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Legion (red Dwarf) Abstract and nonexistence downgrade

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Well, I still do not at all agree that any incorporeal consciousness should be considered as the same thing as metaphysical aspects of reality. It is mixing entirely different concepts too far. In addition, again, the former is already covered by Non-Corporeal physiology.
 
It seems like the trolling and stupidity here is thinking that actual abstractions shouldn't be given abstract existence. Might be reasonable (if not highly unnecessary) to make another level of abstract existence for higher order concepts, such as platonic ones (even if that is a strange rabbit hole present in the wiki in itself) but another page seems ridiculous. If you make a page for abstractions then you should be prepared to let characters who are, by definition, abstractions/concepts be applicable to this. It seems really weird to decide "Nuh, abstractions just have to be rly strong now to get this power" when the power itself isn't based around being so strong, just being an abstraction.


@Antoniofer I agree with you that peeps should stop hecking saying "embodying" when referring to type 1 concepts Also no, the NEP is under specific conditions that for some reason everybody thinks comes with the package of refuting abstract existence. There hasn't been a single argument about why it shouldn't be allowed. The character's existence is defined by the concept of "consciousness" and "personality" of those on his ship, he has said himself he "ceases to exist" and is literally "nothing" whilst there are no consciousness on his ship. However he is still a definable entity/"essence", just one without noticeable presence or intelligence. I've said this multiple times but everybody appears to be ignoring me ,so :/
 
@Planck The indication would be a short description you would write on the power section explaining what kind of thing the character is getting AE from, like you are supposed to.

If clarifying the potency or exact nature of the power is the problem, then that is a simple solution that doesn't need us to create another 100 subtypes to an ability that is clearly varied by nature
 
How about this? Type 1 would be Type 1, 2 and 3 concepts as defined by the Conceptual Manipulation page i.e. the universal, reality-governing concepts. Type 2 would be the Type 4 concepts and other similar states (being an idea, thought etc). Type 3 would be the current Type 2.
 
Anyway, I have to take a break and go for a walk.
 
At the very least we need to separate the ability into different types and avoid what is already covered by Non-Corporeal physiology.

We should also wait for further staff input. So far, me Antoniofer and Elizhaa are against this, whereas only Andy is for.
 
@Plank

Being an Universe-wide concepts doesn't make you any more abtract, it only means you have Omnipresence, and being Reality Governing doesn't mean anything either as the concept of dreams isn't less abtract than the concept of plants
 
We don't need to introduce new types. Simply state in the profile what kind of abstraction the character is. We have explanations for a reasons.

Also mixing the types with our current Type 2 would just be messy and confusing.
 
Overlord775 said:
@Plank
Being an Universe-wide concepts doesn't make you any more abtract, it only means you have Omnipresence, and being Reality Governing doesn't mean anything either as the concept of dreams isn't less abtract than the concept of plants
Click to expand...
My main point in distinguishing them like that is that local abstractions like dreams, thoughts etc. can be affected by a lot less than concept-hax and a distinction should at least be made between them and abstractions that outright need control over more metaphysical aspects of reality to affect.
 
I believe thoughts or ideas, without extra contexts, are Non-Qualifying Concepts. if there are extra contexts, they are Type 4 or higher concepts, they should get Abstract Existence.

But the ability isn't "concept embodiement", it's abstract existence. Why should we only give it to characters who embody concepts detailed under our standards, when abstraction refer to much wider things?
 
Ok, this is the thing, one can embody everything from french fries to God's knowledge, but being an embodiment doesn't make you abstract, not necessary, as embody = physical construct of something, and if I undestand this good an abstract can only exist in a metaphysical place like the mind, then that type of embodiment can't have abstract existance.

However, embodiment also means that is represent something, then that do not contradict being an abstract, as one can represent something while being in the metaphysical place. Now, this Legion mentioned in OP doesn't have a physical form and only remain in a collective consciousness? Then is fine as an abstract being, it represent the conciousness of several people? Also can be an embodiment.
 
Personally, I'd be fine with abstract existence being given to characters who embody things like Laws, Mathematical Equations, and the like. Not just psychic hive minds.
 
Planck69 said:
My main point in distinguishing them like that is that local abstractions like dreams, thoughts etc. can be affected by a lot less than concept-hax and a distinction should at least be made between them and abstractions that outright need control over more metaphysical aspects of reality to affect.
Click to expand...
Except said concept can be affected too with the right hax and range, exemples being:

Embodiment of Darkness ----> Darkness Manipulation

Embodiment of Space ----> Space Manipulation

Embodiment of Heat ----> Heat Manipulation

@Zachary

Legion isn't really just a psychic hive mind tho
 
Reading through the thread, I think Zachary and Planck make sense. Conceptual stuff isn't quite my specialty as I'm not Ultima Reality or Sera. However, I do know that those types of things are stuff we really need to be extra careful when applying.
 
Zach's the only one that has been saying he's a psychic hivemind. His only argument was that one of his descriptions was "consciousness", that structure being far more abstract by nature then he seems to accept
 
To be honest people uses the word abstract so much for everything that I no longer knows what it means... but if simply being a disembodied consciousness is not enough to be "abstract", then better remove it. Also, remove the NEP if the only reason it have it is due not having a body, as that is just Non-Corporeal.
 
T h a t I s n ' t t h e o n l y r e a s o n.

He said he would not exist whilst similarly being a definable entity, this allows him to be non-existent. This is like, perfect evidence of such a power.


Abstract is something that only exists in an idea form, not a solid idea or system in itself. In Red Dwarf the "consciousness" is a gestalt term for multiple different functions. Robots and sentient holograms counted as being "conscious" to Legion, these being things not possessing minds or souls. In fact with holograms a lot of effort in the books and the recent special is made to point out that they are simply a program that responds to different things deterministically following a system. Therefore the word "conscious" isn't a soul or mind but an idea/concept that can only be made gestalt as an idea/concept. Furthermore the idea of a "disembodied consciousness/hivemind" doesn't work here since the people on his ship are possessing the exact same functionality they previously demonstrated. They are not controlled by Legion merely being a "thing" that links them together and gives them instructions as a hivemind would; neither are their consciousnesses disembodied and amalgamated together. Legion is just a representation of their combined personality and is therefore a (specific) type 3 concept.
 
Antoniofer said:
To be honest people uses the word abstract so much for everything that I no longer knows what it means... but if simply being a disembodied consciousness is not enough to be "abstract", then better remove it. Also, remove the NEP if the only reason it have it is due not having a body, as that is just Non-Corporeal.
Click to expand...
Exactly. I much prefer if we keep this ability distinctive and easy to understand without muddling things up by including characters that are already covered by Non-Corporeal existence.

Anyway, the overall staff conclusion here seems to be that we should keep the Abstract Existence page as it is, but not accept this particular case.
 
In middle of a lockdown?

I live in Sweden. We don't have a lockdown.
 
Antvasima said:
Personally, I think that the misunderstanding might come from that somebody wrote "Abstract Existence is the ability to embody an abstraction, such as a concept, thought, or an information" instead of "Abstract Existence is the ability to embody an abstraction, such as a concept or idea" in order to keep the ability easy to understand. That should probably be adjusted.
Click to expand...
Here is what I originally suggested for reference.
 
@Zachary

I think so, yes. I will give you temporary editing rights. Tell me here when you are done.
 
I'm actually going to cry. People keep agreeing because Zach keeps saying its the same thing, which it isn't. It doesn't follow the standard idea of a psychic consciousness. It doesn't revolve around being a collection of disembodied consciousnesses because their bodies still possess a soul if they ever did in the first place, and they aren't connected to Legion at all in the slightest. He doesn't control their "minds" or "souls". In no idea of a hivemind does Legion exist, therefore Zach's interpretation is wrong. What he actually is, is the "embodiment" ,as you keep putting it Ant, of consciousness. Further along this idea "consciousness" isn't something that exists in Red Dwarf as a single construct. Instead a culmination of neurological/ programmable functions. However, he is something resembling a single construct along those lines, and therefore an idea/ concept that isn't actually something in reality.
 
About the Abstract Existence debate, wouldn't an abstraction being of universal scale simply mean it should also have Large Size rather than be a different Type of AE? Adding another AE type seems unnecessary to me either way.
 
@Zachary

Thank you.

@Other staff members

Is it fine if we close this thread now?
 
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