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We already settled this in the Battle of Gods speed revision including the anti-feats, travel speed is absolutely not going to be downgraded.
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Let's go over MFTL+ Dragon Ball Z
- Thread starter GodlyCharmander
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Gilad_Hyperstar
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Can you list these so called anti feats?
GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 5,744
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- #244
Who... cares? It's a literal non-combative, irrelevant, and shitty attribute that is not even treated seriously by the manga. Why do we need to prove consistency for something nearly useless in-canon? When did we even need to do this for ANY other accepted multiplier?
You're expecting far too much for a Kid's Show
GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 5,744
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- #245
"Well, the travel speed, the non-combative, and most useless attribute is not consistent, I guess we have to discard the multipliers altogether for Combat Speed, Reaction Speed, Power, Durability and Destructive Capacity because of that 
"
Yeah, no. Because one attribute, which is treated as irrelevant for most of the times, is not mathematically consistent, does not mean we have to discard it for everything else.
"Yeah, no. Because one attribute, which is treated as irrelevant for most of the times, is not mathematically consistent, does not mean we have to discard it for everything else.
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Here we go again.
What applies in Super applies in tandem to the original manga and the OG Dragon Ball without the Z. We discussed the OG Z anime as well in that same damn thread.
Also if you'd be kind enough to post these anti-feats, go right ahead. Just remember tho, PIS is a massive no-no.
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Sure, half of the Dragon Team gets killed because Goku isn't fast enough to cross the Serpent Road instantly and instead takes over a day to do so.
Goku barely avoids death because his speed isn't enough to reach Freeza's ship instantly.
Goku uses Instant Transmission but Vegeta believes it was just super speed so he shows him Roshi's glasses, the Kame House is then stated to be 10000 km away, we then get a panel of Vegeta looking angry meaning he accepts the notion that this feat isn't possible with simple super speed.
Kuririn mentions that he'll go full speed to catch Bulma's ship midway which will take 20 minutes to reach the Kame House.
Piccolo took the amount of time Gotenks napped to reach his location in the Buu saga and looked visibly exhausted.
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Didn't it take Gotenks more than a few seconds to circle the earth a handful of times?
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If this isn't consistent for one attribute why should we apply the same multipliers to others with no feats to back the over 2000× difference up? And travel speed isn't non important in Dragon Ball at all, the first half of the Saiyan fight hinges on Goku's travel speed not being enough."Well, the travel speed, the non-combative, and most useless attribute is not consistent, I guess we have to discard the multipliers altogether for Combat Speed, Reaction Speed, Power, Durability and Destructive Capacity because of that
Yeah, no. Because one attribute, which is treated as irrelevant for most of the times, is not mathematically consistent, does not mean we have to discard it for everything else.
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Buddy
Those are travel speed feats
In combat, it's useless
Tho if you want, people also constantly blitz, outpace, outran, and block, dodge or evade these ki blasts and punches
Travel speed is useless
Usain bolt can run faster than Bruce lee, but Bruce lee kicks faster than Usain bolt
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You siad it "travel speed " meaning it's different than "combat speed "
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Bruh
There are multiple showings of DB characters keeping up with their ki blasts in a flight race.
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I know, bu~t combat speed in dbz is generally faster than thier travel speed, but this isn't a bad example
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You're not getting the point, are you? I'm saying the increases to the travel speed are not what they're supposed to be via the multipliers.
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By how many times exactly? Unless you mean to tell me that DB characters can't fly or run around at MFTL / MFTL+ speeds, which would be beyond absurd.
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What the hell does it matter for? All the "anti-feats" you pointed out get whacked out by the immediate showings of characters flying and punching each other in a rush, evading and outpacing ki blasts and even other parts where travelling circles around the planet is involved.
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Literally only one character circles around the planet in a decent timeframe and that is one of the top tiers of the original manga. Sorry but I'm not going to ignore important plot elements based on absurd multiplier stacking.
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Ah, and you are definitely going to ignore the bijilion instances when the they outpace, outran, evade, block, dodge, blitz each other's blasts. Remember when raditz outran goku's kamehameha? Yeah good times
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Did you miss "Outran"?
GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 5,744
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- Thread starter
- #261
So we're disregarding the consistency for the other attributes... Because one is inconsistent? Also, the 2000x difference is clear exaggeration for the sake of trying to make your point more believable.
Another exaggeration.
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Cool, Goku can't run the Serpend Road at Relativistic+ speeds so we should downgrade him.
Yes one is inconsistent and the other has no feats and just multiplier stacking. And no it's not an exaggeration the difference between 0.7 and 1400 is literally 2000×.
Neither is the second one, the entire fight with Nappa and the deaths of everyone except two in the Dragon Team only happen because Goku couldn't make it on time.
GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 5,744
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- #263
Btw, I'm not assuming Travel Speed = Combat Speed, that's just stupid. They can keep up with ki blast for a short timeframe (which applies to Combat Speed) before they have to dodge.
Also, it's over 10000km.
That's inconsistent with what?
That's inconsistent with what? Also, he was able to reach a saiyan ship moments before the explosion hit.
That's inconsistent with what?
Also, it's over 10000km.
And that's inconsistent with what?
He was following him around, and again, that's inconsistent with what?
Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,198
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There's nothing that is said about the length of Snake Way in the original manga, so that contradicts nothing
Also, you'd downgrade for one low feat, while completely disregarding all other instances of characters outspeeding or keeping up with their own ki blasts
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Goku is faster than roshi's kamehameha, slightly below or equal lpiccolo beam.
Serpent road would be the inconsistency, goku also was supposed to be faster than lightning after his popo training, also remember, he also out dodged one of piccolo beam in the 23rd budokai, yet he failed to cross the serpent road.
It's an outlier, it exist in a lot of fictions, outlier doesn't just mean prefemimg feat way above your weight class, it's also performing a feat wal below your weight class.
Or how about when they consistently blitz each other, or raditz dodging piccolos special beam canon [albeit barely] and outrunning the kamehameha.
All of these consistent feat vs one huge ass outlier that doesn't make sense
And we are obviously going to pick the outlier one ammirte
GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 5,744
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- Thread starter
- #266
1) He can't fly at Relativistic+ speeds.
2) He got tired mid-way and started running.
There is consistency, the kaioken multiplier has been hammered down countless times as a literal multiplier in-canon.
Again, why would we not apply a multiplier of a technique stated and shown to be mostly used for combat and use non-combat and plot-convenient "anti-feats" to disregard it completely?
GodlyCharmander
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- #267
This seems to be more of a case of the Travel Speed itself being an inconsistent attribute in the verse.
Take the multipliers out of the occasion, and... Oh, it's still inconsistent, and the multipliers are not the cause for this whatsoever?
That's crazy!
Yeah, the travel speed argument is not relevant to the multiplier debate whatsoever.
Take the multipliers out of the occasion, and... Oh, it's still inconsistent, and the multipliers are not the cause for this whatsoever?
That's crazy!
Yeah, the travel speed argument is not relevant to the multiplier debate whatsoever.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Also, Huzy, stop derailing the thread with unrelated discussion about outliers
GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 5,744
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- #269
@Huzy One thing. Elaborate your points. You just stated a shit ton of travel speed "anti-feats" and did not elaborate how they contradict each other whatsoever
Actually, it was two things.
Multipliers are currently accepted either you like it or not. If you want to remove them, bro, go make a CRT, this is not the thread for you little rant about multipliers being used for a featless series that needs it to have any sort of basis. I will fight you there, not here. Now excuse yourself, please.
Actually, it was two things.
Multipliers are currently accepted either you like it or not. If you want to remove them, bro, go make a CRT, this is not the thread for you little rant about multipliers being used for a featless series that needs it to have any sort of basis. I will fight you there, not here. Now excuse yourself, please.
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My response was with the combat speed = travel speed but some of these still work.
That's in reply to combat speed = travel speed so nothing inconsistent here.
That's inconsistent with the multipliers, remember 2000× increase, Goku's speed in the Saiyan Saga is Mach 22 if my calculations are correct so he should be crossing 15 million meters in a second and not just barely making it.
Again inconsistent with the multipliers. This feat wouldn't be considered impossible with super speed if Goku was capable of such speeds.
This is in response to the combat speed thing.
Inconsistent with multipliers. Gotenks finished his thing in a few seconds and then took a nap and unless Piccolo travelled the same distance as Gotenks instead of simply going to where he was, he should still have a speed of mach 44000 and not whatever he has in the scene.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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That discussion is irrelevant to here
If you want to discuss these things, make a CRT for it. Here is not the place to discuss it
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If you're gonna exclaim "outlier!" back it up with feats.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Still irrelevant to the discussion. Stop derailing this thread with subjects that don't matter to the discussion
GodlyCharmander
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- #274
Make a CRT so I can refute these there, stop derailing
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This is again with the travel speed = combat speed argument. And secondly, please read, I said Goku couldn't run the road not fly across the road.
Countless is an exaggeration but as far as I'm aware multipliers are disregarded if they're not consistent with showings regardless of the legitimacy of the statements.
Please elaborate how it's inconsistent if we take out the multipliers.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Again, this is irrelevant to this discussion. Stop spamming this thread with derailment
GodlyCharmander
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- #277
Ignore him from now on.
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I'm not going to discuss this any further but I'm not sure why Dragon Ball is being given such leniency, this wiki's multipliers page says that evidence becomes increasingly necessary the higher the difference between the multipliers and feat is but in Dragon Ball's case where the difference is 2000× there is apparently 0 evidence required.
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We had a CRT for Dragon Ball multipliers being concrete as they can be, that's why.
Now drop it, we're discussing multipliers here, and if you still think Goku and co. can't fly at Relativistic, FTL or MFTL speed despite there being countless pieces of evidence of them outrunning and outpacing ki blasts and punching and kicking each other while in mid-flight, make a separate CRT for it.
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This again? Are we really using flight speed as an excuse to downplay combat speeds again?
Anyway, their flight speeds are really only comparable to combat speed and attack speed in short bursts; their long term flight speed is typically much slower than their combat speeds. But their combat speed and short burst flight speed, is typically comparable if not superior to their ki blast attack speeds. Piccolo's feat is very blatant and they've only gotten superior. All "Anti-feats" are only for flight speed and not combat speed, and others are just typical, "Dragon Ball characters goof around all the time."
Anyway, the difference is that Kaioken multipliers are 100% in our faces and it's literally explained in every source that it multiplies AP, Speed, and Durability linearly. Frieza's Death Beams also have their own FTL statements in the Kaizenshuu which Goku struggled against a toying Frieza in base but literally casually plays with a serious Frieza in SSJ form. So the gaps are very blatant, not to mention, there's still a bunch of obvious gaps even outside of multipliers that we didn't even taken into account. So if anything, the multipliers alone are a lowball.
Anyway, their flight speeds are really only comparable to combat speed and attack speed in short bursts; their long term flight speed is typically much slower than their combat speeds. But their combat speed and short burst flight speed, is typically comparable if not superior to their ki blast attack speeds. Piccolo's feat is very blatant and they've only gotten superior. All "Anti-feats" are only for flight speed and not combat speed, and others are just typical, "Dragon Ball characters goof around all the time."
Anyway, the difference is that Kaioken multipliers are 100% in our faces and it's literally explained in every source that it multiplies AP, Speed, and Durability linearly. Frieza's Death Beams also have their own FTL statements in the Kaizenshuu which Goku struggled against a toying Frieza in base but literally casually plays with a serious Frieza in SSJ form. So the gaps are very blatant, not to mention, there's still a bunch of obvious gaps even outside of multipliers that we didn't even taken into account. So if anything, the multipliers alone are a lowball.
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