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Let's go over MFTL+ Dragon Ball Z

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DarkDragonMedeus said:
This again? Are we really using flight speed as an excuse to downplay combat speeds again?

Anyway, their flight speeds are really only comparable to combat speed and attack speed in short bursts; their long term flight speed is typically much slower than their combat speeds. But their combat speed and short burst flight speed, is typically comparable if not superior to their ki blast attack speeds. Piccolo's feat is very blatant and they've only gotten superior. All "Anti-feats" are only for flight speed and not combat speed, and others are just typical, "Dragon Ball characters goof around all the time."

Anyway, the difference is that Kaioken multipliers are 100% in our faces and it's literally explained in every source that it multiplies AP, Speed, and Durability linearly. Frieza's Death Beams also have their own FTL statements in the Kaizenshuu which Goku struggled against a toying Frieza in base but literally casually plays with a serious Frieza in SSJ form. So the gaps are very blatant, not to mention, there's still a bunch of obvious gaps even outside of multipliers that we didn't even taken into account. So if anything, the multipliers alone are a lowball.
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DDM, I would really like your input about the Kaioken x10 being available before the Zenkai, as stated by Goku himself, and confirmed in the Daizenshuu too.


You said you disagreed with it, seemed to be because of the end result being MFTL+ rather than the statement being valid or not. Can you please elaborate?
 
In lack of better options, I really think it would be preferable not to use it. It was hard enough to get them Massively FTL to begin with, and Massively FTL+ just seems to be something that's going to tempt other staff members in wanting to do the opposite extreme. I personally wouldn't have been against it, but the policies, PL numbers and the like and Goku not being entirely certain that he could go Kaioken x10 during Ginyu saga seemed too hypothetical.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
In lack of better options, I really think it would be preferable not to use it. It was hard enough to get them Massively FTL to begin with, and Massively FTL+ just seems to be something that's going to tempt other staff members in wanting to do the opposite extreme. I personally wouldn't have been against it, but the policies, PL numbers and the like and Goku not being entirely certain that he could go Kaioken x10 during Ginyu saga seemed too hypothetical.
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I mean the only true debunking arguments that were presented here are literally "too high I don't like it"
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
In lack of better options, I really think it would be preferable not to use it. It was hard enough to get them Massively FTL to begin with, and Massively FTL+ just seems to be something that's going to tempt other staff members in wanting to do the opposite extreme. I personally wouldn't have been against it, but the policies, PL numbers and the like and Goku not being entirely certain that he could go Kaioken x10 during Ginyu saga seemed too hypothetical.
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This is coming from... precaution? I get it, but this is just-- I mean, bias is not the right word, but- Goku was certain in the Japanese statement, and it was confirmed in the Daizenshuu that he could do it before Ginyu. The only way this get any more solid would be Goku literally using it, which he had no reason to.

If the Staff try to downplay them, they'll only get refuted by everyone. Now, if you think they'll downplay it by force, that'd just be corruption.

You shouldn't make decisions based on what other Staff Members should do, tbh. Just give your honest opinion considering the evidence presented.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Frieza's Death Beams also have their own FTL statements in the Kaizenshuu.
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This does not exist. "Kaizenshuu" is also not a thing, Kanzenshuu exists but that's a fan website and I do not recall the Daizenshuu having any statement like that.
 
This would probably come harsh from me and I'm sorry in advance:
if your only debunks [it's not direct to anyone so don't worry or..do~] are just "numbers too hight" "maybe goku wasn't sure " "I mean it could be hyperbolic " "goku and the daizenshu aren't a reliable source, only the very grandparents of Akira are" please just get out from this thread, these aren't arguments, it's just attempting to lowball the verse, but you are too much of a pussy to admit that you want to downplay, but not have the necessary arguments to back up your claims
 
Huzy said:
This does not exist. "Kaizenshuu" is also not a thing, Kanzenshuu exists but that's a fan website and I do not recall the Daizenshuu having any statement like that.
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It was states in some Mexican guide about them being beams of light, but they were rejected I think
 
FanofRPGs used to have another source on one of his blogs that outright said "Faster than Light" not just beams of light. And it was Daizenshuu. But even so, being much faster than someone who's Relativistic+ can logically make people into FTL territory. Besides, reaching interplanetary area of effects in matter of seconds is also fairly consistent with every animated adaptation of Dragon Ball.

As for the tenfold statement, I know PL's are not linear, but this is a 90000 to 3000000 jump. And does tenfold refer to speed and not just power in the specific statement again? I know Goku logically can use Kaioken x4 during Ginyu saga with Frieza saga Goku being far above even that, but I'm unsure if the tenfold statement is really that specific. There were a few other staff that were okay with using it, I think @Ogbunabali was it? Also, it actually is part of the rules that we need input from multiple staff members to get something accepted. And the rule basically goes double for verses that are heavily popular and/or controversial.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
FanofRPGs used to have another source on one of his blogs that outright said "Faster than Light" not just beams of light. And it was Daizenshuu. But even so, being much faster than someone who's Relativistic+ can logically make people into FTL territory. Besides, reaching interplanetary area of effects in matter of seconds is also fairly consistent with every animated adaptation of Dragon Ball.

As for the tenfold statement, I know PL's are not linear, but this is a 90000 to 3000000 jump. And does tenfold refer to speed and not just power in the specific statement again? I know Goku logically can use Kaioken x4 during Ginyu saga with Frieza saga Goku being far above even that, but I'm unsure if the tenfold statement is really that specific. There were a few other staff that were okay with using it, I think @Ogbunabali was it? Also, it actually is part of the rules that we need input from multiple staff members to get something accepted. And the rule basically goes double for verses that are heavily popular and/or controversial.
Click to expand...
The ten fold statement [correct me if I'm wrong] refers to him being able to use KK10, we currently scale base frieza fight goku above kk4 pre frieza fight goku, but with the statement, we would be scaling him off kk10
[I might have skipped some details so the best thing is to read the op]
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
FanofRPGs used to have another source on one of his blogs that outright said "Faster than Light" not just beams of light. And it was Daizenshuu. But even so, being much faster than someone who's Relativistic+ can logically make people into FTL territory. Besides, reaching interplanetary area of effects in matter of seconds is also fairly consistent with every animated adaptation of Dragon Ball.

As for the tenfold statement, I know PL's are not linear, but this is a 90000 to 3000000 jump. And does tenfold refer to speed and not just power in the specific statement again? I know Goku logically can use Kaioken x4 during Ginyu saga with Frieza saga Goku being far above even that, but I'm unsure if the tenfold statement is really that specific. There were a few other staff that were okay with using it, I think @Ogbunabali was it? Also, it actually is part of the rules that we need input from multiple staff members to get something accepted. And the rule basically goes double for verses that are heavily popular and/or controversial.
Click to expand...
No, no, no, we are not using the ten-fold statement, it's from a volume summary, refers to both Speed and Power.

We're using this:
"If that's the case. I'm SURE my body can withstand even Kaioken x10"

This is Goku before landing on Namek stating he could use Kaioken x10. So Ginyu Saga Goku can use Kaioken 10x.

This was confirmed by the Daizenshuu

"Landing on Namek
Battle Power: 90000
After training under
100x Earth Gravity,
Goku broke the
limits of the
saiyans of the past.
Can use the Kaioken x10"
 
GodlyCharmander said:
Heeey, Seth might be a wanker, but we don't hate him THAT much
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I don't care about Roshi being 5C. I think it's fine that the Wiki is equally strict with upgrading any of the 5 main verses here ( Marvel, Naruto, Bleach, DC and Dragonball). But the fact that they changed their entire stance just because he made a (very insulting) video makes him a "powerful person" in the power scaling community. He kinda wins every debate. I think only KurotheArtist ever clapped him
 
SirAlex09 said:
I don't care about Roshi being 5C. I think it's fine that the Wiki is equally strict with upgrading any of the 5 main verses here ( Marvel, Naruto, Bleach, DC and Dragonball). But the fact that they changed their entire stance just because he made a (very insulting) video makes him a "powerful person" in the power scaling community. He kinda wins every debate. I think only KurotheArtist ever clapped him
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I mean, weren't there three moon feats and one moon statement?
 
SirAlex09 said:
I don't care about Roshi being 5C. I think it's fine that the Wiki is equally strict with upgrading any of the 5 main verses here ( Marvel, Naruto, Bleach, DC and Dragonball). But the fact that they changed their entire stance just because he made a (very insulting) video makes him a "powerful person" in the power scaling community. He kinda wins every debate. I think only KurotheArtist ever clapped him
Click to expand...
He gets clapped in some subjects, but DB and stuff, he usually uses tactics to win a debate. The point of debating for him is not to convey information and clash it with your "opponent", it's to prove you're objectively wrong and he is right. He rarely concedes.
 
Imma wait with you too-
Tho I wonder, do we take frieza saying "I'm only using 1% ..20% ...50%..100%" seriously btw?
 
Orange said:
Imma wait with you too-
Tho I wonder, do we take frieza saying "I'm only using 1% ..20% ...50%..100%" seriously btw?
Click to expand...
Pretty sure we do at least for 50% and 100%

Though when did Final Form Frieza used 1% of his full power? I would like to see the scan if possible
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Pretty sure we do at least for 50% and 100%

Though when did Final Form Frieza used 1% of his full power? I would like to see the scan if possible
Click to expand...
I just though of it, I only remember him saying 20 % I think, lemme see if I can even find it
Couldn't find it damn it
 
GodlyCharmander said:
Brazilian idiot Seiya fanboy that kept DB under Moon Level for years and downplays literally anything he wants.
Ex-Staff
Click to expand...
Don't insult people like that.

Anyway, what's even going on in this thread atm? I made a blog earlier when I noticed that the pages don't link to any blog that explains what level of speed is accepted. According to this, even if you be conservative, the speeds would reach MFTL, and I'm fine with that.

vsbattles.fandom.com

Dragon Ball Z: Speed Scaling

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
 
AKM sama said:
Don't insult people like that.

Anyway, what's even going on in this thread atm? I made a blog earlier when I noticed that the pages don't link to any blog that explains what level of speed is accepted. According to this, even if you be conservative, the speeds would reach MFTL, and I'm fine with that.

vsbattles.fandom.com

Dragon Ball Z: Speed Scaling

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
Click to expand...
I mean, DDM's blog also didn't go beyond MFTL.
 
If you're referring to the blog that covers very much everything from AP to speed etc. I think that is not linked on the profiles. And explaining the accepted speed ratings should be handled in a separate blog specifically dedicated to that so as to avoid any potential confusions and keep it more direct.
 
The premise in the OP has already been rejected in a previous thread and nothing new has been brought up.
 
AKM sama said:
Don't insult people like that.
Click to expand...
Don't even start.
AKM sama said:
Anyway, what's even going on in this thread atm? I made a blog earlier when I noticed that the pages don't link to any blog that explains what level of speed is accepted. According to this, even if you be conservative, the speeds would reach MFTL, and I'm fine with that.
Click to expand...
You assumed Ginyu Saga Goku can't even go Kaioken 4x, which he has literally been able to do so in a weaker state. That is nonsensical.

How Pre-Zenkai Goku Kaioken 10x was compared to Freeza is utterly irrelevant. How are you failing to see this?
What are you saying? That we don't know how strong this Goku would be? We do. A BP of 900,000. Inferior to Post-Zenkai Goku.

See, there's NUMBERS!!!

Post-Zenkai Goku has a BP of 3,000,000 so he scales above Kaioken x10.

It has official details about it. It was confirmed by two reliable sources, Daizenshuu and Goku himself, so Ginyu Saga Goku being able to go Kaioken 10x is pretty much a fact
 
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