DivineAura44
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A possibly is literally how to stay objective.
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Let's go over MFTL+ Dragon Ball Z
- Thread starter GodlyCharmander
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True, but it does show some leniency, by even accepting possibly. Plus cases like Boros scaling to Orochi because of it being narratively likely, still exist.
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Basically this, yes.
This statement at least resolves my problem with considering kaioken x4 in the scaling chain since it at least establishes that Goku in kk x4 should be a bit weaker than third form Freeza.
As for the kaioken x10 thing. I'd like to see the source for the translation you used in the OP, as I can't just take your word for it when every other English translation I have read makes it sound like Goku was just super pumped up and hyped after completing the training and experiencing the normal gravity where he felt weightless and strong. While I am not saying it has to be dead wrong or makes no sense, I am not too big on the reliability of the statement delivered in this sense, and would not include it to keep the scaling conservative and to the hard facts with no assumptions. (I have also asked my friend for the translation btw.)
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Broken URL on on my end; just thought I'd help.
GodlyCharmander
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- #486
I mean, first and foremost, I gave you the transcript for his words, you can check with friends, as you did, or put it in a translator. You can also just compare the transcript to the actual quote in japanese to see if it's 1-to-1. Goku said he was sure of it, and he has the authority to know the limits to his own body, so I think it's pretty solid.
Also, I went out of my way to ask Japanese Speakers on Reddit r/translators too, here. (It has no reply as of now, but it'll probably have by tomorrow)
And secondly, it was also stated in the Daizenshuu, basically negating the possibility of being an overestimation, I posted it in the OP as an EDIT, also gave the transcript, but here is a translated french version too.
"Il fut alors capable de décupler un Kaioken."
"He was then able to multiply tenfold the Kaioken"
décupler = multiply something by 10.
Oh, btw.
Why isn't Pre-Zenkai Goku High 5-A+ with Kaioken x4 then?
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Why would he be High 5-A+ in Pre-Zenkai form in the first place? At best he would only be deeper into Planet level via his base being stronger than his Saiyan Saga KKx4 self (Saiyan Saga KKx3 Goku is baseline Planet level or 2.49e+32 J, divide by 3 and Saiyan Saga base Goku is 8.3e+31 J, KKx4 on this is 3.32e+32 J), Kaio-Ken times 4 on Pre-Zenkai Namek Saga Base Goku is 1.328e+33 J, still Planet level.
Only Post-Zenkai Goku should be High 5-A, full stop.
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Same.
GodlyCharmander
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- #489
Stop with the joules and stuff, we're talking about Dragon Ball Z with it's stupid scaling.
The statement that Goku was unsure that he would win against 3rd Form Freeza implies that Pre-Zenkai Goku at full power and 3rd Form Freeza were relative to each other.
Pre-Zenkai Goku (Kaioken x4-10) ~ 3rd Form Freeza >> Piccolo-Nail => 2nd Form Freeza > 1st Form Freeza = High 5-A > Pre-Zenkai Goku (Kaioken x2) > Ginyu > Pre-Zenkai Goku (base) >>> Saiyan Saga Goku (Kaioken x4) => Vegeta = 5-B
GodlyCharmander
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- #490
Also, translation from Kanzenshuu:
"Arrival on Planet Namek: 90,000
Training under gravity 100 times that of Earth, he breaks through the limits of previous Saiyan. In addition, he is now able to endure the Kaiō-Ken up to x10."
"Arrival on Planet Namek: 90,000
Training under gravity 100 times that of Earth, he breaks through the limits of previous Saiyan. In addition, he is now able to endure the Kaiō-Ken up to x10."
GodlyCharmander
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- #491
Ay, someone replied!
EDIT:
Translator: "With this, I can probably even withstand a Kaiouken 10 times [as strong]."
Me: "Oh, so he does say "probably" then?"
Translator: "Sorry, he says "certainly"."
I rest my case
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Did you also request it to be translated here? I think there's a translation request thread here.
GodlyCharmander
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- #493
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Nevermind that. Did some research and found that it was already translated by our lord and savior, Herms.
Chapter: 270 (DBZ 76), P11.1-4
Context: Goku has turned the gravity back down to 1g.
Goku: “Hwoo!!! I…I feel so light… …It’s like I’m not even here!!! Hoo hoo hoo!!! I’m light, I’m light! And strong, strong! Like this, I can definitely withstand about a 10-fold Kaio-Ken!”
Chapter: 302 (DBZ 108), P7.3-4
Context: after Freeza reaches his third form
Goku: “Damn it...What’s happening…?! Freeza’s ki got stronger again! Now even if my body’s fully healed, I might not be able to beat him…What should I do?...I give up…”
The first could still be something said in hype because he was pumped up, going by the surrounding context. But I won't claim that Goku is someone who boasts about himself willy-nilly. I am glad you found the second statement though, since now there is at least some official basis instead of going off on assumptions.
Chapter: 270 (DBZ 76), P11.1-4
Context: Goku has turned the gravity back down to 1g.
Goku: “Hwoo!!! I…I feel so light… …It’s like I’m not even here!!! Hoo hoo hoo!!! I’m light, I’m light! And strong, strong! Like this, I can definitely withstand about a 10-fold Kaio-Ken!”
Chapter: 302 (DBZ 108), P7.3-4
Context: after Freeza reaches his third form
Goku: “Damn it...What’s happening…?! Freeza’s ki got stronger again! Now even if my body’s fully healed, I might not be able to beat him…What should I do?...I give up…”
The first could still be something said in hype because he was pumped up, going by the surrounding context. But I won't claim that Goku is someone who boasts about himself willy-nilly. I am glad you found the second statement though, since now there is at least some official basis instead of going off on assumptions.
GodlyCharmander
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- #496
Yeah. Considering this, should the chain be updated to consider Post-Zk Base Goku > Pre-Zk KKx10 Goku?
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All hail Herms.
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Well, I included this in my personal blog at least. It kind of aggravates my problem with characters reaching MFTL+ based on a single Relativistic+ feat with no other feat to show for in between such a huge jump. Generally, such cases are denied for lack of supporting evidence. Since I don't want this problem to be escalated to other verses, I should probably make a staff discussion thread on the topic in general and we'll see where it goes from there.
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GodlyCharmander
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- #500
I agree, a discussion about how it's handled would be great.
Although, giving my 2 cents on the future discussion, I personally believe that it should be a case-by-case situation, DBZ is featless in terms of speed post Saiyan Saga, and has no Anti-Feats that I know of. And DBS has an absurd MFTL+ feat. So considering the gap between both feats, having anything that can tell us a low-end number for these featless character's progressions should be okay.
GodlyCharmander
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- #501
Also, regardless of the decision regarding speed, Pre-Zenkai Goku should be High 5-A with Kaioken x4~10 for scaling far above 1st Form Freeza
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This doesn't work as an excuse since DBS gave a major boost with the god transformation which made them go from 4-B to 3-A.
GodlyCharmander
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- #503
Yes, but if there's a constant and consistent progression in speed, why should we list them as "far above that one feat they outscale by an Immeasurable amount" instead of giving a number which would be a Low Ball?
Because if that's the case, Dragon Ball shouldn't even be FTL period.
I mean, that's not something to discuss here, Kaioken multipliers are currently accepted, so, if Kaioken x10 is accepted, we should apply the changes for now, right?
Gilad_Hyperstar
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The argument of "No because nulmbers too high wAnK" is really weak
If those people arguing from this reason got something against these numbers, then show us in story why they don't work, instead of just refusing because reasons, as if they weren't the same when DB was FTL+ and not MFTL+
If those people arguing from this reason got something against these numbers, then show us in story why they don't work, instead of just refusing because reasons, as if they weren't the same when DB was FTL+ and not MFTL+
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The argument itself doesn't make sense because of multiple reasons.
1- the story intends to use the multipliers, blitzing feats, outpacing, outrunning etc...as a way to show how fast they are
2- this is fiction, ' numbers too high' 'impossible, he can't mind hax an absract being ' 'he can't manipulate concepts via martial arts ' is within the realm of possibility because fiction doesn't care that much about what makes sense and what's possible, that's why it's fiction
3- the multipliers are consistent, has ton of feats, scaling, statements that supports them. By that argument you are acknowledging that they are fast, but you don't want to admit, debunk or propose a proper argument. It just shows that you are whining about this verse being strong, or that verse has hax, which just indicates that you are biased and willing to use your status as mods to cockblock verses because you are biased, but at the same time you don't want to post a proper argument
1- the story intends to use the multipliers, blitzing feats, outpacing, outrunning etc...as a way to show how fast they are
2- this is fiction, ' numbers too high' 'impossible, he can't mind hax an absract being ' 'he can't manipulate concepts via martial arts ' is within the realm of possibility because fiction doesn't care that much about what makes sense and what's possible, that's why it's fiction
3- the multipliers are consistent, has ton of feats, scaling, statements that supports them. By that argument you are acknowledging that they are fast, but you don't want to admit, debunk or propose a proper argument. It just shows that you are whining about this verse being strong, or that verse has hax, which just indicates that you are biased and willing to use your status as mods to cockblock verses because you are biased, but at the same time you don't want to post a proper argument
GodlyCharmander
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- #506
Just to add to this, the multipliers are very, VERY consistent with Power, showing they're actually intended to be used.
Nullflowerblush
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Nah nah, the author clearly just put them there so he can draw red goku-
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If shit has been stated to be a certain boost, I have no idea why it’s ignored
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I suggest you wait a little. I should be able to create the thread on the topic in this week.
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What about this?
GodlyCharmander
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- #512
I see. I will be looking forward to it, then.
Please, I ask you to inform me when the thread is created.
GodlyCharmander
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- #513
I think that's also going to be part of the topic, if multipliers are going to be discussed as a whole.
But that's regardless of them, so yeah, he should still be updated.
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I rechecked the multipliers page and the thing I wanted to discuss is already there. We do treat multiplier stacking the same way we treat a big multiplier and you'd need sufficient amount of evidence to get it accepted. But since the multiplier for speed and AP is the same, I guess the jump in AP covers that. So it fits the criteria.
Although, that makes the case for DBS a bit weird but that's not for this thread.
Although, that makes the case for DBS a bit weird but that's not for this thread.
GodlyCharmander
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- #515
I see, so what's the take away here?
Is MFTL+ DBZ be plausible by VSBW Standards? If so, I made a post about which profiles would need to be unlocked and changed in Page 3
GodlyCharmander
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- #516
Also, I'd like to ask if Pre-Zenkai Kaioken x10 Goku should be High 5-A by scaling comparatively with 3rd Form Freeza
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bump, get this shit over with.
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Didn’t Goku flat out say he isn’t sure if he can take on Frieza when he was in his third form pre-Zenkai? That shoots his scaling in the foot
Nullflowerblush
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