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Let's go over MFTL+ Dragon Ball Z

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AKM sama said:
And I have already explained why I disagree with the current state of profiles plenty of times. The higher the multiplier, the greater is the burden of proof. Going from 0.7c to 3c based on multipliers, sure. No big deal. Small jump, believable, doesn't require extraordinary evidence. From there to 30c, okay. A bit bigger jump but can be explained with the constant rise in power level. To 90c, also fine, no biggie.

But when you claim that your character is 500c or something from a 0.7c feat, that is a massive jump and your burden of proof increases with it proportionally. With no feat coming close to this level in the show, and the next best feat is 0.7c, you can't really claim that your character is 500c based on multiplier stacking alone. That's not enough backing.
Click to expand...
I'll have to disagree on the first paragraph.
Going from 0.7 to 90c solely via multipliers is already extreme, it's 128x difference which is huge.

Someone with authority should address this "Multiplier stacking" already.
 
Yeah, the other side of Namek thing would only be Sub-Relativistic at best, and anime timeframe would make it a lot slower. Though, it only be a low end feat for flight speed not combat speed.

As for the current scaling chain, it's really not hypothetical if it's common sense. Goku even with Kaioken x4 was something not overwhelmingly stronger or faster than Vegeta compared to how he faired against the Ginyu Force, so even AKM agrees that 0.7455c to 2.982c is fine. Goku did use Kaioken x2 against Ginyu and went from being inferior to being superior, and noted it was nothing compared to what he was capable of. And we know that there's no reason not to assume he was capable of Kaioken x4. It's okay if you do not want to compare Frieza to Kaioken Goku, but it should be noted that 5-B to High 5-A is a giant gap in itself; if he's that much stronger, then he's clearly can't be slower. But even without comparing 1st form Frieza, Goku still is like very confident that even with his full power, he'd be nothing compared to his 2nd or 3rd form. Giving the impression that it would scale to those forms anyway and then to his post zenkai who is superior to his 3rd form. Then of course, there's Kaioken x10, x20, and SSJ. As well as 100% Frieza. Even without the alleged hypothetical of Goku still being inferior to 1st form Frieza without Kaioken, it would still leave SSJ Goku and 100% Frieza at Massively FTL. At 149.1c and 119.28c. The 90c thing simply does not exist.

It can already be seen here, we can remove the Ginyu saga hypothetical and it would only downgrade base, Kaioken x10 and x20 Goku at worst to FTL+. SSJ and 100% Frieza would still be Massively FTL.
 
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AKM sama said:
A lot of strawman there.

I never said to discard all the multipliers. I never said I didn't like multipliers.
Click to expand...

the_smurfs_1.jpg

I did! I said that!
 
RisingIons said:
Transmitting messages = transmitting data
Reading ki = transmitting data

Same machine different application. Both near-instant.
Click to expand...
You realize that real life transmitters can easily debunk that my dude. My phone can’t send pictures as quickly as it sends texts, and it can’t load videos as quickly as it loads a wiki article.
 
The Scouter examples have been discussed; we are not using those to justify speeds.
 
AKM sama said:
Read this.
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I've already explained that the Frieza which tried to plunge his hand into Vegeta's neck and the Frieza Goku fought had 2 different power level's. We are not applying that speed calc to Casual Frieza. Only the serious one. And therefore it's not a calc stack.
 
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AKM sama said:
As for the main topic of this thread, it was already discussed and rejected. No official details about this hypothetical Goku are known
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No official details other than his own statement, of course.
AKM sama said:
we don't know how well this hypothetical Goku would have fared against Freeza and whether he would still be weaker than his base form after zenkai.
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I'm sorry, what are you talking about? Also, I see you use Freeza, big respecc
But we're not talking about a Hypothetical Goku, and how he matches up to Freeza is rather irrelevant.
AKM sama said:
We only use kaioken numbers and power levels on things that have been shown. As such, it's best to not use it in the scaling chain.
Click to expand...
What? That's very unfair, Goku flat out states he can use Kaioken x10, it's a very clear exposition line, and he outscales his own version who can use x4, and even theorized he could use x5. Assuming he is only capable of what his 10x weaker version was is simply not how scaling should work.
 
About the multiplier thing.

Kaioken is already accepted as a multiplier. So the "even when he says he can use up to 10x, he only showed 2x" argument feels like it's only done with Dragon Ball. And it's unfair with the plot, Pré-Zenkai Goku was never once put in a situation where Kaioken x3~10 was even needed.

If a character in a verse with accepted multiplier states he can use "Technique X" which doubles his speed and power, but gets killed before he can get a chance to use it, will he multiplier simply not be added to his profile? Because that's just going against the show's clear intentions for the sake of it.
 
GodlyCharmander said:
Because that's just going against the show's clear intentions for the sake of it.
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That's a funny statement because a lot of Dragon Ball Z/Super CRT's don't go in (like the high scaling chains) because quote "I don't think the author intended this". Oh how the turns have tabled.
 
Okay, this is getting stupid. "Goku was only assuming he was capable of using Kaioken x10"
If you want to ignore his clear statement in something he has near-absolute authority in, FINE.

It was also stated in the Daizenshuu.

"地球の100
倍もの重力で
修行し過去のサイヤ人の
限界を打破。界王拳も10
倍まで耐えられるように。"

"Train with 100 times the gravity of the earth and break through the limits of the Saiyans of the past. Kaiouken can withstand up to 10 times."

Is this enough for y'all?
It's such a simple matter.
 
Like, even if you assume Goku can do kaioken x10, where do you factor it into the scaling chain? We don't know how he would have fared against Freeza and we don't calculate hypothetical power levels that we are never given details of directly.
 
AKM sama said:
Like, even if you assume Goku can do kaioken x10, where do you factor it into the scaling chain? We don't know how he would have fared against Freeza and we don't calculate hypothetical power levels that we are never given details of directly.
Click to expand...
I think it says that Goku is stronger than when he had his Kaioken forms in base. So I think he is using that as a feat.
 
AKM sama said:
Like, even if you assume Goku can do kaioken x10,
Click to expand...
It's not an assumption. This is as solid as you can get. (other than actually showing it, but plot exists)
AKM sama said:
where do you factor it into the scaling chain? We don't know how he would have fared against Freeza and we don't calculate hypothetical power levels that we are never given details of directly.
Click to expand...
This has nothing to do with Freeza. He'd have a power level of 900,000 with Kaioken 10x, Post-Zenkai has a power level of 3.000.000, he should scale. Simple.

Pré-Zenkai Goku = 2,98c

Pré-Zenaki Goku Kaioken x10 = 29,8c

Post-Zenkai Goku = >29,8c

Post-Zenkai Goku Kaioken x20 = 596c

Super Saiyan Goku = 1490c

Freeza does not affect the chain once.
 
AKM sama said:
Like, even if you assume Goku can do kaioken x10, where do you factor it into the scaling chain? We don't know how he would have fared against Freeza and we don't calculate hypothetical power levels that we are never given details of directly.
Click to expand...
Why are we assuming when we have TWO CLEAR cut statement about goku's ability to go to KK10
 
[That unless you want to say that goku us lying, or overstamaming himself. And we know goku is a terrible lier]
 
Is this thread only about OP's multipliers? Or can other MFTL+ DBZ discussion be here? I'd like to know if my previous post's feat is usable or unusable.
 
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