Lethal Company Discussion

[Iridant]

Does anyone know how one might go about doing calcs for the Old Birds AP? I have tried to do a little bit of it myself, but my results seem to be either very low or very high depending on the method. Here are the outlines of the strategies I used.

Method 1

1. Get a picture of an Old Bird with a fired rocket and full height visible. I used the picture of it on the Fandom wiki for this.
2. Get height in pixels of the Old Bird and use the canon height of 19 feet to get a inches per pixel ratio.
3. Pixel scale parts of the rocket and calculate volume by assuming it is a cylinder with a truncated cone on top.
4. Convert cubic inches to cubic meters.
5. Assume the rocket is made of steel, as I do not know what one might expect it to be made out of and it looks vaguely like it could be metal, and use that to get a mass.
6. Get 2 frames of an Old Bird firing rockets.
7. Layer the images on top of each other and compare the distance the rocket moved in pixels.
8. Calculate inches per pixel by using the Old Bird in the second frame as reference.
9. Use the pixel distance to get distance and multiply it by 60 to get meters per second. I had the video set to 720p60, so it would have been 60 frames per second I think.
10. With the mass and velocity known, use the KE formula of KE = 9.5 * m * v^2.

Method 2

1. Get a frame of an Old Bird rocket exploding with an Old Bird's full height in frame.
2. Pixel scale the Bird to get inches per pixel, once again using 19 feet as canon height.
3. Measure radius in pixels, then convert to inches, then meters. I think the issue I have is here, as I don't know where the radius is supposed to end. When the animation for the explosion plays, the blast moves outwards then disappears and I don't know which moment in this animation is the right place to get the radius.
4. Use this formula for calculating explosion damage that is against ground.
   W = P^3 * ((27136 * 1.37895+8649)^(1/2)/13568-93/13568)^2

For further context, the images in Method 1 Step 6 and Method 2 Step 1 all came from this video. The former came from 0:55 in the video while the latter came from 0:56 in the video.

On a different note, CRTs need to be done at some point due to the V50 update. Forest Keepers need to have their durability downgraded since they can be killed with shovels now. They also may need a weakness to fire since they get set on fire by Old Birds while players do not.

 

[AThe1412]

On a different note, CRTs need to be done at some point due to the V50 update. Forest Keepers need to have their durability downgraded since they can be killed with shovels now. They also may need a weakness to fire since they get set on fire by Old Birds while players do not.

It takes from at least 19 to at most 38 hits to kill them though. Would you say that a tree only has 9-C durability if you can cut it down with an axe except you have to swing the axe dozens of times to achieve that result? Players are burned by fire. One of the Old Bird's kill animation is it grabbing the Player then blasting them with a flamethrower (The same one it uses to kill Forest Keepers) which kills them in less than a second.

 

[Iridant]

It takes from at least 19 to at most 38 hits to kill them though. Would you say that a tree only has 9-C durability if you can cut it down with an axe except you have to swing the axe dozens of times to achieve that result? Players are burned by fire. One of the Old Bird's kill animation is it grabbing the Player then blasting them with a flamethrower (The same one it uses to kill Forest Keepers) which kills them in less than a second.

At the very least, the description of the Durability should be changed so it doesn't say they're immune to employee weaponry.

 

[Keeweed]

It takes from at least 19 to at most 38 hits to kill them though. Would you say that a tree only has 9-C durability if you can cut it down with an axe except you have to swing the axe dozens of times to achieve that result? Players are burned by fire. One of the Old Bird's kill animation is it grabbing the Player then blasting them with a flamethrower (The same one it uses to kill Forest Keepers) which kills them in less than a second.

I honestly think for the 9-B tier the old birds are, being able to kill them in 19 hits with a bludgeoning weapon isn’t that bad. I think the large majority of boss fights in games usually take over 10 hits. It’s not like it’s hundreds and not supposed to happen, they were specifically changed to not be invincible like a few of the enemies used to be. Granted I do think the scaling is now very inconsistent with what the employees can and can’t harm and survive. They can survive the old birds explosions, but the old birds one punch you. And you can harm them and specifically they were changed to not be invincible to you, but they don’t kill themself with their own hits which kill you. I guess either finally calculating the highest fall the player can survive or the old bird’s bomb would be the best bets for the players. If that’s all okay to muse about.

 

[King_Dom470]

Are old birds some new creature added to the game? I havent played Lethal Company in a while

 

[Keeweed]

Yeah they are giant (relatively speaking, like forest giant sized) mechs that shot missiles at the player.

 

[Keeweed]

Okay so checking into it, old birds are invincible to you, but them falling from the sky onto you actually doesn’t kill you (2:03) like I thought and forest keepers are still changed to not be invincible. So the employee can: survive explosions from the old bird, survive the old bird smashing onto them, can slowly beat to death forest giants and eyeless dogs. Not sure if that’s enough for the employees to be 9-B or if it should just be better support and likely a higher 9-C tier, just pointing out some stuff about the old birds I learnt.

 

[Iridant]

Okay so checking into it, old birds are invincible to you, but them falling from the sky onto you actually doesn’t kill you (2:03) like I thought and forest keepers are still changed to not be invincible. So the employee can: survive explosions from the old bird, survive the old bird smashing onto them, can slowly beat to death forest giants and eyeless dogs. Not sure if that’s enough for the employees to be 9-B or if it should just be better support and likely a higher 9-C tier, just pointing out some stuff about the old birds I learnt.

I think the Old Bird explosions have a bigger radius than the mine explosions, so it doesn't make sense for them to survive a rocket but die to a mine.

 

[Keeweed]

We would need to do that math on that because I always saw the old bird explosions as being pretty small but if they are larger than the mine that would be interesting. I don’t pixel scale but I will check later for a rough estimate.

 

[Iridant]

We would need to do that math on that because I always saw the old bird explosions as being pretty small but if they are larger than the mine that would be interesting. I don’t pixel scale but I will check later for a rough estimate.

I did some pixel scaling here. I don't know when I was supposed to stop measuring the radius so I did one line for the first circular radius (the edge of the first yellow circle) and one for the last one (edge of the orange circle that surrounds explosion).

green: 128 px
yellow: 359.2 px
total: 487.2 px

Old Bird canon height is 19 feet or 228 inches according to the bestiary entry.
228 inches / 487.2 pixels = 0.46798029556 inches per pixel

outermost radius
red: 466 px or 218.078817731 inches
5.539201970367399 meters


W = R^3 * ((27136 * 1.37895+8649)^(1/2)/13568-93/13568)^2
W = 5.539201970367399^3 * ((27136 * 1.37895+8649)^(1/2)/13568-93/13568)^2
W = 0.01365925828 tons of TNT

innermost radius
pink: 122 pixels or 57.0935960583 inches
1.45017733988082 meters

W = 1.45017733988082^3 * ((27136 * 1.37895+8649)^(1/2)/13568-93/13568)^2
0.00024510313 tons of TNT

The innermost radius is probably the more correct one and might be able to be used since it's about 46% of the energy in the landmine calc, so surviving this and dying to a landmine is still reasonable.

 

[Keeweed]

If I remember landmines specifically do 100 damage so dead on the players max health. So the old bird bomb doing 30 damage actually lines up surprisingly well. I mean that not really in a versus battles sensejust funny how that lines up.

Cool though that they have a straight up calculated 9-B feat now. Also I think the inner circle just makes more sense anyways. I think the outer end is just the brightness / light of the expansion.

 

[Iridant]

If I remember landmines specifically do 100 damage so dead on the players max health. So the old bird bomb doing 30 damage actually lines up surprisingly well. I mean that not really in a versus battles sensejust funny how that lines up.

Cool though that they have a straight up calculated 9-B feat now. Also I think the inner circle just makes more sense anyways. I think the outer end is just the brightness / light of the expansion.

Old Birds would be 9-B even without the calc, as they can damage Forest Keepers. This is really just additional evidence, as well as a concrete durability value for anything that can survive the Old Bird rocket. That includes the following:

• Old Bird
• Forest Keeper
• Eyeless Dog
• Earth Leviathan
• Mask
• Baboon Hawk

 

[Keeweed]

Ooh definitely for old birds and stuff, I was just wondering on if it would make sense for the player in particular. I wish I was actually good at pixel scaling to because I hate leaving the old bird crashing onto the player and dashing into them to other people (I imagine those two would be nice support).

 

[King_Dom470]

Old Birds would be 9-B even without the calc, as they can damage Forest Keepers. This is really just additional evidence, as well as a concrete durability value for anything that can survive the Old Bird rocket. That includes the following:

• Old Bird
• Forest Keeper
• Eyeless Dog
• Earth Leviathan
• Mask
• Baboon Hawk

So this sorta just upgrades the entire verse to 9-B?

 

[Keeweed]

If it scales to the player most the verse. Though some creatures like the worm guys (who’s name escapes me) wouldn’t scale as they kill through suffocation and have weak bodies.

 

[Iridant]

So this sorta just upgrades the entire verse to 9-B?

Oh yeah. The player would be 9-B and so would almost everything else. Snare Flea and anything else that does very little damage (Tulip Snake maybe) could be a lower tier.

 

[Iridant]

I guess I'll give the calc a priority of 1 when submitting it for evaluation. I need to make the blog post first though.

EDIT: Calc is posted now. It may take a bit before it gets evaluated but it's progress.

 

[Arceus0x]

I guess I'll give the calc a priority of 1 when submitting it for evaluation. I need to make the blog post first though.

EDIT: Calc is posted now. It may take a bit before it gets evaluated but it's progress.

can you link it here?

 

[Arceus0x]

Additionally I've been thinking the Old Birds should be either athletic human speed or higher normally, idk how much with missiles so y'all can decide, and At least Hypersonic+ with flight speed since they can cross interplanetary distances.

 

[Iridant]

can you link it here?

Here it is.

 

[King_Dom470]

Hear me out here.

Kitchen knives apparently spill blood even if you hit an invincible entity, which means there's enough notable damage being done to spill a ton of blood, and you could keep doing this for awhile. So could that be justification for Immortality Type 2 for invincible entities? Given they don't die despite losing a shit load of blood

 

[AThe1412]

Hear me out here.

Kitchen knives apparently spill blood even if you hit an invincible entity, which means there's enough notable damage being done to spill a ton of blood, and you could keep doing this for awhile. So could that be justification for Immortality Type 2 for invincible entities? Given they don't die despite losing a shit load of blood

It's obviously game mechanics. You can do this to Circuit Bees even though they shouldn't be able to produce that much blood. Coil Heads and Old Birds are machines so they don't even have blood to begin with.

 

[King_Dom470]

It's obviously game mechanics. You can do this to Circuit Bees even though they shouldn't be able to produce that much blood. Coil Heads and Old Birds are machines so they don't even have blood to begin with.

Oh I didn’t know it worked on old birds and bees.

I thought with coil heads there was still technically a chance that they were actually a living thing given it’s not a confirmed machine

 

[Iridant]

Additionally I've been thinking the Old Birds should be either athletic human speed or higher normally, idk how much with missiles so y'all can decide, and At least Hypersonic+ with flight speed since they can cross interplanetary distances.

I did another pixel scaling calc for the Old Birds and got a result that the rockets move at apple 8.8 meters per second, which is Athletic Human. Once again, image in imgur link and math below.

green: 78 px
yellow: 99.2 px
orange: 193.8 px
total: 371 px
inches per pixel = 228 inches / 371 pixels = 0.61455525606 inches per pixel

distance between the centers of the 2 pink lines is 9.4 pixels or 5.77681940701 inches
this distance was moved in one frame, which is 1/60 of a second since I took the frames with the video set to 720p60.
5.77681940701 inches per 1/60 of a second * 60 frames = 346.60916442000001 inches per second or 8.803872776268 meters per second

Unfortunately the two frames have camera movement between them so it's less likely to be accurate, but it at least provides an estimate that should be close to the real speed. This was originally intended to be part of a KE calc for the rockets, in which the volume of the rockets themselves were calculated and then used in the KE formula alongside the speed, but I didn't want to use it in favor of the explosion calc since the damage comes from the explosion anyways.