as of now, but it'll probably have by tomorrow)
Click to expand...
Ay, someone replied!

EDIT:

Translator: "With this, I can probably even withstand a Kaiouken 10 times [as strong]."

Me: "Oh, so he does say "probably" then?"

Translator: "Sorry, he says "certainly"."


I rest my case
 
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Nevermind that. Did some research and found that it was already translated by our lord and savior, Herms.

Chapter: 270 (DBZ 76), P11.1-4
Context: Goku has turned the gravity back down to 1g.
Goku: “Hwoo!!! I…I feel so light… …It’s like I’m not even here!!! Hoo hoo hoo!!! I’m light, I’m light! And strong, strong! Like this, I can definitely withstand about a 10-fold Kaio-Ken!”

Chapter: 302 (DBZ 108), P7.3-4
Context: after Freeza reaches his third form
Goku: “Damn it...What’s happening…?! Freeza’s ki got stronger again! Now even if my body’s fully healed, I might not be able to beat him…What should I do?...I give up…”

The first could still be something said in hype because he was pumped up, going by the surrounding context. But I won't claim that Goku is someone who boasts about himself willy-nilly. I am glad you found the second statement though, since now there is at least some official basis instead of going off on assumptions.
 
AKM sama said:
The first could still be something said in hype because he was pumped up, going by the surrounding context. But I won't claim that Goku is someone who boasts about himself willy-nilly. I am glad you found the second statement though, since now there is at least some official basis instead of going off on assumptions.
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Yeah. Considering this, should the chain be updated to consider Post-Zk Base Goku > Pre-Zk KKx10 Goku?
 
Oh damn. Never thought Herms would have come to save the day. Well ****.
 
GodlyCharmander said:
Yeah. Considering this, should the chain be updated to consider Post-Zk Base Goku > Pre-Zk KKx10 Goku?
Click to expand...
Well, I included this in my personal blog at least. It kind of aggravates my problem with characters reaching MFTL+ based on a single Relativistic+ feat with no other feat to show for in between such a huge jump. Generally, such cases are denied for lack of supporting evidence. Since I don't want this problem to be escalated to other verses, I should probably make a staff discussion thread on the topic in general and we'll see where it goes from there.
 
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AKM sama said:
Well, I included this in my personal blog at least. It kind of aggravates my problem with characters reaching MFTL+ based on a single Relativistic+ feat with no other feat to show for in between such a huge jump. Generally, such cases are denied for lack of supporting evidence. Since I don't want this problem to be escalated to other verses, I should probably make a staff discussion thread on the topic in general and we'll see where it goes from there.
Click to expand...
I agree, a discussion about how it's handled would be great.
Although, giving my 2 cents on the future discussion, I personally believe that it should be a case-by-case situation, DBZ is featless in terms of speed post Saiyan Saga, and has no Anti-Feats that I know of. And DBS has an absurd MFTL+ feat. So considering the gap between both feats, having anything that can tell us a low-end number for these featless character's progressions should be okay.
 
AKM sama said:
Well, I included this in my personal blog at least. It kind of aggravates my problem with characters reaching MFTL+ based on a single Relativistic+ feat with no other feat to show for in between such a huge jump. Generally, such cases are denied for lack of supporting evidence. Since I don't want this problem to be escalated to other verses, I should probably make a staff discussion thread on the topic in general and we'll see where it goes from there.
Click to expand...
Also, regardless of the decision regarding speed, Pre-Zenkai Goku should be High 5-A with Kaioken x4~10 for scaling far above 1st Form Freeza
 
GodlyCharmander said:
And DBS has an absurd MFTL+ feat. So considering the gap between both feats
Click to expand...
This doesn't work as an excuse since DBS gave a major boost with the god transformation which made them go from 4-B to 3-A.
 
AKM sama said:
This doesn't work as an excuse since DBS gave a major boost with the god transformation which made them go from 4-B to 3-A.
Click to expand...
Yes, but if there's a constant and consistent progression in speed, why should we list them as "far above that one feat they outscale by an Immeasurable amount" instead of giving a number which would be a Low Ball?

Because if that's the case, Dragon Ball shouldn't even be FTL period.

I mean, that's not something to discuss here, Kaioken multipliers are currently accepted, so, if Kaioken x10 is accepted, we should apply the changes for now, right?
 
The argument itself doesn't make sense because of multiple reasons.
1- the story intends to use the multipliers, blitzing feats, outpacing, outrunning etc...as a way to show how fast they are
2- this is fiction, ' numbers too high' 'impossible, he can't mind hax an absract being ' 'he can't manipulate concepts via martial arts ' is within the realm of possibility because fiction doesn't care that much about what makes sense and what's possible, that's why it's fiction
3- the multipliers are consistent, has ton of feats, scaling, statements that supports them. By that argument you are acknowledging that they are fast, but you don't want to admit, debunk or propose a proper argument. It just shows that you are whining about this verse being strong, or that verse has hax, which just indicates that you are biased and willing to use your status as mods to cockblock verses because you are biased, but at the same time you don't want to post a proper argument
 
GodlyCharmander said:
I mean, that's not something to discuss here, Kaioken multipliers are currently accepted, so, if Kaioken x10 is accepted, we should apply the changes for now, right?
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I suggest you wait a little. I should be able to create the thread on the topic in this week.
 
I rechecked the multipliers page and the thing I wanted to discuss is already there. We do treat multiplier stacking the same way we treat a big multiplier and you'd need sufficient amount of evidence to get it accepted. But since the multiplier for speed and AP is the same, I guess the jump in AP covers that. So it fits the criteria.
Although, that makes the case for DBS a bit weird but that's not for this thread.
 
AKM sama said:
I rechecked the multipliers page and the thing I wanted to discuss is already there. We do treat multiplier stacking the same way we treat a big multiplier and you'd need sufficient amount of evidence to get it accepted. But since the multiplier for speed and AP is the same, I guess the jump in AP covers that. So it fits the criteria.
Although, that makes the case for DBS a bit weird but that's not for this thread.
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I see, so what's the take away here?
Is MFTL+ DBZ be plausible by VSBW Standards? If so, I made a post about which profiles would need to be unlocked and changed in Page 3

GodlyCharmander said:
If I don't have to do this, I will need the following profiles unlocked:

Goku (Dragon Ball Z)
Son Goku (Chou)

Android 16
Android 17
Android 19
Dr. Gero
Android 18
(They're in order of importance)

Cell
Cell Jr.
Dabura
Freeza
Future Gohan
Future Trunks
Gotenks
King Cold
Krillin
Shin
Majin Buu
Son Gohan (Z and Super)
Son Goten
Trunks
Vegeta (Z, Chou and Super)
Vegito
Piccolo
Click to expand...
 
Also, I'd like to ask if Pre-Zenkai Kaioken x10 Goku should be High 5-A by scaling comparatively with 3rd Form Freeza
 
Is MFTL+ DBZ be plausible by VSBW Standards?
Click to expand...
I guess possibly MFTL+ is on the table.

Also, I'd like to ask if Pre-Zenkai Kaioken x10 Goku should be High 5-A by scaling comparatively with 3rd Form Freeza
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I don't know why those two should scale to each other.
 
Didn’t Goku flat out say he isn’t sure if he can take on Frieza when he was in his third form pre-Zenkai? That shoots his scaling in the foot
 
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